No.576522
>anfem made the new thread
holy shit babe you are a fucking legend
No.576531
>>576525Don't make fun of them, they could kill three afghan grandfathers unarmed
No.576533
Previous bread → >>1500752
No.576536
>>576525giving your soldiers concussions by beating them with sticks is actually
>superior NATO training>orcish Slavic barbarism(please select the desired result based on recent UAF performance)
But the last one is one of those civilian bootcamps in the US where insecure rightoids go to assert their masculinity, right?
No.576540
>>576538I hope I get to see US ships getting Geran'd.
No.576543
first for no war but class war(Thread Merge Beginning)
No.576544
>there are two /ukraine/ general #120
why
No.576549
this thread is canon
No.576551
>>576544bc there is still people that don't check for duplicates
No.576555
>>576520the other one is canon b/c it's older
No.576561
>>576525frankly i thought they would do even worse
No.576563
finally a decent thread not made by a mentally ill american
No.576566
Let's say Ukraine is BTFO and Russia declares victory before the end of the year. What will post-war Ukraine look like and what will the occupation be like? How will they avoid an Iraq type scenario? The average citizen hates Russia more than ever before, doubt they will suddenly become a well-behaved "neutral" state.
No.576568
>>576566>What will post-war Ukraine look likea privatized, looted, shelled, buckbroken no-man's land and an eternal front of the nu-coldwar
No.576574
>>576566Russia never wanted a permanent occupation, that is NAFOid brainworms.
The Russian objective was to get the Ukrainian regime to cede territory in the east and de-militarise.
No.576576
https://t.me/readovkaworld/8466Spain blocks NATO military production expansion plan for Ukraine
Euractiv reports this, pointing out that the decision is due to the fact that the Spanish companies were not invited to the meeting of the defense ministers of the alliance with the leading defense industry firms.
The alliance wants to invest in the leading arms companies for Ukraine. At the same time, according to the plan, NATO is going to increase the production of ammunition to the maximum, which Ukraine currently lacks, since its counteroffensive is failing completely.
No.576578
>>576574>The Russian objective was to get the Ukrainian regime to cede territory in the east and de-militarise.no, it was to make them too broken of a state to join NATO, or for NATO to station nukes there
No.576580
>>576565
Maybe it's a Richard Wagner expert lel
No.576582
>>576578That was the de-militarising.
(Thread Merge End) No.576583
Bringing over an important link from the other thread in case it gets deleted like DDR flag requested
Yup it's gone
https://t.me/readovkaworld/8466^The important link
No.576585
>>576570Is it really? I don't doubt there are Ukrainians who hate their government and prefer Russia, but on average? People tend to look past the flaws of their own government while they're being invaded + that's what I've heard from people like RWN who usually know what they're talking about. If I'm wrong enlighten me.
>>576572Obviously, but isn't that one of Russia's objectives?
>>576574>Russia never wanted a permanent occupation, that is NAFOid brainworms.I didn't say permanent?
No.576587
>>576534>ukrainians probe<russians grindas always
No.576589
>>576583Oh whoops we got a merge not a delete DDR anon's OP for dup thread now in this thread @ >>1502277
Cheers vols
No.576593
>>576585>I didn't say permanent?Iraq is still occupied. If the AFU actually breaks the Russians can just camp outside the major cities until they get the concessions they want. There is no need to send Russian troops in for years to build a new regime.
No.576597
>>576593the iraq comparison is always dumb because
>overstretched burger reich invades country halfway across the world for oilversus
<ex-soviet nation invades bordering ex-soviet nation with mutually-intelligible language and shared culture to prevent it from joining NATOare two
very different situations. Americans try to think of this like iraq because every accusation is a confession and they are unable to make an analogy from outside their own country anyway.
No.576599
>>576583>Spain blocks NATO military production expansion plan for Ukraineinteresting! More and more countries tire out. Now itll be hard to blame it on Hungary (ans Austria) alone
No.576600
>>576597why even bother writing a long essay response like that?
just say death to america
No.576602
>anfem thread prevailed
nice
No.576606
>>576604(I had a news section tho, you lazy fucks :P)
No.576608
>>576604>>576606don't worry you'll get it next time
No.576610
>>576597>>576593>>576591Don't really disagree with anything so far but still don't feel like my original question has been answered. What is the best case scenario for (the people of) Ukraine and (the government of) Russia, following a Russian victory?
No.576612
>>576610Probably annexation of everything other than the city of banderastan in the west which gets saddled with all the debt to burgers
No.576614
>>576610Best case scenario is that Russia takes full control and voids all of the loans from the West (well Russia is cut off from SWIFT anyway, so there's no way to repay even if they wanted), then China comes in with the BRI and rebuilds the entire country from the bottom up. Considering how fast China can move, I'd give them less time to rebuild then the time it took for the war to run its course
No.576616
>>576610Best case scenario would be for the war to discredit the Banderites, and for Ukraine to go back to its pre-2014 status of being an extra corrupt but neutral liberal country.
No.576619
>>576565She is apparently a career thinktanker that works between thinktank circuits and MSM revolving door as they do.
https://search.asu.edu/profile/3258198>Candace Rondeaux is a professor of practice at the School of Politics and Global Studies and a senior fellow with the Center on the Future of War at Arizona State University. A veteran analyst of the conflict in South Asia and expert on U.S. and international security affairs, she has served as a strategic advisor to the U.S. Special Inspector General for Afghanistan Reconstruction and senior program officer at U.S. Institute of Peace where she launched the RESOLVE Network, a global research consortium on violent extremism. An expert on security sector reform, governance, and electoral politics in conflict settings, she spent five years living and working in South Asia where she served as South Asia bureau chief for The Washington Post and as senior analyst on Afghanistan for the International Crisis Group. Her research interests include the dynamics of sectarian violence, governance and political Islam in modern Muslim majority states, Soviet and post-Soviet affairs and post-conflict reconstruction.
>Rondeaux's work has been regularly featured in Foreign Policy, Foreign Affairs, the International Herald Tribune and the Boston Globe. She has also been a frequent guest analyst on CNN, Al-Jazeera, BBC World and National Public Radio. Prior to her postings in South Asia, she worked as a journalist for several leading newspapers in the United States, producing award-winning work on criminal justice and legal affairs issues for the Post, The St. Petersburg Times in Florida and covering terrorism and criminal justice issues for the investigative team at the New York Daily News following the 9/11 attacks. A graduate of Sarah Lawrence College, she holds a bachelor's in Russian area studies, master's in journalism from New York University, and a master's in public policy from the Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International Affairs at Princeton University.
> Education> M.P.P. Public Policy, Princeton University> M.A. Journalism, New York University> B.A. Russian Area Studies, Sarah Lawrence Collegehttps://canada.unofficialbird.com/CandaceRondeauxThis is the think tank she seems to be currently incubating in
https://www.newamerica.orghttps://www.newamerica.org/our-funding/our-funders/Where she is in charge of
https://www.newamerica.org/future-frontlines/Seems about as bland as one could expect of someone whose job is to tick resume boxes and write obsequious tabloid stuff about US foreign policy , but with authority, mind you.
No.576623
>>576614This, but also Russia could do it instead of China.
China might try to do BRI in what's remaining of Ukraine and the govt of Ukraine might accept (good for the people) or reject (bad for the people).
No.576625
>>576614No the best case scenario would be the proletariat rising up and crushing both of these imperialist states, anything else is just the bourgeoisie stepping on the working class
No.576627
>>576625best case scenario is that aliens just come down to earth and rule as benevolent gods for all eternity
since we're dealing with the realm of realistic possibilities however, I'll take a weakened and humiliated NATO
No.576629
>>576627I'm sure the russian and ukranian proletariat who will continue to be ruthlessly exploited and thrown into the slaughterhouse for the sake of capital will take solace in the fact that NATO is humbled.
No.576634
>>576629sounds like "muh both sides" bullshit
death to america, this is the only thing that matters right now
No.576636
>>576631All sides here are imperialist however
>>576634If you're just concerned with one capitalist state trumping another then i don't think a communist internet forum is for you
No.576638
>>576610Best case: European NATO gains the upper hand over Ukraine and beings de-fanging the Banderites and institutions that would be loyal to Washington first. Ukraine keeps being a frontline state, but the economic incentives of western Europe keep the conflict frozen.
Then the USA/Canada sponsors Banderite terrorism across europe No.576641
>>576636America is the global hegemon, Russia is not. America dies first, that is the rule.
No.576643
>>576641Why? so another can take its place and do the exact same thing like every single previous empire has?
The workers movement is the association of the working class in its struggle to abolish capital, not supporting one side of it
No.576645
>>576643
>m-m-muh hypothetical threat is more scary than the extant onedeath to america
No.576647
>>576645Capitalist empires exploiting the working class is not hypothetical.
No.576653
>>576651Then stop pretending to be a communist when it's clear your not one
No.576655
>>576653I am a Marxist, I just recognise we won't get communism with the current state of the USA hanging around, so we need to kill it first and foremost
No.576657
>>576655So another hegemon can come up and do the exact same shit?
No.576659
>>576657When that happens you can give me a big fat dose of "I told you so"
Until then, death to america
No.576661
>>576547>anfem coupLiterally who? All I did was sleep
No.576663
>>576657>So another hegemon can come up and do the exact same shit?Do you people realize you could zoom out and make the same exact point about capitalism replacing feudalism as progressive? That it just concludes with the same tyranny and terror.
No.576665
>>576659I don't have to wait for it to happen to tell you, all you'd need is a basic understanding of how capital works to know that the bourgeoisie needs to exploit to function. The goal of communists is to help the working class associate.
No.576667
>>576663Capitalism was progressive in the sense that it was a higher form of social and productive organisation that gives way to another higher form that being communism, one geopolitical power trumping another doesn't change much
No.576669
>>576665The goal of communism is to kill america
No.576671
>>576649So, Ukrops have like 4 such units in the reserves still. Meaning Ukrops can capture 4 more settlements tops (if assault troops aren't replenished)
No.576674
>>576669Are you autistic?
No.576678
>>576674Yes
death to america
No.576680
>>576678Why do you even pretend to be a communist then? If you're just anti america then there's alot more explicitly anti american sentiment you could be apart of, why even keep up this charade?
No.576682
>>576631>Anon, you must learn how tactical victories can create openings to achieve strategic victories. For example how the fracturing of the global bourgeoisie and decline of Western dominance opens the door to great socialist and anti-imperialist activities.Lenin basically says this in a quote i can't remember. Maybe you do.
>>576667>Capitalism was progressive in the sense that it was a higher form of social and productive organisation that gives way to another higher form that being communism, one geopolitical power trumping another doesn't change muchYes it does. Why do you think Lenin gushed over the rise of Japan? The higher form of social organization is the development of the other 85% of the world which means the international revolution isn't bottlenecked to a few countries in order to have international success. See 1917-23
No.576688
>>576682>Yes it does. Why do you think Lenin gushed over the rise of Japan? The higher form of social organization is the development of the other 85% of the world which means the international revolution isn't bottlenecked to a few countries in order to have international success. See 1917-23Every nation has developed capitalism, sudan one of the least developed nations has a larger manufacturing industry and urbanised populace than england did when the communist manifesto was published, capitalism has spread to every nation on earth there is literally no where else it can spread to. So then the goal is to associate the working class in its fight against capital.
>>576684That's not what being a marxist is
No.576690
>>576688>Every nation has developed capitalism, sudan one of the least developed nations has a larger manufacturing industry and urbanised populace than england did when the communist manifesto was publishedWrong, Sudan doesn't have a military to exploit other countries half away the globe from them, they can't force others to eat their shit, they can't despoil India and Africa for their benefit
No.576692
>>576686The goal of communist is literally to help the working class of their own nation since that is where they can be most effective.
No.576694
>>576688>that's not what being a marxist isneither is being a useful idiot for the global hegemon by saying "both sides bad"
death to america
No.576696
>>576690They still have developed capitalism
No.576698
>>576692>help the working class of their own nation since that is where they can be most effective.And that implies developing productive forces which come in conflict with American imperialist interests, hence the anti-americanism being a much more pressing matter than anything else
>>576696Uh-huh. So? They are still an oppressed nation with their bourgeoisie split 50/50 on either to develop industries or to run away with their spoils to the West and act as a colonial administration
No.576700
It's going to be two more weeks of PROOOBING until they give up if there's no breakthrough.
No.576701
>>576688>Every nation has developed capitalism, sudan one of the least developed nations has a larger manufacturing industry and urbanised populace than england did when the communist manifesto was published, capitalism has spread to every nation on earth there is literally no where else it can spread to. So then the goal is to associate the working class in its fight against capital.You're right of course, but the creation of one world capitalist economy has also revealed its historical limits of expansion and thus internally uneven development. The argument is the bourgeois revolution rationalizes the dictatorship, since it is the foundation of its unipolarity, that this supposes while also imperialist exploitation serves as the mechanism that prevents revolution in advanced countries while perpetuating war in backward ones. Why wouldn't we have a division of progressive and reactionary bourgeoisie here, as we have recognized since Lenin?
No.576703
>>576636>All sides here are imperialist howeverEven if that were true it wouldn't change anything. You shouldn't dogmatically apply the positions of 100 years ago to a totally different situation. We need to weigh the likely outcomes of the victory of one side or another, and determine which is best for us. During WW1 there really was no option that would have produced a good outcome for the communist movement. The Central Powers and the Entente were relatively equal in terms of their political and economic roles in the world system. This is not the case for NATO and Russia. The US is by far the most powerful and aggressive anti-communist force in the world, they've crushed dozens of socialist and progressive governments, and have the ability to do so globally. Russia has destroyed none, and is actually friendly with remaining socialist governments like Cuba and the DPRK. Russian victory would facilitate the continued decline of US dominance, and redistribute power among the global bourgeoisie. This not only means that the deadliest anti-communist force in the world would be weakened, but that other bourgeois forces can be played against one another to the benefit of communists and anti-imperialists. It would undermine imperialist superprofits which help pacify workers in Western countries, and would limit the ability of the West to suppress progressive forces in the neo-colonial countries. US victory on the other hand would help preserve the conditions which prevailed in the immediate aftermath of the Cold War, which was easily the darkest time for the revolutionary movement since the 19th century. This doesn't mean you need to "support" Russia (whatever that means), but you should at least recognize that at the moment, the interests of the communist movement coincide with them winning this war.
No.576705
>>576694The fact you say useful idiot just vindicates my point.
Multipolarity is pushed by liberals with a marxist veneer who think the geopolitical manuevering of nation-states is more important than the international proletariat, who just need to wait and suffer until some fabled multipolar balance of powers is reached before they are allowed to rebel without being useful idiots for empires.
Retards like you are completely serious as well, this is what happens when people have too much fun out of critical supporting periphery nation-states fighting empires. Despite the massive surge of rank and file organising that has happened in the past year theres still no significant international communist movement so people like you put your hopes in emerging power blocs. They take the thesis that a multipolar world is more conducive to revolution & the
incontestable truth that US empire is the single true global hegemon, and put them together to somehow get to a position where they think its just simply obvious that the russian federation, iran, the prc, etc are a meaningful stand-in for an international communist movement. Maybe it's just too scary for people like you to confront the fact that the labour movement is essentially starting at square one, even with the recent surge in rank and file organising around the world it's still in a very nascent stage of revival and still very weak and maybe that fact in itself scares people like you out of ever actually trying to develop or even look at the labour movement (when was the last time you followed a workers strike?) and instead you just settle for treating world politics as a spectator sport, or even more likely is that you just do not care and use it as a way to deal with the ennui and boredom in your life, just hop on leftypol and call ukranians nazis whenever boredom hits you. Campists like you are like baby ducks whose mom was killed by a fowler so they start following around a goose instead.
>>576698>And that implies developing productive forces which come in conflict with American imperialist interests, hence the anti-americanism being a much more pressing matter than anything elseThere are already enough productive forces in the world, the point is for the working class to seize them
>Uh-huh. So? They are still an oppressed nation with their bourgeoisie split 50/50 on either to develop industries or to run away with their spoils to the West and act as a colonial administrationDo capitalist states cease to be capitalist if they're in a sphere of influence?
>>576701Progressive bourgeoisie are only progressive in the sense that they develop capitalism and thus make way for communism, every nation on earth has already developed capitalism so this point is redundant, the goal is to empower the international working class
>>576703> determine which is best for usNo outcome here is beneficial to the working class, the only outcome that is beneficial for communists s and the working class is proletarian revolution, this is a conclusion that was met literally centuries ago (the basis of revolutionary defeatism), there's a reason why people say "no war but class war"
No.576707
>>576705>Progressive bourgeoisie are only progressive in the sense that they develop capitalism and thus make way for communism, every nation on earth has already developed capitalism so this point is redundant, the goal is to empower the international working classThe point was we don't really have a global form of capitalism. We do, but it's only global for a few rich nations. The periphery bourgeoisie is progressive when it comes to this for the same reasons any bourgeoisie is progressive. They connect the world to bring together the market, the reactionaries divide it to better exploit it.
No.576711
>>576705>There are already enough productive forces in the world, the point is for the working class to seize themYes, and you have to do it BY NATIONALIZING FOREIGN CAPITAL WHICH IS PROTECTED BY AMERICAN IMPERIALISM, you dumb-dumb
No.576713
>>576705>until some multipolar erosion of burger reich is reached before we all can successfully rebelRemember always the cost of a failed revolution is Fascism winning
You do not want to go off half cocked with consequences like that, especially since we've also got the second blow of climate change rolling in that only we can deal with. not liberal pigs
No.576717
>>576707>We do, but it's only global for a few rich nationsMakes no difference to the working class of either nation as both are left with scraps, people moaned about irans sanctions acting like its broke but that didn't stop the islamic republic from increasing its security forces budget by over a third when the protests hit while their working class lived on scraps. If you want to fight for nations to have a more equal share of capital then maybe a communist site isn't for you.
>>576711If nationalisation of capital means the working class killing the bourgeoisie and seizing the means of production then i agree with you.
>>576715I'm from iran you memefag
No.576719
>>576717>If you want to fight for nations to have a more equal share of capital then maybe a communist site isn't for you.Why
No.576721
>>576717>If nationalisation of capital means the working class killing the bourgeoisie and seizing the means of production then i agree with you.Imperial core workers are pacified through share of the spoils (more like through usurping high value jobs, but anyway), taking those away from them will create revolutionary situations in the imperial core. Westoids having to deal with literally being parasites is beneficial to communism. And just you look at that, China does exactly that with their BRI.
No.576723
>>576717>I'm from iran(dis)honorary yank then
death to america
No.576725
>>576719Because communist don't give a shit if the bourgeoisie don't get enough capital and we especially don't support them when they slaughter the working class in wars where they try to get more capital
>But picture to yourselves a slave-owner who owned 100 slaves warring against a slave-owner who owned 200 slaves for a more “just” distribution of slaves. Clearly, the application of the term “defensive” war, or war “for the defence of the fatherland” in such a case would be historically false, and in practice would be sheer deception of the common people, of philistines, of ignorant people, by the astute slaveowners. Precisely in this way are the present-day imperialist bourgeoisie deceiving the peoples by means of “national ideology and the term “defence of the fatherland in the present war between slave-owners for fortifying and strengthening slavery. https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1915/s-w/ch01.htm>>576721The first world in the past year has seen a wave of rank and file organising from UPS and tenants unions in america to nurse strikes in australia, again why are we waiting when clearly the working class suffers and has now begun to fight against it?
>>576723I feel like you're on the border of just blatant racism.
No.576727
>>576725>The first world in the past year has seen a wave of rank and file organising from UPS and tenants unions in america to nurse strikes in australia, again why are we waiting when clearly the working class suffers and has now begun to fight against it?USA tries to attack other countries and to plunder them to pacify their population. Denying them is not only moral thing to do - preventing millions from dying and getting exploited - it also advances working class interests FUCKING EVERYWHERE
No.576729
>>576727millions get exploited regardless and why focus on the geopolitical manoeuvring of underdog nations states when the working class is already organising against capital both in the first world and the third world, the focus would be on helping these workers associate better and get into contact with one another
No.576733
>>576705>the international proletariat, who just need to wait and suffer until some fabled multipolar balance of powers is reached before they are allowed to rebel without being useful idiots for empires>>576717I remember following those protests as much as I could
Early on there was solidarity between the protestors and the already striking oil workers but as it rode on it turned more into I don't know how to put it but closer to the well meaning liberals protesting in kiev
that the literal Nazis the burgers used for their coup shot at to sow confusion No.576735
>>576731No i mean calling me a "honorary yank" whatever that means, i don't even live in the US you fucking freak
No.576737
>>576729>the focus would be on helping these workers associate better and get into contact with one anotherOrganizing against America is how you achieve this. Ever heard of national front?
