One can be sexist against men. Patriarchal society is institutionally sexist against men despite the benefits it provides. Gender liberationists acknowledge this and understand how feminist movements have also broadly benefited men.
One can be racist against 'white' people. 'White' supremacist society is institutionally harmful to 'whites' despite the benefits it provides. Anti-racists acknowledge this and understand how anti-racist movements have also broadly benefited 'whites'.
One can be classist against the bourgeoisie. Capitalist society is institutionally harmful to the bourgeoisie despite the benefits it provides. Socialists acknowledge this and understand how socialist movements have also broadly benefited the owning class.
Whether these prejudices are necessary or justified is a personal opinion. However, it is absurd and hilarious to pretend, for a common example, "you can't be racists against white people". This slogan signals denial, a post-liberalist rationalization, based on the idealist assumption that "racism is bad because uuhh it just is", and that they don't see themselves as bad, that their racism is therefore not racism. Instead, we must understand why racism is harmful to society, both institutional racism and other forms.
For another example, classism may be rationalized by oversimplifying the class tendency for the bourgeoisie to preserve their superiority. Perhaps a proletarian revolution, under the pressures of counterrevolution, may unfortunately resort to some form of classicide when circumstances don't give us the opportunity for nuance. This is not ideal, we know many heroic traitors of the bourgeois class who have sided with the proletarian movement. But it may be justified or rationalized when circumstances force it. For example, the regicide of the Romanovs was a tactically beneficial action. We've seen historical cases where royalty have rejected their title and privilege, but due to circumstances, the Bolsheviks would have been irresponsible to let the Romanovs live simply for this possibility, while on the other hand, the CPC were responsible to let Puyi live. Perhaps, if there were not an ongoing royalist civil war, the Romanovs could have been given a similar fate…
Cis people sure do struggle to focus on economics, huh?
>>2495997God I fucking despised anfem and misandrist anon – sub human fascist filth that uphold the patriarchy by doing black crime statistics but for men – even they wouldnt stoop as low as racism against white people.
>>2496049Gets hard for them when their circles are just one gender, and it's just dogma after dogma and reactions to dogma.
>>2495997this is a good post anon, do you mind if I save it?
>>2495997>One can be sexist against menIve been trying really hard but its not happening. What else must I do?
>>2495997There's a section of the program of the Communist Party USA that I think is pretty sharp about this:
>The ideology of gender inequality and misogyny is another potent weapon against unity within the working class and between the working class and the people’s movements. Sexism causes working-class women to suffer additional forms of oppression and exploitation. Capitalists gain extra profits as a result of the gender pay gap—hundreds of billions of dollars each year. They also gain greater profits when male supremacy helps capitalists divide male and female workers, weakening the struggle for all workers’ rights. As a result, working-class women, men, and families suffer reduced incomes.
>Although women now make up almost half of the workforce, the gender stratification of the job market ensures that many women are relegated to the lowest paying, least secure jobs. As a result, more women and children are pushed into poverty. Cuts in social welfare programs and rapidly increasing healthcare and housing costs hit single mothers and their children especially hard. Women of oppressed groups, including LGBTQ+ and women of color, can be hit even harder.
>Working-class women of color are subject to extra-exploitation on the basis of gender as well as race and class, which adds to individual and collective suffering. Race and/or sexual orientation can become a dividing factor among women, and gender and/or sexuality can divide communities of color. The working-class and people’s movements must work to bridge such divides, respecting differences and participating in the struggle for the democratic and civil rights of all. In the movement, we have to ensure that all voices are heard and the participation of women, including in leadership, is encouraged.
>Women continue to be compelled to shoulder, on an unpaid basis, most childcare and domestic labor (work in the home). Access to quality, affordable day care remains extremely limited. Changes in domestic arrangements have not kept pace with the increased prevalence of women working full-time, which has added to the difficulties of and demands on women’s lives. Women face special challenges in balancing family and work, especially when managing the added responsibilities that come with being an activist. It is especially important for childcare to be provided so that women can participate fully in activities and play leadership roles.
