Yes, China has in may ways betrayed many of the principles of Marxism. China is deeply flawed, and I have no pretenses to convince you otherwise.
Yet, despite all of these flaws does China not offer a strong foundation for building Communism. China, unlike other countries has both a strong base of material wealth to build off of as well as a populous that both believes in and is willing to act on the principles of Marxism.
It seems to me at least that it is comparatively our best hope for building communism. Is it not? I would like to hear others input on this subject as I'm still somewhat on the fence regarding all of this.
79 posts and 18 image replies omitted.>>2458950Isn't that the role of capitalism? Once we hit monopoly capitalism, once each industry worldwide is controlled by a single company, and these companies have most every government worldwide under their thumb, we would then have the ideal conditions for revolution, since everything has already been centralized, we just need to make it democratic now, which is the role of the DotP.
From my POV, "actually existing socialism" is not just reactionary, but stupid, because it delays the centralization necessary for a stateless society to exist.
>>2458975>Isn't that the role of capitalism? Once we hit monopoly capitalism, once each industry worldwide is controlled by a single company, and these companies have most every government worldwide under their thumb, we would then have the ideal conditions for revolution, since everything has already been centralized, we just need to make it democratic now, which is the role of the DotP.yeah sorta that is one perspective that can be drawn from lenins analysis of imperialism. i kinda consider chinas bri to be essentially that. a "nice productive forces u got there would be a shame if someone…seized it" type of situation.
>From my POV, "actually existing socialism" is not just reactionary, but stupid, because it delays the centralization necessary for a stateless society to exist.the problem is that assumes the possibility of kautsky's ultraimperialism. in reality there is no imperialist peace, competing imperialists will always be driven by the profit motive, and the falling RoP under monopoly conditions, and will attempt to capture or destroy competing productive forces to maintain their monopolistic lack of competition so they can maximize rents.
"It is clear why imperialism is moribund capitalism, capitalism in transition to socialism: monopoly, which grows out of capitalism, is already dying capitalism, the beginning of its transition to socialism. The tremendous socialisation of labour by imperialism (what its apologists-the bourgeois economists-call “interlocking”) produces the same result. " and all that
if they actually did achieve a one world monopoly we would be in a thousand year riech, or barbarism, where they could do something like genetically modify their children and poison the working population through food, and complete privitization of technology into one entity would start to divide workers and owners into different species precluding the possibility of revolution in the face of overwhelming force. thats why socialism isn't inevitable, requires class consciousness, education, agitation, organization.
>>2458866He said that socialism is the first stage towards communism which is pretty much what Marx also would say ITT and which is the path the CPC officially chose towards achieving communism in the future. In response you screeched about "muh authority" like any random bourgeois liberal would do when faced with the reality of a proper communist party practicing a DoTP, however that's not an argument against the CPC. The CPC doesn't claim it already reached communism (in fact no ML state including the USSR and DDR has claimed that) nor full socialism nor a full DoTP, however it ultimately controls the means of production in the PRC since Mao's times and since then has not allowed a bourgeois counter-revolution to occur, which is why the western bourgeois MSM remains mad about the PRC supposedly being "authoritarian", "totalitarian" and "lacking freedom" and whatnot. Again, the PRC is not a full socialist DoTP as of yet as capitalist ownership of factories still exists next to people's owned property and people's owned means of production and foreign capitalists even get help and support from the CPC to run their factories in China in the best way possible. However, in the PRC capitalists are ultimately at the mercy of the CPC (which is the Chinese Communist worker's and peasant's party) and when they fuck around they find out rather quickly.
>workers do not own their workplacesYou can theoretically be an "owner" of the means of production under capitalism when you buy stocks of the company that buys your labour and takes the surplus, but that's not a step towards socialism and communism, it just makes you partly to your own capitalist, you get to exploit a fraction of your own labour.
Yesterday Xi wore a nice Mao style suit while attending the military parade along Kim and Cucktin, bourgeois liberal SPIEGEL noted ominously lol
>>2459087>The CPC doesn't claim it already reached communism (in fact no ML state including the USSR and DDR has claimed that) nor full socialism nor a full DoTPNo but
>>2458864 does.
>>2458810That may be a (you) but it's not a real reply.
Merkste selber, ne?
Where's my reply? I said repeatedly (elsewhere) that I give you a chance to reply and convince me, or the imaginary other, that the west is anything but useless. I have seen nothing that even suggests the beginning of such work. Of course, naturally, cause you are fundamentally useless pos. But again, not really my fault.
And this is (china is not real, it can't hurt the imperialists etc.) just cope. All you do is that, while styling yourself as progressive or whatever the fuck.
>>2459111> >>2459087>bourgeois liberal SPIEGEL noted ominously itsafraid.jpg
See this is the news outta the west I wanna hear
Until such a time as you (ultra/liberals etc.) can present something better. An "alternative".
>>2459143Ok and it is not my concern whether you think they are pure and innocent (this is not a response to you, I started typing before finishing reading). No one is innocent in this world, reality.
