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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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Not reporting is bourgeois


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I'm a new to this whole political spiel, I was wondering which political side (left-right) actually is truthful on how the world like work, if we don't uncover the truth and what's real, you end up like a schizo believing in bullshit, anyway how to I know which side of the political divide is actually the truthful side?

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Absolute truth is an illusion.

Read Marx and get right with materialism.

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>>2465098
>I'm a new to this whole political spiel
aka "i got a new hobby"

"Sides" will always be wrong becauseethey emerge from fossilized ideals at standstill with another. The path to approximating truth is methodology:

- learn about immanent critique
- learn to use your bookmarks / make a personal website with wikis, tools and other resources you use regularly
- never expect the chase to end, the world is infinitely complex and so too is learning about the world.
- as such, prioritize useful things first so you don't overwhealm yourself

>>2465132
>how to not become a schizo?
<do this that will turn you into a schizo!

>>2465132
>- learn about immanent critique
considering the rest of your post is all retarded methinks you dont mean "immanent critique" as in what marx did but what adorno and the rest of those bullshitters did by trying to pass ideology as critique of ideology

Your question boils down to letting someone else do the thinking for you while you merely want to know who to place your faith in. Don‘t pick sides. Learn about philosophy and learn about historic and journalistic inquiry, then form your own opinions.

>>2465151
>methinks you dont mean "immanent critique" as in what marx
What else could immanent critique possibly mean? It's not an ambigious term.
>>2465149
>schizo is when basic notetaking and not falling into philgrad nonsense of "absolute truth"

>>2465101
>Here's your real life waifu you always wanted

>>2465153
>Learn about philosophy and learn about historic and journalistic inquiry
one of these is not like the others

>>2465156
sorry for misunderstand your post brah. "immanent critique" got seriously muddled in the last century

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>>2465158
Anime girls are real.

>>2465160
Ah, no worries.

>>2465160
>one of these is not like the others
You don‘t say

>muh immanent critique mentioned without definition provided.

It's when you critique a theory or system from within its own framework, rather than applying an external standard. Essentially, it’s about revealing contradictions or limitations that exist within the very ideas or structures being critiqued, without stepping outside of them.

>>2465101
Gravity is real, you can deny that Gravity exist, but you can't escape the effect of Gravity have on you, so somekind of truths are real even if you don't like or belive in them, the rigth mindset is find out those truths of world.

>which political side (left-right)
well thars yer problem

dream

>>2465158
It's at that point you realize an anime girl is nothing outside of an anime world

>>2465176
But gravity would continue to be even if there wasn't a sophont around to deem it true. Deeming things true about something doesn't change the properties of that thing, there is no schizo psychic hivemind demi-god democracy. There is only that which tan be observed or inferred.

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Simply look at history if you think we're on the wrong side. The guys fighting communism:
>The Nazis, Fascists, the CIA, Pinochet, the Italian Mafia, War Criminals, Unit 731, Feudal lords, Warlords, Sex traffickers, Zionists, Theocrats, Racists, Pedos, Bankers, Big Businessmen

>>2465197
Unironically after read the history of my country made me realize how ridiculous it was the fact that almost all problems of country came down to elite literally doing anything in the power to keep at the top at the cost of everything else, the people got fucked constantly, it's ridiculous.

>>2465197
>muh morals
op could work in business or some shit and he would gladly think half the people you listed did nothing wrong :)

>>2465230
it doesnt take a genius to know someone "at the top" would do almost anything to remain there lol

>>2465260
What IF we put leftist on the top? Would they do everything within their power to keep at the top? Do anarkiddies have a point about power?

>>2465290
Do you want the leftists to fall from power?

>>2465290
>useless hypothetical
im a communist, not a leftard btw

>>2465290
AES states have indeed done everything they could to maintain power.

>Do anarkiddies have a point about power?

Yes, absolutely. The problem is that their solution is retarded.

>>2465294
>>useless hypothetical
That has existed multiple times in material reality?
>im a communist, not a leftard btw
Dear hazcels, why the fuck is this a distinction you care about so much?

