What is your opinion on Marx‘s and Engels‘ more crass ideas about so called Völkerabfall and the two‘s sincere belief that they will be wiped out and that this outcome is desirable? I think it‘s kind of a cop out to just say those are deprecated ideas we no longer touch upon. What is the reason for why this idea should be rejected?
<“Among all the nations and peoples of Austria only three are capable of life … the Germans, the Magyars and the Poles. All the other small pig-headed nations — the Völkerabfälle of a thousand years — will be wiped off the earth.”
<“The next world war will result in the disappearance from the face of the earth not only of reactionary classes and dynasties, but also of entire reactionary peoples. And that too is a step forward.”
Engels, Neue Rheinische Zeitung, 13 January 1849
<“We repeat: the Slavs are a reactionary mass, and therefore will be annihilated in the coming revolutionary storm. For in the whole world there has not been a single revolution without a mass slaughter.”
<“Peoples which have never had a history of their own … are left to rot in the ruins of history. They must perish in the revolutionary world storm.”
Engels, Neue Rheinische Zeitung, February 1849
its not too different from standard victorian thinking
darwin in his "descent of man" for instance suggests that negroes are closer siblings to gorillas than caucasians and implies that there will be an inevitable policy of eugenics against other humanoids.
>What is the reason for why this idea should be rejected?
the genocide of ethnic enclaves? because its immoral
>>2516103>they will be wiped out and that this outcome is desirableall cultures are getting "wiped out" with communism brah (and thats a good thing)
>>2516123engels is specifying "mass slaughter" in case you missed that part
>>2516125And? Are you triggered? The only thing Engels got wrong was switching the groups. Slavs are progressive. Poles and Germans are reactionary.
>>2516132>and?i dont think its ethical to murder millions of innocent people because they arent industrialising fast enough for some factory owner's liking.
>>2516103for one, they do not prescribe that we should pursue their destruction as policy out of principle, but that this will be the necessary result of their reactionary opposition to revolution or of the development of modern states.
second, that they were partly right (many small "nations" were absorbed into the bigger entities and disappeared) and partly wrong (didnt happen in a big global revolutionary war)
all this is just irrelevant now so I dont see the point in bringing it up except for advanced baiting purposes
>>2516134Nobody cares about the factory owner’s liking. We are talking about the Wheel of History.
>>2516164"history" is a western abstraction which has enslaved the globe. reject history.
>>2516168postmodern schizo nonsense. the only good thing jordan peterson ever did was to call out maoist third worldists as retarded.
>>2516170where is this thing you call "history"?
its all in your head.
>>2516116But it is also immoral disown someone from their possessions, yet you don‘t complain about that.
>>2516141>for one, they do not prescribe that we should pursue their destruction as policy out of principleIf you just read Marx‘s and Engels‘ writings you can tell that they hater the people they saw as regressive. They don‘t have to explicitly say it, you can just tell that they’ve transmuted their personal desire into a descriptive fact of supposed causality.
>second, that they were partly right (many small "nations" were absorbed into the bigger entities and disappeared) and partly wrong (didnt happen in a big global revolutionary war)Their idea isbn‘t just about nations being absorbed, it‘s about the mass killings of people resistant to historic progress.
>>2516173>where is this thing you call "history"?the emancipation of humanity via class struggle overthrowing archaic modes of production
>>2516177>NOOOO YOU CAN'T FREE MY SLAVEScry harder slaveowner
I deal with it by feeling a lot more comfortable with the various frustrated and/or unserious shitposts I’ve made over the years knowing Marx and Engles were human also.
>>2516114>>2516103Exactly, it’s just antiquated thinking due to not having the power of seeing the future.Also no one is free from reactionary thinking but that doesn’t mean you throw the baby out with the bath water. We don’t reject newtons mathematics because he also dabbled in schizophrenic numerology shit,
>>2516114>>2516192You don‘t reject a claim just because you don‘t like the supposed outcome. It either is or isn‘t true.
>>2516195It obviously wasn’t true though, the Germans were the arch reactionaries of ww2 and the Slavs were repping communism. It’s also just reactionary thinking to believe that certain races are like cultural or biological only capable of communism or revolution.