>Additional forms of oppression women experience are attacks on their reproductive rights and domestic and sexual harassment and violence. These forms of oppression are valid reasons for immigrant women to request amnesty. The extreme right has launched an ideological attack on women’s roles in society and the family. The extreme right is trying to force women to carry unwanted pregnancies to term and to revert to a submissive role. It wants women to be limited to taking care of the family and children and seeks to assign blame for the high rates of divorce and poverty on women. This “blame the victim” approach seeks to divert attention from the system that oppresses women along with all workers.
>The treatment of women as sexual objects brings additional profits to the capitalists. A misogynist culture, which includes pornography, violent video games, and human trafficking, demeans all human beings, but especially women, and contributes to sexist and abusive attitudes in the home, workplace, and online. Courageous women have launched the “#Me Too” movement to draw attention to the widespread prevalence of sexual harassment, assault, and the embrace of rape in capitalist culture. In addition to the personal harm they inflict, such behaviors limit women’s freedom and effectiveness in the public sphere and warp the full development of both men and women.
>The special oppression of women cuts across class lines. This cross-class oppression means that women play a progressive role as a social group. Partnerships between national women’s organizations, the labor movement, and other progressive organizations are important in building the all-people’s front against the extreme right.
>Today, more women are accepting leadership roles and running for political office—and winning on issues of broad appeal, such as jobs, healthcare, and housing, and their special experiences as women are increasingly valued. Women of all ages are playing creative, important, high-profile roles in the struggle for democracy, including robust movements for equality and against gun violence, police brutality, and racial profiling. Women are leading fights for public schools, public unions, free universal childcare, and for the rights of all.
>Working-class men must realize that childcare, domestic work, and equal wages are not just women’s issues; they are issues that affect everyone. They have an important role to play in leading other men to combat gender discrimination and inequality. They should speak out when they see gender discrimination and advocate in a way that wins other men to the fight for gender equality. They should take an initiating role in combating all instances of sexism and male supremacy in the labor and people’s movements as well as in the family. Women need and deserve an equal place as elected officials, and in the ranks and in the leadership of the labor movement, the people’s mass democratic movements, and in the Communist Party.
>Working-class men have a strong self-interest in this project. Whether subtle or overt, the capitalist culture of male supremacy and misogyny is a barrier to collective activity and struggle. This culture creates an environment in which especially working-class men experience pressure to conform to ruling-class ideology.
>The effort to develop equality, full respect, and trust gives men the opportunity to understand how women’s experiences under capitalism promote mutual interests and a stake in a better world. The working class otherwise loses the valuable contributions women make. Half of all human potential is lost when women are excluded or when their participation is limited or stunted. Also, people whose thinking is clouded by male supremacy, misogyny, and racism cannot have clear, reliable insights into the dynamics of social inequality, oppression, and exploitation. In addition to hurting women and limiting human progress, such attitudes hurt the men whose thinking and behavior they distort. Greater principled unity between working-class men and women means greater victories for the whole of the working class. A working-class conscious of and aligned with the fight for women’s equality is a working class that can unleash its full power in every arena. >>2496504>A misogynist culture, which includes pornography, violent video games, and human trafficking, demeans all human beings,Including porn and videogames, with human trafficking – is impressively dishonest.
The first 2 at worst you need to think critically, 3rd one is something that should be ended.
>Courageous women have launched the “#Me Too” movement to draw attention to the widespread prevalence of sexual harassmentYeah and it was done horrible to the extent that founder has stepped away from it.
Plus its anti-men aspect has been called out by non-american feminists like the ones in France – which the movement, which already deeply struggles with taking criticism, ignores that moment or handwaves them as "handmaidens".