>>2465325
Marx was a "hazcel" now. Holy shit why is everyone here a retarded American?

>why the fuck is this a distinction you care about so much?

The left-right divide is quite explicitly an abstraction that comes from the French revolution.

>>2465325
Why the anarchist solution is so bad?

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>>2465290
>>2465325
>What IF we put leftist on the top?

>>2465332
It meant in a sense you give power to a group of people, would the fact of having power change their ways and become corrupt, will they give up power easily? Like at North Korea? Will the Kim dynasty ever give up their power?

>>2465327
Everyone thinks of Marxism as leftist. Definitions follow from common usage, not some kind of idealistic essential meaning.

>>2465330
Read On Authority by Engels. The long and short of it is that society needs some kind of enforced structure if anything is actually going to get done.

A better solution, one that would in practice create the kind of world most anarchists want but is actually reasonably achievable, is some combination of direct democracy and subsidiarity: have the workers decide things for themselves at as local of a level as sanity allows. The specifics of such a system are completely up in the air, to further define it would be utopian waffling, but we have enough historical evidence to indicate that such a thing is definitely possible, unlike Anarchism which has been unable to exist for any prolonged period anywhere.


>>2465325
>communism is separate from and at odds with left-wing politics because the latter implies class collaboration
<so you think communism is right-wing? hazoid!!!!!!!!
special ed moment

>>2465344
communism isnt an ideology fucktard

>>2465349
Thanks for the link.

>>2465363
><so you think communism is right-wing? hazoid!!!!!!!!
I didn't say that.

>>2465363
>communism isn't a ideology

Uh?

Whatever side hates weebs more.

>>2465376
>I hate weebs
>write this on a imageboard created by weebs

>>2465388
Well that's like saying misogynists shouldn't use computers since women invented them. Correct, but not gonna convince the target of said critique.

>>2465367
>>2465344
Midwits who say shit like this are just mirroring typical bourgeois ideological views rather than turning it on its head.

sorry about all of these terrible, unhelpful comments.

my form of education is from a first principles perspective, and is thus historical or etymological. so, when we even to even speak of "politics", we must carefully define terms according to their correctness. the term "politics" originally refers to πόλις ("polis"), which was the greek city-state. aristotle (politics, book 1) claims that men are political animals, since the state is the telos (final cause) of social existence. he claims for example, that we begin with families, then extend to villages and finally, we form states. so politics refers to the state. concerning the state, aristotle describes its revenues (oeconomicus, book 2) as various types of taxation which come from different areas of society. so the state is funded by citizens (demos). yet, as aristotle understands it, the state also represents particular classes over others. this occurs by 6 major forms of government (politics, book 3):
>Of the above-mentioned forms, the perversions are as follows: of royalty, tyranny; of aristocracy, oligarchy; of constitutional government, democracy. For tyranny is a kind of monarchy which has in view the interest of the monarch only; oligarchy has in view the interest of the wealthy; democracy, of the needy: none of them the common good of all […] Tyranny, as I was saying, is monarchy exercising the rule of a master over the political society; oligarchy is when men of property have the government in their hands; democracy, the opposite, when the indigent, and not the men of property, are the rulers.
https://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/politics.3.three.html
the state therefore, as aristotle understands it, is a form of class rule, either by a minority or majority, with each excluding everyone else. politics may then be said to refer to preference for a particular form of government based on what class will be represented.