No.576739
>>576735shut up yank
death to america
No.576741
>>576733You haven't been following them closely then, they're currently in a very large general strike right now (the largest since the 70s) and they've connected with other groups such as the students groups to demand a list of political demands, so they've move beyond immediate economic demands showing an increase in association.
>>576737have you ever heard of the International Workingmen's Association?
No.576743
Not understanding why the world needs the west to fuck off has to point to some mental deficiency
No.576745
>>576743You don't understand, you are being racist to Westoids and aren't properly criticizing the smaller nations' bourgeoisie
No.576747
>>576725WW1 was a battle over shares between monopolists, yes. Lenin talks about colonialism right before this section
>For example, if tomorrow, Morocco were to declare war on France, India on England, Persia or China on Russia, and so forth, those would be “just,” “defensive” wars, irrespective of who attacked first; and every Socialist would sympathise with the victory of the oppressed, dependent, unequal states against the oppressing, slaveowning, predatory “great” powers. No.576749
>>576741That's heartening given how in the Hijab protests the striking workers came out hard in support of the students early and then the students as a mass on the street just seemed to forget about the workers in the face of the more important struggle against covering ones hair
It does suggest that the erosion of the great satans power is freeing worker's hands
No.576751
>>576743>>576745My point is that either side winning is a defeat for the working class and as communists you should know this.
>>576747The section i quoted isn;'t about colonialism and is direct critique of "defensive wars"
>>576749It would help if you actually followed the struggle beyond a cursory glance, i made a couple threads about it when it was happening but people kept calling it a colour revolution and just didn't talk about the actual workers, probably because everyone here is a autistic retard.
Here's a link to the oil workers council telegram if you're interested
https://t.me/shoranaft No.576753
>>576751>My point is that either side winning is a defeat for the working class and as communists you should know this.Lmao, how is it a defeat of the working class if Russia WHO DOESN'T PERSECUTE COMMUNISTS AND ALLOWS CREATION OF COMMUNISTS PARTIES wins over Ukraine? Ukraine, if you forgot already, has OUTLAWED COMMUNISM, just like rest of eastern Europe
Russia is OBJECTIVELY the lesser evil, and an evil that actually allows communism to spread
No.576755
>>576751>telegram of oil workersAhahaha glowies are funny
No.576757
>>576751Please I'm not a child, don't try to convince me that the students on the street over the hijab cared about workers in the way workers cared about them
There were some glorious communiques from some, but by and large
Whereas now this has changed
No.576762
>>576761somebody repost the glowie comics
No.576764
>>576753>WHO DOESN'T PERSECUTE COMMUNISTSThere aren't enough words to describe how naive you are
> ALLOWS CREATION OF COMMUNISTS PARTIESLets look at the communist parties they have
> The party is in favour of cooperation with the Russian Orthodox Church.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_the_Russian_Federationhmm
>>576757What is this based on? At this point student orgs are still in contact and solidarity with workers councils and worked with them on their list of demands
https://bit.ly/3K8prgK>>576755If i was a glowie i would not have even talked about workers councils, this council has existed for over two years and even at the height of the protests bourgeoisie media barely reported on them since the first thing capitalist media does in reaction to worker action is to ignore it
>>576761It makes no difference if russia or ukraine win, the working class loses regardless but thinking it would be better if one side wins outs you as a anti-communist
No.576769
One part of the multipolar effect that our more ultra tending friends here might miss is that that the Burger Reich's power is a major factor in the stabilization of the regimes they decry due to the simple undeniable fact that when the regime falls with the burgers still not successfully turned into just another country the burgers are likely loot and murder them all
Many examples most recent Ukraine
No.576770
>>576764>this council has existed for over two years and even at the height of the protests bourgeoisie media barely reported on them Such a strong and influential council that media straight up ignored it? Woah
>Lets look at the communist parties they haveLmao, that's the best refutal you got? That Russian communist party is revisionist? Yeah, sure, i agree. Still though, they are much more influential than ANY communist party in Europe, than ANY social-democrat party in Europe. And also, the very fact that they are unafraid of waving the red flag openly speaks volumes about the freedom for communists in Russia
No.576772
>>576770No anon, you have to understand, it's not a real communist party unless western leftists approve of it first, don't you know anything about universal values??
No.576774
>>576767>look at how russian corporations dominate the globeLiterally earlier last year russia sent death squads into Kazakhstan to gun down protesters to protect their oil rich friend, all capitalist states exploit the working class
>>576770>Such a strong and influential council that media straight up ignored it? WoahThat's literally what bourgeoisie media has been doing for centuries, you'd know that if you actually looked at he labour movement and noted the utter lack of coverage
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1937_Memorial_Day_massacre#Media_coverage> they are much more influential than ANY communist party in Europe, than ANY social-democrat party in Europe. And also, the very fact that they are unafraid of waving the red flag openly speaks volumes about the freedom for communists in RussiaIf you think rhetoric and aesthetic is more important than actually functioning as a communist party then sure go wild
No.576776
>>576774>Literally earlier last year russia sent death squads into Kazakhstan to gun down protesters to protect their oil rich friend, all capitalist states exploit the working classOh I can see how this is exactly the same as the many illegal wars America has waged, the genocide, rape and poisoning of people across the world. It's all the same!
death to america yank
No.576778
>>576776Do imperialist states only become imperialist if they reach a certain kill count? As long as they don't reach that they're good to you?
No.576780
kekkity
https://tass.ru/mezhdunarodnaya-panorama/18053359The peacekeeping mission of African countries to find solutions to the crisis in Ukraine should be welcomed, as well as any other similar initiative," he stressed. - However, it would be much better if the mission started discussing [the Ukrainian crisis] with NATO. I say this for the reason that the main problem is that NATO is at war with Russia and is using Ukraine as a battlefield."
According to Mahumapelo, Zelensky "cannot do, say or decide something without the approval and support of NATO." "Perhaps, in the interests of the African peacekeeping mission, more time should be devoted to negotiations with NATO and the UN," the deputy of the National Parliament of South Africa stressed.
No.576782
>>576776Be charitable, it's quite common for people to not understand proportions
>>576778See?
No.576784
>>576778Imperialist states become imperialist when they engage in imperialism
Read Lenin, not reddit
No.576786
>>576782I've dealt with tons of chucklefucks like this, they're just disingenuous
No.576788
>>576784By Lenins definition imperialism is when capitalist nations forcefully export capital, how is sending in death squads to maintain allied oil barons not imperialism?
>>576786Literally nothing i have said is a lie, you quite literally admitted to just being anti american and explicitly just don't give a shit about the workers movement
No.576790
>>576774>Literally earlier last year russia sent death squads into Kazakhstan to gun down protesters to protect their oil rich friendrussian capitalists oppress the working class… and they also do it kazakhstan?!?!
in the past 9 years the US pulled off 2 successful coups in my country, please look at the scale of this you insufferable faggot
No.576792
>>576774>If you think rhetoric and aesthetic is more important than actually functioning as a communist party then sure go wildQuantity has a quality all of its own
The coming 30 years are going to really start getting uh interesting for capitalism
The CPRF has the books, the resources, the cadres, Lenin, Stalin et al in the original Russian etc etc
The circumstances Russia faces will force the CPRF to up its game, or there ultimately will be no Russia
No.576794
>>576774>If you think rhetoric and aesthetic is more important than actually functioning as a communist party then sure go wildWay to equate OUTLAWING COMMUNISM OUTRIGHT with "they are just waving red flags, they don't mean it", lmao
No.576796
>>576709
This is just baity headline for rightoids. Every country with more than 1 major ethnicity had some amount of diversity ideological training in their respective armed forces to prevent communalization of the army
No.576798
>>576792CPRF will act as mensheviks, and on CPRF's corpse new bolsheviks will rise. Still though, mensheviks are objectively better than libs and socdems because they cede more power to the workers.
No.576800
>>576788Every real worker hates America
They're good
No.576802
If Russia invaded in 2014 and mowed down the Azovites I swear people would cry that they put down a working class movement lol
No.576804
>>576790And the US did one of its most infamous coups in my country yet you don't see me praising any anti us capitalist nation around?
>>576792Literally why would they even act like this? They owe their existence to the russian state, communist parties don't shake hands with the church and the state, they're put on terror lists
>>576794Literally all nations outlaw communist parties, most nation on earth don't allow political parties that actively plan and advocate for the overthrow of the government to exist.
No.576806
>>576784Not that anon, but that would then make Russia imperialist. You can argue to what degree of imperialism is "permissable" to you, but that doesn't negate Russia engaging in imperialism.
>>576772It isn't a rela communist party, what the duck is going on here. Prior to the war, practically every Marxist Leninist here, in Russia even, were of the view that Russia shameful shadow of what it once was, and that the CPRF was a joke that sold out to the capitalist state, failing to meaningfully contest elections that were obviously bogus despite the parties relative popularity and who were willing to uphold the legitimacy of the government. Now that the war is going on, I've witnessed the trampling of principles some MLs once held, as opposed to taking the prior stance that was taken for other wars Russia was involved in, which was that they were inter-imperialist conflicts we had no proper ally in, and of which the end of hostilities we backed.
No.576808
>>576788And where is Russia forcefully exporting capital if all they're doing is sending in a few goons at the request of their friends? Are they engaged in global regime change operations to benefit themselves? Are Russian corporations engaged in the systematic exploitation and domination of countries in the global south? Is the Russian military encircling and containing countries that dare to defy them?
I know of course you're going to ignore this and insist on your universalist abstraction because "all countries are the same" you glowie yank cunt
death to america
No.576811
>>576806*It isn't a real communist party, what the fuck is going on here
No.576813
>>576804>Literally all nations outlaw communist parties, most nation on earth don't allow political parties that actively plan and advocate for the overthrow of the government to exist.Lmao what. Are you going to say that Ukraine actually has more active communists than Russia because Ukraine has actively outlawed communists or something? That's some next level logic
No.576815
>>576798I guess those NATO backed libs are the kadets
No.576819
>>576806>Prior to the war, practically every Marxist Leninist here, in Russia evenThe war has exposed frauds who support Nazis in Ukraine and USA over the rest of the world and forced them either to correct their opinions or leave and be butthurt about getting exposed on reddit or elsewhere. What else is there to say?
No.576821
>>576804>Literally why would they even act like this?I already told you, because the alternative is the collapse of that state
No.576823
>>576808>if all they're doing is sending in a few goons at the request of their friendsSo wholesome
> Are they engaged in global regime change operations to benefit themselvesDidn't they literally do a false flag operation to invade Chechnya and install a loyal warlord?
> Is the Russian military encircling and containing countries that dare to defy them?They're literally invading a nation on the very pretext that they're being hostile to them
>I know of course you're going to ignore this and insist on your universalist abstraction because "all countries are the same" you glowie yank cuntI'm literally from iran, who even acts like this?
No.576825
>>576815Kadets were Constitutionals Democrats. I don't think those were on a life support from the foreigners at the time
No.576827
>>576823>They're literally invading a nation on the very pretext that they're being hostile to themDEATH TO AMERICADEATH TO AMERICA
DEATH TO AMERICADEATH TO AMERICA
DEATH TO AMERICADEATH TO AMERICA
DEATH TO AMERICADEATH TO AMERICA
DEATH TO AMERICADEATH TO AMERICA
No.576831
>>576823>they literally do a false flag operation to invade ChechnyaAre you saying that Beslan was a false-flag? Explosions in many cities and Metro bombings were a false-flag? Chechnya invading Dagestan was a flase-flag?
What the fuck is this nonsense you are reading in Iran, lmao? You are glowed to fuck by islamists, it seems
No.576833
>>576808>Are they engaged in global regime change operations to benefit themselves? Are Russian corporations engaged in the systematic exploitation and domination of countries in the global south? Is the Russian military encircling and containing countries that dare to defy them?Georgia and Chechnya, most ML parties in the early 2000s agreed the Chechnya was an example for Russian imperialism and it wholly embracing a role in trying to become a capitalist power, grabbing for IMF loans while doing so.
No.576835
>>576831inb4 "my family fled Iran so we could have freedom in the West"
$100 says he's a fucking gusano
No.576837
>>576823< Are they engaged in global regime change operations to benefit themselvesDidn't they literally do a false flag operation to invade
Chechnya and install a loyal warlord?
Son people are confusing you for a yank because you don't know geography among other tells
Have you been watching too much yank television
You shouldn't you know, it's bad for you
No.576841
>>576825well no one else really fits the role in this metaphor
No.576843
>>576829>>576827You weren't lying when you said you were autistic
>>576835Family were miners near tabriz and had to leave because they were considered apostles, try to not to be autistically virulent
No.576845
>>576843gusano confirmed
kill yourself
No.576847
>>576845family was literally workers
No.576849
>>576819>The war has exposed frauds who support Nazis in Ukraine and USA over the rest of the world and forced them either to correct their opinions or leave and be butthurt about getting exposed on reddit or elsewhere. What else is there to say<People saying they don't support Nazis in Ukraine, but who also don't support Russia, actually support Nazis in UkraineThe people I'm talking about don't use Reddit. Use your brain, and not the mindset of a terminally online political larp.
No.576851
>Ukraine getting fucked up on the battlefield over the last 48 hrs
>a lot of kino and tears incoming
What can I expect in the thread over the next 24-48hrs?
No.576853
>>576845>workers fleeing religious persecution = gusanodamn
No.576855
>>576833MLs abandoning their principles for nationalism shouldn't be a surprise lmao.
No.576857
>>576845Hey give the lad a chance, he can't choose his parents
>>576849The logic isn't that convoluted lad,
Not supporting killing Nazis is supporting Nazis
Agree or disagree it's not that hard to understand
No.576859
How will Ukraine explain their defeat after hyping up the offensive for months by this point?
No.576860
Isnt it funny how everyone saying "multipolarity is acshually bad just let NATO colonize you until NATO proles rise up in solidarity" is always from a firstie country?
No.576862
>>576847>>576853
>fleeing to the West for "freedom">not gusanoPick only one.
No.576864
>>576849Dude, those people who don't support Nazis in Ukraine refuse to acknowledge that Azovites are Nazis who took an entire city hostage. Or that Ukraine keeps on murdering "apostates". Or that Ukraine literally worships Bandera and outlaws communism.
No.576866
>>576857>he can't choose his parentsFamily were literally workers why would i be ashamed?
>>576862Syrian refugees = gusanos
No.576868
>>576857>Hey give the lad a chance, he can't choose his parentsHe kept saying he is Iranian (despite living in the West - USA most likely) as a way to deflect criticism against his position. He is a Westoid, but identity politics gave him a pretense that he is actually representing IRAN's communists, ffs
No.576870
>>576866Fleeing war != fleeing a non-western government for being a liberal sack of shit
Are you going to do a Yeonmi Park, get plastic surgery to look like an alien and tell the world how you had to push the bus up the hill?
No.576874
\>>1502543
>Family were literally workers
They're not anymore?
I do hope they are happily retired and not passed away or bourgified
No.576875
>>576831>Are you saying that Beslan was a false-flag? Explosions in many cities and Metro bombings were a false-flag? Chechnya invading Dagestan was a flase-flag?Bitch, that was literally the Russian ML position, that the 1999 bombings which were used as a pretext to the the Second Chechnyan war smelled fishy. That something was off, that the timing was suspect, and that independent investigations were unable to get far without the government halting them. It was akin to 9/11, where even if the government wasn't involved, it definitely had prior knowledge it didn't act on and worked in its favor.
No.576877
>>576875>that was literally the Russian ML positionI don't fucking care about ultras' opinion on the issue. Russian workers were very much in favor of STOPPING GETTING BOMBED BY TERRORISTS WHO KEPT POURING INTO RUSSIA FROM CHECHNYA. Chechens themselves WERE IN FAVOR OF FEDERAL FORCES EXPELLING FOREIGN ISLAMIST TERRORISTS WHO KEPT ON TERRORIZING CIVILIANS
No.576880
>>576868>USA most likelyI was born in iran, had to leave under threat of death and live in sydney and have done translation work for communist parties regarding the iranian labour movement, what do i have to to be ashamed about? Literally nothing i have said is a lie and is just basic communist principles, the funny thing is that the retards here have even abandoned established ML lines
>>576870Everything i have said is basic communist principles, but i'm sure the international working class has an appreciation for your critical support of capitalist nations
>>576874They're still workers, refugees who immigrate to other nations aren't very financially stable.
No.576882
>>576866>Syrian refugees = gusanosAfghani minorities fleeing Taliban persecution are westoid loving gusanos who should all be put to death
t. third-worldist LARPing upper-middle class westoid
No.576884
>>576877>ML=ultrabased retard
No.576886
>>576882based /pol/ retard
No.576888
>>576882I mean, you're still a firstie at the end of the day right? You have a material interest in keeping the American hegemony alive just like some thirdie or secondoid in China have a material interest to take down the US. These often resulted in biases in our worldview that we don't even realize and instead take for granted as our objective thoughts
No.576891
>>576880Ah yes, the basic communist principles of being a useful idiot for the global hegemon. Of course, all good Marxists ignore geopolitical context and just make the blanket claim that all countries are the same. That's definitely not what liberals always do, no way.
No.576893
counter offensyiv status?
No.576895
>>576875>>576877Also, lmao, you collected every piece of conspiracy schizo from Russian LIBERALS who kept on insisting that it weren't terrorists who blew up those buildings. Oh, what about Beslan? Who did Beslan? What about Dagestan getting invaded by Checnya?
>>576880>I was born in iran, had to leave under threat of death and live in sydneyRiiiiight. Every gusano keeps saying that they left under the threat of death, but really, there's rarely any proof to it. Asylum seekers usually exaggerate the threat.
>Literally nothing i have said is a lie and is just basic communist principlesDuh, supporting the hegemonic imperialism over national liberation movements is the basic communist principle
No.576899
We just had this discussion last thread…
No.576901
>>576884Just because you call yourself ML doesn't mean you are one. If you insist that Russia imperialized Chechnya you are a clown, not an ML
No.576903
>>576899And we'll have it in the next one for as long as these glowies keep turning up
No.576907
>>576905Remember, it's not real communism unless it's approved by middle class westoids
No.576909
>>576895>Riiiiight. Every gusano keeps saying that they left under the threat of death, but really, there's rarely any proof to it. Asylum seekers usually exaggerate the threat.Family is bahai and left the day two of my uncles were hung for it.
> supporting the hegemonic imperialism over national liberation movements is the basic communist principleThe basic communist principle is that the working class is in conflict with the bourgeoisie and that the latter will always exploit the former. So the focus is on the working class not supporting the bourguosie
No.576911
>>576905> And Russia, which waves Red Flag…
No.576913
>>576880>sydney and have done translation work for communist partiesAh that explains the great sloganeering of certain lines
Ok lad, now let's get into theory
Do you know about the tendency of the profit rate to fall
No.576915
>>576909That's so sad anon, my family also fled <bad country> when <bad thing> happened :<
No.576917
>>576857>The logic isn't that convoluted lad, Not supporting killing Nazis is supporting Nazis<Not supporting inter-imperialist war is actually supporting pre-existing NazisThats no different then saying that you support Islamists because you are against the invasion of an Islamist dominated country by a capitalist power.
>>576864>Dude, those people who don't support Nazis in Ukraine refuse to acknowledge that Azovites are Nazis who took an entire city hostage. Or that Ukraine keeps on murdering "apostates". Or that Ukraine literally worships Bandera and outlaws communism.Proof? I've never heard this stated here.
>>576877>I don't fucking care about ultras' opinion on the issue.That's not the "Ultra" postion, stop using terms you don't understand.
>Russian workers were very much in favor of STOPPING GETTING BOMBED BY TERRORISTS WHO KEPT POURING INTO RUSSIA FROM CHECHNYA. Lol no, and those that did were literally no different then US nationalists who did the same post-9/11.