The only reason why I'd listen to those women now is not because I listened to them, but because during self studying communist material I realized that bare minimum that those moments where more of the power positions, so on a probability the woman would probably be a victim.
I just highlight this since failures to recognize this stuff usually leads to "anti"-sexism ideology (like
>>2496447 )
that just argues biological existentialism, and that solution is goddess societies.
As a result they deeply struggle to approach men since they hallucinate an idea of what men are like, and then generally just make excuses to give up in approaching them.
Instead of arguing for decentering males from the men gender spook, and just realize their own uniqueness – just was you decenter white people from whiteness.
Saging thread since I realized that maybe I should've let the thread die last night.
>>2496504They're sharp on many of the ways patriarchal capitalist society disadvantages women and some of the results, although they're soft on extrapolating these disadvantages to how they affect all other workers - it's mentioned a couple of times and it's great to see they did, but it could, and should, be sharper and more pervasive, to clarify that we are not merely fighting for womens' liberation out of moral obligation or pity, but out of mutual interest to lift up the sky.
>It is especially important for childcare to be provided so that women can participate fully in activities and play leadership roles.By whom? Do the CPUSA offer childcare service anywhere? (Honest question)
>>2496887>Including porn and videogames, with human trafficking – is impressively dishonest.I think it's a valid point poorly made. Culture does include art, we shouldn't overlook it, especially considering how much more pervasive it is than human trafficking.
Generally agree but socialism is classicide of bourgeoisie (and proletariat) the owners will benefit as they get emancipated from the opressor positions, but the owning class is to disapear.
Also the SRs killed the Romanov, IIRC the bolsheviks planned to judge them.
>>2495997So sexism and racism divides the working class but not the bourgeoisie? How convenient. They get to have all the fun.
>Capitalist society is institutionally harmful to the bourgeoisie despite the benefits it provides.What's the argument here? I think Hegel had a bit about how slavery dehumanizes the master but that just sounds like cope. If it was so bad the masters wouldn't have defended it tooth and nail. Who doesn't love ordering people around and being treated like a god? People get a little hit of that with service workers and it's like heroin.
What's next? Feudalism was actually bad for the lords?
>>2500600>What's the argument here? I think Hegel had a bit about how slavery dehumanizes the master but that just sounds like copeNo, it's more about how the capitalist system fucks them over too. There's a lot of ways.
A few examples:
Liberalism systematically tends towards unregulated production, opening everyone up to all kinds of health risks.
Capitalism induces environmental damage, making food production more expensive and lower quality (incl. nutritionally)
Face full of ads all the time.
Poverty-striken people are motivated to attack them or their means of income.
Constantly being scammed by other booj just like the rest of us. They don't somehow avoid price gouging.
>>2500689
"Systems" aren't some metaphysical existence isolated from individuals, they depend on individuals to maintain and propagate them.
>>2496887Gamers! They targeted Gamers!
How many of this thread do we need?
>>2495997>how feminist movements have also broadly benefited men.Such as?
Seems it's more the reverse that feminist movements have broadly hurt women.
>paragraphs of identity politics shit
Don't care I'm here to organize the working class qua working class. Pet issues should be roundly ignored
>>2500755Noooo. Feminism is like this close to solving everything. We still live under a patriarchy, but if we just get like 20% more girl bosses, the patriarchy will be ended at which point we're going to like ban porn or something? Declare sex work isn't real work?
Something like that.
I like how feminism = whatever I personalyl believe as a woman.
A woman who is against women being sexualized = feminism
A woman who believes women should be free to express their sexuality and be sexualized = feminism
It's the most brain-dead "philosophy' ever created.
>>2500757Ok, go back farther and look at the change in pornography laws and first second third wave whatever feminism.
>>2500761>stop talking about wages! the feminists of straw I'm fighting only care about porn!okay chud, you guys are like "imma organize the working class" and then not organize the working class and cry about degeneracy or women or trans or some shit. always the same with "anti idpol" retards
>>2500766You were replying to my post you fucking retard.