the left-right distinction only comes much later, in the context of "political orientation", within the french national assembly, 1789:
>The terms "left" and "right" first appeared during the French Revolution of 1789 when members of the National Assembly divided into supporters of the Ancien Régime to the president's right side and supporters of the revolution to his left side [.] When the National Assembly was replaced in 1791 by a Legislative Assembly composed of entirely new members, the divisions continued. "Innovators" sat on the left, "moderates" gathered in the centre, while the "conscientious defenders of the constitution" found themselves sitting on the right, where the defenders of the Ancien Régime had previously gathered […] Following the Restoration in 1814–1815, political clubs were again formed. The majority ultra-royalists chose to sit on the right. The "constitutionals" sat in the centre while independents sat on the left. The terms extreme right and extreme left, as well as centre-right and centre-left, came to be used to describe the nuances of ideology of different sections of the assembly.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left%E2%80%93right_political_spectrum
here, politics is still based on orientation to class. those loyal to the aristocracy are on "the right", while those opposed to it are on "the left". moreover:
>[Thomas] Jefferson wrote LaFayette on November 4, 1823, where "Côté droit" means "right side" and "côté gauche" means "left side.": "for in truth the parties of Whig and Tory are those of nature. they exist in all countries, whether called by these names, or by those of Aristocrats and democrats, coté droite or coté gauche, Ultras or Radicals, Serviles or Liberals"
here, the left and right spectrum appears to be a common trend in international politics, consolidating into various parties. the class element persisted:
>Those on the Left often called themselves "republicans", which at the time meant favoring a republic over a monarchy, while those on the Right often called themselves "conservatives" […] The Scottish sociologist Robert M. MacIver noted in The Web of Government (1947): The right is always the party sector associated with the interests of the upper or dominant classes, the left the sector expressive of the lower economic or social classes, and the centre that of the middle classes.
here then, "the left" refers to the republicans of the french revolution, who did not merely oppose the ruling class, but promoted their own class, the "bourgeoisie", or middle class. for this reason, marx identifies the socialists of 1848 as "bourgeois":
>Yet, when it was written, we could not have called it a socialist manifesto […] Thus, in 1847, socialism was a middle-class movement, communism a working-class movement. Socialism was, on the Continent at least, “respectable”; communism was the very opposite.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/preface.htm
marx further criticises all forms of rival socialism:
>"Reactionary Socialism", "Feudal Socialism", "Petty-Bourgeois Socialism", "German or True Socialism" and "Conservative or Bourgeois Socialism"
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch03.htm
in all these cases, marx sees socialism representing a different class than that of the proletariat (working class) and so it is ineffectual to his own aims. politics then is understood as class warfare, or as marx says:
>The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles […] every class struggle is a political struggle.
so from aristotle to marx, politics is based around class; of representing minorities or majorities. the left and right similarly refer to class interest - historically, the middle class against the aristocracy, which is why some see the left-right spectrum as anachronistic, since the middle class have won the class war, yet one cannot simply be the left of "the left". the term "socialist" or "communist" thus comes to theorise a new class struggle against "capitalism", or the political rule of capitalists by a "bourgeois dictatorship".

in marx's conception, the propertied oppress the propertyless, which is also adam smith's perspective:
>Civil government, so far as it is instituted for the security of property, is in reality instituted for the defence of the rich against the poor, or of those who have some property against those who have none at all.
https://www.adamsmithworks.org/documents/wealthofnations-reading-guide-book-v-chapter-1
various solutions may then be proposed. either (1) the wealthy will oppress the poor, (2) the poor will oppress the wealthy, or (3) all wealth will be shared. this is the ultimate logic of politics. marx is obviously on the side of the poor, but aristotle sees how crime and revolution come from the poor, and so their enfranchisement must be made by a sharing of property:
>Yet the true friend of the people should see that they be not too poor, for extreme poverty lowers the character of the democracy; measures therefore should be taken which will give them lasting prosperity; and as this is equally the interest of all classes, the proceeds of the public revenues should be accumulated and distributed among its poor, if possible, in such quantities as may enable them to purchase a little farm, or, at any rate, make a beginning in trade or husbandry. And if this benevolence cannot be extended to all, money should be distributed in turn according to tribes or other divisions, and in the meantime the rich should pay the fee for the attendance of the poor at the necessary assemblies; and should in return be excused from useless public services. 
https://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/politics.6.six.html
while marx takes a more radical stance:
>In this sense, the theory of the Communists may be summed up in the single sentence: Abolition of private property.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch02.htm
in classical terms therefore, marx would be a tyrant while aristotle is a democrat. aristotle wants class harmony while marx wants class dictatorship.

to conclude, there is no "correct" stance on politics, there is only loyalty or antagonism to certain classes, which then accord to different forms of government.