>>2516187>the emancipation of humanity via class struggleemancipation? where?
>>2516195darwin was wrong. engels was wrong.
Marx and Engels were mere mortal men limited by the knowledge and culture of their time. They were not prophets and we should regard anything they say critically, even the good parts. They would also tell you as much. Do not regard their word as final on anything, but as a stepstone to a better understanding. This is what scientific socialism is supposed to be doing.
>>2516201was engels wrong in what he said?
>>2516199>It obviously wasn’t true though, the Germans were the arch reactionaries of ww2 and the Slavs were repping communism.You are confusing two things here. It's about whether or not Völkerabfall is a concept that describes something real which is not to be mistaken with the error of falsely labeling a people as Völkerabfall when they weren't. The idea also needn't be based on genetics, it may just be that an interplay of historic materialism and geographic determinism produces the sociological outcome of a people remaining historically stuck.
>>2516209according to classical western imperialism, genociding the native americans and enslaving africans was progressive since these people were Völkerabfall. do you agree with this idea?
>>2516201But nobody said to dogmatically believe everything they said, it's about if the idea of Völkerabfälle is wrong and why. So far people here drew false transitive conclusions or reject the idea for moral reasons when that doesn't prove that the concept is wrong.
>>2516215answer this question:
>>2516212 The 19th century was the peak era of scientific racism in Western culture and unfortunately Marx and Engels were just as much a product of their time as other enlightened thinkers of the era.
>>2516212Marx and Engels literally believed that as well, lol. That I would personally dislike such a claim wouldn't make it wrong. Stop beating around the bush and simply explain how the idea is wrong.
>>2516216Yes. Now explain how the concept of Völkerabfall is wrong.
>>2516219>>2516218i dont argue with racists
>>2516209If we can’t accurately define who is and isn’t volkens or whatever. Then it’s a stupid and useless concept that can only be applied retroactively after the fact. It’s just race autism and it provides no helpful, predictive or meaningful use as a concept.
I go back to newton, the the theory of gravity is provable and useful. Newtons schizo Bible numbering isn’t. Originally I thought you made this thread to be like
>see Marx and engles are racist and badBut it’s really
> Marx and Engles were racist, so I can be too?No, race is a spook. There is no meaningful way to define a “race” except by being a cultural homogeneous block (something that also comes with dozens of asterisks). Cultures come on go, evolve or die off all the time. You don’t see a lot of Visigoth’s around do you? You run into Roman’s lately or saxons? It’s just stupid.
heaven forbid someone's feelings get hurt
>>2516224I already explained it‘s not based on genetics. You can‘t prove it‘s wrong so you‘re chickening out.
>>2516212Yes I agree with that idea.
>>2516233>If we can’t accurately define who is and isn’t volkens or whatever. Then it’s a stupid and useless concept that can only be applied retroactively after the fact.I think you rather meant „if we can‘t accurately identify“ and not „define“. We define terms. Also, that people have been misidentified as Völkerabfall doesn‘t disprove that it could be a real phenomenon. It could simply be that Engels materialist understanding was still lacking which is why he misidentified them. Doesn‘t mean it‘s only possible to declare it in hindsight. If the phenomenon is real, theoretical models accurately describe said phenomenon and we have enough knowledge it can be identified prior.
>race>cultureYet again, you are misidentifying what this is about and you shouldn‘t through vaguely related concepts around. That‘s neglectful and leads to confusion. Read
>>2516209 >>2516238give some examples of Völkerabfall today who we should exterminate to make room for "progress"(tm)
Europeans and Americans are the reactionary race, if Marx were alive today he would tape his eyes and wear a Mao suit
>>2516256Ukrainians aren’t dying as a race the diaspora is juts growing.
>>2516248>shouldThe concept of Völkerabfall does not have a prescriptive purpose, it‘s about a people being predestined to be wiped out in revolutionary processes. I think you people have your panties up in a bunch which makes it impossible for you to haver a sober conversation about it. And to answer your question, I think it‘s native Western populations that are prime candidates for Völkerabfall at the moment.
