No.572310
I recently joined a Trot org for its book club. The reason why is because it heavily advertises itself as being a "Marxist" org, engaging in a lot of basic "Marxist" education.
In actuality, the short period I have been in contact with it, it has been deadset on postponing the supposed teaching of the basics of Marxism, and instead are practically streamlining Trotskyist ideological drilling and "vetting" before anything else.
The next meeting, even before I'm allowed to begin partaking in the actual book club, they will now try to drill me on "my view on how the USSR degenerated". Like for fucks sake, we haven't even gotten into the dialectical development of history, capital, let alone imperialism, and you want me to just bend over on your sects interpretation of an incredibly complex and contended interpretation of the early USSR?
>TL;DR:
What should I expect these Trotskyists to say about "the degeneration of the USSR" and what what are they hiding / intentionally leaving out / misconstruing, in your view?
No.572311
bump
No.572312
>I recently joined a trot org
leave immediately.
No.572313
>>572310>What should I expect these Trotskyists to say about "the degeneration of the USSR"Just tell them you joined up to learn about Marxism, not about personal vendettas from 1930, and that you hope to one day see them do something actually applicable to the current day situation, then leave.
No.572314
>>572312>Better be unorganized than organizedI disagree, e-LARPflag tard
>>572313>and that you hope to one day see them do something actually applicable to the current day situationIronically they have more numbers than the other revolutionary orgs in this country (western European). Say what you want about their ideological line but especially their tactical entryism and brainwashing seems to be working
>Just tell them you joined up to learn about Marxism, not about personal vendettas from 1930Kinda what I've already been telling them so far. That's why I found the forcefulness of their sectarianism so shocking.
>then leaveNot yet. I wanna see if I can convince their book circle (if I don't get kicked out before that) to start with either Marx, Engels or Lenin.
No.572315
>>572310Funny, I considered joining a local trot organisation as well. They seemed decent at first glance, they passed the litmus test on Cuckraine – unlike the last organisation I quit.
They however behaved the same way, like you described. Just another cultist group obsessing over X-20th century communist figure.
<Want to learn about socialism?>Lesson nr. #1: "Stalin bad."Lost interest immediately, and went back to dooming.
Seriously, why are organisations in Europe such dogshit?!?
It's either radlibs, historical figure obsessionists or Gonzaloid babyboilers here.
I hate it!
No.572317
>>572315It's only natural that the "vanguard" orgs of our particular material conditions will morph and mutate considerably over the coming years and few decades, considering the breakdown of unipolarity and the worsening of the living standards of the western middle and working classes. Ideally I would join a cybernetic communist party, but that has yet to be formed and so I will discourse my way into unions and book clubs of the various small parties, whether they like it or not. That's my attitude right now. I don't think it's wise right now to be unorganized, considering the simultaneous growth of reaction.
>>572316>Divorce yourself from your local labor movement>massmediate consumption of revolutionary communist literature, alone, isolated, amid dopamine compromizing machines of and for ad companies and the surveillance state1. I don't think I will
2. Fuck off Porky
No.572318
>>572314>Ironically they have more numbers than the other revolutionary orgs in this country (western European). Say what you want about their ideological line but especially their tactical entryism and brainwashing seems to be working What org?
You could just ask them why they are so insistent on this specific issue when its just a reading group about marxism.
No.572319
>>572310Damn lol. The first thing we did in our org was dealing with anarchists, then idealists, and now we're dealing with left-coms. Trotskyites are probably our next target. You should force a ML line. ML is inherently appeals to communists because its so clear cut and simple to grasp. You should have no problems defeating a Trotskyite 1-on-1. Build an inner ML circle and take over the org, one comrade at a time.
No.572320
>>572319>You should force a ML line>That kind of sectarian is wrong, be my kind of sectarianFuck off.
No.572321
>>572320ML is not Stalinism. ML is the synthesis between theoretical Marxism and practical work which follows the theory and revises accordingly. I dunno what you think ML means, but you should read Lenin instead of accusing others of sectarianism.
No.572322
>>572314it better to be unorganized then to be organized with ruling class collaborators
No.572324
>>572321>follow this one theoretical line and allow no other to be discussed>nooo i cant be sectarian, i am not stalin despite nobody bringing up stalinML is a specific line, your entire stance is identical to that of the trots that OP is decrying.
Your retarded dogmatism of forcing ML on every new person and now allowing anything else is exactly the same as forcing trotskyism on every new person and not allowing anything else.
You are sectarian.
