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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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Not reporting is bourgeois


File: 1756581128173.png (570.94 KB, 4800x4584, uFNOB4p.png)

 

This post is just a quick informal thing to kick off discussion, I won't claim to be as informed as I should be and some of my points may be wrong.

>declining birthrates lead to shrinking economic growth and tax revenue+larger proportion of dependents, all due to a shrinking labor force

>birthrate decline (not yet population decline) is happening in most countries outside of Africa, regardless of socioeconomic development, cost of living or culture (incl. religion or "feminism")
>the most likely primary common cause is the simple availability of choice: not needing children as extra labor, more access to birth control/abortion, etc.
>>secondarily, often it is not the case that people don't want children but that they want to have them later in life and want to give their children optimal lives, e.g. being unwilling to raise children until one has a high-paying stable job; this also leads to people having less children overall
>>the chain reaction here is that the higher the standard of living gets, the bigger the opportunity cost of having children when one actually gets to DECIDE whether to have them, as well as a more demanding standard for WHEN one should have them
>the proposed liberal capitalist solutions fail to tackle the problem:
>>paying people to have children needs to cover the opportunity cost of not having them, which is already massive and will continue to increase the more an economy grows, which will eventually become unsustainable for governments
>>roundabout solutions like providing parents with tax cuts, exceptional welfare or a lower retirement age suffer from the same problem
>>even increased immigration will only stop the bleeding temporarily as the global population fails to keep up
>>automation might "cover" the decrease in labor force but at the same societal cost that massive automation will always bring

With all of the above in mind, it seems that capitalism combined with reproductive choice contains the seed of its own decline. Stagnation threatens the system, but growth leads in its own roundabout way back to stagnation.
The capitalists thus only have the option of restricting or steering choice, from banning abortion and contraceptives to the more extreme scenario of forcing women to be broodmares; or alternatively, by an ideology of pro-natalism for the "greater good", requiring many people to act against "rational self-interest".
In practice, however, those options are just forms of reaction, and even when reaction is successful (and it rarely is) all it can ultimately lead to is a repeat of the past, susceptible to the same conditions and contradictions that caused it to crumble once before.
This is a classic problem that manifests in many ways: capitalism needs laborers to be spenders, but progress inevitably requires a decrease in their ability to do so; in this case, by directly cutting the supply of labor.

Unironically, the only solution is socialism.
The only way to change this equation around without making things worse for everyone is by challenging the assumptions of growth and opportunity cost. This can happen in many ways.
If making a living isn't tied to the success of companies which need constant growth to stay competitive, the dependence on constantly increasing birthrates is reduced.
On the other hand, if society can directly contribute to making child rearing easier and less expensive instead of subsidizing the artificial difficulties and costs created by the market, the opportunity cost of having children is also reduced.
And this ties into many other factors. More safety, more education, more stability, they all ease the burden on parents.
But as you can see, it requires real socialism. Can't half-ass it and call it socialism anyway or you'll pay the price. You need real socialist outcomes.

So. Can porky survive this?
71 posts and 22 image replies omitted.

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>>2457686
>the man can flee the consequence of his actions as soon as they happen. Whereas, traditionally, a woman can't for at least 9 months

>>2459197
>>2459208
>Americans have 2 kids on average, which actually means that nobody wants to have more than 2 kids or any kids at all. The world is childfree now, sweat summer child.

>>2459258
Lol what is this asshurt
Are you personally offended by someone bringing up points on this subject

If we stop having kids, who's gonna pay rent?

Having kids so they can wage slave and die on a hit rock is wack. Don't make more slaves for the owner class.

>China’s fertility rate, i.e. the average number of children an woman gives birth to in her lifetime fell to 1.01 last year. In the UN’s comparison, China’s low rate is approaching that of Singapore (0.95), Taiwan (0.86), South Korea (0.73) and Hong Kong (0.73). Many countries with rapidly aging populations still have higher fertility rates than China, including Japan (1.22), Finland (1.29) and Italy (1.21). The global fertility rate fell to 2.25 in 2024 and is expected to reach 2.07 by 2054, i.e. a level below the stable replacement rate (2.1).