>Chechens themselves WERE IN FAVOR OF FEDERAL FORCES EXPELLING FOREIGN ISLAMIST TERRORISTS WHO KEPT ON TERRORIZING CIVILIANSNot going to fucking war you faggot. How the duck are you stanning the Chechnyan war, given the damage it did to both countries? What about the Ukrainian war required you to go this fucking far even, to defend this shit now?
No.576919
>>576913>Ah that explains the great sloganeering of certain linesYou mean just fundamental communist principles?
>Do you know about the tendency of the profit rate to fallyes and i know that states will fight cold and hot wars with each other as they try to deal with it and the working class is slaughtered for it.
>>576915I know you're autistic but who even acts like this?
No.576921
>>576909Fucking christ, you keep on getting more and more glowed
>From the Bahá'í Faith's origins in the 19th century until the 1950s, the vast majority of Baháʼís were found in Iran; converts from outside Iran were mostly found in India and the Western world.[106] From having roughly 200,000 Baháʼís in 1950,[107] the religion grew to have over 4 million by the late 1980s, with a wide international distribution.[106][108] Most of the growth in the late 20th century was seeded out of North America by means of the planned migration of individuals.[109] Yet, rather than being a cultural spread from either Iran or North America, in 2001, sociologist David B. Barrett wrote that the Baháʼí Faith is, "A world religion with no racial or national focus".[110] However, the growth has not been even. From the late 1920s to the late 1980s, the religion was banned and adherents of it were harassed in the Soviet-led Eastern Bloc,[111][112][113] and then again from the 1970s into the 1990s across some countries in sub-Saharan Africa.[84][114] The most intense opposition has been in Iran and neighboring Shia-majority countries,[115] considered an attempted genocide by some scholars, watchdog agencies and human rights organizations.[14][116][117][118] yet another glow-up sect supported by the US.
No.576923
>>576917Noone here is a communist, it's just autists who treat politics as a spectator sport
No.576925
>>576919>who even acts like this?The same kind of autist/glowie that pretends to have a certain nationality to try and win internet arguments?
No.576927
>>576921Based schizo post
No.576929
It's impossible that anyone would ever flee a theocracy for any reason except because they're CIA nazis, if that theocracy is not aligned with the west. Saudi dissidents need to get out now because soon when KSA officially joins the based multipolar gang their lives will no longer have any value to me.
No.576931
>>576925I'm not trying to win arguments i just want to know why people like you even act like this? Like it can't all just be autism, like how do you even get to this stage?
No.576933
>>576927Ever heard about Falun Gong? They also all have uncles who had their organs taken out by CCP who issued death warrants to every Falun Gong member
No.576935
>>576929Go read wiki article on bahaites and compare it to falun gong. If I see a glow up sect I call it a glow up sect
No.576937
>>576933Most bahai exile political groups are for secular iran, i haven't even argued for a liberal republic and the iranian working class isn't arguing for that either
No.576939
>2nd chechen war = Iraq
I think you should check out a map and look where Iraq is in relation to the US
2nd chechen war is more like if cartels took over Arizona and started sending sicario death squads to kill and kidnap gringos from neighboring states
If that somehow happened that would be the most justifiable war in the history of the US and hardly imperialist
for the sake of simile let's pretend cartels aren't an extension of the CIA
No.576942
>>576937>Most bahai exile political groups are for secular iranAnd Falun Gong is for secular China. So?
You were the guy who accused CPRF of supporting Orthodox Church, and yet when the talk comes to Baha'i you suddenly see the religious folks as the good guys. Curious
No.576944
>>576895>>576877>Also, lmao, you collected every piece of conspiracy schizo from Russian LIBERALS who kept on insisting that it weren't terrorists who blew up those buildings. Oh, what about Beslan? Who did Beslan? What about Dagestan getting invaded by Checnya?<Bro, it was all liberals who believed thisTell you're new without stating you're new. Schizo or not, this was even repeated by die hard Russian MLs on this very board, prior to the war. How the hell did this now become primarily liberal? Are arguments regarding the US and it's involvement in Afghanistan and Iraq post-9/11 inherently "liberal" now? Why are we now flip flopping on this? For fucks sake, is this going to happen every conflict? Like when anons suddenly stanned for the Myanmar government, despite it literally being financed by western banks and being a PMC dominated proto-fascist state? Why are we being inconsistent like this?
No.576947
>>576942Literally all i was state why my family left which was due to religious persecution. I don't see the bahai faith and anything besides any other religion. If that's be lableling it as "good" then i guess that's your problem
No.576949
>>576944>Why are we being inconsistent like this?Because noone here is a communist and noone her actually gives a shit about the working class, it's all just entertainment for literal autists.
No.576951
>>576905>And Russia, which waves Red Flagsocialism is when waving red flags
>allies to communist China>communistIs it 2050 already?
>enjoys open support from communist countries such as Cuba, DPRK, VietnamI mean they also "support" and trade with countries that sanction these countries as well.
No.576953
>>576944unfortunately, many russian "MLs" are virtually indistinguishable from liberasts
No.576955
>>576931If you don't hate America as much as I do then you're just ignorant and placated by Western decadence
No.576957
>>576944>this was even repeated by die hard Russian MLs on this very boardThis is not an argument. I can make up venerable elder MLs too. This is an OBJECTIVELY ultra position that ignores material reality, and then on top of that to protect their idealism conjures up a conspiracy theory
No.576959
>>576955I hate capital since that is what drives modern society and i work to abolish it, not favour one side of it
No.576962
>>576901Russia did imperialize Chechnya, and Chechnya (Ichkeria) was a hot mess of warlords and extremists that need to be dealt with for global security at some point. Both of these sentences are true, as Russia certainly did not invade Chechnya just for common security but also to establish power projection to the Caucasus.
In fact, i'm pretty sure that the same analogy can be applied to Russia and Ukraine. Yes, Russia is playing the role of a lesser evil here compared to the global security threat that is Nazi-infested Ukr (that it is a part of Western imperium certainly add lots of plus point) but Russia is at the end of the day invading Ukraine not for cleaning up Nazis but to capture the domestic market and the resource-filled lands of Ukraine. It is lesser evilism to some degree
No.576964
>>576959unlike all the successful MLs in history and even Marx and Engels themselves, who realized that even inter-bourgeois conflicts can carry a progressive kernel and have an objectively more progressive side
No.576966
>>576944>Like when anons suddenly stanned for the Myanmar government, despite it literally being financed by western banks and being a PMC dominated proto-fascist state?Oh I dunno, maybe anons supported an independent state that doesn't want to murder itself for the benefit of imperialists? Who didn't want to antagonize China?
Holy shit, you really are collecting every piece of anticommunist/pro-imperialist rhetoric spouted by ultras.
No.576968
>>576959>I don't favour one side of capital, I'm just conveniently critical of America's rivals and enemies whilst America dominates the worldSaid every gusano ever
No.576970
>>576962You can't tell me that Putin and his porkoid friends genuinely care about Ukrainians held hostage by NATO-armed nazis. Their entire interest is probably in the trillions of dollars worth of Rare Earth ores scattered across Ukrainian lands. I wish ziggers realized this instead of thinking that Putin is literally Lenin or something
No.576972
>>576962>as Russia certainly did not invade Chechnya just for common security but also to establish power projection to the Caucasus.Dude, Chechnya wasn't an independent state. Russia secured back RUSSIA'S FUCKING OFFICIAL BORDERS. After insurgents INVADED ANOTHER REPUBLIC INSIDE OF RUSSIA, DAGESTAN
What the fuck, who the hell are you, and where are you getting your glowing nonsense?
No.576976
israel is jungle gang bros trvst the plan
No.576977
>>576964You should read marx and engels, the "progressive kernel" inter-bourgeois conflicts was that of building up capitalism to make way for communism, marx supported the US in their war against mexico specifically because the US would develop the west coast better, but now every nation on earth has capitalism so this point is redundant.
>>576968Gusanos are anti communist that insult doesn't make sense, if you don't have anything to say then you don't have to say anything.
No.576979
>>576939>I think you should check out a map and look where Iraq is in relation to the USIt doesn't matter the location, it wouldn't change if it was religious fundamentalists from Mexico.
>2nd chechen war is more like if cartels took over Arizona and started sending sicario death squads to kill and kidnap gringos from neighboring states<ImplyingChechnya was at the time a de facto independent state, it isn't as if a separate state was taken over by Chechnyan Islamists. Its more akin to if the Mexican government became dominated by cartels, and those cartels had spill over into the US, and so the US used it as a casus belli to invade Mexico.
>If that somehow happened that would be the most justifiable war in the history of the US and hardly imperialistHot fucking take, I can't imagine you'd be saying this 5 years ago.
>Ok, so now for the sake of simile let's pretend cartels aren't an extension of the CIAThey are, and Kadyrov became a similar equivalent to this, being both an Islamist and an extension of the current government.
No.576981
>>576970>akshually, Russia just wants Ukraine's gas fields!Where's gazprom building gas extraction facilities in Ukraine? FFS, Russia's porkies didn't even move to Crimea when Crimea was annexed, Sberbank only did it very recently. Why Russia's "imperialists" refused to move in? Why Russia's "imperialists" - such as Prigozhin - openly call for maintaing Ukrainians' private property of factories in occupied territories and no nationalization?
No.576983
is this /Ukraine/ or /tear-into-iranian-gusano/?
No.576985
>>576983it's /reject-basic-communist-principles/
No.576987
>>576985no, it's /i-want-to-pretend-that-everyone-is-equally-imperialist/
You still haven't answered that Lenin's quote regarding Morocco waging an offensive defensive war against French, British, etc imperialists.
No.576989
>>576970>I wish ziggers realized this instead of thinking that Putin is literally Lenin or somethingThey do realize this, they are just don't want to admit it.
>>576983Sir, we are in /Kuckraine/.
No.576991
>>576972>Dude, Chechnya wasn't an independent state. Russia secured back RUSSIA'S FUCKING OFFICIAL BORDERS.Holy shit this cope.
>After insurgents INVADED ANOTHER REPUBLIC INSIDE OF RUSSIA, DAGESTAInsurgents separate from the existing republic you fag. Insurgents coming from a county =/= all of the forces in that country.
No.576996
>>576983it's /far-right-murderous-anti-communist-fan-club/ but it's anti-american too which is what communism is.
No.577000
>>576987I did answer it here
>>576751 the point was to show the inanity of "defensive wars" and capitalists trying to get a "equal' share of capital, the two paragraphs are seperate that's why lenins says "But picture to yourselves"
No.577003
>>576974Faggimir Cucktin does it again
No.577005
There should be a rule that if you wanna call somebody else a "westoid" or similar you need to disclose 1) your nationality, 2) occupation and yearly income and 3) occupation and income of your parents. You know how twitter is full of "white people accusing other white people of being white"? This place is the same but with "westoid".
No.577007
>>577000Oppressed Moroccan bourgeoisie would try to nationalize to themselves great nations' property in Morocco. NATURALLY. And people would support it, too, because they'd rather keep the profits inside their country than to pay tributes
No.577009
>>577005Westoid is the person who lives in the West. Why do you need to disclose your yearly income if you want to point out that Western bloc countries have similar kind of citizens?
No.577011
>>576751>My point is that either side winning is a defeat for the working class and as communists you should know this.This presupposes China is capitalist
If it isn't all your arguments fail
No.577012
>>577007the point of the quote is to show how dumb a "more equal share of capital" is as the regardless the working class suffers.
>>577011>This presupposes China is capitalistIt is
No.577013
>>577012Then you’re a chomo
No.577014
>>577009>Why do you need to disclose your yearly income if you want to point out that Western bloc countries have similar kind of citizens?because I have a feeling the LARPers aren't only westoids themselves, but 19 year old upper middle class college students
No.577015
>>576970This "common sense" narrative falls apart in light of evidence that Russia didn't want nor prepare for the war, was ready to settle for Minsk-3, or the fact that Russian porkies have been pussy-footing for years around exporting capital even to Crimea.
>>576977Marx also supported Britain in the Crimean War, North in the ACW and Engels supported Prussia against France.
>now every nation on earth has capitalism so this point is redundant.You think that the development of capitalism is over, and that Western-headed neoliberalism has equal progressive potential to independent development of global south nations?
No.577016
>>576998>What, are you going to say that Chechnya was an independent state?Are you really going to open this can of worms? After it's declaration, the first war, and the peace treaty which required that it's be referred to as its own republic, it practically was until the second war. Only by narrow technicality could you argue it wasn't, Russia had practically no control over the region prior to the end of the second war.
No.577018
>>577017It’s going to be hilarious when he gets conscripted into ANZAC and blown up by a beautiful communist anti-ship missile
No.577019
>>576977I have a lot to say
Like death to america
No.577020
>>576991I bet you would support Taiwan independence too you fucking liberal shitstain
No.577021
>>577017It's not a case of who is "good" or "bad", communist don't moralise, it's a case of identify that either side winning is a defeat for the working class and that the focus of any communist is to support the working class not the bourgeoisie
>>577019>I have a lot to sayNo you don't, you are a memefag who insults other just based on nationality and i doubt your autism caused you to be so virulent and frankly nonsensical.
No.577022
>>577012>It isWell you can believe that but we're currently remarkably peaceful given where we are at in TRPF
Something has to give in your interlocking communist principles to explain this anomaly
Those wars you mentioned earlier that slaughter the working class happen to destroy the organic component of capital and act as a temporary counter tendency to the falling rate of profit
What I suggest should give is your belief that China is capitalist
For example if China was capitalist it should be having a recession approximately every decade or so
It is not, the growth is steady, and is maintaining itself beyond the point where if it was a dirigisme state it should stagnate
No.577023
>>577021>It's not a case of who is "good" or "bad", communist don't moralise, it's a case of identify that either side winning is a defeat for the working class and that the focus of any communist is to support the working class not the bourgeoisieGreat line, but we still have to work through your presupposition that all powers involved are capitalist
No.577024
>>577018DF-21s were made for scum like this
No.577025
>>577021supporting the working class means identifying forces that benefit the working class even in an inter-imperialist conflict
No.577026
>>577021Russia winning means that Ukraine stops being the springboard for NATO invasion into Russia and decreases tensions. Ukraine losing also means the defeat of anticommunists in Ukraine and thus the return of communists to Ukraine - communist parties becoming legal in Ukraine once more. Working class wins from all of that.
And on top of that Ukraine losing means economic ties with Russia restored and thus richer Ukrainians (as opposed to getting plundered by the West)
No.577027
>>577021>No you don't, you are a memefag who insults other just based on nationality and i doubt your autism caused you to be so virulent and frankly nonsensical.You're the dumb faggot who tried using their nationality to deflect criticism, kill yourself retard
No.577028
>>577020>Chechnya = TaiwanWe're doing some next level reaching here.
No.577029
>>577021>>577026Oh, and once more.
ALL COMMUNIST COUNTRIES ON EARTH support Russia in this conflict against NATO. Hell, Russia is supported by African Union by this point. Russia kept on offering peace deals which literally called for a neutral Ukraine, and that's it, which was refused time and time again, which makes countries of the world side with Russia
No.577030
>>577028Oh so you admit not all places in the world are the same? That there's important geopolitical and cultural contexts to be taken into account?
No.577032
>>577026The ice cold view is that it's best that the burgereich is tied up in the ukraine for as long as possible so the burgers can't start a way with China
I'm personally very disquieted by this notion even though I can't find the flaw
Anybody see one?
No.577033
I'm off to bed comrades
Next new thread needs to be "Iranian gusano edition"
Goodnight
No.577034
>>577032Best course of actions would be an area denial strategy which keeps USA out of any conflict whatsoever, so that USA cannot attack anybody anywhere
No.577035
>>577034We need to build a big beautiful wall, but to keep the yankees in
No.577036
>>577022>For example if China was capitalist it should be having a recession approximately every decade or soCapitalism isn't based on whether recessions exist, it's based on the creation of surplus value i.e profit
> Capitalist production is not merely the production of commodities, it is essentially the production of surplus-value. https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch16.htmThe very fact that economic "growth" is even discussed means that profit exists
>>577023Every nation on earth is capitalist
>>577025Neither outcome helps the working class, both nations will continue to exploit them and try to snuff out any labour action which would be easy with a mobilised armed force
>>577027You criticized literally none of my argument here
>>576705 and freely admitted that you only care about the us falling, nothing more and nothing to do with the working class, i brought up my race because you called me a yank
No.577037
>>577036Terminal case of ultra. Time to take him out back
No.577038
>>577037>reading marx = ultraNice
No.577039
>>577038You don't understand either Marx or Lenin. You are ultra
No.577040
>>577038No being a useless, retarded ultra = ultra
Why are you even denying bring an ultra? That’s literally what you are. Like you shouldn’t be ashamed of your own beliefs
No.577041
>>577039The very fact that i know what capitalism is means i understand marx and lenin better than most of this thread tbh
No.577042
>>577041> i know what capitalism isYou called China capitalist, buddy. That means you don't
No.577043
>>577038Like seriously, do you just want to be called a Marxist-Leninist because it sounds cooler to you? You are an ultra. You and ultras agree on everything 100%. Just own it. If that’s what you legitimately believe, it seems weird that you draw shame from it
No.577044
>>577040"ultra" or communism is a set of "beliefs", i'm a communist because i assist and analyse the labour movement, it's not somethinbg you subscribe to, you either are or you're not, it's not determinate on what you personally feel about it. If me just knowing basic marxism is me being a ultra to you then that's your problem
No.577045
>>577044* is not a set of "beliefs"
No.577046
>>577030>Oh so you admit not all places in the world are the same? That there's important geopolitical and cultural contexts to be taken into account?I never said otherwise, keep up with the conversation. You should apply this to yourself, as we're discussing the validity of the Chechnyan war as of now. I will state though that certain principle positions however are universal.
No.577047
>>577044Your "basic marxism" is just repeating ad nauseum that both sides are bad
No.577048
>>577044Did this make sense in your head or are you just retarded?
No.577049
>>577047THERE IS NO "good" or "bad" to it, there's just class conflict and this topic is the bourgeoisie throwing the working class into the slaughterhouse known as war so that more capital can be valorised. The fact this this is disputed just outs how anti-communist this place is
No.577051
>>577037>>577039>>577040>>577043That anon isn't being an "Ultra", he doesn't need to be an "ultra" for you to disagree with him, as if Marxist Leninists don't disagree on certain topics ad nauseam. Calling that anon an ultra to dismiss the argument made is dishonest petty shit, nobody has to be a completely different tendency to disagree.
No.577052
>>577051I agree but in this case he literally is an ultra lol
No.577053
>>577051He is ultra because he is an idealist who refuses to read theory correctly, refuses to adjust for reality, refuses to look at material conditions, and finally, because he believes anticommunist nonsense spouted by "communist" parties with 3 members tops over massive fucking communist parties with millions of members
No.577055
>>577036>Neither outcome helps the working classThis is why you're being called an ultra, because you think the only thing that can "benefit the working class" is pressing the big shiny red "instant communism" button and anything less than that is irrelevant to class war at best.
This is not the view of Marx or Lenin who used this funny thing called dialects or something like that to investigate all historic events and identify progressive currents. That is why Marx aggressively backed Britain against Tsarist Russia instead of saying "both sides bad", or why Lenin supported bourgeois Turkey, Iran and Sun Yat-Sen, and had a positive outlook on Japan's rise
The defeat of NATO in this war is objectively progressive and objectively benefits the global working class since it will weaken the stranglehold of Western hegemony and advance the global south's chances of developing independent productive forces and, as a result, a stronger and more independent working class. It's happening even now with the expansion of BRICS, Russia growing ties with LatAm and the African Union and the trend towards dedollarization
No.577056
>>577036>Capitalism isn't based on whether recessions exist, it's based on the creation of surplus value i.e profit>>577049>the bourgeoisie throwing the working class into the slaughterhouse known as warAttempting to, they're getting a little bit of war instead not enough to touch rate of profit
There's a lot of anomalies about the current situation that the near 100 year old slogans that perfectly described what was going on so people could get it without having to read a single bit of theory don't quite mesh together as well as they should
No.577057
>>577053>Communism is when it's indistinguishable from social democratic opportunism >CP flooded with everyone, including the bourgeois, petty, national and international, good! actually>The more coddled capital is the better!If he's an ultra-leftist you are clearly an ultra-rightist
No.577058
>>577057>Communism is when it's indistinguishable from social democratic opportunism Lmao, are you saying that China is the same as Sweden? Are you for reals?