No.572325
>>572323glad you don't like it :^)
No.572326
>>572324ML is
whatever Marxist theory and praxis works towards establishing socialism. Marx and Engels laid down the foundations of theoretical Marxism, Lenin and Mao developed the revolutionary praxis that it needed. If we today have to fully revise Marx and Lenin, but those revisions lead to socialism, that's
still ML, because ML is a method and not ideology. Read more, ultra.
>>572325I like Pannekoek. I liked his writings on communist tactics. Not all of it, of course, but there's good theory there for the XXI century.
No.572327
Ok gonna start namefagging now, as more concurrent convos started
>>572318>What org?Would like to maintain plausible deniability, they may check this site, but it's one of the few bigger ones.
>>572319I'm dual-entering this and an ML anti-revisionist party. I was disappointed that the Trots were a bit larger/better organized and with more reading groups.
Could try to copy-paste some of the Trots methods into the ML org. Especially considering a Maoist party hasn't been established here yet. I see this ML party as what needs to be a vehicle of sorts into something new, but it has yet to be born. A lot of responsibility on one pair of shoulders, but so be it, revolutionary work be like that sometimes. On the horizon of this work will be a cybernetic communist international tied to revolutionary communist anti-revisionist orgs on-the-ground, somehow, at least that's what I can speculate on now.
>>572326I sympathize a lot with your perspective.
No.572328
They're going to whine about bureaucracy and act like Trotsky would have done anything different than Stalin would he have been in charge. Bottom line is they're as retarded and sectarians as regular MLs with some fun quirks but they're the same. Sperging about dead long militants and feuds is idpol and ultimately pointless, stay with them if you like them and what they organize, go away if you don't.
No.572329
>>572327>Could try to copy-paste some of the Trots methods into the ML org.Yes! That is exactly what you should do. Revolutionary zest is what is missing and Trotsky appeals to the radicals because he is a martyr for the cause in their eyes. You should see if there are any like-minded students around. Those are usually prepared to commit more, mainly due to boredom. See that they can offer something practical. You could also propagandize ML points yourself and invite those people who agree with them to the group, so that you can build a body to overtake the org. It'll hone your rhetorical skills (something contemporary Marxists
also lack – how many times I went to a protest just to see the energy disperse after they started reading slam poetry.)
But be wary once you start political work. A decade back, a book club was started (just like our org) which then birthed several capable people which started a broadly Leftist party. The party was by all bourgeois standards a success. Some tenth of the voters voted for them. But, as it always was, they forget their revolutionary upbringing and became just a bit more left-leaning succdems.
>I sympathize a lot with your perspective.Thanks. I think people forget the fundamentals of Marxism, and then they become a very particular kind of radical ideologue. We have to continuously correct people about basics, but that's the boring groundwork for revolution that no one wants to do.
No.572330
>>572329 (me)
Another tactic which I found had some success with my org is just calling out things for what they are. You should push a 'neutral' line i.e. an unoffensive, classical Marxist approach (I'm talking 2nd International unoffensive) and not engage in historical squabble. Moreover you should call it out and fight against it, because we Marxists deal with the
now not what was. Give leeway when it is correct to do so. Trotsky gave us a great short analysis of fascism. In tandem with say Dimitrov's analysis you open the possibility of developing an all-encompassing, broad line which has appeal among the communists and can be adjust for popular propagandization.
No.572331
>>572330Have you also read R. Palme Dutt's "Fascism and Social Revolution"? How do you think it, Dimitrov and Trotsky's take on fascism compare?
No.572332
>>572331I have not read Dutt. Is it worthwhile?
Dimitrov focuses more on forming united front alliances with a wider range of anti-fascist organizations, while Trotsky emphasizes the need for a more revolutionary strategy that centers on the proletariat. Trotsky believes Popular Front strategies are watering down revolutionary potential. While that criticism is merited to some extent, when communist face danger from fascism (like today) it is much more important to prevent fascism than not compromise. You can see how a general strategy can be developed here: communist should organize any kind of organization between people (not just party charters or other such misguided ideals from the last century) and have people from the org engaged in ideological work within those popular organizations. I believe that this strategy could work out, but it requires a lot of socialization and defeating anxieties of public space (they are extremely prevalent among young people).
The most popular such occurrences in our city are flea markets and open-air DIY. Our next goals are coordinating such events into a bigger event and using the opportunity to suggest more practical organization, propagandizing and searching for possible candidates to invite to our ideological 'evening schools'.
Now all of this is a drop of water in the ocean, but by God, even the bolsheviks started out as a 10 man reading band.