China is in the interesting place of being in one of the lowest reproduction rates in the world while the GDP PPP per capita has gone up dramatically over the last ten years, while also enacting a diverse array of pro-natal policies to subsidize child rearing.

Economic development is making it worse, not better.

>>2459551
Holy shit you will die young, wont you?

>>2457354
>Scramble for Africa 2.0 is coming but it will be to take the continents people, not its resources
Im sure people around the world will be thrilled to become more like africa

>>2459566
Machines are smarter than people. Capitalism and technology made it so that individual betterness doesnt matter.

>>2459574
Machines must be maintained and rebuild
Too bad, it does matter

>>2459595
They will be build and maintained by using other machines.

>>2459597
It will be like warhammer

>>2459598
Warhammer is 500 year old cyborg and legions of slaves with a life expectancy of 19

File: 1757395825686.png (30.57 KB, 757x383, nk.png)


>>2467030
South Korea sure fell a long way in 60 years

>the chain reaction here is that the higher the standard of living gets, the bigger the opportunity cost of having children when one actually gets to DECIDE whether to have them, as well as a more demanding standard for WHEN one should have them
This isn't true. Living standards are collapsing across the entire West. People don't have kids because they can't get make enough money to raise them. This is solely the fault of the capitalists who expect everyone to pop out 10 kids while making minimum wage because they are so fucking greedy they refuse to give any opportunities or social advancement for the vast majority.


>be porky
>defund natal care etc
>wtf why are birth rates plummeting?
falling RoP moment

>>2467171
How does that explain Chinese data? And people used to have kids while there were multiple generations of a family living together in long-held farmhouses.

>>2467189
while porky depends on labor this is a good thing, starve them of labor!

>>2467094
That's north Korea

>>2467189
>look at sweden, they have tons of incentives for starting a family
no. that's all in the past. it's also in the process of being further dismantled. the only way Sweden can keep up the number of proles is by importing cheap foreign labor power. with SD in power this is more difficult
our dear leaders have also decided to spend ¼ of the state budget on war, while lowering taxes. this presents a problem since SD wants pro-natalist policies (but only for whites). such policies can't be funded without taxing someone

Rakesh and Pajeet, Jamal and Mahmud will mating press native european wahmen on top of their own wahmen and impregnate all of them with triplets. This will solve le labour shortage.

>>2467158
WHAAAAAAAAATT? IMPOSSSSIBLEE!

>>246721
Noooooo, we must force le porky to build productive forces and them organize le proletariat noooooooo

Thus we need lab-borne babies to raise in state-managed orphanages. Thus the nation will prosper! Vote Communist!

>>2467217
Chinese and Asian people more broadly don't have kids because their education system is so intense that even adults will wake up in a cold sweat and have nightmares about exams. Too much stress from homework.

>>2467321
No. Fuck you trccn. KYS

>>2467323
>education system that gives knowledge instead of feel-good marks is le nightmare
Lol. Lmao

>>2467222
Look at the green line. South Korea went from 6 births per women to .72 between 1960 and 2023. That's what I was most impressed with.

>>2467334
Based korean women. Total koreanoid moid death

>>2467330
It’s mostly rote memorization and standardized test bullshit that doesn’t translate into the real world. There’s a reason China ended standardized tests for kids under 12, suicides were through the roof

>>2467344
>It’s mostly rote memorization and standardized test bullshit that doesn’t translate into the real world
The very fact that Chinese are, in fact, better specialists than Westoids, speaks otherwise, lmao

>>2467344
And nah, China hasn't ended standardized tests. China has outlawed out-of-school schooling, because this shit destroys education and eats kids' time instead of giving them anything useful society-wise (teachers would rather teach for extra tips than at schools)

