/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

Seems about right, things got really messy after 1991

>>2444732
The Soviet Union armed the Zionist entity in its first war against the Palestinians thoughbeit

>>2444775
This. Also, we‘ve seen nothing new actually. Everything we see today is the same barbarism by the West as we’ve seen when the USSR was around. Only the weapons changed.

>>2444786
>>2444775
It's true, but it's worse now. The Soviet supported socialist Arab states and the Palestinian cause (in later years).

>>2444775
>The Soviet Union armed the Zionist entity in its first war against the Palestinians thoughbeit
Yes, a few old weapons from Czechoslovakia are equal to France proliferating nuclear weapons and the USA's unending supply of everything from fighter jets to M16s to Israel.
>>2444788
>The Soviet supported socialist Arab states and the Palestinian cause (in later years).
But you see, that doesn't matter. All that matters is the narrative that Israel's atrocities are in fact more "crimes of Communism".

>>2444805
>Yes, a few old weapons from Czechoslovakia
That's a ridiculous understatement. The USSR basically built the Egyptian and Syrian armies from the ground up, and provided them with quite a bit of state of the art equipment. Soviet SAMs in Egyptian service during the Yom Kippur War practically grounded the Israeli air force and nearly resulted in a crushing Israeli defeat.

>>2444732
yeah, brezhnev made zionists afraid. what's happening in palestine is nothing new though.

>>2444805
>But you see, that doesn't matter. All that matters is the narrative that Israel's atrocities are in fact more "crimes of Communism".
The people usually harping on Stalin's support for Israel here are ultras who hate Arab nationalism because of their line on natlib and because Arab nationalists were class collaborationists who purged the Arab Communist parties. Which is fair enough on the latter count, even the Soviets themselves considered Arab nationalist fascist for a long time. But it's a bit retarded to screech about purges of ML parties when you don't even consider ML authentic socialism.

>>2444811
The Israelis also tangled with Soviet fighter pilots during the War on Attrition:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Rimon_20

Stalin's preceding position and actions during 1948 are a bit squirrely. It has been awhile since I read his book on the National Question but there was a funny thing where Jews didn't constitute a nation in his criticism of the Bundists, although the Bundists weren't Zionists exactly. But the Soviets did play an important role in the partition. The Soviets didn't support Israel with direct military aid, it was Czechoslovakia, although the Soviets knew what was going on. One thing to keep in mind is that Czechoslovakia sold weapons to make money and also took tenders from the Arabs but ended up going with Israel. That said, from what I read, the general consensus among Soviet-aligned parties in '48 was pro-Israel except for Arab communist parties for which Gromyko's decision to support partition at the U.N. was disastrous.

>>2445052
>Stalin's preceding position and actions during 1948 are a bit squirrely.
Honestly it seems to make perfect sense in context from a realpolitik perspective. Nobody knew at the time that Israel would morph into this disgusting offspring of the worst tendencies of American imperialism and settlerism. The Nakba was a humanitarian catastrophe of course but the sad truth is that states never really give much of a shit about stuff like that. What the Soviets saw was a new state with a lot of socialist leanings which as of yet hadn't declared for either side in the Cold War, and which was fighting states and rulers closely linked to the British Empire (Hashemites etc). In that context it's not hard to see why they would have attempted to court Israel as an ally.

>>2444775
Can we stop spreading this lie?
Czechoslovakia was not part of the Soviet Union. The arms were not delivered on behalf of the SU, Czechoslovakia sold weapons to syrians as well and the guy who signed the deal to Israel was later suspected to have been assassinated by the NKVD

The USSR directly provided military and economic support to the arab anticolonialists in Egypt, Lebanon and Syria

>>2445055
>The Nakba was a humanitarian catastrophe of course but the sad truth is that states never really give much of a shit about stuff like that.
In 1948 too. Look at what had been going on in Europe, and what was happening in India.

>>2445056
czechoslovakia was in the soviet union's sphere of influence and handily saved israel, not to mention that with hefty soviet support in the earliest days of the israeli ethno-nationalist project, itself the logical conclusion to nationalism itself, did nothing but maurderize and split it into nations, which the ussr helped with immensely, we only stand with the workers of the region, not its bourgeoisie, not its "nation"

>>2444775
>this ACKS the tankie
Not only that, but the Soviet Union was the first country to recognise Israel.
>>2444788
Once the Israelis threw their lot with the west, yes.