>>2516270>The concept of Völkerabfall does not have a prescriptive purposethen be descriptive
name some Völkerabfall
>>2516246Fair enough, I still reject the concept for the most part. I do believe there are unique geographical and historical circumstances that preceded revolution. I don’t think there’s some communist master race waiting to be revealed and we won’t see some climatic final struggle. It’ll be a series of economic arms races, civil/proxy wars and the mode of production will shift long before its formalized. For example I predict the Americas will be the next place of revolution because it is the most advanced capitalist economy. With much of the worlds powers having shifted to much more pragmatic state capitalist models. Americas model persist similar to how feudal Russia and china continued to exist during the rise of capitalist empires. Relative isolation, stable long standing institutions, and access to massive amounts of land/resources to paper over contradictions. When they came in conflict with the capitalist empires it forced necessary reforms and Lenin and Mao were basically pulling a biff tanning using communist theory to leap frog decades of development in compressed time. The Americas will likely go through something similar and have to leap frog state capitalism to restore their global position.
>>2516281Americans are too geographically spread out and don’t even know their neighbors, this is before you get into how they spend most of the times on media that actively melts their brains and erodes critical thinking often combining that with drugs and alcohol. They are also an old nation that grows older with every year, the median age being 45 right now. Have you seen a civil war happen in a country with an average age above 30 ever? Not to mention deindustrialization means there are no factories in America and thus no revolutionary proletariat. What’s left of the factories all directly produce weapons for the military industrial complex, meaning their financial interests are tied directly to imperialism. Every American worker’s 401k is toed up in companies with financial ties to imperialism with the exception of illegal immigrants who need to send remittances home. Unless the entire system collapses I see no possibility to organize.
Product of their time and people need to realize that theorists can be wrong personally but the theory is still right. Like take this for example.
<Thus, the liberation of Europe, whether brought about by the struggle of the oppressed nationalities for their independence or by overthrowing feudal absolutism, depends on the successful uprising of the French working class.
Marx later did a complete 180 and claimed the French working class useless and that the German working class were superior in development and organization, during the Franco-Prussian War. The chauvinistic outbursts however do nothing to invalidate Marxist materialism and his critique of political economy. Even his enemies like Bakunin recognized their value.
This was also in the middle of Darwinism becoming the head of science. People constantly understate how influential social Darwinism was, with it being "confirmed" science until basically the end of WWII. Marx believed in phrenology, because it was considered real. This is the problem when Obama libs try to inject their ideology when observing shit 200 years ago. They come off as idiots endlessly searching for the "GOTCHA" instead of engaging their critical thinking ability.
Personally, I just never gave a shit about digging through letters and shit from Marx when people need to read his actual, published works of theory. The point was never to look towards Marx and Engels as soothsayers.
>>2516404>its still rightname some groups that deserve "mass slaughter" today
>>2516405Religious reactionaries
>>2516405Teutonic Germans (also known as upper-class Finns, Estonians, and Latvians).
>>2516405capitalists. pedophiles. drug dealers.
>>2516103Listen, dutch, I'll tell ya what
It's just Engels being furious. He felt like the Slavic nations of the Austrian Empire betrayed the 1848 revolution.
Because if you read what he (or maybe Marx, I don't remember) wrote about the uprising in Prague, a year before this rant about "Volkerabfall" was written, then you are not going to encounter anything even remotely anti-slavic.
The problem is that the Czechs and other Slavic nations of Austria wanted just some form of national emancipation inside the Austrian empire but they weren't as radical as the Hungarians. Plus the population was mostly passive, or worse, collaborating with the monarchy (generals Radetzky and Jelacic are clear manifestations of that)
And of course Bakunin supportin Pan-Slavism made Engels even more butthurt
>>2516405reactionaries, all of them
notice how all these controversial quotes are really old from when marx and engels were in their 20s
I just steal the ideas I think are useful, they were both dumbasses that stumbled their way into various groundbreakingly useful conclusions.
There's no such thing as a genius and the sooner you shake off such notions the simpler things will be for ya.
>>2516103Why are they relevant to begin with?
Aristotle and Kant were pro-slavery, does that compromise formal logic or the critique of pure reason? Obvious answer is no, they’re not particularly relevant to something that abstract. So it is with Marx’s (and Engels’) critique of political economy and what it might say to today.
