No.569544
>>569543>Would it even be money at that point?It stops being money only when it stops circulating from person to person. Anyway, the change from that point on towards labor vouchers should not take longer than a few months tops.
No.569545
>>569544Alright, that makes sense, although I still don't understand how it would work. How do you establish a labor time rate in a capitalist market economy? How do you begin the transition? I think it's a very interesting topic, but I can't comprehend how it would happen.
No.569547
>>569545>How do you establish a labor time rate in a capitalist market economy?you just do so, ok?
No.569549
>>569545Money is made up, the government can just pick a rate and give out one or the other by printing either.
No.569550
>>569548Linear Programming by Bertsimas
No.569551
>>569550Why the fuck an introductory book 600 pages
No.569552
>>569548there's a bunch of texts in the OP but perhaps there's something overlooked
spontaneously I think Stafford Beer
>>569551>Why the fuck an introductory book 600 pagesmathematical programming do be like that
No.569553
>>569551For an intro you probably only need like the first 6 chapters or so. The remaining material is better covered in more more topic specific books.
No.569554
>>569549Come on man, you know that's simply not true.
No.569555
>>569550>Linear Programming by Bertsimassauce
No.569557
>>569548Brain of the Firm from Stafford Beer
No.569558
when is cockshott gonna finish his EPL language?
No.569559
>>569558Dubs and it Dickblast dies before finishing it.
No.569565
>>569560Not being socialist
No.569568
>>569565Cockshott thinks otherwise
No.569574
>>569573Remember that the next time you feel unsure about yourself
No.569576
>>569571>>569570so this is the power
No.569577
>>1383454
>>1383525
Incel jibber jabber
Stick to hentai anime, more your speed
No.569578
>>569573Marx makes a big deal out of the human ability to plan ahead, distinguishing humans from non-human animals that way. It was known in the days of Marx that you can teach tricks to dogs. Since then experiments have shown that you can also teach new things to fish and even insects. And given that dogs are vastly more intelligent than those animals, what does that tell you.
There are many animals that are ready to go once the moment they are born or just a few hours after that. Human babies have massive heads with an unfinished skull. There is a remarkable lack of finished "wiring" in a new human. Humans have an extreme flexibility.
An ordinary adult human can instantly switch between many different tasks. If the planning horizon is longer, we can add skilled tasks to that. What that means is that we can plan not just with concrete types of this or that labor, but also with the concept of generic human potential which can be molded over time. In other words, abstract labor is not just something brought about in a particular type of society by equating different concrete activities in the market as some nu-"Marxists" would have it (they have a wrong position which amounts to saying communism is impossible).
Cockshott is correct.
No.569579
>>569573>behold, a man!I think dickblast has also suggested AI can have feelings. very spooky
the only thing that is special about humans is that only humans are human
>>1383525>Labor is not the sole source of "value",stopped reading right there. go and re-read Capital please
No.569580
>>569573Labour is the source of value simply because it is our base resource we can spend. If 100 cows made farming Hella easy the dynamics of production in a market would make it worth less because it would take so little effort to get the food so you could do more alternative work while the price is driven down via competition.
It's got nothing to do with skill or oxen. Labour is the source of value because it is optimised for by free producers and by proletarians and the bourgoiesie. Nature has no value in this sense, because it takes human effort to transform things in nature to things you can use. If fertile soil exists it does not add value, it simply amplifies your productivity, while your value output remains equal.
No.569581
>>569560Economic Embargoes
/thread
No.569582
>>569579But labor is not the source of all use values.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1875/gotha/ch01.htm>Labor is not the source of all wealth. Nature is just as much the source of use values (and it is surely of such that material wealth consists!) as labor, which itself is only the manifestation of a force of nature, human labor power. The above phrase is to be found in all children's primers and is correct insofar as it is implied that labor is performed with the appurtenant subjects and instruments. But a socialist program cannot allow such bourgeois phrases to pass over in silence the conditions that lone give them meaning. And insofar as man from the beginning behaves toward nature, the primary source of all instruments and subjects of labor, as an owner, treats her as belonging to him, his labor becomes the source of use values, therefore also of wealth. The bourgeois have very good grounds for falsely ascribing supernatural creative power to labor; since precisely from the fact that labor depends on nature it follows that the man who possesses no other property than his labor power must, in all conditions of society and culture, be the slave of other men who have made themselves the owners of the material conditions of labor. He can only work with their permission, hence live only with their permission.>>569580 No.569583
>>569582I said value, not use-value, not wealth
>>1383713>value is actually exchange-value u guise>ackshully slavers and feudal lords totally pissed away labour>this is totally not a plot to sneak market "socialism" or otherwise anarchic production in through the back doorOC related for (you)
>it begs the questionit
raises the question, retard
No.569584
Cockshott's entire schtick is vulgarizing Marxism with "bro…humans work, fuck, eat and then sleep and do it all over again…that's crazy…" type shit. Pseuds eat it up because it lets them feel smart.
No.569586
>>569584Very well thought out criticism, anon. I'm sure you're so cool
No.569587
>>569584>Just as Darwin discovered the law of development of organic nature, so Marx discovered the law of development of human history: the simple fact, hitherto concealed by an overgrowth of ideology, that mankind must first of all eat, drink, have shelter and clothing, before it can pursue politics, science, art, religion, etc.Engels the vulgar
No.569588
>>569275Fucking years ago I ripped into Lain for being a leftcom cuck and to interview Dick Blast and he only puts the big man on the show after losing his entire following L
No.569590
>>569587This was a funeral speech and understandably an incredibly condensed and awkward summary of Marx's thought. What excuse does Cockshott have when he repeats the same shit over and over again?
No.569591
>>569590>This was a funeral speech and understandably an incredibly condensed and awkward summary of Marx's thought. What excuse does Cockshott have when he repeats the same shit over and over again?summarizing it for the proles
No.569592
>>569589<In the USSR, pay differentials between manual workers and educated skilled workers were far smaller than in capitalist countries, and this fostered strong resentment among the latter and strongly contributed to the downfall of socialism in the 20th century. Furthermore, the notion of allocating goods according to labor time in a socialist system necessarily mostly wipes out pay differential and brings about an equality of labor. As Cockshott and Cottrell argue in Toward a New Socialism, pay differentials on the basis of productivity and effort could be introduced in a socialist system, but there would be no skilled worker premium, because there is simply no justification.
<Perhaps - and I’m completely open to the idea I’m wrong on this, but perhaps - Capital as Power-ism is the product of a stratum of educated high-income leftists who balk at how the labor theory of value necessarily leads to the notion of the equality of labor. As such, they desire an economics that challenges gross capitalist excesses, but that does not homogenize labor and ends up treating the work of lowly unskilled workers as being equal to that of educated skilled workers. The Capital as Power school provides that and thus offers an attractive alternative to Marxism, especially in light of the demise of Keynesianism.OK I can imagine the comparison with the West making you slightly frustrated as a doctor or engineer. But is it true that those were
very hostile to socialism? Highly-skilled labor and highly-paid labor are not quite the same concept. I believe people in administrative positions got into their positions mostly due to luck and tit-for-tat in personal connections and so I don't think of them as highly skilled. And it is them who could expect the biggest gains by switching to capitalism.
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