>>2444805
flaccid tankie damage control, dominated by whataboutisms - as if they're capable of any other argument that doesn't have whataboutisms.

>>2445061
Czechoslovakia only came under communist rule in 1948. I'm not aware of the specific timelines of this vis a vis the war but it seems like it's happening as the country is being brought firmly into the Soviet camp rather than the policy of a fully consolidated socialist state. Keep in mind that arms production was one of Czechoslovakia's main industries too, so selling guns to both sides of a war likely had a purely economic incentive as well.

>>2445061
>czechoslovakia was in the soviet union's sphere of influence
That doesn't mean shit. The claim was "The USSR armed the Zionist entity", which is just categorically untrue. The decision to sell weaponry to israel came from the Czechs themselves and they (allegedly) killed the guy responsible for the sale in 1948.
>handily saved israel
Overestimated reductionist assertion. Ignores the massive amounts of military support that the Soviets did actually directly offer to the arab states themselves

>not to mention that with hefty soviet support in the earliest days of the israeli ethno-nationalist project, itself the logical conclusion to nationalism itself, did nothing but maurderize and split it into nations, which the ussr helped with immensely, we only stand with the workers of the region, not its bourgeoisie, not its "nation"
Not relevant to the point

>>2445065
it was in the soviet's sphere of influence since 1945 is the point, and yes weapons exports were their main industry, since the chaco war i believe, but that is hardly even a good explanation for it, all it makes the czechoslovaks (and certainly the soviets, who would have good reason to know this) is merchants of death

Presented without comment.

>>2445064
>Once the Israelis threw their lot with the west, yes.
I would like to add that these "Arab "socialist" states" are "socialist" by a massive stretch. all of them espoused Pan-Arabism, didn't have any kind of real socialism on the ground, and kept any socialists at home on a very tight leash.

>>2445067
>it was in the soviet's sphere of influence since 1945 is the point
Not really, Soviet influence in Eastern Europe didn't really begin to take the form we think of until later in the 1950s, and it was a gradual process. Keep in mind that it wasn't yet clear exactly what sort of settlement would be reached for a lot of these countries, and the eventual NATO-Warsaw Pact standoff and its associated relationships between the US and USSR with their respective satellites evolved over time. Immediately after the war the Soviets were occupying Eastern Europe and rooting out fascists and their collaborators, but the governments of these countries were not necessarily communist or Soviet aligned. It's during this period where you get stuff like the Soviet proposal for a united, neutral Germany, proposals to Balkanize former Axis countries, bizarre redrawings of European borders (like this bonkers British proposal lmao), etc. The consolidation of Soviet influence and communist power came later when it was clear that the US was going to remain in Western Europe and turn those countries into an anti-Soviet bloc.

>>2445066
>Overestimated reductionist assertion
prove it, without those advanced weapons the arab states would have overran israel easily
>Ignores the massive amounts of military support that the Soviets did actually directly offer to the arab states themselves
when and in what quantity?

>>2445055
Soviets supporting early Israel was a blunder, however it is true that the Brits had bought many arab leaders and the Zionists had turned against Britain during WW2, so the situation was more dubious and not easily read.

>>2445074
>Not really, Soviet influence in Eastern Europe didn't really begin to take the form we think of until later in the 1950s
What kind of delulu ass world do you live in? who do you think you're bullshitting? all the parties in those countries were lined with earmarked Stalinists. Most of them were sitting under Stalin's shadow for the entirety of WW2 before they were flown to take charge after the Krauts were rolled back.

>>2445066
>Overestimated reductionist assertion
East Euro, predominantly Czech military support to Israel was literally clutch. Gave them tanks and an airforce, two things that the Arabs didn't have.

>>2445077
>all the parties in those countries were lined with earmarked Stalinists
You realize that communists didn't come to power in many of those countries until the late 40s right? Again, the Soviets had not yet decided on a long term policy for these states or what to do with them. For some of them it wasn't even clear whether they would still exist in a few years, e.g. the GDR wasn't created until 1949 because nobody knew what was going to be done with Germany. The situation was very much in flux and didn't stabilize until the late 40s and early 50s with the establishment of NATO and then the Warsaw Pact.