>CP flooded with everyone, including the bourgeois, petty, national and international, good! actuallyJust because they are listed as capitalists doesn't mean they are. Forbes is not a credible source on a person being capitalist or not, say, Jack Ma's amazing fortune amounts to receiving pension from Alibaba and lets him buy souvenirs from flea markets.
>The more coddled capital is the better!What's that supposed to mean? China nationalizes private enterprise at will and breaks up huge companies whenever it's convenient to China, ignoring stock markets effects, investors' feefees and such
No.577059
>>577058China also houses the international capital to do whatever the fuck they want.
>b-but they nationalize sometimes!Oh so like any half-assed social democracy.
Where did the collectivization go btw?
No.577060
>>577055> why Lenin supported bourgeois Turkey, Iran and Sun Yat-Sen, and had a positive outlook on Japan's riseBecause they developed capitalism thus hastening communist revolution. It is not a blank check for all weaker nations. there are clearly outlined parameters within which the right to self-determination of nations is an appropriate demand for communists to make. Lenin describes these parameters in The Socialist Revolution and the Right of Nations to Self-Determination, where he writes:
> First, the advanced capitalist countries of Western Europe and the United States of America. <In these countries the bourgeois, progressive, national movements came to an end long ago.> Every one of these “great” nations oppresses other nations in the colonies and within its own country. The tasks of the proletariat of these ruling nations are the same as those of the proletariat in England in the nineteenth century in relation to Ireland.>Secondly, Eastern Europe: Austria, the Balkans and particularly Russia. Here it was the twentieth century that <particularly developed the bourgeois-democratic national movements and intensified the national struggle.> The tasks of the proletariat in these countries — in regard to the <consummation of their bourgeois-democratic reformation>, as well as in regard to assisting the socialist revolution in other countries — cannot be achieved unless it champions <the right of nations to self-determination>. In this connection the most difficult but most important task is to merge the class struggle of the workers in the oppressing nations with the class struggle of the workers in the oppressed nations.>Thirdly, the semi-colonial countries, like China, Persia, Turkey, and all the colonies, which have a combined population amounting to a billion. In these countries the bourgeois-democratic movements have either hardly begun, or are far from having been completed. Socialists must not only demand the unconditional and immediate liberation of the colonies without compensation —and this demand in its political expression< signifies nothing more nor less than the recognition of the right to self-determination> — but must render determined support to the more revolutionary elements in the bourgeois-democratic movements for national liberation in these countries and assist their rebellion—and if need be, their revolutionary war—against the imperialist powers that oppress them.The support for the self-determination of nations is essentially bourgeois in content, and forms a mere prerequisite to the communist reorganisation of society. In countries which have already undergone national-bourgeois revolutions (as i every nation on earth in the modern day), such a demand is entirely superfluous. Communists fight for this demand in countries that require it in order for the class struggle to develop more fully; but they do not remain within its confines. That is to say, they use the national question as a lever with which to pose the question of class power and property, as a springboard from which to enact the communist programme that will supersede national distinctions.
As Marx writes:
>While the democratic petty bourgeois want to bring the revolution to an end as quickly as possible, achieving at most the aims already mentioned, <it is our interest and our task to make the revolution permanent until all the more or less propertied classes have been driven from their ruling positions, until the proletariat has conquered state power and until the association of the proletarians has progressed sufficiently far – not only in one country but in all the leading countries of the world> – that competition between the proletarians of these countries ceases and at least the decisive forces of production are concentrated in the hands of the workers.For communists, the support of these nations in national liberation is never a goal in itself, but merely a means for the development of class antagonism between proletariat and bourgeoisie and the seizure of political power by the proletariat. It makes no sense to employ this means today, when the overwhelming majority of nations have already undergone some form of bourgeois-national revolution.
As Lenin puts it elsewhere:
> The epoch of bourgeois-democratic revolutions in Western, continental Europe embraces a fairly definite period, approximately between 1789 and 1871. This was precisely the period of national movements and the creation of national states. When this period drew to a close, Western Europe had been transformed into a settled system of bourgeois states, which, as a general rule, were nationally uniform states. <Therefore, to seek the right to self-determination in the programmes of West-European socialists at this time of day is to betray one’s ignorance of the ABC of Marxism.>
>In Eastern Europe and Asia the period of bourgeois-democratic revolutions did not begin until 1905. The revolutions in Russia, Persia, Turkey and China, the Balkan wars—such is the chain of world events of our period in our “Orient”. And only a blind man could fail to see in this chain of events the awakening of a whole series of bourgeois-democratic national movements which strive to create nationally independent and nationally uniform states. It is precisely and solely because Russia and the neighbouring countries are passing through this period that we must have a clause in our programme on the right of nations to self-determination.The first paragraph now describes the situation in pretty much every region of the world. There exists a 'settled system of bourgeois states' across the entire world. People like you make plenty of hay out of this whole 'support for weaker nations' to justify the basest nationalism. You fail to see that this is not some transhistorical right posited by principles of eternal justice, but a tactical demand posed by the communist movement in backwards and oppressed countries - e.g. Russia of the early 1900s. Nor is it an end in itself, so that communism becomes identical with nationalism. It is merely an expedient, a tactical adjustment of the communist movement to the uneven levels of development found in different countries.
Today, even the 'colonies' have largely undergone bourgeois-national revolutions, possessing (at least nominally) political independence while remaining in the de facto grip of the most economically powerful countries. This is an unavoidable reality of life under capitalism: some nations rise to the top, and others are trodden underfoot. The only way out of this ruthless competition is the revolution of the proletariat - a revolution that, thanks to the international character of the proletariat, must be international itself.
No.577061
>>577059>China also houses the international capital to do whatever the fuck they want.You haven't read the Chinese constitution and the law on joint owned companies, lmao. Suffice it to say that "whatever the fuck they want" in reality amounts to "Chinese company built up by Chinese SOE with technology donated by the West"
No.577062
>>577057No I was more leaning towards just a naive ML but the quote I made of his without comment is simply an ultra leftist position
It's one I'm emotionally sympathetic to it reminds me of when I was young and stupid, but when we look at actually existing socialism in the soviet union it is disqualified by this
This is of course an undeniably ultra leftist position
No.577063
You guys should've stopped replying when he said all nations on Earth, including Cuba and Vietnam, were capitalists.
No.577064
>>577059>>577061>Where did the collectivization go btw?China didn't have collectivization like in USSR to begin with, lmao. They had family unit farming, because they didn't have tractors like USSR did.
No.577065
Got banned from plebbit for calling Europeans snow monkeys. That list of Reddit NAFOids I got is useless now.
No.577066
>>577061>b-but Chinese law saysAhh the highly effective system of law in China that leads to routine overwork on the one hand (in the benefit of capital over labor) and brutal suppression of workers demands / strikes on the other (in the benefit of capital over labor)
Also for a "people's" democracy the municipalities sure are gentrified and impossible for the proletariat to get affordable housing less than a couple of hours from their place of municipal employment. It's almost like the infrastructure and communications… primarily benefit capital over labor!
No.577067
>>577065Snow monkeys are cute and fluffy, better call them crackers instead, give it a real edge along the tongue.
No.577069
>>577066> that leads to routine overworkshow proof lmao
>and brutal suppression of workers demands / strikes on the otherSame, show proof
>affordable housing less than a couple of hours from their place of municipal employment.Companies in China literally provide housing for their employees.
You repeat every glowie talking point about ANY country that is opposed to the West. Congrats for being so glowed
No.577070
>>577060You are underplaying uneven development in the modern world, most global south countries are in a position that is effectively not any different from that of Iran in the beginning of the 20th century. Their productive forces remain in the hands of the West and they lack subjectness. "Semi-colonial" relations that Lenin describes did not go anywhere.
No.577071
>>577070>You are underplaying uneven development in the modern world, most global south countries are in a position that is effectively not any different from that of Iran in the beginning of the 20th centuryThat's just blatantly false as iran had parely developed capitalism while even the most undeveloped nations today have more productive forces than the great powers of europe did, capitalism is ruthless competition and that will always be uneven development so the point to to overcome this competition not favour one side of it
No.577072
>>577071>while even the most undeveloped nations today have more productive forces than the great powers of europe didThey don't. Not only they can't use their militaries to export produce to other markets, they also have vastly different compositions of their industries, with those countries going for meme-y half-agrarian, half-service economies rather than industrial economies of Europe at the time
No.577073
>>577072>They don'tYes they do, sudan has a larger urbanised populace than england did when the communist manifesto was published.
No.577074
>>577073Urbanised =/= industrial workers
No.577075
>>577069>>577068>a guy from iran>who… is actually in sydney>and thinks cuba should be considered a capitalist nation Tale as old as time. These kinds of people should be ashamed for essentially internalizing western platitudes. You don't wanna be an Uncle Tom mouthpiece, but it must be difficult when you're working with fucking Australians.
No.577076
>>577074It literally means proletarians
No.577077
>>577076I don't care. Industrial workers are very specific kind of workers. Sudan doesn't have England of old's size of steel production, cement production, or whatever. You are blatantly wrong
No.577078
>>577075I'm a fucking Uncle Tom for pointing out that capitalist wars hurt the working class? Cunt shove a grenade into your fucking mouth. Go fly to tehran right now and tell striking oil workers that their lives will get better only when the government has less sanction.
No.577079
>>576751>The section i quoted isn;'t about colonialism and is direct critique of "defensive warsYes Lenin is saying oppressor classes who dominate world capitalism cannot wage defensive wars since they're competing to control a system waging war on the world. It then describes colonial and semi colonial nations which can wage such defensive wars, no matter who attacks first, because of this preexisting global war. The argument being mad is BRICS consists of colonial and semi-colonial state with a questionable stake in the colonial counter revolution from the 1980s on
>>577060>It makes no sense to employ this means today, when the overwhelming majority of nations have already undergone some form of bourgeois-national revolution.This belief is the problem, it reduces anti-imperialism/colonialism to formalities and ignores the neocolonialism that persists given them. We have only progressed from the national oppression of great nations to the national exploitation of a conglomerate on them. That some extent of the bourgeois revolution happened and some extent of world capitalism was expanded does not mean in the battle between that conglomerate and the rest of the world we are only dealing with oppressor classes battling each other where the only task is socialist revolution. We are still dealing with vastly unequal nations where equality is a legal formality which goes out the window with a crisis of imperialism, thus the problem of Ukraine's Russians. Capitalist development is still very incomplete and uneven on a global level, which has always been the Marxist view. The core-semi periphery antagonism is developing because imperialism wants to conserve this unevenness whereas semi colonial nations don't. The war on Russia is part of dividing the latter via containment strategies depended upon by the international order. All communists should reject this global dictatorship and form a unites front against any reassertion of the colonial foundations of that order, which triumph over any democratic pretenses of the latter as proven by Ukraine.
No.577080
>>577077They're workers, working class, they're propertyless wage labourers who sell their labour for income to survive, they're proletarians, what industry they work in doesn't change that.
> On the other hand, however, our notion of productive labour becomes narrowed. Capitalist production is not merely the production of commodities, it is essentially the production of surplus-value. The labourer produces, not for himself, but for capital. It no longer suffices, therefore, that he should simply produce. He must produce surplus-value. That labourer alone is productive, who produces surplus-value for the capitalist, and thus works for the self-expansion of capital. If we may take an example from outside the sphere of production of material objects, a schoolmaster is a productive labourer when, in addition to belabouring the heads of his scholars, he works like a horse to enrich the school proprietor. That the latter has laid out his capital in a teaching factory, instead of in a sausage factory, does not alter the relation. Hence the notion of a productive labourer implies not merely a relation between work and useful effect, between labourer and product of labour, but also a specific, social relation of production, a relation that has sprung up historically and stamps the labourer as the direct means of creating surplus-value.https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch16.htm>>577079> We are still dealing with vastly unequal nations where equality is a legal formality which goes out the window with a crisis of imperialism, thus the problem of Ukraine's Russians. Capitalist development is still very incomplete and uneven on a global levelThat's how capitalism works, its ruthless competition and there will always be nations that get the short stick, the point of communism is to overcome this competition not favour one side of it since by it's nature it is impossible for there to be a "equal" distribution.
No.577081
>>577078>Go fly to tehran right now and tell striking oil workers that their lives will get better only when the government has less sanction.Of course one should never say such demoralising things to striking workers but for a qualitative improvement in conditions is this not true unless some hypothetical Iranian Juche somehow managed to seize power out of nowhere?
No.577082
>>577080>They're workers, working class, they're propertyless wage labourers who sell their labour for income to survive, they're proletarians, what industry they work in doesn't change that.Sudan doesn't have more productive forces that Britain from a century ago. Service workers don't count. Sudan just doesn't have industries, Sudan has agrarian farmers and Sudan has service sector. Development of the Third World is like this, they have farmers, miners, and services, while industries are located elsewhere and buy resources for cheap. Profits from those resources are keeping services alive. In the end, it results in those countries having very little productive forces
No.577083
>>577082>Service workers don't countyes they do and i literally just posted a quote where marx points out that service workers are functionally the same as any other worker. It quite literally has a larger working class than mid 19th century england
> for a qualitative improvement in conditions is this not trueNo it's not, if the government makes more money they will still give the working class scraps, this is proven by the fact that the republic increased its security forces budget by over a third when the protests hit while their working class lived on scraps. If it has money to spend on guns and paramilitaries then noone should act as if they're broke
No.577084
>>577078I hate the Iranian government because the Ayatollah is a Muslim fanatic who killed communists to come to power and not much different in mindset from the Mujahideen.
But on a basic economic level, how do you think the government can pay the workers more money if they don't have access to the required funds and are being sanctioned to hell and back?
Like have you even thought this through? If you ask me for something and an American just broke into my house, stole all the furniture, set the house on fire, and blockaded all the roads nearby so the fire department can't assist, why on earth would you think that you're going to get it?
No.577085
>>576655China is currently the greatest obstacle to achieving socialism, far more than the USA is.
No.577086
>>577084>But on a basic economic level, how do you think the government can pay the workers more money if they don't have access to the required funds and are being sanctioned to hell and back?if capitalists make more money they will still give the working class scraps, because all they care about is profit, this is proven by the fact that the republic increased its security forces budget by over a third when the protests hit while their working class lived on scraps. If it has money to spend on guns and paramilitaries to kill and beat workers than noone should act as if they're broke
No.577087
>>577080>That's how capitalism works, its ruthless competition and there will always be nations that get the short stick, the point of communism is to overcome this competition not favour one side of it since by it's nature it is impossible for there to be a "equal" distribution.Yes but the point is to drill down to class based global inequality, which isn't possible with our global system of national exploitation. That is part of an inequality preceding class, that's why it shows up with uneven development. Abolishing it is part of revealing how we still don't get equal nations even after overthrowing exploiter nations, meaning socialist revolution rather than anti imperialism is necessary. But for now, national inequality obscures class inequality. It stunts class consciousness by privileging some workers, although not so much anymore, and exploiting others plus the rest of their nation. We have to resolve this dual problem and it can only be done through anti imperialism
No.577088
>>577083The money spent on upgrading security isn't for internal policing you idiot it doesn't take much money for tear gas and riot shields. it's because Iran fears that Israel will eventually decide to attack given that Netanyahu and the Zionists have been openly discussing this for years now and it's going to happen eventually.
No.577089
>>577088Really convenient then that they did it as soon as the largest labour action since the 70s happened. Maybe they'll say the workers are israeli spies, Judeo Bolsheviks maybe
No.577090
>1502727
wow.
No.577091
>>577083>yes they do and i literally just posted a quote where marx points out that service workers are functionally the same as any other worker. It quite literally has a larger working class than mid 19th century england
<Sudan has more service workers thnan 19th century England, this means Sudan is more developed than 19th century EnglandYikes. imagine trying to prove that "Sudan has more productive forces than England from 100 years ago" on a technicality of Sudan having more service workers
Agrarian worker from England had tractors, horses, trucks, fertilizers, seeds, etc etc. What about Sudan, buddy? Is Sudanese farmer's work as efficient as English farmer's back in the day?
No.577092
>>577091>Is Sudanese farmer's work as efficient as English farmer's back in the day?It almost certainly is and most likely more efficient unless technology past the 1850s just never reached Sudan.
No.577093
>>577087>It stunts class consciousness by privileging some workersThen why is the strongest labour movement in the world rn in iran a nation you would say is unevenly developed.
No.577094
>>577083This is all rather irrelevant to the capitalist development you say is now well cooked globally and ready to be pulled out of the oven for the carving knife
Sudan has a successful revolution right now instantly, now what?
>>577091At least they won't have to try and build their own tractors from scratch since the burger sanctions are losing their teeth in this new multipolar era
No.577096
>>577094>Sudan has a successful revolution right now instantly, now what?The workers revolution is a international one, its not localised to one nation.
No.577097
Lmao, that Putin's interview with voenkors. He straight up says that he approached the West with "we are now like you, we are bourgeois!" to join the West and got rebuked
>>577092Dude, how many there were agrarian workers in England in "1850s" and how many there are in Sudan?
No.577099
>>577097>that Putin's interview with voenkorslink?
No.577100
>>577099Dunno, I'm just watching the news on TV. There was such a clip
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDona1dUUFw No.577101
>>577096Very good a theoretically consistent response
It's ok to be an ultra lad
This here is an ecumenical board
We even welcome trotskyists
No.577104
>>577069>Company towns argument for residency Wow, reassuring!
>Show proof [of strikes]Are you really so out of touch with the Chinese labor movement that you don't even know these exist? Here are the major recent ones that you should've read about already:
Zhongshan riot (also touches upon the Hukou system problem that is partially the source for the rural/urban divide issue I touched upon in my last reply), Chinese Golf Factory Workers Strike (one prominent example of Chinese companies ignoring law for years until the workforce strikes), Jasic incident (example #2, this time involving the state coming down on the side of the tech corp and repressing communist organizers on the side of the workers). Then there are dozens of small events like this every year that I can't source as quickly right now, clearly you are clueless about those as well (that usually just get repressed and washed over with other big tech / international markets hopium headlines from Chinese media.
No.577105
>>577104>Then there are dozens of small events like this every yearMore like every week tbh
No.577106
>>577103Yes it's a tragedy isn't it
>>577104They also have dormitories and free food so a person can save up for a home
Wish I lived in china now as a young lad
Especially if I could get a job at an SOE
No.577107
>>577104Sound like their working class is in better shape than most in the world
No.577108
>>577106>>577107This idolisation of china is so fucking out of touch, the status of the working class in china is akin to England during the industrial revolution, like talk to literally any Chinese worker, China is in fact a capitalist wet dream if you live in the big cities and poor people are fucked in ‘rural’ and actual rural areas due to internal benefit restrictions such as the hukou system. McDonald’s and Rolex stores next to internal migrant camps whose kids can’t get schooling. But also a “town” (like the size of Salt Lake City lol) getting water and electricity and schools, but only the core is relatively wealthy and you leave like 10min out by high speed train and people in fields are literally carrying water buckets on their shoulders.
No.577109
>>577104>Using wikipedia to argueidiot libs constantly shitting up threads. the government usually sides with the workers and inequality is already trending downwards.
No.577110
>>577104>jasicOh yeah, that one time when there was an attempt to create an unofficial trade union, supported by random ass students and shunned by factory's workers themselves
>Zhongshan riotoh no, a random ass riot
>one prominent example of Chinese companies ignoring law for years until the workforce strikesoh no, country has companies that break the law
I still don't see the proofs I asked for
No.577111
>>577110>oh no, country has companies that break the lawDon't you retards literally brag about how this supposedly doesn't happen in china
No.577112
How does war between two capitalist factions help a simple worker live a better life?
No.577113
>>577108>next to internal migrant camps whose kids can’t get schooling.Are you projecting that off the assumption that no capitalist company would build schools for their migrant workers' kids?
No.577114
>>577111You sound idealist
No.577115
>>577078You can't extract condemnations into backing the USA, because that relies on a "common sense" understanding of world events that isn't consensus here. And the ulta, "left with is when virtue" guilt tripping works badly in an anonymous medium where there is no identity to be shamed into going along with grandstanding denunciations.
