[ home / rules / faq / search ] [ overboard / sfw / alt ] [ leftypol / edu / labor / siberia / lgbt / latam / hobby / tech / games / anime / music / draw / AKM ] [ meta ] [ wiki / shop / tv / tiktok / twitter / patreon ] [ GET / ref / marx / booru ]

/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

"The anons of the past have only shitposted on the Internet about the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it."
Name
Options
Subject
Comment
Flag
File
Embed
Password(For file deletion.)

Not reporting is bourgeois


 

What if industrialisation and capitalism started in the Muslim world instead of the West? How would a communism born in the Islamic world be? Would the Islamic world just be like Europe, or would the Islamic nucleus give us a significantly different capitalism, and thus a significantly different critique (communism) of that capitalism?
No shitposters allowed; formulate your thoughts clearly.

Wouldn't work;

Islam says the same about capitalism as what it says about socialism, they are both man-made systems that include many ideas that are contrary to the provisions set by Allah to govern people's economic interactions. The Islamic legislation is the system that must govern such interaction.

There are many things I can cover such as the Prohibition of Interest (Riba) Ethical Conduct in Business Transactions, and Warning Against Hoarding and Greed and Importance of Earning Halal (Lawful) Income. But I am tired of having these type of conversation.

Capitalism at its core is debt base/free markets which is haram in Muslim culture.

>>2492486
Yeah but you are assuming if the Islamic state industrialised first, Islam would be untouched.
I am thinking more about he evolution of Islam as well, maybe it would become a smol bean like Christianity in Europe, or even disappear completely?

>>2492489
What's the point of assuming? As I stated before, the Islamic legislation wouldn't allow it anyway. Why discuss hypotheticals that will or won't ever happen?

>I am thinking more about he evolution of Islam as well

Read the history of the Ottoman Empire as they practice the Millet System, which I'd would argue it had exhibited some characteristics of capitalism, such as trade and manufacturing, but it did not fully develop a capitalist economy.

/thread

>>2492486
>There are many things I can cover such as the Prohibition of Interest (Riba) Ethical Conduct in Business Transactions, and Warning Against Hoarding and Greed and Importance of Earning Halal (Lawful) Income. But I am tired of having these type of conversation.

If you know dialmat and histmat, this blows the premise out of the water. Look at history of capitalism and you can see capitalism had no chance in islam. Also capitalism killed religion in the west more than anything really.

>>2492529
>the Islamic legislation wouldn't allow it anyway
thats retarded thinking, because christian legislation initially didnt allow it either (hence the frequent use of jews for banking jobs at first).
If the material interest of the ruling classes is in favor of ignoring some religious rule, then it will eventually be ignored

>characteristics of capitalism, such as trade and manufacturing

those arent "characteristics of capitalism"

>/thread

only a retard do this to his own stupid post


>>2492533
>this blows the premise out of the water
if you think the superstructure will overrule the material basis for long, you didnt understood dialmat and histmat

>capitalism killed religion in the west more than anything

completely wrong, protestants were a major driver of capitalism, and the US today is still very religious
religion was hurt (and not killed) by the rise of state power that didnt like to share power with the christian church on one hand, and the downfall of god justified nobility and royalty. In france in particular, christianity being on the side of royalty and against the republic is what lead to the stifling of its power


>>2492470
things would certainly be a bit different culturally but at its core things would remain the same. Anyway, what if on this magnitude are kind of unproductive, there are plenty of material reasons for how history developed, and we cant ever know what would be if things were this radically different.

>>2492566
You said absolutely nothing about anything. Good job jackass.

>industrialization
That already existed. In the late 1700s, Mughal India’s various Nawabates (especially Bengal) had significant industry. They had a large ship building, iron industry, workshops, and small factories. The Ottoman Empire was roughly comparable with Europe at the time, but faced serious economic downturns after the Treaty of Balta Liman flooded the Middle East and Balkans with cheap British imports. Egypt under Muhammad Ali Pasha also imported sophisticated industrial equipment from Europe for state run monopolies and factories.

>Would the Islamic world just be like Europe

It’s probably unlikely that European style capitalism would have developed anywhere outside of Europe. It’s not like capitalism was some inevitable development either. China or the Islamic empires might have evolved economic systems in an entirely different direction.

