/meta/ - Ruthless criticism of all that exists (in leftypol.org)

No

its a forum, you do praxis irl

>>31972
Well, if that‘s meaningful to you that‘s great for you Anon

>>31970
>>31971
>praxis
In all seriousness, what „praxis“ do you do and what has that accomplished? Genuinely curious.

It's an imageboard. It's not a fucking org. Holy fuck.

>>31968
this is just a place to follow the news about Ukraine Palestine, and talk about gooning

>>31974
unions, unions, unions

>>31977
>unions
lol

>>31978
give me another form of organization that strengthens proletarian unity instead of class collaborationist or liberal individualist bullshit lol

I just don't like when people don't argue in good faith and spam biased unfounded bait opinions just to anoy others. Such a shame, i thought i would learn lots of new things today. Guess i was wrong

>>31980
>spam biased unfounded bait opinions just to anoy others
welcome to the internet, land of sociopath losers

>>31981
Today was a bad day, most days are good days

>>31968
at least over on pol they're radicalizing idiots onto their cause, this site has no mainstream appeal

>>31983
at least pol makes an effort to invade other sites and ruin every small imageboard in existence. but leftypol just likes to stay in its self-made containment board. never spread the message anywhere or counter pol invasions. leftychon tried hitting up wapchan but thats pretty much it and those people are poop soup.

>>31979
parties. the vanguard party, specifically
trade unions and economic benefits can be easily co-opted by the bourgeois state. socialism is more than a good salary and safe working conditions

>>31979
religion

>>31986
Particularly, Islam, because Islam is the most authentic Proletarian religion in the world. Glory to Muhammed (PBUH) and Allah (Subhanahu wa ta'ala)!!!

>>31984
Doing anything is lifestylism or larping or whatever other buzzword dimwits like to use to shout down activity. I don't think it was a coincidence that leftypol's most dynamic period was both when it had a number of really creative people here making stuff and a bunch of other people proleselytizing out on the internet.

>>31988
> lifestylism or larping or whatever other buzzword dimwits

All those are based

>>31968
I disagree

>>1820264
wdym by this

>>31988
why do leftists keep isolating themselves from society? its a pattern ive noticed. i dunno about the haz guy. but i know people got mad because he went to a trump rally and talked to the trumpers which is like a huge sin for some reason. like how dare you mix with non leftists. like the left has gone from workers movement to supa sekret club for avante garde college fags.

>>31989
this culture of praising unironic retardation is why imageboard sux nows

>>31992
Actually active people eventually leave or are driven out and eventually all that's left are the people that just want to shitpost because muh board culture.

>>31986
>>31987
>>1820264
Mental retardation. There's nothing about religion that restricts it to proletarians.

>>31985
lmao and where are these vanguard parties? please dont bring up electoralist bullshit right after denouncing trade unions
inb4 one of 500 sects claiming to be the true vanguard and the most they do is annoy the proletariat with cowshit newspapers

>trade unions can be easily co-opted by the bourgeois state
yeah man something that only helps the proletariat and not the petit-bourgeois/bourgeois is the same as interclassist garbage

>>31994
I was joking, Jesus. Does no one on this board understand irony?

If your movement doesn't revolve around critically supporting capitalist and reactionary shitholes (Hard Mode) then I'm all in.

>>31996
All capitalist countries are reactionary by definition.

>>31998
I know retard, I'm just emphasising the point.
Also
>liberal "democracy" > theocracy

>>31985
Lenin pwned this idiocy: https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1920/lwc/ch06.htm

>>31999
no need for scare quotes, democracy sucks too

>>32000
i didnt say unions are useless, retard

>>31995
i dont know where they are. maybe you should work towards its establishment? as long as they bring a revolutionary strategy towards the masses its all good. you cant even do that without certain prerequisites either so im being broad and talking about a highly advanced process of capitalist decomposition and widespread class consciousness

>>32003
thats fine. i dont disagree, i just think the communist movement is dead atm and trade unions are the best chance at uniting the proletariat rn. the vanguard is simply the most radical workers, those who largely come forward. vanguardism implies the workers never actually get to touch power but are substituted by the vanguard party, i think a vanguard party is useless and impotent without a unified working class first

>>32004
vanguardism supposes that the working class is unable to abolish its current material conditions by itself (which i think its an accurate supposition)
its just a matter of strategy. lenin, correctly i think, proposed that the working class' highest level of consciousness is reformist and cant spearhead the revolution without a consistent, accurate program, so you cant rely on its spontaneity. the role of the party is to correctly assess material conditions and political circumstances, so as to be prepared to fuel the revolutionary consciousness of the masses

regarding the unity of the working class, i agree, but some western countries show a fragmented working class. for example, high volumes of non-unionized populations put a limit to union agitation

>>31968
Providing books to /edu/ or creating memes that spread class consciousness is something useful we could all do.

Theory should be discussed and argued about but I see this place as a gateway drug to orgs and other platforms where theory is not just shitposted about. Most valuable thing leftypol users can do in my opinion is to create and spread communist propaganda in meme form.