At any rate, how did it work out for cold war compradors and demsocs after the USSR fell? Did their lesser evil policies turn to greater evils under pressure from uncontested western imperialism? Did it come their turn to be overthrown? I'm told the workers in Libya have it great nowadays, after coddling the west.
No.577116
>>577113No i mean those kids literally can't afford schools, the hukou system grants or denies you access to education based on where you live and alot of families base most of their finances on sending just one child to school.
No.577117
>>577114Communism is, after all, a utopia.
No.577118
>>577103He shouldn't have been such a sassy, petty bitch and realized that the KAPD was the most competent leadership Germany had at the time, instead of 1a) strawmanning them 1b) leading to the majority of the soyfacing midwitted, frankly clueless rank-and-file "communists" the west over to convince themselves that Bolshevization, i.e. copy-pasting semi-feudal tactics was not only materialist but also was a good argument to begin with, just because "daddy Lenin scribbled so in a rushed polemic" (and contradicted his previous statements btw)
In hindsight it's obvious that Blshevization, i.e. social fascist submission and parliamentary cretinism
in the imperial core didn't work then and hasn't worked
once since. Then the USSR, surviving shortly by backpedaling into oblivion, disappeared from the world.
Meanwhile the proletariat still needs unions that correspond to their interests and intent. Still go nowhere in bourgeois parliamentary pseudo-democracy. Only makes itself know by mass action, dependent on competent, principled leadership. But this was apparently "bad", said the heirs of a statecraft that can't help itself slipping Kautskyite self-owns in by the backdoor (subsuming its proletarian dictatorship to capital).
No.577119
>>577110Go back to reddit, redliberal retard
No.577120
>>577116>the hukou system grants or denies you access to education based on where you liveCompany. Schools. Same as hospitals. Trade unions lobby for those things all the fucking time in China, they build dormitories, schools, stadiums, hospitals, etc etc. It's same old Soviet-style system.
No.577122
>>577115At no point did i promote "coddling the west" you disingenuous cunt, literally all i did was point the fact that the working class movement is the focus of communist and that bourgeoisie wars hurt it, i told you to tell that to workers to show how fucking inane it is and how all this multipolarity bullshit means absolutely nothing to the working class who suffer regardless. Telling workers that they should support the state that oppresses them on the off chance that they might have some trickle down benefit would easily and rightfully get a worker to spit in your face
No.577123
>>577112It's simple. On one hand you have America, which has a proven record of absolutely destroying the living standards of the poor and which turned Ukraine into the poorest country in Europe before the invasion even began.
On the other hand you have the record of "pro-Russian" presidents in Ukraine, who recorded the highest living standards for the country since independence.
No one is attempting to excuse away Russia, but when all economic statistics have been taken into account it's obvious that the Ukrainian worker will fare better under Russia's control than NATO's control.
Now, that does not mean Ukraine becomes socialist. That is contingent on the strength and education of the workers in Ukraine. But that's a problem for Ukrainian workers to solve after this war has been dealt with. For the Ukrainian workers, there is no "opting out" of the war and saying "a pox on both your houses" like self satisfied morons in the West want to do. The war is here. It has arrived. It is sweeping through the towns and cities and escalates with every day. Under these circumstances the Ukrainian socialists are forced to make a choice as to which side would leave them more free to act in the aftermath.
Let me tell you: it's not the side with Azov Battalion that they're going to choose lmfao.
No.577124
>>577120They don't build it in the rural areas, they're only available to people in the city so workers flock to cities where they live in deplorable conditions and work for scraps.
No.577125
>>577124>where they live in deplorable conditions and work for scraps.Migrant doesn't mean poor, stop being retarded. China has universal education and healthcare, the same way USSR had them: state guaranteed ones based on residency permits/hukou, and then a higher tier of education and healthcare provided by the place of work to you and your kids. Company's kindergartens were A THING in USSR, there are A THING in China today.
No.577126
>>577125>Migrant doesn't mean poor, stop being retardedI mentioned that these people move from the rural country side to the city which makes them migrants
> Company's kindergartens were A THING in USSR, there are A THING in China today.I'm talking about tertiary education
No.577127
>>577123>Let me tell you: it's not the side with Azov Battalion that they're going to choose lmfao.Does that mean the war wasn't necessary at all??
No.577128
>>577126>these people move from the rural country sideThat still doesn't make them poor. You are literally projecting Westoids' situation onto China, that Chinese companies are deliberately seeking out migrant labor for lower wages. You really need to prove this first
No.577129
>>577122>how all this multipolarity bullshit means absolutely nothing to the working class who suffer regardlesst. self-righteous, self-entitled, smugtard westerner mindset.
No.577130
>>577129>being a normal ass communist<t. self-righteous, self-entitled, smugtard westerner mindset.Is this a bit or have you so thoroughly poisoned your own mind to the point you unironically think like this?
No.577132
>>577128Look up how the hukou system works, you literally have more rights if you live in the city so workers go there and are paid as little as possible, it is quite literally a state enforced method to produce exploitable labour.
No.577135
>>577129So many eastern chauvinist ziggers smh
No.577137
>>577127It wasn't necessary, no. Back in 2014 Cucktin could have ended the farce of a fascist government as the coup regime lacked legitimacy and there were many in the Ukrainian military ready to defect. Now? After years of rebels getting killed, NATO training, indoctrination of youth in Azov kid camps, media control and jailing or arrest of all left wing opposition? Now a war has to run its course. The rot is too much.
No.577139
>>577132Dude, we literally have the example of anti-Soviet propaganda about Soviet residency permits. It's literally the same kind of nonsense. Stop being retarded
No.577141
>>577139It's quite literally how it works, the right to a job is only for those who live in cities so rural workers who are struggling go to the city to be paid shit wages
No.577143
>>577130This thread has honestly been fucking wild, like i can'g believe it turned out this way
No.577147
>>577132>>577139Like fucking hell, you can find lib articles about how USSR has no real universal healthcare because of muh residency limits! If you can't get healthcare everywhere in the country at will, this means there's no universal healthcare! Checkmate, commies! Same argument was used for homeless people, absolutely the same one used today by libs who claim that 500 millions Chinese are actually homeless
>>577141Fuck off, retard. Go study history of USSR, stop buying into every piece of anticommunist propagamda
No.577149
>>577130you don't live in a country sanctioned to the ass by the u.s. and its dollar with its
exorbitant privilege to know that multipolarity is precisely the answer that favors the working class subdued by the u.s. financial system.
No.577151
>>577147IM NOT EVEN TALKING ABOUT THE USSR my lord your mind is actually gone jesus christ
No.577153
>>577141Becoming less and less of an issue as the ghost cities the huwites on yootoobz was laughing at fill up
No.577156
>>577145t. yfw
STFU, retard.
No.577158
>>577149These nations have enough money to buy guns and hire police to beat and kill workers, they're not paupers
No.577160
>>577151IT'S THE SAME FUCKING ARGUMENT FROM 50 YEARS AGO - "AKSHUALLY, COMMIES ARE LYING ABOUT FULL EMPLOYMENT, UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE AND NO HOMELESS PEOPLE!"
No.577162
>>577135>So many eastern chauvinist ziggers smhCan you blame them given the state of the west?
No.577169
>>577158>this level of deflectiont. <t. self-righteous, self-entitled, smugtard westerner mindset.
No.577171
>>577160it's not a lie you can quite literally look up its conditions and it directly admits that there are certain benefits based on if you live in the city
No.577173
>>577166t. self-righteous, self-entitled, smugtard westerner mindset.
now, go back to reddit.
No.577175
>>576531Oh tell us how you slew them old Afghans two by two
Like the Injuns they had spears and bows and arrows
How bravely you faced one with your 30mm gun
And frightened them damn natives to the marrow
No.577178
>>577123>it's obvious that the Ukrainian worker will fare better under Russia's control than NATO's control.This implies the war will end with a total Russian victory and a total takeover of the Ukrainian state which is not what Russia claims they want to do. Even if this did happen, this would mean a Russian occupational period that will most likely be filled with Western-backed insurrections turning the hot war into an asymmetrical proxy war. None of these things will help workers at all. None of these powers have the interests of the workers in mind anyway.
>>577162>Can you blame them given the state of the west?Yes. East? West? Idiots deserve to be ridiculed.
No.577180
>>577171Go look up Soviet residency permits, ffs. Hukou is the same thing. You are buying into an age old anticommunist lie. STOP BEING RETARDED
No.577182
>>1502846
/chug/ and its consequences has been a disaster for leftypol
No.577184
>kill yourself
<no you kill yourself
>ur a retard
<no u are a retard
>look at this brainlet soyjak pic, taht's what you look like!
<you are le glowie fbi
>cope seethe cope
now I remember why I don't come here
No.577185
>>577118>Blshevization, i.e. social fascist submission lol
No.577188
>>577180You're having an aneurysm, reread the reply chain or stop posting.
No.577190
>>577171>>577180There's even the same fucking lie about "collective farm serfs" getting repurposed. Despite the massive growth of cities, massive migration to cities, there still are retards who think that USSR/China made serfs out of rural folks and forbade them from moving anywhere
No.577192
>>577158the fact that you think basic police gear and funding a police force are expensive is an unintentional revelation of how little actual thinking happens in your head. extremely poor countries can still easily maintain a police forces.
No.577194
>>577184See you again tomorrow :)
No.577197
>>577178>>577164It's okay to be buttmad that your tired old empires are on their way out, and with them, the treats you get from imperialist superprofits and socdem welfare state bribery.
The majority of the world doesn't care, as it was suffering for your pleasure already and will be going forward without you.
No.577198
>>577192>extremely poor countries can still easily maintain a police forces.This should tell you everything you need to know about "poorer" nations. No matter what they still make sure they can suppress workers
No.577202
>>577188You should stop being retarded. I plain and simply say to you that all your knowledge about Hukou and migrants is fucking wrong anticommunist propaganda. You are believing in deliberate lies. And I show you the example of well-known myths about USSR, such as retardation about residency permits.
No.577204
>>577143> like i can'g believe it turned out this wayLol, can you really not?
Everyone I have spoken to who is not a terminally online with severe mental illness minimized this thread a long time ago.
No.577206
>>577197No his right about arsemad butthurt insurrectionists causing a mess
Maybe even some terrorism in west euro for good measure
It's the standard burger playbook for this situation
Operation Gladio, stay behind units etc
No.577208
>>577204i just didn't think it would get this bad, like to the point that the guy gets called a gusano just for saying the most basic normal ass communist points
No.577210
>>577178take off that mao flag right now. your entire argument revolves around war sucking but your supposed political hero was quite happy with full on decades of war as long as the end result was an improvement over what cane before. NATO losing is progressive. Azov and other fascists getting annihilated is progressive. the IMF getting kicked out of Ukraine is progressive. wall st and blackrock losing their claims over ukrainian resources is progressive. all you do is look at the casualties but that's not even a marxist analysis that's a retarded hippie liberal "wars are bad" analysis.
No.577212
>>577206>>577197Schizophrenia is counter revolutionary with lumpen characteristics
No.577214
China good
Russia good
USA bad
NATO bad
EU bad
simple as
No.577216
>>577208Maybe you will grow up one day.
No.577218
>>577208>, like to the point that the guy gets called a gusano just for saying the most basic normal ass communist pointsZiggers have been veering very far from communism since the start. If anything this thread is probably better than it has been in the past, at least you do not get 2+ week bans by retard zigga jannies for promoting an anti-war position anymore (afaik), which was common place for the first 4 or so months of the war.
No.577222
wouldn't it be convenient to burn all those windbreaks, so the ukrops have nowhere to hide in the open fields?
No.577224
>>577212No they made a coherent statement
Would you like me to translate it from imageboard jargon to English?
No.577226
>>577218>at least you do not get 2+ week bans by retard zigga jannies for promoting an anti-war position anymore (afaik), which was common place for the first 4 or so months of the war.Reminds me of Che from back in the day lmao
No.577228
>>577185That is in effect what happened. In the west the disoriented communists had two paths. Either enter into "unity" with the social chauvinists who had supported their bourgeois states in WW1 and who had shown their true colors at the breakdown of the 2nd International (KPD line, of which Lenin supported) or establish a revolutionary party in sync with the councils/soviets and revolutionary mass actions on the ground.
Bolshevization in the capitalist west led to self-destruction at the hands of social fascists, reactionary fascists and race obsessed nazis, all who of course outmanouvered the proletariat in their own rigged bourgeois institutions, while Lenin and the KPD told the revolutionary, council-backed mass proletarian uprising to stand down and "be pragmatic" LOL.
No.577230
>>577220I would like to emphasize however
>>577197This is emotionally satisfying but regardless there will be western terrorism and we should note that fact
No.577232
>>577214Amen.
>>577184Remember to punch your job time card tomorrow, or you won't get credited lpol coins for your daily visit.
Vidrel:
>Zelensky's adviser Mikhail Podolya talking garbage about the African delegation that visited ukraine. No.577233
>>577218Imagine taking an "anti-war position" in 1943 when the Soviets counterattack. Most western leftists would see you as very SUS.
No.577235
>>577228Makes a nice change from the "social fascism line doomed the Comintern".
They never had "unity" with the social democratic parties, they tried to win them over to communism. Ultra leftists failed at maintaining power in Hungary and failed at a revolution in Germany.
No.577237
>>577218>an anti-war position ukraine kicked the table of negotiations right after Russia withdrew from Kharkov and Kiev.
and that's why you get banned, you utter retard.
No.577239
>>577233Shoutout to all my french stalinists who ceased all labour activity in support of the molotov ribbentrop pact only for them to get killed by fascists anyway
No.577241
>>577197> your tired old empires are on their way outWhy are you implying that I think that is a bad thing?
>>577210Show me the communist revolutionaries fighting a two-front war against any side here in order to establish a socialist government, I'll wait.
No.577242
We dun goofd, Multipolaroos.
https://www.kyivpost.com/opinion/18374The irony is so funny.
No.577244
>>577232Ukrainians talking shit about global south countries when they've slipped behind Iran and some higher end African countries in economic development will never stop being sad and pathetic
No.577245
>>577242>our side gets bigger and more centralized>their side gets balkanized and decentralizedHuh
No.577247
>>577232hopefully this guy joins budanov soon
No.577251
>>577242Interesting how they never argue to decolonise the USA
No.577260
>>577256The sad and surreal part about these videos is always how the gang-pressed rural mobiks who want no part in the war speak surzhik or at least with a heavy ukrainian accent, while the "elite" urbanoids and nazis who want to fight the orcs until the last hohol for "muh land and language" tend to speak and write in pure Russian
No.577262
>>577173We westerners are smug because we are right and you are wrong.
No.577264
>>577262Now this is sChiZo posting
No.577266
>>577233Ruzzia is the equivalent of Nazi Gernany, so the principled Marxist position is to send more weapons to Ukraine.
No.577274
>>577266New friend
New FRIENDS
SO many NEW FRENDS
Welcome to /leftypol/ welcome one and all
/leftypol is a board of peace No.577278
>>577262>am I out of touch?>no, surely it's the global south with their uyghe.. brown and black people that are always wrong.t.
>>577266sure,
until the last ukrainian, we know mr. lindsay graham, now go back to reddit.
No.577280
>>576957>This is not an argument. I can make up venerable elder MLs too. This is an OBJECTIVELY ultra position that ignores material reality, and then on top of that to protect their idealism conjures up a conspiracy theoryHow the hell was being against the Chechnyan War an "ultra" position? Prove how it is "objectively" so.
>>576966>Oh I dunno, maybe anons supported an independent state that doesn't want to murder itself for the benefit of imperialists? Who didn't want to antagonize China?The existing Myanmar government wasn't an "independent state that wanted that didn't want to murder itself for the benefit of imperialists", it was literally a preexisting imperialist lackey who had fucked up its situation so hard that the existing corporate military families of the country grouped together to overtake the state. As in, the military and the dominant corporations of the country were so intertwined that generally these corporations were headed by family members of prominent generals and officers, or those generals and officers themselves. It wanted to militarize further for the sake of it's existing capitalist industry you faggot. There were actual communists there that operated as a third option outside of the preexisting government and the new one, but few of you faggots wanted to support them, then mind fucked yourselves when China supported the government prior to the coup, which went against your narrative to support the military coup.
>Holy shit, you really are collecting every piece of anticommunist/pro-imperialist rhetoric spouted by ultras.Where have I done that? You don't even understand what you are talking about, because you haven't even bothered to research anything about it. Seriously, what are you even talking about?
No.577283
>Chechnyan War
prove me this is not the same pathetic troll recycling over and over again the same b8s.
No.577287
>>577283Two different people, I'm the one who got into the argument about it because some anons in their fervor regarding Ukraine jumped off the deep end and made the absurd claim that Russia doesn't engage in imperialism period, and that Chechnya was actually super justified and based. Which is something that would be unheard of prior to this war.
No.577289
>>576966>an independent state that doesn't want to murder itself for the benefit of imperialists?<MyanmarLOL!
Nobody can believe this in any honest sense of the word.
The takes really are off the charts today. This has to be a fbi.gov raid.
No.577290
>>577287what was actually unheard before this war is western liberals pretending like Al-Qaeda supplied and funded jihadis were heckin wholesome freedom fighters evilly imperialized by Ruzzia
No.577294
>Chechnya was actually super justified
>RREEEE NOO YOU HAVE TO ALLOW YOUR STATE TO BE DISINTEGRATED BY A MUSLIM REACTIONARY WAHHABITE AL-QAEDA SEPARATIST GROUP OR ELSE YOU ARE NOT COMMUNIST
same old, same old troll.
No.577298
>>577290>what was actually unheard before this war is western liberals pretending like Al-Qaeda supplied and funded jihadis were heckin wholesome freedom fightersWhat the fuck are you talking about? This has explicitly been the American line time and time again through literally our whole lifes..
No.577302
>>577298Most westoid libs on the 'net didn't know or care about Chechnya before 24.02 when they suddenly became huge Ichkeria stans
No.577304
>>577290>what was actually unheard before this war is western liberals pretending like Al-Qaeda supplied and funded jihadis were heckin wholesome freedom fighters evilly imperialized by RuzziaIs this ironic? The issue of Chechnya was the how a peace treaty was completely broken and an invasion undertaken for no other probable cause then spillover from an already on going internal conflict that in no way necessitated Russia taking the country wholesale, only to install another Islamist.
No.577306
>>577294>Chechnya was actually super justified>RREEEE NOO YOU HAVE TO ALLOW YOUR STATE TO BE DISINTEGRATED BY A MUSLIM REACTIONARY WAHHABITE AL-QAEDA SEPARATIST GROUP OR ELSE YOU ARE NOT COMMUNISTHow is this logic any different then US involvement post-9/11 in Afghanistan? And on top of that, the end result wasn't non-Islamist separatists taking power over the Islamist ones, it was a still Islamist Pro-Russian leader being installed. So what was the actual fucking goal here if you just put an Islamist in power anyway?
No.577310
Imagine comparing u.s. intervention outside its borders with Chechnya, inside Russia's borders.
lmao. the troll dumbified himself.
No.577312
>>577304> to install another IslamistWho also switched sides, so it's pretty much the same thing minus having the right loyalties
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akhmad_Kadyrov No.577314
>>577300>>577309i mean, they literally just played as the soviet union, used console commands to dissolve the ussr, then played as ukraine, annexed russia and belarus, and then spectated as the german reich. it does look like it's late in the game given that germany already conquered poland.
No.577316
>>577302>Most westoid libs on the 'net didn't know or care about Chechnya before 24.02 when they suddenly became huge Ichkeria stansAgain, most MLs opposed the invasion you faggot. This isn't a western lib thing, this is me witnessing the jarring surreal spectacle of MLs doing a double backflip on this and invalidating our prior position.
No.577318
>>577310>Imagine comparing u.s. intervention outside its borders with Chechnya, inside Russia's borders.We're just going to ignore the first peace treaty, huh?
No.577319
>>577306>How is this logic any different then US involvement post-9/11 in Afghanistan?The no map of the burger ideology strikes again
One is on the other side of the planet, the other is the equivalent of texas seceding
No.577321
>>577306>>577306>Kadyrov is an islamistHe is not, there's a significant difference between a muslim conservative and an islamist. There were public executions and open-air slave markets under the jihadi Ichkerian regime, there are none currently and Chechnya is technically secular.