Big picture shit:
Reality is invading the garden. Westoids, by and large, are not taking it well, to say the least. Politics has moved, consequently, from a funny, theoretical exercise to a real thing that will be responsible for life and death, war and peace. In a word, history is back.
That is the context from which I "feel the need" to "defend" China.
And I am not asking people to look upon China as their savior or gratitude. that is also no concern of mine. Just try to curb the war mongering and/or your playing into the war monger's hands. Or we will see terror beyond our comprehension. You know, no pressure. I for one have fundamentally given up on saving people in the west from themselves. It's just gonna be the old fascist song and dance again, updated for the new millennium.
And like, on a psychological level, and here's where it gets speculative, the first step would be for the western left to stop taking itself so seriously and all-important. You are merely one aspect of the whole. A, in reality, quite vestigial aspect. A mythos, something that may have had an (independent) existence but is now in a coma or dead. And the rest, this ex-left, is subsumed into the imperialist war-machine.
>>2459087>In response you screeched about "muh authority" like any random bourgeois liberal would do when faced with the reality of a proper communist party practicing a DoTP, however that's not an argument against the CPC.>which is why the western bourgeois MSM remains mad about the PRC supposedly being "authoritarian"With all due respect, you obviously don't know what an appeal to authority is. An appeal to authority is a logical fallacy where one points to a respected figure and says "Look, he agrees with me! Who are you to question?". It doesn't actually address the point at hand logically or dialectically, it assumes that the respected figure is automatically right about everything because they're respected. It's the same kind of thinking that allows religions to propagate, and we don't want that anywhere near a scientific socialism.
>>2459115>>2459156Meds.
>>2459490Russia had McDolan, as does Ukraine. Are you being facetious, ironic, sarcastic?
Or simply americunt?
>>2459483Ah now here's another reply of no worth. Now anyone else would s move on immediately. But not me, no.
I'll simply take this opportunity and go on as usual.
Tell me what you are having trouble with, and it shall be illuminated.
And don't take it personally. I don't mean you, in your trot splitter party who may turn up to anti-war activity.
But to the west generally: Start swimming, or you will have to dive.
>>2459553>In response you screeched about "muh authority" like any random bourgeois liberal would do when faced with the reality of a proper communist party practicing a DoTP>which is why the western bourgeois MSM remains mad about the PRC supposedly being "authoritarian", "totalitarian" and "lacking freedom" and whatnot.I don't know how else to interpret this other than you interpreting
>>2458866 as me attacking China for being "authoritarian", which I didn't. And I'm not attacking anything besides the poor argumentation skills of the people in this thread.
>>2458975No because imperialism is stagnant. The capitalists do not want to lower the rate of profit and the capitalists do not want to give up power.
Class struggle is required to force the capitalists into competition and lowering the rate of profit. For example, labor unions force the capitalists to outsource all the factories into the periphery.
Destroying the productive forces just does the work of fascists and imperialists for them in delaying socialism. You cannot accelerate capitalism by acquiescence, capitalism is accelerated through resistance.
>>2459967In China, private property refers to the lawful property owned by citizens, including but not limited to the following examples:
Residential Property: Homes, apartments, or other residential real estate owned by individuals.
Personal Vehicles: Cars, motorcycles, bicycles, or other means of transportation owned by individuals.
Savings and Investments: Bank deposits, stocks, bonds, mutual funds, and other financial assets.
Business Ownership: Private enterprises, sole proprietorships, or shares in private companies.
Personal Belongings: Household items, electronics, jewelry, art, and other personal possessions.
Intellectual Property: Patents, trademarks, copyrights, and other forms of intellectual property created by individuals.
Agricultural Land: Land contracted by farmers under the household registration system for agricultural production.
The Chinese government protects the lawful private property of citizens in accordance with the law, ensuring that their rights and interests are respected and safeguarded. This is an important aspect of China's socialist legal system and contributes to social stability and economic development.
-t. Deepseek
>>2461211And you think that is a reply? Nevermind that the man in the video freely "confesses" to there being "private property" (capitalists, which cannot exists without the concept).
I don't think it's pedagogically the right move to reply.
I'll say this only, it's akin to everyone talking about how to get from A to B, and you coming in to say "A is not B". Wow, yeah, you're a bit slow, aren't you?
Sorry if there's some joke or irony I am not getting here but we have generally left behind the "libertarian", pure "socialism" so far, I think (self-)parody is mostly going to miss the mark. It's kinda hard to fathom. We are fundamentally talking about different things. You have missed the bus. History is back. Goes back to what I said about politics as a "theoretical exercise" and a real thing with real consequence, above.
Point is, you're behind, you're behind me. You think you are walking in front ("to the left" of reality, as it were), this is an illusion, a chimera.
>>2461701Thanks
I suppose
I am modest here, I will chalk up any understanding from the westoid corner, no matter how little and/or begrudgingly it may be, as a victory.
>>2461704You missed the point
again
Lemme try in a most basic way:
It's about the journey, not the destination.
>>2462121Man, I don't know. What specifically is it that is troubling you?
>>2462322This is a fine enough answer in an abstract, broad way.
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