>>2465513
Why am I wrong?

For the record, a lot of my advocacy of direct democracy and decentralized politics is practical in nature, not just ideological. When power is centralized, while you do get a certain level of efficiency, you've also created central failure points where political corruption, political subversion, or just plain political ineptitude, could make the whole thing go pear shaped. And this is not a position based in abstract theory, it is one backed by historical evidence. The Soviet Union collapsed primarily because a handful of rogue bureaucrats wanted it to.

>>2465686
>to conclude, there is no "correct" stance on politics
There are correct and incorrect stances on politics insofar as certain political systems can and cannot sustain themselves under a given set of material conditions. As an example, I don't criticize Anarchism because I think it's evil, on the contrary I agree with the general sentiment, but because such a system is, with the current state of things, unviable.

>>2465905
anarchy means "without rulers": an-arkhos.
so its not a political concept, but an anti-political concept.

>>2465984
Isn't logistics political, regardless if there's a ruler?

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>>2466060
without a state, there is no politics. the realm of production and exchange generally is considered the economic, as opposed to political. the origin of the term "economics" refers directly to "household management", and for this reason, aristotle says that it predates politics:
>From this definition of a Nation, it is evident that the art of Housecraft is older than that of Statecraft, since the Household, which it creates, is older; being a component part of the Nation created by Statecraft.
https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0048%3Abook%3D1%3Asection%3D1343a
marx also writes here that in the absence of class rule, a state loses its political character:
>When, in the course of development, class distinctions have disappeared, and all production has been concentrated in the hands of a vast association of the whole nation, the public power will lose its political character. Political power, properly so called, is merely the organised power of one class for oppressing another. If the proletariat during its contest with the bourgeoisie is compelled, by the force of circumstances, to organise itself as a class, if, by means of a revolution, it makes itself the ruling class, and, as such, sweeps away by force the old conditions of production, then it will, along with these conditions, have swept away the conditions for the existence of class antagonisms and of classes generally, and will thereby have abolished its own supremacy as a class.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch02.htm
this is seen as the state's "abolition" by engels:
>Yet what is here already very plainly expressed is the idea of the future conversion of political rule over men into an administration of things and a direction of processes of production – that is to say, the “abolition of the state”, about which recently there has been so much noise.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1880/soc-utop/ch01.htm
so marx and engels seek a post-political situation, where production is centralised for all, rather than a few. of course, i am sceptical that you can forcefully centralise production and distribution without a new class of managers propping up, reproducing politics. we may then consider 3 tendencies: (1) the pre-political, (2) the post-political and (3) the non-political. i prefer the non-political since this is also where civil society exists, as the realm of free association. the marxist contradiction is in the idea that when everything is politicised, nothing is (when everyone is in the state, the state is abolished). as i have previously remarked, marx's comments are "totalitarian" in the precise way that ᴉuᴉlossnW described fascism (1927):
>Here we solemnly reaffirm our doctrine concerning the State; here I reaffirm my formula in the speech I delivered at La Scala in Milan: "Everything within the State, nothing against the State, nothing outside the State". I do not even think anyone in the 20th century can live outside the State, unless they are in a state of barbarism, a state of savagery.
https://bibliotecafascista.blogspot.com/2012/03/speech-of-ascension-may-26-1927.html?m=1
marxism and fascism are both "post-political" ideologies in my estimation, by attempting to transcend the state, from within the state's own limits. if we accept the limits of the state therefore, we come away from politics and into the civil sphere. this is also where anarchy appears to be based also.

Some high I.Q effort replies here

The right-wing believe that there is no such thing as society, that all human achievement is accomplished through individual greatness and not collective responsibility. This is complete and utter bullshit. Humans are a social animal and must form complex functional social groups to survive, it is fundamental to what we are and everything we do. Human society is everything, if we don't have a functional society we are nothing.