>>32006
>>32007
all youre gonna attract is middle class pseuds

>>31968
It's a forum for following the war and shitposting.
Unironically WTF is wrong with you? real question.

>>32010
>>32010
> about in 2020 if not earlier and nothing has been done until now teehee
Newfag. The height of that was during the meme wars obviously.

>So we all agree this is going nowhere, right?
leftypol.org? Yes, duh.
Socialism on the ground? No, and more no than any time this millennium.
Go outside n sheit.

>>32001
t. police officer

Hot take: The vast majority of the "Left" - in the heart of hearts - doesn't really want things to change because that would mean they would actually have to be a real alternative to the present Neoliberal capitalist order instead of chasing internet clout.

>>32012
Do tell me about what‘s happening on the ground then.

>>32014
I think a lot do want a change, just no one has an actionable plan to obtain it.

>>32014
Its because as westerners, we are all complicit in imperialist policies that enrich us at the expense of the periphery. How can a retail worker get a salary 20 times that of an african farmer if Value is equal across the board?

>>32017
Yeah but the African owns the big and black means of reproduction and that equalizes the imbalance again

No, In a way we are like the last japanese holdouts, just autistically screeching in the middle of the jungle as the world has moved on, completely oblivious to the state of the current world.

You mean on this site? No.
Mainly because the mods allow bourgoies agents (people who do the ideological bidding the the chinese bourgoiesie) on here to poison the well.

>>32020
Lol

>>32017
>How can a retail worker get a salary 20 times that of an african farmer if Value is equal across the board?
Because the farmers and factory workers near the retail worker produce 20 times as much products per hour and labour is locally competitive.
The value produced *per hour* is NOT equal across the board. An african working his ass off in a sweatshop making 3 shovels a day is not producing the same *value* as a european operating a machine making 300 shovels a day. The value of each shovel is equal, because the value of a commodity is the average necessary labour time needed to make it. Just like how a shitty baker spending hours on a mudpie doesnt make the mudpie have high value, the same way people in dirt poor countries putting in insane hours to make comparatively little doesnt make them produce equal value to first world workers operating fancy machines.

First world workers in said factories are not primarily paid for by value stolen from the third world, no worker is paid more than they produce, otherwise they would not be hired. There is a gigantic gap in productivity that coincides nearly one to one with wages. The cost price of production in China of a single thing is equal to that in india, to indonesia, to every other third world workshop country, despite the differences in wages, because china has higher productivity.
And that makes total sense, because if the prices of chinese per item manufacturing go up, production shifts to india and the others, until that supply of labour dried up and unemployment in china drives down manufacturing costs there.
Production costs across first world countries are also equal to each other. Every commodity is produce competitively. Production is shifted to shittier less developed places if its cost per item price is lower, and shifted back if the more developed places start to have lower prices due to unemployment and lower wages.
The difference between the imperialist core countries and the periphery countries, a gap that is pretty much consistent, is the transportation cost and the tarrifs it takes to get products from china to europe rather than from stutgart to paris.

Value produced by workers per hour worked is not equal across the board, and that is the primary cause of giant wage differences. The problem is underdevelopment. And this underdevelopment is in part concious, because imperialism is primarily done on the behest of companies trying to eliminate competition, so they destroy their rivals, they fuck up the countries, and the first companies on the ground, the companies with the largest stakes in imperialist policies, are companies that want foreign *natural resources*. Exactly because labour is locally competitive, by destroying the schools, the universities, the factories, the economy of guatamala, of syria, of irak, of lybia, of bolivia, of africa, you drive down wages so the "unskilled" aka untrained labour of resource extraction is cheap there. Because wages arent set by individual productivity of individual workers, but by regional productivity. If an entire country is super productive, unions and workers can demand much more without making profit impossible. And then unskilled workers, cleaners, servers, retail workers, or even low training workers such as oil or mining, wont work for scraps. But if the entire country is dirt poor, if farmers farm using sickles and not tractors, if clothes are woven by hand, if computers are non existent, if workshops work using old fuck off shitty machinery that is held together by determination and prayers, then mining and oil workers cannot demand high wages, even if they as a group produce a fuckton of value per hour, because they can be replaced by the 100000 dirt poor sods living around them on a whim.

No progress has been made on the left generally. Why? Because leftists are incapable of doing it. Slowly its becoming an intellectually bankrupt movement with many internal problems. These problems are deep rooted and go back to the origins of the left. Its hard baked into the movement. The crap you see on leftypol only exposes the rot that exists at the heart of the left. The internet amplifies that shit. Helps shine a light on the trash.

>So we all agree this is going nowhere, right?
The left isn't going anywhere. Its either college bound intellectuals who write about resistance and anal sex or deranged Twitch streamers and MLs online. The left is now an aesthetic subculture not a real political movement. Have a conversation with the average leftist and you'll come away embarrassed and ashamed. The left is overtheoretical and obsessed with developing the correct theory. This obsession with correctness and belief in their own truthfulness means leftists can never agree on anything. They simply fight over small distinctions. Since lefties love intellectualism, they hate "uneducated people" which means they never interact with workers or ordinary people who they see as irredeemably stupid. This leaves the online schizo leftist who unironically think Stalin was da shit and has insane views on politics that feels good but doesn't make any real sense.

