/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

>>2460459
Sure, why not? It literally just comes down to class. Are they poor, do big capitalists own and profit off of everything around them? If they are exploited and have nothing to lose then they are your jam.

>>2460459
It depends how deep in they are. If they're the kind of people who constantly bring up conservative grievance politics, "they made Cracker Barrel woke" type shit, your efforts are probably going to be better spent elsewhere. If, however, there's a more generalized distrust of American institutions and a broad feeling of being left behind by the system, chances are good that you can in fact convert them.

Just don't make the mistake of engaging in ACP-style tailism. You must bring them to communism; it is not possible to bring communism to them.

>>2460459
You in the San Joaquin Valley? You described the area near Fresno.
I'm from there originally. I think you'd be wasting your time at this point honestly. There are a huge number of factors working against you - not the least of which to say that the region is quite religious.
You'd have as solid a shot as you would in rural Alabama. With probably the same result if you catch my meaning.

>Maoism
<a communist movement started in the 1930s aimed at Chinese peasants in a backward country occupied by imperial Japan
>California
<the most developed state in the USA, which is itself the most developed capitalist country in the world

What do you think? Seriously. Think about it more than two seconds. Have you ever heard of "material conditions"? Do you think the material conditions that gave rise to Maoism in 1930s China are similar to the material conditions of 2020s USA?

>>2460726
I'm guessing the other poster is young.
If it's the part of California I'm thinking of, it's quite rural.
But, as you pointed out, not 1930s rural.
It's also full of gun-toting right wingers who lack a decent education and have been thoroughly propagandized against socialism of all kinds. You can't even get people there to support conventional democrats, you're not going to get them to support outright communism.

The central valley in California is largely Mexican and Mexican American. A large chunk of them work in ag labor and get paid low wages and large chunk of those people are undocumented. The area in general is fairly conservative especially when considering the rest of the state but the liberalism of the state is a bit overstated at least the "woke" variety of it. The area trends Republican but I think that's generally because whites are more likely to vote in the area and they trend Republican. Generally like any other part of this country leftism and communism will not be particularly popular at least I don't think so.

>>2460670
>It literally just comes down to class
Why do you say this when you can clearly see with your own eyes it is not the case.

rural places are nothing but old retards

>>2460670
>class is defined by absolutely nothing but "exploitation" in vague terms
gigaretard

>>2460726
>Bolshevism
<A communist movement started in the 1910s in a backwards, underdeveloped empire during a world war
>California
<the most developed state in the USA, which is itself the most developed capitalist country in the world that hasn't been successfully invaded for over 200 years.
>Duhhhh have you ever heard of "material conditions"?? Do you think the material conditions that gave rise to Bolshevism in 1910s Russia are similar to the material conditions of 2020s USA? I am very smart!

Gold star for trying I guess. The point of understanding material conditions isn't to match them to similar conditions like a game of "Go Fish", the whole point of analyzing material conditions is to be able to creatively apply lessons learned in different conditions in order to change conditions where you're at. This is what keeps Revolutionary Communism dynamic and adaptable, rather than stagnant and mechanistic like so many gangrenous "Communist" and "democratic socialist" organizations today.

>>2460785
>I'm guessing the other poster is young.
Outside of 4chan I strongly doubt there are very many, if any, young people still using imageboards today. Doubly so for a more obscure one like this.
>It's also full of gun-toting right wingers who lack a decent education and have been thoroughly propagandized against socialism of all kinds.
As has already been pointed out in this thread, you're approaching this with the mistaken outlook that the principal issue is that people in the US have simply been mislead and would support socialism if they understood what it is, and that people in the US are more propagandized against socialism than in other countries. Both ideas are untrue. Do you honestly think people in the US face more direct anti-communist propaganda than, say, Poland or the Philippines where major communist parties are outright banned? Do you think the success of revolutions worldwide is because the propaganda wasn't as present in their countries?

No. Anti-communist propaganda is more or less effective based on two linked factors: One, do revolutionary forces have a good grasp on the shape of the class struggle in their country and are they navigating it effectively? Two, what is the relationship of the national classes (proletarian and bourgeois) to imperialism and world revolution? In India, for example, anti-communist propaganda has been overall less effective because revolutionary forces have historically had a good grasp of the class struggles there, and the national classes overall have an antagonistic relationship with imperialism. The reverse is true in the US. Communist parties have overall failed to recognize and navigate the class struggle within the US, and the national classes have a principally non-antagonistic relationship with world imperialism.

>>2460847
Second person you're responding to here:
Very well said. I don't disagree with any of this.
I'm just pointing out that, if the poster is talking about the region where I spent a lot of time in my youth and early adulthood, it is not prime for revolution.

