I'm not a communist/socialist but I just finished reading Lenin's State and revolution and he claimed in the book that at one point in the communist society work would no longer be performed for wages but as a voluntary contribution to the community, because social relations and productive capacity would have developed to the point where coercion and material reward were unnecessary. That is the biggest piece of horseshit I have ever read in my life. If there is no monetary / material gain most of humanity will not work. Literally everyone I know (doctors, teachers, mechanics etc) fucking loathe working and would never do that voluntarily. Lenin was a retarded midget
>>2489139I know people in both healthcare and teaching who love their job, think it gives meaning to their lives, and would love it a lot more if they were not forced to do it badly and in shitty conditions to satisfy the profit motive and budget restriction this awful capitalist society force upon us. Plenty of activities are a lot more fulfilling when done in good conditions, and voluntarily or at least with greater degree of control in how you carry them out (and one of the thing many people miss about old soviet countries was how the workplace was a lot more democratic, with managers not being the overseer delegate of a tyrannical all powerful owner, but accepted coworker simply handling organizational tasks)
Lenin is also referring to a post scarcity situation, basically star trek.
but apparently all this surpass your current mental capacity and your imagination is irredeemably stumped by the society you live in, your horizon blocked by your current experience. At least you apparently try to read, so all hope may not be lost and you may one day recover enough mental flexibility to imagine things could be radically different.
>>2489139They loathe working in large part do to capitalism in itself
Its not a vacuum. Existing under capitalism means alienation and contradiction. Wow, color me surprised someone goes to school for ten years just to be beholden to insane regulations, too insurance mandates, too divisive private hospital policy vs state law vs individual needs, all while you still basically have to get your foot in the door or come from money to begin with to leave doors open for you
The money is a cope
I feel like mechanics wholly have far less stress and it's definitely more ease of entry, same with teachers and i could rant all day about schools being child abuse centers from the ground up.
>>2489139Marx and Lenin looked at the world and thought "and in the end we all live happily ever after" 💀
Grown ass men btw
>>2489139>ever read in my life. If there is no monetary / material gain most of humanity will not work. Literally everyone I know (doctors, teachers, mechanics etc) fucking loathe working and would never do that voluntarily.I am a teacher and love my job. Maybe not the classes at 830 but I do in general.
The point is that capitalism makes jobs shit by forcing people to work insane hours with no investment in making work more enjoyable because it would be unprofitable. Would you just sit on your ass and stare at the wall all day if you could get everything you need for free?
>>2489531>We could already or within a decade or so, automatize away 90% of drudgeworkDelusional. The vast majority of blue collar work is nowhere close to being automated. You will work in the sewer line, you will install electric cables, you will butcher animals in the slaughter house, you will carry the roof tiles.
It's amazing Americans say shit like this while they sit around and watch their infrastructure crumble.
>>2489139>Literally everyone I know (doctors, teachers, mechanics etc) fucking loathe working and would never do that voluntarily.this is because westoids are lazy and your volk can only truly enjoy onlyfans
doctors, teachers, engineers in the rest of the world respect, value, and love their work
(Idpol brain damage) >>2489549super true
they won't work but they demand their funko pops and fast internet access
Anti-work americans is just code for 'the Chinese, Bangladeshis, and vietnamese are my slaves and should work for my comfort'.
>>2489531It may not work this way, idk. How about we all stop eating at home and just go eat at a pub? We spend time freed by automation to that, but it is still labor. We expand dishes to include everything it is possible to eat. WHich will require lots of people to do cooking, we make it a show, a show of robots is no fun, etc. We make more tv series to watch meanwhile, more and more of it, etc funny things so we allocate 30% labor to that. etc. We make work day 14 hours, to make all that. We make a new Tesla every 3 month and just throw away an old one when the mood changes. etc. Why this will not happen?
You may say no one wants to work 14 h/day, but you will be a commedian, next day a funny dish manipulator, next day you will assemble a cool Tesla! ??? If you like this shit, why will you be against working 14 h?
>>2489570Seethe and cope you alienated retard
>The worker feels to be himself outside work and feels outside himself when working. He is at home when he does not work. When he works, he is not at home. As a result, his work is forced labour, not voluntary labour. Forced labour is not the satisfaction of a need but only a means for satisfying needs outside labour. Its foreignness appears in that labour is avoided as a plague as soon as no physical or other force exists.
>Labour, by its very nature is unfree, unhuman, unsocial activity, determined by private property and creating private property. Hence the abolition of private property will become a reality only when it is conceived as the abolition of labour.
>But that labour itself, not merely in present conditions but insofar as its purpose in general is the mere increase of wealth – that labour itself, I say, is harmful and pernicious – follows from the political economist’s line of argument, without his being aware of it. >>2489558How will you eliminate consumerism? I've read Marx, commodity fetish does not seem to be anyhow about that. The commodity production, etc.. how less work time follows from aboloshing it? I do not see why they will change the work day to 4 h. I'm just not sure anymore. I see no one is criticizing consumerism, very few stay for less work hours.