No.572333
Just a general comment before I go to bed. Marxism is in a sense a very pragmatic ideology. Or rather, pragmatic methods should be employed for the eventual victory of the proletariat. We should always understand the three main components of Marxism: class struggle, dialectical materialism and the commodity form. But we should never disregard any praxis which wavers from the ideal situation. Marxism is a Wissenschaft, a creation-of-knowledge. It is also scientific in a sense. Every scientist understands that the laws of nature are laws, but our measurements and our practical scientific methods can get us only so far to the perfect result. It is the same with Marxism. It has its iron laws (tbf it would be better to say "class society has its iron laws which were observed by Marx") and we as communists should see to any practical method which can establish a DotP without regard if it follows the existing theory.
Debord had a great insight when he said that the thing actually stopping revolution now is the existing revolutionary theory. It has become inert, it is no longer in motion but it is set in stone within every org that even dares to call itself 'Trotskyite', 'Maoist', 'Leninist', 'Anti-Revisionist' etc. Theory is a living thing and we should stop name-dropping (as I still, sadly, do sometimes) and actually create new revolutionary theory. We have seen what happens when this is taken 'too far left', as Debord already gives a wrong approach to the problem (the radical negation of theory).
It is the task of current communists to organize the disconnected leftist communities, to give the masses a voice so that we may listen to it and continue developing society further.
No.572334
>>572333So in a sense, we should be creating a new Synthesis for Theory instead of simply name dropping other forms of Praxis. One can see us Communists as the Scientists. For we should be looking for new methods to get us to our results even if they aren't Perfect. Thus creating the a new Theory for our changing conditions and world.
No.572335
out trotsky the trostkyites by saying the soviet did degenerate but also imply trotsky was also part of problem(which I mean is all true). also holy shit sectarianism is retarded how do these people think gatekeeping the book club is good for anyone? left unity ftw ong
No.572336
>>572319stop being a literal ideological tryhard sectarianism is bad and every tendency has their own strengths and failures
No.572339
>>572326>ML is whatever Marxist theory and praxis works towards establishing socialism. This is a retarded take. By this definition orthodox Marxism is ML. Trotskyism is ML. Council communism is ML. Etc. ML has specific ideological and tactical foundations that make it distinct from other forms of Marxism. You can't define ML as "any Marxism working towards the goal of Marxism".
No.572341
>>572340Let's it get into this discussion again.
ML never worked in the imperialist core. ML hasn't achieved lasting communist states. Orthodox Marxism worked better at organising the masses in the imperialist core than ML ever did. You can go on an on.
This is just as much circular logic as calling people revisionist or ultra left. Nothing has succeeded in establishing communism, all of it failed and degenerated, what is innovation and what is revision is just based on what you personally disagree with.
No.572342
>>572341>>572340Also the other guy said "whatever theory works towards" not "whatever theory works period"
No.572343
MLs saying "ML is actually everything in Marxism" while attacking other Marxists is just conciously muddying the water and a continuation of unscientific Soviet forced ideological absolutism. You simultaneously claim ML is everything while at the same time defining it narrowly. It's just a tactic to claim that everyone is ML except the others who by this dumb definition aren't Marxism, and also except this position and this position and this position etc etc.
Fuck off. Just be true to what you are. Maoists don't claim everything is Maoism either.
No.572344
>>572342socialism, or socialism not. there is no towards.
No.572345
>>572344Then ml parties in most of the world aren't ml because they haven't achieved socialism.
No.572346
>>572344Alright which one of you fuckers gave Yoda here Ketamine again?
No.572347
>>572345Therefore proving your definition is a useless model of understanding politics. Because, yes, by M-L's definitions none have achieved socialism, and there is no acceptable way to evaluate if a place has progressed towards socialism. M-L doesn't define socialism without reference to a presently non-existing and therefore undefined post-capitalist society. We don't know where we're going so we can't say if we're going in the right direction.
No.572348
>>572347>if a place*if a society/state/party/whatever
>>572346lil' piccollo green dude on the green
No.572349
>suggest that maybe sectarianism is bad and we should focus more on theory and paxis which yields some results
>get called a sectarian
Very cool leftypol. We would do good to endlessly debate about history and philosophy than actually doing something
No.572351
Have you guys tried doing some praxis? You people talk like you are going to church.
No.572352
>>572351who are you talking to, nerd?
No.572353
>>572352The morons ITT who image bickering over 20th century theory
No.572354
>join cult
>see cultish behavior
>how could this happen to me
No.572355
>>572350We
should stamp out useless forms of Marxism which fail to organize the working class. If you think that I argue for Leninist organizational positions from before the revolution, you're mistaken. But I don't want to waste time with on a dumb ass.
>>572351No it's better to accuse those who actually try new approaches to organizing to be sectarian I guess.