>>2460987
>if the poster is talking about the region where I spent a lot of time in my youth and early adulthood, it is not prime for revolution.
I don't disagree. What I'm trying to unpack is why it's not prime for revolution and why propaganda works. I think it's important that we discard this notion that people dislike socialism principally because of a lack of general education or propaganda. Propaganda is an external factor in what is principally an internal process of revolutionizing minds. Framing the issue as education and propaganda obscures the actual class character of most rural populations in the US and why they trend so strongly towards overt fascism (remember my two criteria in my previous post). People of all economic classes are more than capable of recognizing their interests and acting on them. Understanding the land question and unpacking what the enduring Jeffersonian ideal of "every man a plot of land" means for a state like California, a state taken from Mexico by outright military conquest and whose native populations are much less scattered than the East Coast Nations, is a collective process that will give us much more useful answers to what needs to be done in these rural areas.

Marx said "The philosophers have only interpreted the world in various ways - the point however is to change it" and that remains my favorite line from him. It's not enough to observe that people are reactionary and fall for propaganda. Why is this, and what needs to be done about it? This is how we consciously change the world.

>>2460785
the Democrats are not farther left than the Republicans 🙄

>rural shithole with very few people is more "prime for da epic revolushun" than the city where its filled with proletarians forced to go live there to be able to land a job
>considering the proletariat separately instead of as a global association
leftoidpol is nothing but fucking larpers

>>2461215
No, they are not as far to the left of the spectrum as many socialists would like.
Pretending that the party that at least pays lip service to ideas like equality for all, healthcare for all, workers rights, paid leave, and other left-wing ideals is exactly the same as the party that actively works to dismantle them is absolutely absurd.
Yes, Democrats are liberals, not socialists. But don't act like they aren't at least closer to being social democrats than fucking Republicans are.

>>2461212
>It's not enough to observe that people are reactionary and fall for propaganda
of course the maotard grasps the world in terms of a martketplace of clashing ideas instead of material conditions and believes the "revolution" will look like some jungle guerrilla warfare bullshit lol

>>2461215
>>2461228
communists dont care about the left-right bourgeois spectrum shit. to the immiserated all bourgeois society is the same

>>2461231
>communists dont care about the left-right bourgeois spectrum shit. to the immiserated all bourgeois society is the same
And this overly simplistic rhetoric that refuses to make distinctions is a big part of why the Marxist left doesn't make strong inroads in mainstream thought.
If you want to guide the people to something better, you have to meet them where they are and on the terms they understand, not condescend to them for not accepting your framework from the outset. That's no way to build a workers' movement at all.

>>2461231
You're not a communist, mantits, being terminally online larping as one isn't it

>>2461249
>you arent a communist for criticizing some out of touch retardation about jungle militias or whatever the fuck
lol accusing me of "terminally online larping" is rich like sorry it isnt the early 20th century anymore

>>2461243
>the Marxist left
wtf even does this mean. is there a "marxist right"

>mainstream thought
lol of course the lib is concerned with democracy shit instead of helping with the classist movement

>>2461260
Yeah, this is why I want nothing to do with you guys.
No thanks.

anyway its always middle classers concerned with wasting their time (they have lots of it) trying to convince other middle classers about communism like its a religion instead of going to where the physical struggle already actually is, like workers are already fighting the system every day over their economic interests

if a communist or you want to end this system youve got to meet them where they are show them whats really going on why theyre the ones who can bring it down, and lead by organizing their struggles, not trying to do some debate shit with politically inert petit bourgeois

>>2461264
i mean you have nothing to do with proletarians either, go vote or hand out some irrelevant pamphlets or whatever it is you retards do

>>2461266
With comrades like you, who would need enemies.

>>2461267
(continued)
I was seriously interested in what you guys stood for too. But it doesn't sound like I'm welcome.
I didn't come here to argue or fight, so I'm just going to leave.

>>2461273
I'm going back to /pol/, actually.
They were right about you.

>>2461277
Oh, I'm not politically inert.
I'm on the other side. I just wanted to give you a chance.
I see my mistake now.

>>2461289
Good luck with your revolutionary larp anon.
Because we both know it ain't going anywhere.

>>2460670
>people who know nothing about the young patriots, will keep using this image as proof that rightwingers can be easily turned into socialists
grim

>>2461231
>of course the maotard grasps the world in terms of a martketplace of clashing ideas instead of material conditions and believes the "revolution" will look like some jungle guerrilla warfare bullshit lol
I didn't say either of those things, actually. In fact my exact argument was to grasp material conditions (or are the class struggle and class relations to imperialism not material conditions anymore?) in order to understand why groups of people gravitate to certain politics and build strategy and tactics from there, instead of one-sidedly declaring people reactionary or revolutionary and moving on. I then discussed how material conditions (again, class struggle) enhances or weakens the effectiveness of propaganda, providing a framework for understanding this with more depth than "there's a lot of propaganda, therefore it's effective".

I said absolutely nothing about what strategy is required for revolutionary war in the United States. You do not know what Maoism is.

>>2461275
>>2461281
>>2461297
fucking incredible how the literal /pol/tard posts stay up but the other posts are deleted lol. absolute state of this shithole

>>2460670
>If they are exploited and have nothing to lose
everyone here always forgets that part

>>2462205
You were being a complete and utter dick and got exactly what you deserved.
It's a fucking shame you're allowed back here and not banned on sight to be honest.

>>2461345
I was thinking about their recruitment of Indigenous folk