The answer will come to you when you sit on my dick

>>2466371
We are literally "apes together strong".

>>2466512
Wrong, board, homo, /lgbt/ is that way.

>>2466371
you have it backwards. the right focus on tribalism while the left focus on individualism. if the right didnt believe in collectives, they wouldnt be racist or sexist.
>>2466669
>we
if leftypol was put in a room, it would instantly splinter.

>>2466132

>If the proletariat… makes itself the ruling class, and, as such, sweeps away by force the old conditions of production, then it will, along with these conditions, have swept away the conditions for the existence of class antagonisms and of classes generally, and will thereby have abolished its own supremacy as a class.


private property is a precondition for capitalists as a class, but not of classes generally, which predate the nation state. social classes find their origin in the division of mental and physical labor shortly after you have surplus production from agriculture.

>without a state, there is no politics

no group decisions about the division of labor or status recognition existed in scattered tribes and villages before consolidation into states?

all rightist politics flow from the belief that your race/ethnicity/culture are superior and should violently erase all others

all leftist politics flow from the observation that all humans are born equal and no one is any more or less deserving than any other

if you're too retarded to see which one of these makes more sense that's on you

>>2472409
are right wingers equal to leftists and deserve everything as much as everyone else?

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>>2468596
>nation state
"polis" comes from the greek city-state, so im not implying politics is a modern phenomenon.
>division of labour
that is the economic, not political. marx even states that such "primitive communist" tribes may have patriarchy or divisions of labour:
>In the primitive Indian community there is social division of labour, without production of commodities.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch01.htm
>But such a state of reciprocal independence has no existence in a primitive society based on property in common, whether such a society takes the form of a patriarchal family, an ancient Indian community, or a Peruvian Inca State. 
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch02.htm
aristotle sees that economics precedes politics:
>From this definition of a Nation, it is evident that the art of Housecraft is older than that of Statecraft, since the Household, which it creates, is older; being a component part of the Nation created by Statecraft.
https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0048%3Abook%3D1%3Asection%3D1343a
and marx sees that economics proceeds politics:
>What we have to deal with here is a communist society, not as it has developed on its own foundations, but, on the contrary, just as it emerges from capitalist society; which is thus in every respect, economically, morally, and intellectually, still stamped with the birthmarks of the old society from whose womb it emerges […] But these defects are inevitable in the first phase of communist society as it is when it has just emerged after prolonged birth pangs from capitalist society. Right can never be higher than the economic structure of society and its cultural development conditioned thereby.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1875/gotha/ch01.htm

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>>2465098
>anime girl pfp
>retarded post

the original meaning of "political economy" is "the economy of a state or nation". aristotle in "oeconomica" (322 B.C.) and xenophon in "on revenues" (355 B.C.) deal with this subject - it could otherwise be described as "macroeconomics". to marx, political economy begins with william petty (1662) in his surveys on national wealth, such as in his "treatise" on taxes. adam smith later (1776) similarly deals in macroeconomic topics. later thinkers from the austrian school (1871-) deal in the axioms of trade rather than their empirical effects, creating a "science" of "microeconomic" deduction. as i have previously discussed however, carl menger's criticism of adam smith is so baseless that he ends up reproducing him:
>whether the propensity of men to truck, barter, and exchange one thing for another be one of the original principles in human nature, or whether it be the necessary consequence of the faculties of reason and speech,” or what other causes induce men to exchange goods, is a question Adam Smith left unanswered. The eminent thinker remarks only that it is certain that the propensity to barter and exchange is common to all men and is found in no other species of animals […] The most general form of the relationship responsible for human trade is therefore as follows: an economizing individual, A, has a certain quantity of a good at his disposal which has a smaller value to him than a given quantity of another good in the posses-sion of another economizing individual, B, who estimates the val-ues of the same quantities of goods in reverse fashion, the given quantity of the second good having a smaller value to him than the given quantity of the first good which is at the disposal of A"
<[menger, principles of economics, chapter 4]
of course, this nothing but a merely unconscious repetition of adam smith:
>When the division of labour has been once thoroughly established, it is but a very small part of a man's wants which the produce of his own labour can supply. He supplies the far greater part of them by exchanging that surplus part of the produce of his own labour, which is over and above his own consumption, for such parts of the produce of other men's labour as he has occasion for. 
<https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/smith-adam/works/wealth-of-nations/book01/ch04.htm
"macroeconomics" in the 20th century is largely attributed to the work and subsequent inspirations from john maynard keynes (1883-1946) who devised his "general theory" of the economy in 1936.