No.572357
>>572355>We should stamp out useless forms of Marxism which fail to organize the working class.Whatever uygha, just don't pretend it's non-sectarian.
No.572358
>>572355>We should stamp out useless forms of Marxism which fail to organize the working classAh you mean like ML parties in the west?
No.572359
>>572358Yeah. I dunno if you missed that I wrote
>If we today have to fully revise Marx and Lenin, but those revisions lead to socialism, that's still ML, because ML is a method and not ideology. >>572357>Marxism is sectarianismPeak theory.
No.572360
Trots are genuinely retarded fgts
They gave up studying Marx, Engels and Lenin so long ago to the point it is almost impossible to have a frame of reference in talking to them
One came up to my stall recently and during that conversation it became apparent he had no concept of what the Marxist concept of the nation was (as outlined in Marxism and the National Question, Stalin), no concept of what Imperialism was ("using your army is imperialist") and thought the European Union was democratic
This is the rank and fil cadre of the Socialist Party (former militant) as he told me he was a member
How can you possblibly call yourself socialist and not read Lenin
No.572361
>>572359>completely mischaracterising an argumentPeak douchebag.
No.572362
>>572360>How can you possblibly call yourself socialist and not read LeninYou were going strong until this part right here. Choked in the homestretch.
Protip: Socialism precedes Marx, and definitely precedes Lenin. It's not his Intellectual Property.
No.572363
>>572326>If we today have to fully revise Marx and Lenin, but those revisions lead to socialism, that's still ML, because ML is a method and not ideology.If you have to "fully revise Marx and Lenin" then
by definition it can no longer be called "Marxism-Leninism", although I suppose this amorphous ideology can still be called "ML" if you prefer
No.572364
>>572362It still lands for a trot party
I have some old trot friends and the theory discussions we have are wonderful as long as we avoid certain hot button issues
No.572365
>>572363>conflating ideology with methodsit's all so tiresome
No.572367
>>572364>It still lands for a trot partyThat's fair, I'll cop that point.
It seems so obvious that Trots would at least read Lenin, but ugh, it feels like it typically just stops at "I want to be a socialist but hate Stalin".
No.572368
>>572367>I want to be a socialist but hate Stalinthis is typically said by people who haven't read Stalin
No.572369
>>572363>>572365>theseus's methodCalling M-L "M-L" was a fucking mistake, and re-interpreting it as a method while keeping the name is doubly so.
No.572370
>>572368Well yeah, but I can't hold that against them. I'm in no hurry to read
Mein Kampf but I know I hate Hitler.
No.572371
>>572370>le Hitler = Stalin memerealize you've been fed porkoid lies all your life anon
No.572372
>>572371Stalin was objectively worse. Stalin killed at least three times more people than Hitler.
No.572374
>>572373it's true, some estimates even go as far as 10x more victims of stalinism than hitlerism
these are academic facts. if you deny them you also deny the holocaust
No.572375
You Will Never Be a Revolutionary
No.572376
Kill anfems. Behead anfems. Roundhouse kick an anfem into the concrete. Slam dunk a anfem baby into the trashcan. Crucify filthy anfems. Defecate in a anfems food. Launch anfems into the sun.
No.572377
>>572374I do indeed deny them
No.572379
>>572369Thats why you should just call yourself a Marxist.
No.572380
>>572379Then you lose the history leading to comrade Xi current head if ML where the method of focussing on doing things that actually work developed
No.572381
>>572380>Then you lose the history leading to comrade XiBased
No.572382
>>572380*of
Fucking autocorrect
No.572383
>>572380why yes I'm an Eriduan-Milesian-Heraclitust-Platoian-Artistotilian-Böhmen-Herderite-Spinozan-Fichean-Rousseauan-Hölderlinan-Smithian-Hegelian-Marxist-Engelist-Plekhanovian-Sklyarenkoan-Leninist-Stalinist-Maoist-Xiaopingite with Xi Jinping Thought
Just say you're a Jinpingist or some shit.
>current head if MLno
No.572384
>>572311worst. bump. ever.
No.572385
>>572383Why bother having an opinion if it's just going to be wrong?