Some central features of European legal systems and property regimes just aren’t there in Islamic law. Sharia doesn’t have a concept of cooperate personality. Cooperations didn’t exist. It also lacks the same concept of liberal private property (anything and everything can be owned and ownership means it belongs to an individual or a cooperate individual). It’s possible Islamic law might have adopted these concepts from Euros at some point, but it’s also possible they would have developed along an an entirely different path. Given how private property and cooperate personality are integral to capitalism, it’s difficult imaging how a capitalist system could exist without them.

The ethical thrust of capital, which Weber credited to Calvinism, doesn’t exist either. There was no cult of productivity in Islamic culture pre-colonization.

>>2492489
Many bourgeois secularists were Hegelians. They believed that industrial science and technology would allow humanity to realize the Christian heaven on earth, thus eliminating the need for a transcendent Christianity which is now reduced to a private personal choice.

Well, that’s fine if your heaven is basically a happy land of no suffering and abundance. But the Quranic vision of heaven is basically an endless orgy with multiple women and twinks in gardens. Its even more implausible and unrealizable. So the theological structure would have to be completely different.

It’s safe to say that capitalism could only have evolved in Europe and is only global today because of 19th century imperialism integrating the entire planet into a capitalist world market.

Islam isn’t pro-communist. It’s pro-feudal.

File: 1758657962418.gif (1.94 MB, 480x292, 1652761251224.gif)

>>2492751
>It’s pro-feudal.

>>2492751
Never said it’s pro communist. But it’s not like feudal europe was pro capitalism, even less pro commie. I’m asking what you think capitalism and subsequently communism would be like if they were born in the Islamic world instead.

>>2492710
Do you have any reading on Mughal and Ottoman industry? I'm in the dark about those in comparison to Egypt under Ali Pasha and his successor(s).

>>2492751
Same with christianity, judaism, hinduism, buddhism. I guess the only outstander is paganism which is pre-feudal tribal savage retardation.

>>2492938
>I’m asking what you think capitalism and subsequently communism would be like if they were born in the Islamic world instead.
See Gadaffi's Libya for the both of them - capitalist and bourgeois socialism.

>>2492486
But so is cristianity. In particular, the church would limit the interest rate (otherwise it was usury) and have some wealth redistribution via taxes and charity. I don't think those islamic institutions would have held much water either

>>2493253 (me)

>>2492566
>>capitalism killed religion in the west more than anything
>completely wrong, protestants were a major driver of capitalism, and the US today is still very religious
religion was hurt (and not killed) by the rise of state power that didnt like to share power with the christian church on one hand, and the downfall of god justified nobility and royalty. In france in particular, christianity being on the side of royalty and against the republic is what lead to the stifling of its power
I disagree though. Today the west isn't really religious, even in the USA; what ended up happening instead was the complete subjugation of religion to capital. Christianity went from an agent and ruler lf society to a completely subordinated institution

File: 1758694761614.png (549.19 KB, 1200x750, ClipboardImage.png)

>>2493262
Nooo why are you awake at european time? GO TO SLEEP, I HAVE TO TERROR LARP TO SCARE THE MLOIDS ON ANOTHER THREAD, DON'T YOU DELETE IT, DON'T DISABLE TOR ON THE MAIN BOARD, GO TO SLEEP.

I believe that the large number of nomads in and around the Muslim world from the late medieval to the early modern periods would be a greater stamp on "Islamic capitalism" and criticism of it than the religion itself. In that respect, you might have some people pointing to the nomads as kinds of communal societies (to retvrn to or to advance the spirit of), similar to what people did/do with ""free"" agricultural communities.
Therefore, communist movements in the Islamic world would spend much effort in working out how to protect and advance communal control of the herds to keep the lower rungs of the nomadic groups united with the urban/rural proles and low peasants.

>>2493272
…what

>>2492486
pic related assumes muslim dudes have 4 wives but still fuck goats but the truth is that the guys with 4 wives don't need to fuck goats and for every guy with 4 wives there are 3 guys with 0 wives who fuck goats.

Exactly the same shit

>>2493329
Trvke
Dudes converting to Islam think they gonna have 4 pussies, when most probably they’ll have zero

>>2493329
Bro, not fucking goats is bourgeois.

>>2493329
Shitttt, polygamy fucking sucks man.


Unique IPs: 12

[Return][Go to top] [Catalog] | [Home][Post a Reply]
Delete Post [ ]
[ home / rules / faq / search ] [ overboard / sfw / alt ] [ leftypol / edu / labor / siberia / lgbt / latam / hobby / tech / games / anime / music / draw / AKM ] [ meta ] [ wiki / shop / tv / tiktok / twitter / patreon ] [ GET / ref / marx / booru ]