>>2466371
Huh? I thought the left always believed in the freedom of the individual from oppressive hierarchy and power structures. WTF are you even talking about?

>>2465098
> I'm a new to this whole political spiel, I was wondering which political side (left-right) actually is truthful on how the world like work, if we don't uncover the truth and what's real, you end up like a schizo believing in bullshit, anyway how to I know which side of the political divide is actually the truthful side?
The things that are true are those which scientifically analyze and critique the power structure that unquestionably (to all who live in this world, including the supporters) rules this world, Capital

The things that uphold this structure are generally lies. Even things that seem to oppose the structure yet offer alternative power structures as the “true” man behind the curtain, i.e., Jews, Reptilians, Aliens, the Gubmint, etc. are also attempts, often openly, to defend Capital and can also be assumed to be lies.

Capital is known to rule this world, none really deny it, save those presenting nonsensical alternatives. Now that we can acknowledge that Capital rules the world, all that’s left is to compare the scientific validity of the supporters vs the opponents. The supporters either say the system has always existed (disproven by historical study, capitalism is not even 500 years old, capital in any form has only existed a few thousand years and was subordinate for most of history), or is the most rational working out of a society of disparate actors (how did they conclude its rationality, how did they come to view the actors as disparate), the best way to increase wealth (what are they defining as wealth, how is it increased in their view, how did it come to be defined the way that it is); safe to say, all the frameworks of the supporters of the system require you to stop asking questions at some point, namely, those pertaining to the historical emergence, class structure, and potential contingency of the world system. It is the critiques of the world system, that actually deal with its historical specificity, its contingency, what factors in its development are determined, and generally, does not rely on any sort of narrative that centers human consciousness, will, or heroism.

From this breakdown we can assume anti-capitalist analysis holds greater validity and thus “truth” than pro-capitalist analysis. From which point we must uncover which form of anti-capitalism is most scientifically grounded, the two branches generally being (and hitherto still meaningfully existing) Marxism and Anarchism. I will let you decide between the two.

>>2465197
This response requires someone to already see all those factions as historical villains, it is a faulty argument that cannot appeal to people who do not already agree with you (tankie anti-literacy in a nutshell tbh)

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>>2475381
>The things that uphold this structure are generally lies. Even things that seem to oppose the structure yet offer alternative power structures as the “true” man behind the curtain, i.e., Jews, Reptilians, Aliens, the Gubmint, etc.
marx also falls into this at times, by seeing power "personified" in certain groups (i.e capitalists):
<"The expansion of value, which is the objective basis or main-spring of the circulation M—C—M, becomes his subjective aim, and it is only in so far as the appropriation of ever more and more wealth in the abstract becomes the sole motive of his operations, that he functions as a capitalist, that is, as capital personified and endowed with consciousness and a will."
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch04.htm
<"Just as products confront the producer as an independent force in capital and capitalists — who actually are but the personification of capital — so land becomes personified in the landlord and likewise gets on its hind legs to demand, as an independent force, its share of the product created with its help."
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1894-c3/ch48.htm
marx also appears to characterise in not-so metaphorical terms, as a spectral entity:
<"Capital is dead labour, that, vampire-like, only lives by sucking living labour, and lives the more, the more labour it sucks."
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch10.htm
so marx is attributing a power to capital beyond the reductive means of a mere social relation, but as an entity which personifies itself in the world, like how the jew to the christian is a child of the devil:
<"You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies."
>John 8:44
<"I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you."
>rev 3:9
so this is marx's proto-antisemitism. the only way to break this scapegoating of the capitalist therefore is by seeing the worker himself as responsible for capital's reproduction. isolating capital's agency to capitalists is marx's uncritical edge, along with designating landlords as "land" personified..? a foolish formulation.
>we can assume anti-capitalist analysis holds greater validity and thus “truth” than pro-capitalist analysis.
not in the least. "critique" and "criticism" are different things.
>From which point we must uncover which form of anti-capitalism is most scientifically grounded, the two branches generally being (and hitherto still meaningfully existing) Marxism and Anarchism.
marxism is primarily anti-socialist in its political orientation and is actually pro-capitalist in its historicity. the anarchists and syndicalists also either become liberals or fascists as bordiga explains:
>What remained in the fascist movement were the far-right groups plus those from the far left: ex-anarchists, ex-syndicalists, and ex-revolutionary syndicalists. 
https://www.marxists.org/archive/bordiga/works/1922/bordiga02.htm