No.572386
>>572383Oh ffs kid ML is the ruling ideology of China, Laos, Vietnam, Cuba and arguably DPRK since Juche considers itself an extension of ML and formerly of the Soviet Union, Warsaw pact etc etc
Of the leaders of the current nations comrade Xi is the one writing copious volumes of books a prerequisite to be on the banner of ML leaders beginning with Marx, Engel's, Lenin, Stalin, and Mao and looks set to have his head added to the banner and a portrait added to the gate of heavenly peace following his death unless he makes a point of saying not to
What's your special snowflake definition anyway
please at least be something not totally embarrassing like Hoxha or better Ho Chi Minh replacing Mao on the banner or defining it by Stalin's foundational text on Marxism Leninism please please I've read enough cringe for the day No.572387
>>572386>What's your special snowflake definition anywayIt's
that there isn't a "head of M-L". That makes no sense at all. Why even define such a concept. No.572389
>>572388Careful buddy I'll call the cops on you
No.572390
>>572387Cringe
Couldn't you have at least picked as according to the foundational text by Stalin if you were going to say that No.572391
>>572362>Precedes MarxYou mean a bunch of retarded utopians. Socialism without Marx essentially boils down to the Fabian Socialists. A collection of eugenicists and capitalists and freemasons
Thats your socialism without Marx
> definitely precedes LeninSocialism without Lenin is same as above
What socialism has been built in the world since 1917 that wasnt built in Lenins name?
The best you have is AOC getting retard succdems to vote for her promising to tqx th rich whilst she hangs out with Bolivian fascists
No.572393
>>572392Cops who don't believe in nothing
Deadlier and without remorse
Hi there
No.572394
>>572391>Socialism without LeninThere was never socialism
with Lenin :P
>What socialism has been built in the world since 1917 that wasnt built in Lenins name? A bunch of large autonomous territories.
It may be small but it's more than the 0m² M-Ls have claimed in human history :P
>The best you have is AOCRead a book :P
Leninist definitions of socialism and communism are an infantile disorder. :P
No.572395
>>572394troll
4/10 because i raged a bit
No.572396
>>572395Yeah it's a shitpost because they're a dogmatic douchebag saying "AOC is the closest there is to socialism without Lenin" despite socialist territories of hundreds of thousands of people
actually existing if you don't use their esoteric Leninist definition of pretty much whatever comes after capitalism.
Reasoning with that is a waste of time. Might as well give you a 4/10 to snort at.
In terms of actually reaching its goal and not just frankensteining capitalism into a weird attempt at compromise, the dumb utopians and rushed anarchoids have done better. M-L can still show potential and is probably more appropriate in many places, I'm not dismissing it altogether, but to pretend it's the GOD OF ALL SOCIALISM AND XI IS ITS HEAD is just dismissive arrogant worship crap I'd expect from a WASP.
No.572397
>>572396I just think you have a problem with authority
Do you wanna read "On Authority" by Engels?
No.572398
>>572394>There was never socialism with LeninNow that's way below the belt the poor man was assassinated before the NEP ended
No.572399
>>572333Anyway Debord was a hack fraud
No.572400
>>572397It's got nothing to do with authority. It's to do with basic things like actually obsoleting the profit motive or putting control of the MoP into worker hands. One of the few things socialists can agree on.
>>572398I mostly mean all the leaders inspired by Lenin. Read as "Leninism". Definitely not his fault he was shot and fell ill.
No.572401
>>572399I never saw the sense in Debord. I've got a friend who seems really into his work but I'm just not seeing it.
No.572402
>>572400This is the point where I'd link "Holiday in Cambodia" on youtube(tm) but I can't be bothered
Good day Sir
No.572404
>>572403>Just say to support the economo development of your own country.And writes a multi volume work on how to do that
Wait how did I miss that he's actually saying what to do
fixing uneven development is a prerequisite for world revolution fuck
Also 0 square metres is not quite accurate there's a village specially built for midgets with houses furniture and amenities built to the right proportions for comfort that's at least as socialist by your stringent definition as an anarchist commune :^)
No.572405
What if a normal size human went to that midget village and demanded for things to be put back to "normal size" bc he is discriminated against
Would that be fucked up or what?
No.572406
>>572404>>>1462170 (You)>>Just say to support the economo development of your own country.>And writes a multi volume work on how to do thatI mean his only contribution to the global marxist movement is telling people to support the economic development of china you illiterate idiot.
No.572407
>>572363Uh oh! Looks like somebody made the basic mistake of forgetting that Marxism Leninism is a continually evolving methodology and science by which we improve society, and not a static dogma! Try again!
No.572408
>>572406Because China is one of the two main bastions of 21st century Marxism Leninism, no shit it makes sense to support the Shield of the Proletariat as it were through financial means
No.572409
>>572406Xi onn the Governance of China translated into nearly every language possible available online for free but now I need a hardcopy of the currently released volumes Imma be scribbling in the margins and underlining bits
Fuck how did I miss this and yes he has definitely been saying support the economic development of your own country as well as support China's
Freudian slip on your part?
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