>>2500748>Isn't it kind of funny that the rise of pornography and the rise of feminism go hand in hand, but that's somehow still "patriarchy"I clarified it for you.
>>2500761 >stop talking about wages! the feminists of straw I'm fighting only care about porn!If you're replying to a specific statement I made, that's what we're talking about you absolute moron.
>We're turning women into turbo sluts for your own good, Chud!
>>2500754>feminist women actually don't like any manIt's funny how you guys always seem to inexplicably veer straight into romance and dating and relationships whenever you try to talk about women or feminism, no matter what the context of the discussion is. Why don't you just wear a t-shirt that says "LONELY MAN"
>>2500770That's feminism. But also that's patriarchy.
I wasn't the one who even brought up video games or pornography. Forgive me that the discussion immediately goes to the most retarded subjects imaginable. But that is the nature of "feminism."
>>2496504>A misogynist culture, which includes pornography, violent video games, and human trafficking, demeans all human beings,>no fun allowed
can women just fuck off forever
ITT grown male nerd children air out their mommy issues
>>2500789We're all girls with daddy issues here sweaty. ;)
>>2500773Pathetic comeback anon.
>>2500777And how would we have fun if they do?
So redpill me on feminism. What kind of feminist stuff am I supposed to be doing? I guess looking for non-feminist men to chastise them until they convert?
There's a song called Girls Just Wanna Have Fun and everyone loves it but if a guy wrote Boys Just Wanna Have Fun he would probably be cancelled and accused of rape because of feminism and romance is meaningless anyway I don't even care anymore.
>>2500766fwiw my irl org (part of an international) is anti-idpol, even the non-white women, but the org is nothing like the Online Left retards.
Touching grass and books are the best thing I ever did. The people online
the most are often the ones society ostracized for being too fucking batshit to be useful. Any regular on the Matrix chats are downright /lumpypol/.
>>2496504Literally a social democratic party btw, imagine actually reading this shit and believing it.
>>2500748Whos the first and last chick? Please. Yes I know its inappropriate considering this topic, but please.
>>2501082Sophie Rain
Megan Thee Stallion
>>2495997>Whether these prejudices are necessary or justified is a personal opinion. However, it is absurd and hilarious to pretend, for a common example, "you can't be racists against white people". This slogan signals denial, a post-liberalist rationalization, based on the idealist assumption that "racism is bad because uuhh it just is", and that they don't see themselves as bad, that their racism is therefore not racism. Instead, we must understand why racism is harmful to society, both institutional racism and other forms.I mean in even simpler terms: you get what you give. If you (as an individual) treat someone with respect then reciprocity is to be expected—treat someone like shit and they’ll shovel shit at you.
What’s really funny is you’ll see all this academic jargon applied, in my experience at least, to say “Well you’re not
allowed to be annoyed.” That’s ultimately how the whole “you can’t be sexist against men/racist against white people” stuff read in liberal discourse. It was basically like sovereign citizens logic: “yes officer I was drunk, behind the wheel of a car, with an expired license and no plates, but you see I was
traveling!“
It’s pedantry. The Right of course does it too whenever they awkwardly have to address class—Jeff Bezos isn’t Jewish, but so widely hated as a figure of corporate greed that they’ll try to say they oppose him because he’s “spiritually Jewish” (only if you call them out on liking him)
>it is absurd and hilarious to pretend "you can't be racists against white people"Not an argument, facts don't care about your feelings
>classism this word always makes me think liberals are trying to retroactively recuperate the Marxist conception of class war as just mere bigotry
>For example, the regicide of the Romanovs was a tactically beneficial actionwtf is this thread?????????
>>2500750neoliberal redditor web comics are haram
>>2501139>Not an argumentOf course that's not an argument. Are you an idiot or something?