>>2475496
> marx also falls into this at times, by seeing power "personified" in certain groups (i.e capitalists):
Wrong, Marx’s point about the bourgeoisie functionally being the personifications of Capital is specifically to dismiss the notion that capitalism is an ongoing conspiracy by capitalists or any other group, capitalists being the most realistic, jews, reptilians, aliens, etc. being the most absurdly fantastical
> marx also appears to characterise in not-so metaphorical terms, as a spectral entity:
This is, again, notably separate from an individual person, persons, or faction, this is a totalizing social metabolism that exists independent of particular individuals, this is the exact point of Marx’s allusions; pairing down Capital to the capitalists/bourgeoisie is actually in line with pairing it down to the Jews in a sense
> so marx is attributing a power to capital beyond the reductive means of a mere social relation, but as an entity which personifies itself in the world, like how the jew to the christian is a child of the devil:
The difference is that Marx is referring to a material social system that exists in the actual world, even if only socially constituted and historically contingent, whereas the Christian passage attributes a purely metaphysical attribute to a real people group justified on wholly immaterial intangible grounds linked to an explicitly intangible realm and inexplicable being
> so this is marx's proto-antisemitism. the only way to break this scapegoating of the capitalist therefore is by seeing the worker himself as responsible for capital's reproduction. isolating capital's agency to capitalists is marx's uncritical edge, along with designating landlords as "land" personified..? a foolish formulation.
Marx himself does not believe capitalism is a conspiracy of the capitalist, the dismantling of his antisemitism, by more erudite critics of Marx often made through On the Jewish Question, is to simply read Marx’s own vicious critique of antisemitic conspiracism, Marx’s actual critique of Capital already relies on Capital being a totalizing structure that conditions human behavior and is co-produced by both Labor and Capital, his theory requires that capitalism not be a conspiracy enacted by capitalists nor something dominated by a human will or particular group of human wills, this is exactly how Capital’s historical development can also be a dialectical movement toward its abolition, not because it is a conspiracy, but because it is not
> not in the least. "critique" and "criticism" are different things.
They are, explain what makes the comment you are replying to the one but not the other
> marxism is primarily anti-socialist in its political orientation and is actually pro-capitalist in its historicity. the anarchists and syndicalists also either become liberals or fascists as bordiga explains:
Marxism in certain historical firms has certainly been pro-capital, I’m not sure Marx himself could be called pro-capitalist, however he certainly wasn’t a moralist about capitalism, which might be what appears as being pro-capitalist when he sees its development positively in respect to feudalism and what he saw as its potential for transcendent supersession.