>How is this logic any different then US involvement post-9/11 in Afghanistan?I see no difference, you're right. After all Afghanistan borders the US and regularly attacks the southern states across the border, massacring towns and trying to incite a jihad.
>>577316Are those MLs in the room with us right now?
No.577323
>>577314What about Crimea? 🤔
No.577325
>>577093>Then why is the strongest labour movement in the world rn in iran a nation you would say is unevenly developed.It may be more militant, but I wouldn't say labor is stronger in the periphery. Its revolution wouldn't spread and it'd be more preoccupied with opposing imperialism than fighting neighbors over capitalism.
That's kind of the point, class struggle is stunted by global contradictions created by uneven development
No.577327
>>577323seems they forgot to annex it.
No.577329
>>577318What
about the first peace treaty? It
didn't recognize the independence of Ichkeria. Russia pulled out troops but the question of Ichkeria's status was set aside until 2001. By 2001 it turned into one big jihadi training camp and tried to invade Dagestan so further negotiations were obviously off the table.
No.577332
>>577300I thought it was German Reich but then I saw they left Crimea lol
No.577334
>>577329I already reported the troll. not gonna give him more (You)s for the sake of his own sexual amusement.
Why else, but being a masochist, that he wanted to come here and get banned using deflections, strawmen, and more stupid pro-western arguments against Russia No.577338
Kind of surprising how a WSJ Russian correspondent was allowed to put forward his Bucha narratives unchallenged on Yasha Levine's podcast
No.577340
>>577330AES is a meme, currently the strongest labour movements are in Iran, China and the indian subcontinent (Namely india itself and Bengal), and i'm talking about the actual working class not the capitalist state
No.577341
>>577319>One is on the other side of the planet, the other is the equivalent of texas secedingThe distance makes no difference, we could be talking about the US intervening in Mexico. After the first war and the treaty, it's not at all the same as Texas succeeding. It's as if the US dissolved, then during part of the dissolution a country declared independence, then a war was fought with a new country made up of former US states, then that war ended with a peace treaty naming that newly independent country, then a few years later that peace treaty is broken and an invasion occurs because internal conflict partially spills over into the other state, leading to the state ceasing to be and the government replaced.
>>577321>He is not, there's a significant difference between a muslim conservative and an islamist. There were public executions and open-air slave markets under the jihadi Ichkerian regime, there are none currently and Chechnya is technically secular.<Chechnya is technically secular This is fucking ridiculous, Kadyrov supports complosary education on Sharia in schools and actively enforces Islamic based laws. He's not a jihadi, but he is an Islamist, and would very much prefer Sharia wholesale.
>I see no difference, you're right. After all Afghanistan borders the US and regularly attacks the southern states across the border, massacring towns and trying to incite a jihad.The Chechnyan government itself didnt attack Russia, this is a dishonest argument. And you can bring up Islamist terrorist attacks in the US in the same regard.
No.577343
I see mods are asleep.
Well, seems we have for now to accept that what Russia did to Chechnya=the u.s. did to Afghanistan, kek.
>And you can bring up Islamist terrorist attacks in the US in the same regard.
lmao. the brightest argument brought, ever.
No.577345
>>577329>What about the first peace treaty? It didn't recognize the independence of Ichkeria. Russia pulled out troops but the question of Ichkeria's status was set aside until 2001. But it recognized it as an entity, with an agreed peace treaty.
>By 2001 it turned into one big jihadi training camp and tried to invade Dagestan so further negotiations were obviously off the tableThe IIPB wasn't the government, and the government obviously didn't get along with them given the internal conflict ongoing issue the country. Did Russia assist the government, despite members having warned it of the invasion? No, it took the entire country wholesale.
No.577347
>>577341The Khasavyurt Treaty was a nothingburger. It was a declaration of freezing the conflict until 2001 and that's it. There was no recognition of Ichkeria's independence. Arguably Ichkeria broke the treaty first because it called for human rights and religious freedoms and all that feel good stuff, and they instantly established sharia and jihad as soon as Russian troops left.
No.577348
>>577334>MODS MODS MODS Pathetic lol. You can't ban me for having a disagreement regarding a war more then two decades ago, or are you going to start banning people regarding conflicts during the Sino-Soviet more then 50 years ago too? This is sad that you have to go this low.
No.577350
>>577343>Well, seems we have for now to accept thatDo you need the mods to come here and validate your opinion in order to be able to sleep at night?
No.577352
>>577184It's the best way to shit up the thread and distract from the events of the last 24 hours
No.577354
> You can't ban me for having a disagreement
get rekt, bad faith arguments and sectarian garbage are bannable offenses.
>need the mods to come here and validate your opinion in order to be able to sleep at night?
no, I like the likes of you screeching because get banned for comparing Afghanistan to Ichkeria, and nay other pathetic recourses to say 'le Russia bad', 'shame on you for supporting Russia in their denazification', and putting down the pretensions of nato.
No.577356
>>577345>Did Russia assist the governmentRussia did in fact propose a joint operation against the islamists to Maskhadov. He ignored it and started mobilizing
No.577360
>>577358>having a normal one>[thing] understanderyou dumbified yourself
No.577362
>>577358things must be really ugly for ukraine, that we only receive recycled troll topics.
No.577364
>>577354>sectarian garbage are bannable offenses.If this was true half of this thread's regular larpers would be perma'd long ago.
No.577366
>>576688>Every nation has developed capitalism, sudan one of the least developed nations has a larger manufacturing industry and urbanised populace than england did when the communist manifesto was publisheddeveloped capitalism or developed
capitalismwe went over this last thread it is necessary fpr communist development to overtake imperialist development in a given period for self defense or it gets overthrown. development is relative not absolute. having achieved capitalism isn't the same as being developed, especially when the industrial development in your nation is exclusively geared towards extraction and provides no material benefit to the people. the entire point of the critique of imperialism is this uneven development materially produces and reproduces its own conditions of exploitation.
>>576705>who just need to wait and suffer you are supposed to be organizing a revolution in your own country. this is why international communists explicitly say not to rely on them to export revolution to you - the people who best know which tactics and strategy to apply to the conditions in a given country are the people who live there. multi-polarity is a countdown timer for the coming crisis in the west. you have until then to organize a sufficient base to take advantage of it.
>>576725>why are we waiting <implying>>576788>Lenins definition imperialism is when capitalist nations forcefully export capitalits not, its when the productive forces in a given territory are fully developed and the rate of profit falls such that its required for monopolies to expand outside their borders deindustrialize competitors and underdeveloped nations for extraction. thats why its called capitalism in decay and why it is regressive and not progressive. imperialism is a specific stage in capitalism that happens because of the internal material contradictions within capitalist development it is not a policy position and its not when big country is mean to small country.
>>576875purging cia backed nazi/wahabbi terrorists is not imperialism whether its in syria afghanistan chechnya yugoslavia or ukraine
>>576962>security but also to establish power projectionthese are the same thing "power projection" is not imperialism
>>576970>Putin and his porkoid friends entire interest is probably in the trillions of dollars worth of Rare Earth ores scattered across Ukrainian lands.its safer and more profitable to invest in development within underdeveloped russia which is why most russian oligarchs are against the war in addition to it threatening their profits
>>577124>proletarianization is badkulaks thought so too but those heckin authoritarians wouldn't let people have the freedom to be peasants.
No.577367
So I saw the text on the thumbnail of the military summary channel but didn't watch it because I thought it would be too sad
Is it as bad as it seems for the poor ukrainian pawns of the greater Nazi regime between two oceans?
No.577370
>>577358NATO is the vanguard of the proletariat.
No.577372
>>577287>Russia doesn't engage in imperialism periodImperialism is not something you "engage" in it is a stage of capitalism.
From 1991-2008 Russia was a neocolony of the United States and deindustrialized by western imperialist monopoly corporations. Russia is currently independent periphery nation in the stage of ascending developmental capitalism therefore it can not be imperialist. When Russia has fully developed its industry and exhausted technological development within its own borders such that it is necessary for its corporations to expand outside Russian due to the falling rate of profit and lack of available investment opportunities then you can talk about inter-imperialism. When Russian oil monopolies control so much of the global supply that the market becomes uncompetative and they can set prices(the definition of monopoly on which imperialism relies) that dictate transport and in turn global trade, then you can talk about inter-imperialism.
No.577374
>>577372Why is it that imperialism
must come into fruition once technological advancement within the nation is fully achieved? That doesn't make much sense to me, because either way imperialism alleviates the falling rate of profit, and it doesn't stand to reason that skipping a step of industrializing Russia from the west to the easy is necessary.
No.577380
>>577347>The Khasavyurt Treaty was a nothingburger. It was a declaration of freezing the conflict until 2001 and that's it. There was no recognition of Ichkeria's independence. Not independent, but the treaty has to at the very least recognize the government as a separate political entity to even be a thing.
>Arguably Ichkeria broke the treaty first because it called for human rights and religious freedoms and all that feel good stuff, and they instantly established sharia and jihad as soon as Russian troops leftThat's not how it works you fag, a treaty isn't voided because you say you are leaving for X reasons, and then have to deal with Y scenario after. Both you and I know that this logic doesn't hold up in most cases, don't even try it. "You left arguing in favor of freedom, but you don't seem very free, so war" doesn't seem like a good reason to fuck up both the Russian and Chechnyan population.
No.577381
>>577372>From 1991-2008Your response doesn't make sense in regards to what was being arguing about, did you even read the discussion?
No.577383
>>577374because it historically doesn't happen. its safer and more profitable to invest in development in your own nation until that is no longer an option. market competition dictates the winners and losers at a given level of technological development until monopolies consolidate so people who chose riskier investments lose out over the long term. british industrialists build water wheels until all the rivers are dammed in england then they move to asia, after the steam engine comes on the scene the build factories in every city then expand to india etc. industrial capital gets profit from building industry, while finance capital gets profit from paper pushing and sleights of hand that exploit the difference in technological development between the host nation and its colony. finance capital gains majority control of policy at the point where technological development stagnates because its the only remaining avenue for profit available.
No.577387
>>577360oh no, he used internet words. how dreadful! let us speak then like erudite scholars of the 19th century.
No.577393
>>577380>Not independent, but the treaty has to at the very least recognize the government as a separate political entity to even be a thing. Uh not really, you can have an agreement between a federal government and a subnational entity which isn't independent. In fact the agreement appears to be carefully worded to avoid mentioning Ichkeria's legal status and the nature of its relationship with Russia at all.
>That's not how it works you fag, a treaty isn't voided because you say you are leaving for X reasons, and then have to deal with Y scenario after.My point is that you hold up Khasavyurt as some concrete treaty that Russia villainously violated which makes it in the wrong, when it didn't actually contain a single binding point. It was just "let's decide this later, we're unilaterally taking out troops for now".
>>577381Have you tried reading their post past the first sentence?
No.577395
>>577391Ngl this is an annoying metric. If you support the SMO are you forced to support Turkish incursions into Iraq or Syria? I mean it's on their border.
No.577398
>>577395???
Did Turkey invade to keep NATO
away?
No.577403
>>577354>Implying any of that was stated Dude, fucking cope, and what I stated was primarily in regard to Chechnya.
>>577356>Russia did in fact propose a joint operation against the islamists to Maskhadov. He ignored it and started mobilizingMaskhadov literally offered a peace plan to Russia to combat the jihadists in the region he himself didn't want. The Russian government turned it down.
>>577366>purging cia backed nazi/wahabbi terrorists is not imperialism whether its in syria afghanistan chechnya yugoslavia or ukraine The wahabbi terrorists the US military fought and have been fighting in the middle east are CIA backed, are they not engaging in imperialism anymore then?
>>577389>Because Chechnya is actually part of Russia (and Xinjiang is actually part of China) while America invaded several countries that not only didn't attack them, but countries that the 9/11 hijackers weren't even from. Why does this have to be explained to you?Dude, it wouldn't be justified even if they were from those countries, what don't you understand? Chechnya had its own independent government at the time, there was no reason to do what it did besides to make an opportunistic land grab as opposed to actually working with the government.
>>577391Bitch, we are talking about Chechnya, not the US and Ukraine.
No.577404
>>577398If you asked a Turk they'd probably say the PKK poses more of a threat to Ankara than NATO does to Moscow, and tbh they'd probably be right. NATO was a crumbling alliance before February of last year, now they're trying to open offices in motherfucking Japan. I'm sure China is very pleased about this outcome.
No.577407
>>577393>Uh not really, you can have an agreement between a federal government and a subnational entity which isn't independent. In fact the agreement appears to be carefully worded to avoid mentioning Ichkeria's legal status and the nature of its relationship with Russia at all.I never said it was independent, I said that on some level it has to recognize the government of Chechnya as having secured a peace.
>My point is that you hold up Khasavyurt as some concrete treaty that Russia villainously violated which makes it in the wrong, when it didn't actually contain a single binding point. It was just "let's decide this later, we're unilaterally taking out troops for now"Decide this later" isn't "we're going to break peace at the first opportunity and take back all the land". And why do you have to lie?
<Peace Treaty and Principles of Interrelation between the Russian<Federation and the Chechen Republic IchkeriaMoscow, 12 May 1997
<The esteemed parties to the agreement, desiring to end their centuries-long antagonism andstriving to establish firm, equal and mutually beneficial relations, hereby agree:
<1. To reject forever the use of force or threat of force in resolving all matters of dispute.<2. To develop their relations on generally recognised principles and norms of internationallaw. In doing so, the sides shall interact on the basis of specific concrete agreements.
<3. This treaty shall serve as the basis for concluding further agreements and accords on thefull range of relations.
<4. This treaty is written on two copies and both have equal legal power.<5. This treaty is active from the day of signing>Have you tried reading their post past the first sentence?Yes, agreeing that Russia is an imperialist puppet between said dates, when we are arguing about Chechnya, makes no sense.
No.577411
>>577409/ukraine/ troll general.
Reminder that europe has never pushed back one single time u.s. impositions in geopolitics. making this
>>577404 a meaningless point.
No.577413
>thread gets uncycled
>now it gets filled up quick with the dumbest off topic shit possible
>soon the board will have no other threads
What are you doing sirs?
No.577415
>>577407>Yes, agreeing that Russia is an imperialist puppet between said dates, when we are arguing about Chechnya, makes no sense.A nation is either imperialist or it isn't. That post outlined why Russia wasn't imperialist due to the character of its economy, which is what the Marxist definition of imperialism is based on.
No.577417
>>577411>lol i troll u>merely pretending to be retardedThat gives these idiots way too much credit. No wonder they always rely on pure theory and quote Marxists like fucking scripture - their grasp on geopolitics is non-existent.
>>577413The usual.
No.577419
>>577403>The wahabbi terrorists the US military fought and have been fighting in the middle east are CIA backed, are they not engaging in imperialism anymore then? They weren't fighting terrorists. The US was imperialist in the middle east because they were destroying oil pumps and refineries along with water and electricity plants to remove competitors in the global oil market and ensure enough setbacks so that they wouldn't be able to redevelop for decades and in order to prop up the monopoly cartel of Exxon-Shell-BP so they could use their leverage in market share to dictate trade across the whole world.
No.577421
>"we're going to break peace at the first opportunity and take back all the land"lmao the Afghanistan=Ichkteria troll doubles down. As if already Russians didn't have information of al-qaeda going to secede the territory. Reminder:
>In February this year (2000), Zelimkhan Andarbayev, a former President of Chechnya visited Pakistan on his way to Afghanistan. He was granted a visa by the Pakistan government. He carried out an extensive tour of Pakistan to garner support for Chechen militants. Qazi Hussain Ahmed of Jamaat-I-Islami was instrumental in contributing about $200,000 to Zelimkhan. The former Chechen President visited many mosques and met militant leaders of numerous factions and organisations and raised unspecified amounts for the Chechen war effort. It was all accomplished under the benevolent eye of the present Pak government. The militant groups and organisations headquartered in Pakistan and the Taliban controlled areas were quite receptive to Zelimkhan’s visit. On various occasions since 1992, such groups have exported arms, mercenaries and trained militants of various nationalities to Chechnya. The route used for such exports has been from Pakistan to Afghanistan, through Tazikistan and thereafter straight to the Caspian Sea and then cutting across Daghestan to Chechnya. Harkat-I-Jihadi Islam, a militant group is believed to have used this route to dispatch about a platoon worth of holy warriors to Chechnya to fight against the Russians in the current Russo-Chechen conflict. 16 It is also believed that one Maulana Dadullah had taken a Taliban contingent to Chechnya as reinforcements for jihad against the Russians. Apparently, the activities of extremists have been spurred by the visit of Zelimkhan. Taliban’s Foreign Minister Wakil Ahmed Muttawakil said that, “It is Muslim world’s shame that it does not support Chechens. They are my brothers. They are Muslims. The only solution is to help Chechens”. He went on to state that they were not terrorists and they were fighting for freedom and independence from Russia.
>Al Badr is also one such group that has organised fund raising activity for the Chechen war effort. Even Sipah-e-Sahaba, the militant Sunni fundamentalist group joined the bandwagon to support Andarbayev’s effort. 18 All these groups exhort the government to declare jihad against Russia so that they could legitimately send militants to North Caucasus. Zelimkhan in an interview during his visit to Pakistan stated “I have seen and studied all systems, nothing will work but the Islamic system”. He believed, like any other radical Muslim, that Shariah and jihad were the answer to all problems and ills of a society and the nation. Jihad was the best course of action against injustice and the terror of the powerful.
>In January this year the Taliban government recognised the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria as a separate country and Zelimkhan Andarbayev was appointed as the envoy to Taliban controlled Afghanistan. Russia not only raised objections to the visit of the Chechen to Pakistan but had also protested regarding Islamabad’s failure to oppose the recognition of Chechnya by the Taliban. Pakistan’s official stance is to regard Chechnya as an integral part of the Russian federation and not to interfere in their internal affairs. However, covertly, it does not discourage any inimical activities being carried out on its soil against Russia. In fact, the Pakistani state is a willing facilitator for extending moral and material support to the Chechen insurgency. This can be easily judged from the activities of politico-religious parties and militant groups which are openly supporting the Chechen cause.
>The Taliban leader Mulla Mohammed Omar had decided to support the separatist government headed by President Aslan Maskhadov after having met a delegation from Chechnya in the second week of January this year. Russia has asserted that recognition of Chechnya by the Taliban regime was legally void as the regime itself is not recognised by the UN and it is the government of Burhauddin Rabbani, recognised by the UN, which is the legitimate regime of Afghanistan. The UN Security Council resolution on introducing international anti-terrorist sanctions against the Taliban movement from November 14, 1999, also contains provisions for applying additional and more severe measures, if required. Thus Taliban’s open support for terrorists operating from areas under Taliban control gives adequate reasons for toughening of UN sanctions against the Taliban movement.The end of that treaty was 100% justified, and Russia had all the right to end all the external pretensions caused by the wahabbism, helped and financed by the CIA to have their influence inside the middle east.
>Indeed, the Chechen resistance struggle was increasingly being embraced by Islamist militants elsewhere. Between 1997 and 1999, several hundred Arab volunteers, including many veterans of the 1979-88 anti-Soviet war in Afghanistan or the abortive fights against the Serbs in Bosnia and Kosovo, arrived in Chechnya to join a new anti-Russian jihad. One of these was the Saudi or Jordanian citizen Samir ibn al-Suwaylim, who arrived from Afghanistan at the head of an al-Qai'da contingent known as the al-Ansar Mujahidin (named after the original Medinan ansar—or "supporters" —of Muhammad, who came to his aid after his forced "emigration" [hijra] from Mecca), adopted the nom de guerre Khattab (which was almost certainly inspired by the name of the second "rightly-guided" khalif, 'Umar ibn al-Khattab), and quickly became Basayev's top operations commander. Moreover, al-Qai'da increasingly championed the Chechen cause in its public pronouncements and covertly provided funding for it. Tangible logistical and operational collaboration also increased. Several Chechen fighters were recruited into bin Laden's bodyguard corps and his elite 055 Brigade, foreign al-Qai'da members increasingly joined elements of the Chechen resistance, and Khattab even established training camps inside Chechnya, which allegedly provided training to between 1600 and 2500 fighters. The broader geopolitical reasons for bin Laden's interest in the Chechen conflict were outlined by one of his top lieutenants, the former Egyptian terrorist leader 'Ayman al-Zawahiri (who in 1996 was arrested and temporarily imprisoned while trying to enter Chechnya, but was then inadvertently released by Russian authorities who never learned his real identity)https://ciaotest.cc.columbia.edu/olj/sa/sa_jun00anv01.htmlhttps://www.nti.org/analysis/articles/chechen-resistance-radiological-terror/ No.577422
Speaking of Russian "imperialism". Most of the articles come from Western News outlets, trying to make Russian companies building electricity infrastructure in India and Africa sound sinister. The Alrosa mine in Angola is a joint venture.
https://africa.baobab.news/2019/11/18/10-russian-companies-doing-business-in-africa/#Now, who the
fuck are Baobab Media Group, and does this look like Africans raising alarm bells about Russian exploitation in the region?
http://baobabpr.com/our-team/ No.577424
>>577404>NATO>crumbling allianceLook, I want NATO to fall as hard as anyone else here, but the fact that they have gained new members should be enough to tell you this isn’t the case.