>>2489559Will not it be: I want a new Tesla, you want free time, how will this be solved? I'm not sure labor producitivty alone is enough. Take welding. They made welding robots to reduce the number of errors human welders made. But labor migrated to tasks where error is less important.
>>2489584Ok, I will try to explain. I was reading about commodity form, In critique, first chapter.
So a producer make things not for himself to consume, he want to exchange that for things he can't make. … etc, the producers find the ratios of exchange of things, that match labor spent in making them.
With that, idk if I'm right, but if they agree it is labor time, they unite production, they no longer need money, they use labor time.
So they see that to make a Tesla by a consumerist plant, he should spend some time of his life. Which he may find not ok. He simply will see what his consumer life cost him.
But it is a hope.. not a law. He might be ok with that.
>>2489600/plant/plan/
Although, do not workers already know what it cost them, that not much left of their life? They do not see the whole thing, idk.
But also the exchange seem right if you use labor time. And so it somehow seem wrong: I need your product x1, but I do not agree with working as long.. He is getting at work in his average but labor intensive car. The cost of the product he make and I need, will include the cost that car. Right? So while he spent say 100 h on making the thing I need, I spent the same hours, but I use a bus..
ANyway, automation itself is shit and likely will not make life better.
>>2489574he is talking about wage slavery under class society
Marx envisions work becoming a natural function of the evolved Homo sapiens, which happens concurrently as humanity tends to communism, after the overthrow of the rule of capital and towards the end of the DotP stage
you only read and quote Marx, try to understand him
Marx really overestimated the intelligence of his readers
>>2489153I saw that pdf here before
can you send me the link please?
>>2489540I work at the slaughterhouse (chicken "production" facility), and you're correct that this is not entirely automated, but you'd probably be surprised to the extent that it is. Frankly we could probably bring the whole human labor of our operation, which is largely outdated compared to industry standard, to around 100 people on a shift (we produce 540 thousand birds a shift at our plant). Those jobs could be mostly skilled labor positions and relatively interesting. Modern cut up lines require very little actual human involvement. The main pain points are hanging live birds onto the kill lines, manually inspecting the birds and processes (biocide application, cut up accuracy, organ removal verification, bacterial counts) and rehanging the birds on the cut up lines post chilling. Two of those steps, hanging live birds and rehanging chilled birds, could be automated but currently implementing a machine to do these tasks costs the capitalist more than paying an "unskilled" laborer to destroy their body doing them. Often these workers will develop various forms of repetitive stress and musculoskeletal injury during their careers. It's what I started off doing and my hands still ache some days. A machine to put these birds on the shackles is theoretically possible with current technology but there is no will to fund the creation of such a machine, even if in the long term it would provide greater profits. In live hanging specifically this machine would have to be certified by many agencies and likely have a similar number of attendants as they currently employ hangers to ensure animal welfare laws are followed. These hangers will hang 15 birds a minute minimum at our plant. rehangers are required to hang 33 birds a minute. These are workers with a legal right to work in America at our plant. Illegal labor is, as an industry, mostly relegated to third party sanitation companies at this point.
In a communist society, even if we choose to continue producing chicken, many of these jobs could be eliminated and the ones that would be left would be mostly tolerable. I can tell you that I personally would continue to work in the slaughterhouse to produce food to feed my fellow worker if all of my own needs were being met. You would not need very many people to be willing to do so to provide our product to the whole of society, especially if our use of that product simultaneous to the advancement in production became more efficient and less wasteful. I think you're probably right that we wouldn't be able to eliminate compensation for work in 10 years but the current state of production does not actually show the technological capacity our society has for automation. The idea that the capitalist efficiently increases production is not actually true. The capitalist maximizes profits. These are not the same thing.
>>2489858>>2489809capitalists:
>work in my factory or diecommunists:
<work in the people's factory or die >>2489809The five heads of communism (PICSREL)
>>2489863Yes you get it. The people's factory is all of ubermenschen-kind's interests for the planned development (transhumanism) towards sciences instead of liberal slopciety.
>>2489875All Cockshott pictures have to be blurry
All Cockshott audio has to be Russian CSGO mic quality
A true humble communist !
High production images and audio are bourgeois.
>>24899202003 fma ain’t canon
Brotherhood or manga is the way to go
>>2489975ill be honest, I dont remember any of them
it's been too long
>>2489944>FMA BrotherhoodIshvala = Palestine
Emestria Homunculus Occupied Government = Israel/America
>>2490193I don't know what you mean then.
>>2490302Better at being inferior yes.
>>2490768its not a time travel, its a parallel universe (and not exactly ours either)
in which one do creating the philosopher stone require a mass sacrifice? its one of the thing I remember as being good (narratively)
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