>>2465098
marxism has an ontological, economic, historic and social explanation of the world if you read marx and marxist authors you already have all your bases covered

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>>2475973
>marxism as a religion has theology, dogma, morality and eschatology
yes, we know.
>>2475749
>Marx’s point about the bourgeoisie functionally being the personifications of Capital is specifically to dismiss the notion that capitalism is an ongoing conspiracy by capitalists or any other group
youre contradicting yourself.
>this is a totalizing social metabolism
"totalising" would imply all people are capitalist
>whereas the Christian passage attributes a purely metaphysical attribute
marx is doing the same thing, which is why he uses mythic language to describe value and capital:
<The person objectifies himself in production, the thing subjectifies itself in the person
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1857/grundrisse/ch01.htm
<Rather, it is the machine which possesses skill and strength in place of the worker, is itself the virtuoso, with a soul of its own in the mechanical laws acting through it; and it consumes coal, oil etc. (matières instrumentales), just as the worker consumes food, to keep up its perpetual motion.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1857/grundrisse/ch13.htm
<The science which compels the inanimate limbs of the machinery, by their construction, to act purposefully, as an automaton, does not exist in the worker’s consciousness, but rather acts upon him through the machine as an alien power, as the power of the machine itself. 
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1857/grundrisse/ch13.htm
<The value of commodities is the very opposite of the coarse materiality of their substance, not an atom of matter enters into its composition.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch01.htm
<But, so soon as it steps forth as a commodity, it is changed into something transcendent. It not only stands with its feet on the ground, but, in relation to all other commodities, it stands on its head, and evolves out of its wooden brain grotesque ideas, far more wonderful than “table-turning” ever was. The mystical character of commodities…
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch01.htm
<To the latter, therefore, the relations connecting the labour of one individual with that of the rest appear, not as direct social relations between individuals at work, but as what they really are, material relations between persons and social relations between things.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch01.htm
<Could commodities themselves speak, they would say: Our use value may be a thing that interests men. It is no part of us as objects. What, however, does belong to us as objects, is our value. Our natural intercourse as commodities proves it. In the eyes of each other we are nothing but exchange values.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch01.htm
<Commodities find their own value already completely represented, without any initiative on their part, in another commodity existing in company with them. These objects, gold and silver, just as they come out of the bowels of the earth, are forthwith the direct incarnation of all human labour. Hence the magic of money.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch02.htm
<Because it is value, it has acquired the occult quality of being able to add value to itself. It brings forth living offspring, or, at the least, lays goldeuyghs.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch04.htm
>his theory requires that capitalism not be a conspiracy enacted by capitalists nor something dominated by a human will or particular group of human wills
youre literally not reading what marx wrote. read:
<he functions as a capitalist, that is, as capital personified and endowed with consciousness and a will.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch04.htm
<"Capital is dead labour, that, vampire-like, only lives by sucking living labour, and lives the more, the more labour it sucks."
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch10.htm
in all this, marx is attributing special and supernatural qualities to his object of study, and then personifying certain things as their manner of manifestation.
>They are, explain what makes the comment you are replying to the one but not the other
because you can critique capitalism without being an anti-capitalist
>Marxism in certain historical firms has certainly been pro-capital, I’m not sure Marx himself could be called pro-capitalist
if "scientific" socialism is described as a progression from capitalism, then capitalism is your prerequisite. engels also praises slavery in the same way:
<Without slavery, no Greek state, no Greek art and science, without slavery, no Roman Empire. But without the basis laid by Hellenism and the Roman Empire, also no modern Europe. We should never forget that our whole economic, political and intellectual development presupposes a state of things in which slavery was as necessary as it was universally recognised. In this sense we are entitled to say: Without the slavery of antiquity no modern socialism.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1877/anti-duhring/ch16.htm

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>>2465098
Bro have an epistemology and apply it, this is how you reach truth. If you have no epistemology then start there.

Ultimately you're just making your best guess at what lines up with what you see in the world, and what is more likely or less likely to be true (e.g. when comparing directly opposed claims in different books).

Also it helps to try to learn a subject deeply such that you begin to pick out the many sides. At first you just get a summary where everything is mostly harmonious. Then you dig deeper and find controversies. As you work in you'll begin to form an opinion on each side in the controversies, and choose one for yourself. This is the basic way. Don't look at any knowledge as objective and complete, and don't look at any controversy as two separate entities duking it out but instead see it as two sides within a field of study, who agree on many things but have some areas of contention.


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