>>2445080
Your assertion is even more implicating, since what you're saying - and it's correct - is that the SOVIETS were the ones who were in charge when those firesales of German weapons happened.

>>2445045
>But it's a bit retarded to screech about purges of ML parties when you don't even consider ML authentic socialism.
Who ever said it had to make sense? After all, you're talking about the same people that simped for NATO-backed Islamic clero-fascists in Libya and Syria.

>>2445081
No, I'm saying the opposite. That the Soviets were only just beginning to consolidate their influence over the future Warsaw Pact at this time and that as such the actions of these governments can't be considered simple proxies for Soviet foreign policy.

>>2445082
citation needed

>>2445075
>Prove that my assertion is an assertion
Lmao how about you prove that the Soviet Union was directly responsible for Israeli victory

>when and in what quantity?

<Soviet-Syrian and Soviet-Lebanese secret treaties in 1946 was as follows:

<The Soviet Union agrees to send a sufficient number of military personnel to Syria, comprising military instructors and high-ranking officers, in order to help Syria to build up as rapidly as possible a national army of some strength. (The Soviet Union and Egypt, 1945-55, Rami Ginat, 1993, p. 70. Citing: From Encroachment to Involvement, a Documentary Study of Soviet Policy in the Middle East, 1945-1973. Israel University Press, Yaacov Ro’i, 1974, pp. 29-30) (IMG)

<A secret treaty between the USSR and the Lebanese government based on these [above] clauses, was signed two days later. (The Soviet Union and Egypt, 1945-55, Rami Ginat, 1993, p. 70) (IMG)

<backed Syria and Lebanon during the 1948 War. As material support for the Arab fighters, the Soviet Union and the Czechoslovak People’s Democracy provided weapons whereas Romania supplied the petroleum:

<Some of the Arab League countries have purchased arms from Czechoslovakia; the largest shipments to the Arabs from that country have gone to Syria and Lebanon. Small shipments from the USSR or Balkan ports are also reported to have landed on the Syrian and Lebanese coasts; also, petroleum products are now being shipped to Lebanon by Rumania. (POSSIBLE DEVELOPMENTS FROM THE PALESTINE TRUCE, ORE 38-48, CIA, July 27, 1948, p. 9) (IMG)

<As a result of Soviet military aid, the position of the Arabs improved significantly:

<The armament position of the Arabs has been notably improved by … a $2,035,000 contract for small arms, ammunitions, and other materiel just negotiated by Syria with the Skoda works of Czechoslovakia … and … the reported arrival of Soviet shipments of small arms in Lebanon and Syria. (Book III – Weekly Summary – 3 July 1947 (#55) thru 30 December 1947 (#79), CIA, pp. III-IV) (IMG)

<Note again that in 1946, the USSR formed a military alliance with Lebanon. Well into the 1948 War, the progressive Arab forces were continuing to be furnished with arms by the Soviets. Also, as confirmed by Ra’anan, who had written the RAND Corporation paper, the USSR rejected the Israeli call for the purchase of Soviet arms:

<at the time, negotiations were proceeding in Moscow regarding the possibility of Soviet arms supplies to Israel. This topic led to a meeting, on October 5, 1948, between the Israeli Major-General Yochanan Rattner and General Antonov, representing the Soviet chief of staff, Marshal Vasilevskii. Later in October, Mrs. Meir spoke to Mr. Bakulin of the Middle East Divison of the Soviet Foreign Ministry and submitted a detailed list of requests (including T-34 tanks, fighter planes, artillery, and anti-aircraft guns), stressing the urgency of an answer. However, she never received a reply, and the request was never fulfilled. (International Policy Formation in the USSR: Factional “Debates” during the Zhdanovschina, Gavriel Ra’anan, with a foreword by Robert Conquest, 1983, p. 83) (IMG)

It goes on, you get the picture. Basically the only reason that the arab states had arms at all was because of the Soviet Union.

>>2445077
You have a child's understanding of history