No.577426
>>577424that's exactly the point of his post
No.577428
>>577424>before FebruaryLearn to read.
No.577430
>>577415>A nation is either imperialist or it isn't. That post outlined why Russia wasn't imperialist due to the character of its economy, which is what the Marxist definition of imperialism is based onIf you arguing that the country is an imperialist puppet, what that country does during that that time is an extension of what controls it, which would make its invasion an imperialist venture.
>>577419>They weren't fighting terrorists. The US was imperialist in the middle east because they were destroying oil pumps and refineries along with water and electricity plants to remove competitors in the global oil market and ensure enough setbacks so that they wouldn't be able to redevelop for decades and in order to prop up the monopoly cartel of Exxon-Shell-BP so they could use their leverage in market share to dictate trade across the whole world.Missing the point, the argument was that the US used terrorists as an excuse to invade.
>>577421Dude, are you getting your dates mixed up in regards to what we are talking about? Your articles aren't a rebuttle to what I'm saying. The first Chechnyan war begins in 1994 and ends 1996. During that time, multiple outside Islamists enter the country. After the end of the war until 1999, the country is embroiled in an internal conflict between the government and said Islamist groups. Then Russia invaded in 1999 until 2009. The secession had already occured in the first war, and the second war was an invasion justified by a completely different pretext.
No.577432
>>577417>>577417>That gives these idiots way too much credit. No wonder they always rely on pure theory and quote Marxists like fucking scripture - their grasp on geopolitics is non-existentI hate those cretins, acting all smug when they have been repeating their ruling class ideas, too, then mixing them with whatever small notion of Marxism.
I am also tired of doing every time this job:
>>577421>>577430>duuudefuck off retard, I am not your dude, nor your comrade. to the gulag with you.
the treaty was signed in 1997, you are the one screeching about that piece of toilet paper, and I am showing how by 1997 and 1999 there was already an influx of fucking shitheads wanting to interfere with the inner dispute making the state a wahhabite garbage land.
if you love reactionaries too much, go enrol yourself in ISIS or Al-Qaeda, you fucking imbecile.
No.577434
>>577432>fuck off retard, I am not your dude, nor your comrade. to the gulag with you.Don't give a shit.
>the treaty was signed in 1997, you are the one screeching about that piece of toilet paper, and I am showing how by 1997 and 1999 there was already an influx of fucking shitheads wanting to interfere with the inner dispute making the state a wahhabite garbage land.The answer to that isn't to break the peace treaty and invade it, it's to accept Maskhadov's fucking offer and work with the government to establish mutual peace, not use it as a reason to seize the country and get even more people killed and soldiers/civilians traumatized.
>if you love reactionaries too much, go enrol yourself in ISIS or Al-Qaeda, you fucking imbecile.Me being against the invasion of Chechnya is not me being for reactionaries you delusional faggot. That's not argument, that's just an attempt to dismiss the argument by painting me as some kind of Islamist sympathiser for not being pro-invasion.
No.577437
>>577436>CHECHEN PRESIDENT PROPOSES NEW PEACE PLAN>Aslan Maskhadov has called for a halt to Russian air raids and the withdrawal of federal forces from the regions they have occupied over the past two-and-a-half weeks, in return for which he undertook to neutralize the Chechen radicals, Reuters reported on 10 October. But the following day, Defense Minister Igor Sergeev and Interior Minister Vladimir Rushailo both denied any knowledge of Maskhadov's initiative. LFhttps://reliefweb.int/report/russian-federation/rferl-news-11-october-1999-russian-federationchechnya>Russia began military airstrikes and a ground campaign in Chechnya in late September 1999, about 3 years after fighting in 1994-1996 had ended with peace accords. The renewed campaign began after Chechen guerrillas had attacked the neighboring Dagestan region of Russia and had been accused of bombing several apartment buildings in Moscow and elsewhere, killing hundreds. Chechnya's President Aslan Maskhadov denied that his government was involved in this violence, but he appeared to have scant authority over many guerrillas. Russian fighting in Chechnya has resulted in thousands of casualties on both sides, including Chechen civilians, and the vast majority of Chechnya's half-million population has been displaced from their homes. The U.S. Administration has been increasingly concerned about the escalating reports of human rights abuses by Russian forces in Chechnya but, as Deputy Secretary of State Strobe Talbott stated in a major speech in October 1999, wants to continue a policy of engagement with Russia. He supported Russia's efforts to combat terrorism and separatism but added that these efforts should not set back democratization or result in human rights abuses. https://www.everycrsreport.com/reports/RL30389.htmlThere are other articles like this, though it will take me some digging thought to grab one directly from the year.
No.577440
>>577437>Aslan Maskhadov has called for (…) the withdrawal of federal forces from the regions they have occupied (…) in return for which he undertook to neutralize the Chechen radicalsThat doesn't sound like an offer to work together lol. It sounds like an offer to gtfo unilaterally and trust Maskhadov to sort everything out by himself - something he demonstrably failed to do over the years.
It also came months after Russia actually proposed a joint operation, which was also demonstrably ignored.
What's the second link supposed to prove? You've bolded a quote from Talbott, not a Chechen official.
No.577442
>>577440>That doesn't sound like an offer to work together lol. It sounds like an offer to gtfo unilaterally and trust Maskhadov to sort everything out by himself - something he demonstrably failed to do over the years.Doesn't sound like that, as he contacted Russian officials in the same year to construct a plan to remove the guerilla presence in Russia and avoid a war.
>Chechen President Aslan Mazkhadov has written to Krasnoyarsk Krai Governor Aleksandr Lebed proposing that they meet in the Daghestani town of Khasavyurt to try to avert "another large- scale war" between Russia and Chechnya, Interfax reported on 11 September. Lebed, then Russian Security Council secretary, and Maskhadov, then commander of the Chechen forces, signed an agreement in Khasavyurt three years ago ending the war in Chechnya. Maskhadov suggested that tensions between Moscow and Grozny stem from Russia's failure to fulfill the provisions of the Khasavyurt agreement. He added that Chechnya could become Moscow's most important partner in the North Caucasus. Maskhadov also denied any Chechen government involvement in the ongoing fighting in Daghestan, which he blamed on armed groups subordinate to Russian State Duma deputy Nadir Khachilaev. LFhttps://reliefweb.int/report/russian-federation/maskhadov-seeks-lebeds-support-end-daghestan-warWow, what an antagonistic government.
>It also came months after Russia actually proposed a joint operation, which was also demonstrably ignoredThis doesn't make sense, as Maskhadov was desperate at this point and was willing to take what help he could get. I doubt this actually happened.
No.577444
>>577440>What's the second link supposed to prove? You've bolded a quote from Talbott, not a Chechen official.That was to make the point that the US actually supported Russia's aspirations on this.
No.577445
>Anons in this thread stating that Imperialism only exists in the context of countries that have entered into the imperialist stage of capitalism
Just realized this as well, you guys are fucking retarded. Have any of you actually read Lenin? He specifically says that imperialism predates capitalism, it's just that imperialism becomes dominant in late capitalism. It's in capitalism that the epoch of imperialism is possible, and where imperialism becomes integral to the system itself. Imperialism is a "stage" in capitalism, but imperialism itself doesn't necessitate the stage to be engaged in.
No.577447
>>577445Yes under globalization I am very concerned about precapitalist modes of production and their imperialist structures
No.577449
>>577447>Yes under globalization I am very concerned about precapitalist modes of production and their imperialist structuresNot the point, the point is that literally any capitalist (or pre-capitalist) country can engage in imperialism, despite not being at the imperialist stage. The act of imperialism, and the imperialist stage, are related. But the act of imperialism does not necessitate the stage, while the stage necessitates imperialism.
No.577451
>>576634Russia hollowing itself out and losing to NATO without NATO troops even being present is praxis
No.577452
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/12/world/europe/russia-war-belgorod.htmlRather strange article which is almost sympathetic to Russians and even mentions Russian sympathizing refugees from Ukraine (a thing that we all know doesn't exist and all Ukrainian citizens in Russia were kidnapped for genocide). Of course Ukrainians are going apeshit over it. Someone is getting fired and going on Mirotvorets for this I think.
No.577454
>>577451russia's economy and military are growing, and it's not losing.
the only thing that got hollowed out was some oligarchs and liberashka dead weight
No.577455
>>577454Wait what, are you accusing Russian KIA of being liberals and grannies?
No.577457
>>577455Oh whoops read babushkas in there too. But the oligarchs lost a yacht or two, not much BTFOing going on there versus some working class dude from Volgograd who got obliterated by a Ukrop drone strike.
No.577463
>>577454Maybe I'm simply not as committed to the cause of leftism, but I don't think it's good to characterize the men dying by the thousands in the name of the MIC as "dead weight." It makes you sound like a bloodthirsty psycho if I'm gonna be real.
No.577467
>>577463I'm talking about all the libs that left russia when the mobilizations happened. taking some military casualties in a war does not mean the country is being hollowed out ffs.
No.577469
>>577421>"we're going to break peace at the first opportunity and take back all the land"Why are Westoid-backed forces like this. Ukraine signed Minsk treaties just to win time, negotiated only to win time, Chechens did the same. It's almost like nothing short of total surrender and the change of regime will allow the treaty to last
No.577471
>>577449 completely useless for analysis or understanding of our current situation like calling mercantalist colonialism fascist
>the pointis about how things actually happen in reality not a battle between who has the strongest dictionary
No.577473
>>577449The question is whether old modes of production had forms of imperialism not whether backward countries in a newer one one can be imperialist as an act. Imperialism is not an act but a form of oppression. It's now pretty questionable that anyone is upholding the forms of oppression from the world before capitalism. Such things have all been smashed already, it's how we got imperialism and whatever twilight zone late stage of it we have now.
I think unipolarity makes sense given how capitalism, being the first truly global mode of production, has created a global form of imperialism that has never existed before. We've been unipolar for a long time for large parts of the world, it's just undeniable now that the world wars and the cold war set the stage for globalization by signaling an absence of inter-imperialist antagonism yet intensification of imperialist exploitation. The people who seem to have a problem with recognizing this are generally Western ultras and libs for reasons that everyone has an opinion on.
No.577475
>>577434>The answer to that isn't to break the peace treaty and invade it, it's to accept Maskhadov'sit was him who went into the retarded side asking to destabilize other regions, and use Wahhabism to support his own goals. fuck
your whole stupid idea that Russia is imperialist begins in this sole group of words:
>not use it as a reasonlmao, you are more than happy that Russia disintegrates herself, for the sakes of your western smugnorance. I hope your country dies disintegrates by all kind of external forces that predate your country, especially the most reactionary ones, to see what you are going to say, you little bitch.
>Me being against the invasion of Chechnyayet you seem very eager to call it a Russian invasion
so you
> is not me being for reactionariesRussia acted accordingly to a threat to the integrity of the nation, and the results are much better than the reactionary forces that predated their country, it was justified, and by acting stupidly, you are siding with al-qaeda, wahabism, and you deserve the rope.
go neck yourself, glowtard.
No.577477
>>577467>m talking about all the libs that left russia when the mobilizations happened. Ah yes because when your government tells you to fight and die in the name of the MIC, you're a lib if you want to flee. As we all know, true socialism isn't possible without a strong group of billionaires in government ruling over uneducated soldiers making $75 a month.
No.577481
>>577477yes they're heckin awesome and brave. smart move. they should definitely stay out and never go back.
No.577483
>>577278Damn straight it's the global southoids who are wrong.
No.577485
>>577471No, no, now wait a minute. Maybe Russia is a feudal monarchy, and looking to expand its lands in search of
more peasants.
No.577487
>>577452I used to think that a bunch of such MSM articles would herald America's throwing Ukraine under the bus, but now I've become more paranoid and think that such articles (especially that recent Nazi-symbol one in the NYT) are an op to make the Kremlin think America is about to throw Ukraine under the bus, thereby softening the Kremlin even more.
No.577491
>>577487russia not only reading american media but believing it? surely their Intel gathering machine is better than that lol
No.577493
>>577403>Bitch, we are talking about Chechnya, not the US and Ukraine.Yeah I know. But if you read the post in my image, the same logic applies to Chechnya as to Ukraine. You were comparing the Chechen wars to the US in Afghanistan. But Russia in Chechnya makes a lot more sense than America in Afghanistan for the same reason Russia in Ukraine makes more sense than America in Iraq. Americans constantly try to compare their imperialist wars across the other side of the planet with Russia dealing with issues right at their border, or sometimes even inside their country. It's not comparable. Russia is a giant nation with 16 countries bordering it and the US constantly trying to destabilize its neighbors. Russia dealing with proxy wars and intervening with civil wars at its border is a lot different than America invading countries halfway across the world.
No.577497
>>577242I think I've figured it out. Putin is the Bonaparte of our era. He transcends the revolutionary/reactionary false dichotomy, contains elements of both, but mostly pisses off the old empires surrounding him. If you've ever read War and Peace, the opening pages are Queen of the Netherlands Anna Pavlovna Scherer, crying that Bonaparte is "the antichrist," and a "Coriscan Beast" guilty of "regicide." The same pearl-clutching confusion and outrage that twisted all the feudal aristocrats into knots during the Napoleonic era now has taken hold of the imperial core bourgeoisie. Bonaparte was not a revolutionary like Robespierre, or a reactionary like King Louis. Rather he was a leader who transcended that and struck fear into the hearts of the ruling class. That is what Putin is today. The revolutionary period ended in France, and Bonaparte took over. The revolutionary period ended in Russia, and Putin took over.
No.577501
>>577497If bonapartists suppress domestic divisions of progress and reaction then sort of externalize their battle, then freezing decommunization seems to be the source of bonapartism in Russia.
No.577503
>>577497Calm down. It's actually much worse than that. France used to be the powerhouse and hegemon of continental Europe, so when Napoleon went on to kick ass, he had plenty to work with. Russia is a remnant of USSR, and all it wants is to not get Balkanized. But the established order is so fragile, that merely saying "no" is treated as a grievous sin.
No.577507
>>577449>can engage in imperialism, despite not being at the imperialist stagewhat lack of theory does to a mf.
No.577509
>>577493>Americans constantly try to compare their imperialist wars across the other side of the planet with Russia dealing with issues right at their border, or sometimes even inside their country. It's not comparable. Russia is a giant nation with 16 countries bordering it and the US constantly trying to destabilize its neighbors. Russia dealing with proxy wars and intervening with civil wars at its border is a lot different than America invading countries halfway across the world.Should America be permitted to intervene in Mexico when cartels spill over, or in any island nation bordering its waters? And the issue isn't the extent, the issue brought up is the rationalization of invasion, particularly one in which invasion was unnecessary to see the alleged goal achieved.
No.577511
>>577497>>577497> Putin is the Bonaparte of our era.>If you've ever read
>The Beginning of Bonapartism - V. I. Lenin
>We see the chief historical symptom of Bonapartism: the manoeuvring of state power, which leans on the military clique (on the worst elements of the army) for support, between two hostile classes and forces which more or less balance each other out.
>The class struggle between the bourgeoisie and the proletariat has reached the limit and on April 20 and 21, as well as on July 3–5, the country was within a hair’s breadth of civil war. This socio-economic condition certainly forms the classical basis for Bonapartism.
>The landowners and peasants, too, live as on the eve of civil war: the peasants demand land and freedom, they can be kept in check, if at all, only by a Bonapartist government capable of making the most unscrupulous promises to all classes without keeping any of them.
>Add to this the situation created by a foolhardy offensive and military reverses, in which fancy phrases about saving the country are particularly fashionable (concealing the desire to save the imperialist programme of the bourgeoisie), and you have a perfect picture of the socio-political setting for Bonapartism.
>Bonapartism in Russia is no accident but a natural product of the evolution of the class struggle in a petty-bourgeois country with a considerably developed capitalism and a revolutionary proletariat. Historical stages like April 20 and 21, May 6, June 9 and 10, June 18 and 19, and July 3-5 are landmarks which show clearly how preparations for Bonapartism proceeded. It would be a very big mistake to think that a democratic situation rules out Bonapartism. On the contrary, it is exactly in a situation like this (the history of France has confirmed it twice) that Bonapartism emerges, given a certain relationship between classes and their struggle.https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/jul/29.htm
>They Do Not See the Wood for the Trees - V. I. Lenin
>Anyone who has learned anything from history or from Marxism will have to admit that a political analysis must focus on the class issue: what class represents the revolution and what class the counter-revolution?
>French history shows us that the Bonapartist counterrevolution developed at the end of the eighteenth century (and then, for a second time, from 1848 to 1852) on the basis of the counter-revolutionary bourgeoisie, and in turn paved the way for the restoration of a legitimate monarchy. Bonapartism is a form of government which grows out of the counter-revolutionary nature of the bourgeoisie, in the conditions of democratic changes and a democratic revolution.
>You have to purposely shut your eyes not to see how, before your very eyes, Bonapartism is growing in Russia under very similar conditions. https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/sep/01.htm
>The Assessment of the Present Situation - V. I. Lenin
>The change in the agrarian policy of the autocracy is of exceptionally great importance for a “peasant” country like Russia. This change is not an accident, it is not the fluctuations in ministerial lines of action, not an invention of the bureaucracy. No, it is a profound “shift” towards agrarian Bonapartism, towards a liberal (economically understood, i.e., bourgeois) policy in the sphere of peasant land relations. Bonapartism is the manoeuvring on the part of a monarchy which has lost its old patriarchal or feudal, simple and solid, foundation—a monarchy which is obliged to walk the tightrope in order not to fall, make advances in order to govern, bribe in order to gain affections, fraternise with the dregs of society, with plain thieves and swindlers, in order not to rely only on bayonets. Bonapartism is the objectively necessary evolution of the monarchy in any bourgeois country, traced by Marx and Engels through a number of facts in the modern history of Europe. And the agrarian Bonapartism of Stolypin, on this point quite consciously and steadfastly supported both by the Black-Hundred landlords and the Octobrist bourgeoisie, could not even have seen the light, much less have lasted two years now, if the village commune itself in Russia were not developing in a capitalist direction, if within the commune elements were not steadily shaping which the autocracy could begin its flirtation with, to which it could say: “Enrich yourselves!”, “Plunder the commune but support me!”https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1908/nov/01.htm
>The Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte Chapter VII (Summary) - Karl Marx
>Driven by the contradictory demands of his situation, and being at the same time, like a juggler, under the necessity of keeping the public gaze on himself, as Napoleon’s successor, by springing constant surprises – that is to say, under the necessity of arranging a coup d’état in miniature every day – Bonaparte throws the whole bourgeois economy into confusion, violates everything that seemed inviolable to the Revolution of 1848, makes some tolerant of revolution and makes others lust for it, and produces anarchy in the name of order, while at the same time stripping the entire state machinery of its halo, profaning it and making it at once loathsome and ridiculous.https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1852/18th-brumaire/ch07.htm No.577514
>>577471>>577473>>577505Again, the point is that states which are not the dominant players in the imperialist stage of capital can still engage in imperialism, even as a form of oppression. It isn't limited to said imperialist states, it's just imperialist states engage in it in its most advanced form. Other capitalist states wholly engage in it too, despite not being of the same level, as their form of imperialism has not realized it's epoch like that of dominant capitalist states.