>>2516707kek what a picture
>>2516103>the Slavs are a reactionary massIt's not wrong. Just look at any slav state today.
>>2516922Yeah billions of people should live in feudal poverty so that your favorite capitalist state with red flags has less geopolitical rivals
>>2516922Marx was absolutely right in his analysis of India, that it would force a nationalist awakening.
By the way, if you're going to say the "he was a white guy in London, not a Bengali in Kalkutta" line, Mao made a very similar argument in analyzing Japan's attempt at colonizing China.
>>2516971In the case of India it's not the "nationalist awakening" that's important but the destruction of the outdated 5000 year old mode of production and rapid transformation into capitalism.
>>2516978That didn’t happen though, 70% of India still works agriculture it took until Narendra Modi’s Ministership for the fill transition to capitalism, it still isn’t finished in rural areas
Nothing wrong with what he said. Reactionary people are wiped out, regardless of who they are. Sure, the fact that they are either reactionary or progressive may change with time, but reactionaries caught in the moment of a historically significant revolution are beaten into submission and/or finsished off. There is nothing wrong with it.
>>2516971Holy based and ruthless Mao. Western leftoids will never be able to match this level of sheer BRVTALITY.
>>2517094Except that he is tying it to whole ethnic groups or nations.
>>2516922>>2516971>>2516978>>2516984I say this as an Indian, it was the Indian people's fault for being a bunch of divisive, servile, peasant-minded cucks that we've been getting btfo for millennia now. Marx was right. The beatings shall continue until improvemen is observed. Either the day will come when India (hopefully along with other shitholes in the subcon) has its own awakening similar to China, or it will continue putrefying like the dead, degenerate society that it is.
>>2517100And? Would you shed a tear if Israelis or Saudis got nuked today? I wouldn't. Some people really are just irredeemable.
>>2516984Capitalist agriculture is still capitalism. Farmers don't give grain to their lord or some shit. They are either small proprietors who make profit from sales, or they're laborers working for a big farmer.
>>2517101I heckin love genetic determinism
>>2516103MAGA is the modern Völkerabfälle. Engels was right.
>>2516103These text were written in the 19th century. Calls for genocide were more casual and less serious before events of WW2.
>>2516604I've found the article
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/06/18.htmJust compare this with "Democratic Pan-Slavism" written a year later
>A revolutionized Germany ought to have renounced her entire past, especially as far as the neighboring nations are concerned. Together with her own freedom, she should have proclaimed the freedom of the nations hitherto suppressed by her.
>And what has revolutionized Germany done? She has fully endorsed the old oppression of Italy, Poland, and now of Bohemia too, by German troops. Kaunitz and Metternich have been completely vindicated.
>And the Germans, after this, demand that the Czechs should trust them?
>Are the Czechs to be blamed for not wanting to join a nation that oppresses and maltreats other nations, while liberating itself? >>2517115Literally where do I talk about genetic determinism you retard?
>>2517122#RAPEMAGA #DARKWOKE #DARKBERIA
I still support MAGA because they destablize Burgerreich >>2517128>Also, people in India often happen to come into magic powers by chance, because at least back then, it's like when you have a loose conception of reality I guess, it allows you to more easily access these powers. I thought it was an interesting hypothesis.Such magical thinking is retarded.
>What is your opinion on Marx‘s and Engels‘ more crass ideas
I don't idolize Marx or Engels. I don't feel any obligation to defend everything they thought about anything.
>>2516103I remember someone recently posted a bunch of "problematic" Marx/Engels quotes can someone share it again? I will only use it for good of course.
>>2517724That was me, and no.
>>2517148>I still support MAGA because they destablize BurgerreichThe US was already on the course toward collapse, it would've already collapsed by now if it weren't for Trump stalling the inevitable. He's rolling with the collapse, he's not the cause in itself.
>>2516971The two short articles Marx wrote on India shows more understanding of India than any expert who spent decades studying India.
Marx had a crystal ball.
all nations are to be dissolved into the one global community. a single Herrenvolk. we must do away with Stalin's hippie nonsense. embrace Borg culture
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