>>2467324
Why do you hate the high productivity of a growing population under socialist economy

>>2467313
based ultraorthodox Jews
>Generally speaking the more religious and less developed a country is the more kids they have
until recently I've taken this kind of argument at face value. but now I'm starting to suspect that the liberal spiel about "higher QoL -> fewer children" is just a way to try and justify Porky dismantling the welfare state. when workers fail to reproduce themselves we should expect this to be because they're paid below their value

>>2459025
>any couple who has fewer than 2 children or any single person who has fewer than 1 child is "petty bourgeois"
DINK: double income no kids
>If a nation's population fails to reproduce itself Capital has to seek out labor from other nations by outsourcing or using immigrant labor.
"NAFTA is a response to low reproduction levels" (insert Clinton joke)

>>2459551
>Don't make more slaves for the owner class
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beloved_(novel)

>>2467344
>China ended standardized tests for kids under 12, suicides were through the roof
"Capitalist alienation making young people believe they have no future outside of LinkedIn wage slavery is good! the real problem is scary pieces of paper that are explicit about their future as chaff for bourgeois accumulation"

>>2467334
Ah heck my screen was so dark I literally didn't see them.
South Korean data jumpscare

If the issue is "people are too exploited for children" why are people in imperialized, immiserated countries still in population growth birth rates?
I think there's some deeper issue with how industrial society interacts with how people rationalize having kids at all

Why can't it be as simple as Electricity, Television, computers and mobile phones give you another option beside fucking before bed time?

>>2467564
It's urbanism

People in rural towns made babies to help in labour. People in cities have no incentives to have kids cause their labour doesn't directly provide food and water. It's urbanism. And low birth rates are the only good news of the 21st century.

We need to figure out a way to decouple the production of more humans from humans needing to be pregnant. Being pregnant objectively sucks, I'm sure most of the other men here would never want to be pregnant if they were women even if there were no economic downsides. If they're ever able to get genetically-modified animal organs in humans to work I wonder if you could use those animals to gestate human embryos since they wouldn't reject/be rejected by the human immune system.

>>2467556
because there you can pop out kids and send them to the mines/farm like in the "good old days"

>>2467556
>If the issue is "people are too exploited for children" why are people in imperialized, immiserated countries still in population growth birth rates?
because southern labor power is less valuable. they're actually less exploited, at least in absolute terms. also some areas have high infant mortality so proles must pop out more babies than average

File: 1757609775482.png (123.1 KB, 1336x1222, urbanite birth rate.png)

>>2467617
>It's urbanism.
Democratic Kampuchea, the most highly urbanized nation in history.
Seriously though, nowadays it's a non-issue for anyone other than the porky because of low infant and maternal mortality rates

>>2453978
I had a dream were the rationally planned state had to compete with capitalism without extracting surplus labour by artificial coercion through paying half the labour voucher then delaying payment for the other half but this would also mean they would work less because they're getting paid in full so which would require double the population size than a capitalist state to simulate the same about of productivity.

>"The worldwide plunge in fertility levels is still in many ways a mystery. It is generally believed that economic growth and material progress what scholars often call “development” or “modernization” account for the world’s slide into super-low birthrates and national population decline. Since birthrate declines commenced with the socioeconomic rise of the West and since the planet is becoming ever richer, healthier, more educated, and more urbanized many observers presume lower birthrates are simply the direct consequence of material advances."

<"But the truth is that developmental thresholds for below-replacement fertility have been falling over time. Nowadays, countries can veer into sub-replacement with low incomes, limited levels of education, little urbanization, and extreme poverty. Myanmar and Nepal are impoverished UN-designated Least Developed Countries, but they are now also sub-replacement societies."

https://archive.is/IzveF

>>2453978
Is there any suggestion that communism would increase the birthrate naturally? What's to say it would remain at replacement levels or just below?

>>2457823
>Make parents petty bourgeois


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