No.577519
>>577514>capital can still engage in imperialismIt's called
imperialism, late stage capitalism for a reason. Russia is not a late stage capitalist nation:
The basic commodity extraction companies, banking, and many other companies are state-run, not capital-owned.
you don't engage in imperialism if your state structure is not highly monopolized, trying to secure resources. more so, who are some of Russia's closest allies, but nations like Venezuela and Iran that also produce the resources they would like to monopolize.
again
>what lack of theory does to a MF.>>577517obv. he's the same retard.
No.577521
>>577475>it was him who went into the retarded side asking to destabilize other regions, and use Wahhabism to support his own goals. fuck your whole stupid idea that Russia is imperialist begins in this sole group of words:What the fuck are you talking about? He literally made an offer to Russia to avoid conflict.
>lmao, you are more than happy that Russia disintegrates herself, for the sakes of your western smugnorance.Where did I say this? Nobody had to die to the extent that did in that war, there was no reason for the invasion to occur. At no point did I champion the disintegration of Russia, if anything I condemned the actions of a government that cares nothing for it.
>I hope your country dies disintegrates by all kind of external forces that predate your country,Cool. You're assuming I have any nationalist loyalties at all.
>especially the most reactionary ones, to see what you are going to say, you little bitch.Who's supporting reactionaries here? Why are you being such a fragile mewling faggot?
>yet you seem very eager to call it a Russian invasionBut it fucking was. They did walk in with throwing roses and daisies, it was an invasion.
>Russia acted accordingly to a threat to the integrity of the nation, and the results are much better than the reactionary forces that predated their country, it was justified, and by acting stupidly, you are siding with al-qaeda, wahabism, and you deserve the rope.go neck yourself, glowtard.
Cope, the fact that you need to try and rope me in with jihadists because I oppose an invasion that didn't need to occur and resulted in the deaths of thousand of civilians is laughable. And where the fuck do you think you are, as if any threat means anything lol.
No.577526
>>577513Again, talking about Chechnya, not Ukraine. The example was a hypothetical, I already agreed earlier that the US had and has involvement with the cartels. This isn't a argument against the main point made.
>>577517Again, already agreed that this was the case, can you fags keep up with the conversation? I never disputed this, the point was that being on the border makes no difference in regards to intervention over a spill over of violence. The US fighting it's own CIA backed cartels because of its own policy coming back to bite it, or it fighting violence spillover that didn't involve it, doesn't refute the main point made about the rationalization of invasion.
No.577528
>>577514Theres no point in calling them imperialist except to equate them with the US. Just call them capitalist. Trying to say they are imperialist is like trying to say fast food chains are imperialist when they move in to a new town and the mom and pop restaurants go out of business. Its not nice and it sucks big time but its not imperialism. Its just capitalism. Russia is capitalist, irredentist, revanchist, maybe expansionist but its not imperialist. The only contradiction is that because we are an international board Russian citizens also post here and they can be for ending the war from their side. A principled anti-war stance would demand putting a stop to escalation from your own government not condemning other countries or trying to redefine words to make them uniquely evil.
No.577535
>>577521>And where the fuck do you think you are, as if any threat means anything lol.I think i've met this poster before. If he is who i think he is- He got absolutely booty blasted when I pointed out the same thing and then tried to defend the ethnic deportation of Kurds during the Arab belt.
The only thing this guy can do is just respond with death threats when you call him out on his bullshit.
Quite pathetic, really.
No.577538
>talking about Chechnya
>implying the u.s. wasn't funding al-qaeda to destabilize Russia
No.577541
>>577526>I never disputed this, the point was that being on the border makes no difference in regards to intervention over a spill over of violence. The US fighting it's own CIA backed cartels because of its own policy coming back to bite it, or it fighting violence spillover that didn't involve it, doesn't refute the main point made about the rationalization of invasion.And the point I'm making isn't one about location. If the US funds terrorists and a third party stops terrorists thats good. If the US funds terrorists and the US intervenes and says they are stopping terrorists they are lying, they are not stopping terrorists, its for some unknown reason related to their imperialist designs, probably to create more terrorrists. If its not I don't care because they don't get the benefit of the doubt when all of their history shows the opposite. The relative closeness to the hypothetical third party is just more justification for something already good.
No.577545
>>577514we should make it clear that inter imperialist antagonism doesn't refer to this. It's not a non dominant power under a new mode of production using old forms of imperialism. It's a conclusion of capitalist development and you can credibly argue BRICS hasn't reached it.
Imperialism is about whether you uphold the oppression needed to spread or maintain the the world's dominant mode of production. The imperialists all do even when they feud. The only question here is whether Russia, China, or Iran could become imperialist given sufficient development of that mode of production. But at the moment they do not uphold its dictatorships. The rot of these dictatorships is what is causing the crisis, not a battle between premodern and modern imperialism
No.577548
>>577519>It's called imperialism, late stage capitalism for a reason. Russia is not a late stage capitalist nation: The basic commodity extraction companies, banking, and many other companies are state-run, not capital-owned.Nearly half of each of those sectors are private, bit we are diverting off of the main argument.
>you don't engage in imperialism if your state structure is not highly monopolized, trying to secure resources.Again, what do you not get that imperialism can still be engaged in by a state that has not become imperialist wholesale? Imperialism is always the destination of a capitalist state, but you don't have to be at an advanced stage of capital to engage in it. It's just that the highest stage will always be imperialism at its epoch.
>more so, who are some of Russia's closest allies, but nations like Venezuela and Iran that also produce the resources they would like to monopolizeThis is irrelevant to the point.
>what lack of theory does to a MF.I actually took the time to go back and ensure I didn't miss something from Lenin, all I've done is point out that imperialism isn't so thing that can only be engaged by advanced capitalist states. Advanced capitalist states primarily engage in it out of dependency, making the entirety of the system itself an imperialist one structurally, but it is not exclusive to them.
No.577551
>>577548>making the entirety of the system itself an imperialist one structurallythat is the defining characteristic of Imperial
ism™
you now have permission to call things imperialian or imperialistical but your imperialism labeling card is revoked
No.577557
>>577548>Nearly half of each of those sectors are privateand none of them are monopolies inside Russia - that was the idea of the sanctions, to impose a shake inside Russia for the companies from outside working inside Russia to leave and destabilize Russia - the difference is that europe is too dependent on Russia's energy, to do what the u.s. did to Iran or Venezuela, nor as small economically to suffer as Cuba.
you have 0 knowledge of economics.
>This is irrelevant to the point.100% relevant. monopoly states on late stage capitalism have no friends, more in particular sectors they want to impose a monopoly. that's why europe is subdued to the u.s. because the u.s. doesn't want to lose the
exorbitant privilege the dollar has to the euro.
No.577560
>>577554>that developing capitalist nationslmao, how can a developing nation have a say on a business opened abroad over the other nation where it operates the business? worst, how can they impose violence, when the developing nation can't impose coercive measures to any degree it becomes a threat to have that business closed for the counterpart if the business violated the labor laws?
you are reading Lenin, you are not understanding Lenin.
No.577563
>>577528>Theres no point in calling them imperialist except to equate them with the US. Just call them capitalist.Only if you think this way, which anons fucking shouldn't. Why the hell would calling a state imperialist then make you say "well, that means it's to the same level as the US". At no point did I say that. You can have a seperate imperialist state, while acknowledging that the imperialism it's conducted is largely that of a less advanced form. Also, the whole point was that non-imperialist states (as in lacking an advanced form of capitalism) can still engage in imperialism, so I already gave the benefit of the doubt that Russia wasn't an imperialist state, just that it engaged in imperialism.
>Trying to say they are imperialist is like trying to say fast food chains are imperialist when they move in to a new town and the mom and pop restaurants go out of business. Its not nice and it sucks big time but its not imperialism. Its just capitalism. Russia is capitalist, irredentist, revanchist, maybe expansionist but its not imperialist. Didn't we just make the point about the difference of an imperialist state vs imperialism as a form of oppression?
>The only contradiction is that because we are an international board Russian citizens also post here and they can be for ending the war from their side. A principled anti-war stance would demand putting a stop to escalation from your own government not condemning other countries or trying to redefine words to make them uniquely evil.I never made Russia uniquely evil, that much should be evident. And I am against escalation and calls for peace in general. We weren't even largely talking about Ukraine, the discussion was about Chechnya, which blindsided me in this thread given how radically it differs from most Marxist positions on it, and it feels like most defend it now retroactively because of Ukraine.
No.577567
>>577554Russia doesn't engage in any pre-capitalist imperialism, either.
No.577570
>>577563>most defend it now retroactively because of UkraineWho the fuck defended Ichkeria here?
No.577573
>>577560>lmao, how can a developing nation have a say on a business opened abroad over the other nation where it operates the business? worst, how can they impose violence, when the developing nation can't impose coercive measures to any degree it becomes a threat to have that business closed for the counterpart if the business violated the labor laws?With tanks? The whole crux of your argument is that in order for any nation to engage in the game of imperialism, they must have a monopoly over some sort of resource, but Britain didn't have any monopoly when they started engaging in imperialism. They used imperialism to gain their monopolies.
>>577567>>577570Damn son, you've been watching from the sidelines throwing in one liners but have nothing of substance to say. Classic /chug/ behavior.
No.577576
>>577541>And the point I'm making isn't one about location. If the US funds terrorists and a third party stops terrorists thats good. If the US funds terrorists and the US intervenes and says they are stopping terrorists they are lying, they are not stopping terrorists, its for some unknown reason related to their imperialist designs, probably to create more terrorrists. If its not I don't care because they don't get the benefit of the doubt when all of their history shows the opposite. The relative closeness to the hypothetical third party is just more justification for something already goodThe point being made here is that the reason for invasion wasn't about terrorists, the terrorists were just a casus belli. That was the point being made, which is that the distance doesn't refute the main issue of the rationalization. You people are laser focusing on US involvement with cartels, which I am already aware of, and not the point that violent spillover isn't some reason to seize a country you have a treaty with.
No.577579
>>577503>Calm down. It's actually much worse than that. kek
No.577582
>>577554>Imperialism predates capitalism, so it stands to reason that developing capitalist nations and even non-capitalist nations can practice imperialism.No. You cannot go backwards in history. You cannot restore an empire after its mode of production has been abolished. What Lenin is saying is that there were different oppressor states of a different epochal or globally dominant mode of production. Yesterday's oppressors could become oppressed, like China and Turkey immediately after the collapse of their precapitalist empires.
No.577586
>🇷🇺🇺🇦 It is reported about the liquidation of one of the organizers of the arson of the House of Trade Unions in Odessa on May 2, 2014.
>Sniper Roman Chernomaz was eliminated near Bakhmut, and his compatriots write about death.
some justice being served
No.577588
>>577570>Who the fuck defended Ichkeria here?I'm talking about defending the war, why are you commenting on something you just jumped into without reading? Largely no Marxist defended the war before this, ML or not.
No.577591
Are we still arguing with Iranian gusano?
Either way here’s your daily reminder that America needs to die first
No.577597
>>577573>With tanks?no, modern imperiaism uses financial imperialism. any nation holding international reserves on another currency to estabilize their economy, using dollars, for example, or euros, is susceptible of imperialism.
>tanksTanks do have not that strength to coerce. 100 years ago perhaps that's the point that ukraine strayed into nazism faster thanks to the u.s. hegemony, than any military threat of the u.s.
>but Britain didn't have any monopolythe fuck?
No.577600
>>577563>Didn't we just make the point about the difference of an imperialist state vs imperialism as a form of oppression? you did but i don't think there is an "imperialism as a form of oppression". you are talking about capitalist exploitation and calling it imperialism.
>the discussion was about Chechnya, which blindsided me in this thread given how radically it differs from most Marxist positions on itChechnya 1 or 2? Marxist positions then or now? Its possible Russia was colluding with the US to fuck up Chechnya but that doesn't mean it is still a comprador state. And now we know that the US pushed Chechnya to invade Russia, just like Ukraine was about to back at the beginning. To believe that you would basically have to prove some kind of illuminati shit like the USSR was faking communism and the Bilderburgs were controlling them and the US too.
>>577576>the terrorists were just a casus belliSo then why did Russia invade? Do you have any examples of resources or industry was taken over by Russia?
>not the point that violent spillover isn't some reason to seize a country you have a treaty withIt is a reason to invade it, and they didn't seize it. Its rational to be skeptical of the claims but if they are true I think its justified. You can't just let a failed state mired in civil war run into destitution sit on your border and fester while outside forces are pumping them full of weaponry.
>>577588> Largely no Marxist defended the war before this, ML or not.I think things might have changed after revelations about US involvement.
No.577604
>>577591Funny how they never even begin to consider how living and being raised in the West, surrounded by Westerners who never felt the effects of their nation's own imperialism, may somehow skew their worldview in such a way. God forbid a Westoid has to listen to the voices in the global south.
No.577607
>>577582NTA, but while you can't restore an empire once it's primary mode of production it depend on is superceded, what oppressor states come next has nothing to do with imperialism being engaged in by capitalist states which are not of a sufficiently advanced level. Imperialism as a stage is not the same as imperialism as a form of oppression, which is something we agree on. But imperialism merely achieves it's epoch in advanced capitalist countries which have reached such a stage, it's not that imperialism cannot be conducted by lesser capitalist states. It's that at the later end of capitalist development lies imperialism in its most advanced form.
No.577614
>>577535I didn't do a death threat to you in particular, little bitch, I said: If you (or any pseudoleftist) try to come to my country and do an ethnic minority 'le based communist' separatist group to split my country, I will go to the front to kill you.
seethe all you want, it will be 2030, 2040, 2050, and you will keep babbling about how based the ypg sells Syrian resources to Syria as a good argument.
No.577617
>>577551>that is the defining characteristic of Imperialism™ >you now have permission to call things imperialian or imperialistical but your imperialism labeling card is revokedImperialism isn't exclusive to capitalism, and not only advanced capitalist countries engage in it. It's just that advanced capitalist countries engage in imperialism by necessity of its structure, while non advanced ones can engage in imperialism, but not be imperialist as a state.
No.577620
>>577617Tell me you haven’t read Lenin without telling me you haven’t read Lenin
No.577627
New thread
>>1503308
No.577630
>>577548>what do you not get that imperialism can still be engaged in by a state that has not become imperialist wholesale?I'm having flashbacks. Caught in the time loop.
TWO MORE WEEKS
TWO MORE WEEKS
>>>/leftypol_archive/494523>>>/leftypol_archive/494534>>>/leftypol_archive/494607>>>/leftypol_archive/494626>>>/leftypol_archive/494649 No.577634
>>577614I BTFO of you on that argument too, and you deliberately refused evidence as you always do.
>If you (or any pseudoleftist) try to come to my country and do an ethnic minority 'le based communist' separatist group to split my country, I will go to the front to kill you.Like I said, pathetic death threats. You couldn't throw a punch let alone pull a trigger.
No.577637
>>577634You didn't do shit, you got dogpiled for being a retard.
No.577640
>>577600>you did but i don't think there is an "imperialism as a form of oppression". you are talking about capitalist exploitation and calling it imperialism.We just had a discussion about it as a form of oppression. Engaging in imperialism is not the same as there being an imperialist state, otherwise Lenin's point on imperialism reaching its epoch makes no sense.
>Chechnya 1 or 2? Marxist positions then or now? Its possible Russia was colluding with the US to fuck up Chechnya but that doesn't mean it is still a comprador state. And now we know that the US pushed Chechnya to invade Russia, just like Ukraine was about to back at the beginning. To believe that you would basically have to prove some kind of illuminati shit like the USSR was faking communism and the Bilderburgs were controlling them and the US tooTwo, and then. Also, the US literally thought it was a good thing regarding what Russia was doing in the region.
>So then why did Russia invade? Do you have any examples of resources or industry was taken over by Russia?Largely further oil and natural gas sites.
>It is a reason to invade it, and they didn't seize it. Its rational to be skeptical of the claims but if they are true I think its justified. You can't just let a failed state mired in civil war run into destitution sit on your border and fester while outside forces are pumping them full of weaponryThey did seize it, and the government requested a peace deal with Russia that would allow the insurgents to be crushed while maintaining the existing government. That was denied.
>I think things might have changed after revelations about US involvement.The US is always somehow involved, it was even involved supporting the Russians engaging in "anti-terrorism" operations in the region, because at the time the US government was gearing up with its rhetoric on global Islamic terror.
No.577643
>>577637Matter of fact I did, you just stuck your head in the sand and continued your Zircle jerk.
I refuted each point, you and your bud got booty blasted and refused to read evidence and proceeded to say the same buzzwords and scream "glow".
You guys can't argue to save your skin and I exposed you for the reactionaries in red-paint that you are. But then again, what should i expect when im arguing with people who argue in favour of ethnic persecution and defend Russia's reactionary policies.
No.577646
>>577620>Tell me you haven’t read Lenin without telling me you haven’t read LeninI've read Lenin, it doesn't make sense to say I haven't when we're literally debating the nuance of six paragraphs in two specific chapters, that is to say the question of imperialism as a form of oppression outside of a strictly advanced capitalist imperialist state.
No.577649
>>577643Oh, I just watched. I'm not giving extra-retarded ultras (You)s.
No.577652
Getting off now, I have to get to work later. See ya.
No.577654
>>577649>ultraagain, like I said to the last guy, meaningless buzzword
No.577657
>>577643>I refuted each pointso it's based to ransack Syria's resources, right?
No.577660
>>577640>We just had a discussion about it as a form of oppression.I don't have the slightest idea what you mean by "imperialism as a form of oppression"
>Engaging in imperialismis not a thing
>otherwise Lenin's point on imperialism makes no senseLenins point is that imperialism is a stage, not a policy. Its pretty explicit. His definition of imperialism is a dialectical materialist one, similar to the communist definition of fascism, or the marxist definition of communism. Fascism isn't when people do things you don't like and its not a checklist of 14 policies you choose to implement. Communism is not a state of affairs, its a process, it is the real movement to abolish the present state of things. Making up a list of policy positions that are imperialist and calling anyone imperialist who does some of these policies and saying they are "engaging in imperialism" is an idealist construction of what imperialism is, not a materialist analysis of how and why it operates in reality.
No.577663
>>577654Repeating this does not make it true. "Ultra-leftists" are the ones that treat Marxist writings like religious scripture and reality not conforming to theory as heresy. That's exactly what you do.
No.577667
>>577663> "Ultra-leftists" are the ones that treat Marxist writings like religious scripture and reality not conforming to theory as heresy. That's exactly what you do.Except I don't. Just because I point out a glaring flaw in a Socialist project doesn't mean I outright renounce them. Like I said- there are things China does do that I don't agree with, that doesn't mean that they aren't worthy of support.
>>577657>noooo you can't establish a seperate government during a revolution and seize resources to maintain it because…. BECAUSE YOU JUST CAN'T OK cope.
No.577670
>>577667>cope.ok, so it's based, cool to know :^)
No.577673
>>577654Now what if I was writing in latin and used the world ultra. In such a sentence as Ultra Posse Nemo Obligatur.
No.577676
REMINDER it's ok if the CIA/Pentagon/U.S. interests ransack another state, because you can call it a revolution, and use the argument that this state selling resources to the original state is 100% communist/leftist
I welcome anyone to do it in my country with a 7.62×54 caliber bullet :^), comrade
No.577678
>>577610>>577604Literally all i did was point out that the focus for communists is the working class not supporting one side of capital, it is quite literally the most basic communist stance. Nothing about this is demsoc.
No.577681
>>577676Except that's not even happening you delusional schizo.
Rojava hasn't even sold said oil to the united states.
>but t-they ransackedThey took control of a region which the Assad government left for dead. You can scream CIA all you want- it's clear you're incapable of having a rational thought and/or argument.
No.577684
>>577660>Lenins point is that imperialism is a stage, not a policy. Its pretty explicit. His definition of imperialism is a dialectical materialist one, similar to the communist definition of fascism, or the marxist definition of communism. Lenin explicitly states that imperialism existed prior to the latest stage of capitalism. The imperialist stage is different then imperialism as a form of oppression as expressed in the past, but that in no way makes that imperialism any less a case of imperialism. The imperialist stage is the epoch of imperialism and has different principle features compared to the imperialism of the past, but that doesn't make imperialism lacking the domination of monopolist associations of big employers not imperialism, because then talking about those in chapter 6 makes no sense.
No.577687
>>576788>By Lenins definition imperialism is when capitalist nations forcefully export capitalNo it's not theorylet
Besides every nation exports capital retard loser
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