>this word always makes me think liberals are trying to retroactively recuperate the Marxist conception of class war as just mere bigotryUnderstandable concern. But it's clear this thread isn't suggesting equivalence between economic class, sex or race. And the thread goes out of its way to point out that class war isn't some simple bigoted 'kill all booj' nonsense.
You can’t prove that sexism and gender inequality or anti-LGBT shit are solely the fault of capitalism or some nefarious ideology used to divide the working class. Yet another area where vulgar Marxist economic determinism fails.
>This slogan signals denial, a post-liberalist rationalization, based on the idealist assumption that "racism is bad because uuhh it just is"
Seems to me that leftist types suffer from a real deficit when it comes to ethical principles and their response to this exact thing is making some utilitarian argument. But that kind of weak rationalism can also be used to justify the opposite.
>>2500689
>Capitalists and any dominant class are slaves to the maintenance of their own rule
The poor dears. They must be miserable.
>>2496447You’ll lose your 12 belgian boys like this
>>2500735Cry about it, Liberal
>>2500691Can they just drop the system?
Just collectively drop it and switch to a fairer system?
All individual actors that don't know how others think, in a system that deeply rewards psychopathic tendencies?
>>2505927Because you're arguing a moral framework that the system's functioning is purely tied to their feelings, no ability to consider social engineering.
>>2505507Do you actually think they're
happy?
This is a sincere question.
>>2505690Surprisingly bad post from bloodgasm :(
>>2506113Yes they're having a ball. Yes I know you're gonna cope about how you only need $75,000 to be happy according to some study or that the happiest people in the world actually live in mud huts in South America. Capitalists love the luxury and power and traveling to exotic locales doing whatever the fuck it is at those weird parties. If there's anything difficult they hire someone to do it for them. The idea they're actually miserable and money doesn't buy happiness is good ol fashioned propaganda and religious moralizing. If you don't believe your eyes and love studies here's one:
https://money.com/rich-people-are-happier-study/
>In other words, ultra-rich people are, in fact, far happier than people with modest incomes in the $70,000 to $80,000 range — the level historically associated with the happiness plateau. And modest-income earners are happier than those who earn less than them, too. >>2506293How does it compare to Indian oppression in South Africa and its complications?
Men are oppressed by the patriarchy, and generally their class position, but still have some benefits over women – just like how Indians were oppressed in South America but not as much as Blacks – is it justifies to go "Kill the Boer" on men because they have it slightly better?
That's the actual type of question.
>>2505690There's clearly different types of reactionarism.
Your sexism against men point for instance, if you dont wanna call it sexism, then do you just call discrimination?
And since it's NOT sexism and instead a discrimination, would you call it justified?
Like discrimination against men since of trauma?
Or the one where they hate men so much that they attack trans people and defend child rape to attack men – all of which defends the patriarchy like… Sexism? What the feminism???
Of course I'm messing with you, sexism is systematic, but the child rape defending feminists are the type to appropriate from feminists arguing for anti-sexism discrimination and are also generally defended in the broader movement (atleast allowed to be heard of) – but dont worry, it's just venting dont think too much into embrace the rape of feminism :)
>>2506314Other than the emptiness of the money and being unable to be friends with anyone other than psychopathic rich people, sure they're happier since they're the only ones to have their needs really met.
Besides, that guys point doesnt really matter, bigger point made by Hegel was that it's a dialect where they both rely on each other and cant just be separated, it's not like a online video game where you can leave mid match.
Marx highlights this in explaining that capital exploits are human nature and pushes us to hoard for that reason, hence why billionaires hoard, they just become sociopaths over time to justify their unfair unfair advantage (like in the monopoly study).
Bourgeois feminism bad. Good feminism indistinguishable from communism. End of story.
unironic misandry should just not be taken seriously at all besides 95% of cis "misandrists" are TERFs that throw shitfits because they saw a woman with broad shoulders use the woman's bathroom
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