Leftypol exposes the truth of the modern left: its total inner retardation.

just waiting around till climate change, resource depletion, and biosphere collapse ramps up

>>32022
>>32017
As for this lie about how we should support imperialism because we benefit from it:
What benefit is it to have africans live poor?
What harm is it to me if they have the industry to produce vast wealth per hour as well? Does it make me poorer if they can farm their food supply with only 1% of the labour force they use now?
Economics is not a zero sum game. Marxist economics is about efficiently using human labour to maximum use value creation. Scarce sources are only temporarily scarce, we can invent technology to fix that scarcity, we have done so for centuries, that is the essence of what makes modern human civilization. We can fix the scarcity of batteries. We can fix the scarcity of energy. We just need to put people on it to fix it, and what better way than to alleviate the tiresome work of 99% of the population of the bottom 60% of the world so they can help in this research and work?
At the very worst, it would mean some people in the west would go back to sowing clothes instead of bangladeshis doing it. But if the worst thing that could happen to the west is "we need to manufacture our own clothes and cigars again" then that is no cost at all to pay for the lifting up of our fellow men so they can help us in the creation of art and new technology.
There is no scarcity in the world. There is only underdevelopment and capitalism.

>>32022
Materialist cope
Okay, i'll give you a better example, a guy who stands behind a counter for 20 hours a week in USA gets paid more than an african family in a year, because… his labour is more Valuable? No.
Its because the west's riches are built on a reservoir of "productive" labour while so many of us work bullshit jobs or even dont work at all and get free money.
Yes i agree that machines make things more productive, but in that case, we all majorly exploit machine workers.
>First world workers in said factories are not primarily paid for by value stolen from the third world, no worker is paid more than they produce, otherwise they would not be hired.
Corporations have money to franchise distribution centres largely automatically. The Value that is exchanged is the imported commodities, not the guy behind the counter or the security guard. This is also why small businesses dont hire people, since people are generally valueless. This is also why you dont pay your kid for them doing their chores.
>Value produced by workers per hour worked is not equal across the board, and that is the primary cause of giant wage differences.
Yes, and these didnt exist in marx's time. Thats why marx's analysis of labour-power isnt applicable to the west today. We arent selling the most to get the least. We all live good lives. The only real issue is rent, but imagine how rich we would be without that. Hardly an emisseration of the working class.
>The problem is underdevelopment
Yes. But a competitive world; an actual free market isnt really in anyone's interests, especially not the capitalists'. Thats why i think autarky should become more common and countries should specialise (like they have). Everyone becoming "industrialised" like china just leads to wasteful chaos.
>so the "unskilled" aka untrained labour of resource extraction is cheap there
Again, you got people here who literally do nothing except get free money to buy drugs with. Its not about production, its about distribution.
>If an entire country is super productive, unions and workers can demand much more without making profit impossible.
Without profits you lose your economy. The state is here to stay and it needs surplus value to feed itself.

>>32025
Im not saying its good to enslave the world, im just being realistic as to why we are so rich
I dont think riches are everything either. Most would actually prefer to be poorer and live in a better society.

this is a forum for shitposting and watching the old world shit itself while we go irl and build the new one, tf were you expecting

>>32024
don't worry anon, the enshittification of burgerstan will provide more than enough entertainment

>>32026
>Materialist cope
>Okay, i'll give you a better example, a guy who stands behind a counter for 20 hours a week in USA gets paid more than an african family in a year, because… his labour is more Valuable? No.
I just explained it all to you and even provided sources to support the objective analysis of reality.
>Its because the west's riches are built on a reservoir of "productive" labour while so many of us work bullshit jobs or even dont work at all and get free money.
I implore everyone like you who keeps misusing the term "productive labour" to read up what it means as written by marx himself. It just means whatever generates profit under capitalism.
The share of bullshit jobs that are completely unproductive is not significant.
>Yes i agree that machines make things more productive, but in that case, we all majorly exploit machine workers.
The majority of machinery is produced in the west as well, thats the whole point on how the imperialist keeps control of the world, they keep the production of their machinery at home, secretive, thats why china is trying so hard with every trick in the book to develop its own technological base, and why china is able to overcome the imperialist core, as opposed to the rest of the pheriphery which is dependent on the imperialist core.
>distribution centres
The majority of the first world economy is not just warehouses selling to themselves. Riddle me this, with what money does the first world worker buy these commodities if they dont produce anything? If you seriously claim the inane idea that they are just paid money for no reason to do nothing, why would the bourgeoisie do that? The first world is not made up of just cops and people who import stuff for the rich to consume.
>Thats why marx's analysis of labour-power isnt applicable to the west today.
Baseless claim, especially since you litterally use marx's analysis of labour power here >>32017 to make your original claim of this mythical "no reason just evil" imperialism. Marxists need a serious, supported by evidence analysis of how reality works, how capitalism works as it exists today, not a simplistic "us vs them" story where the bourgoiesie of the first world steals money from africa to give the first world proletariat a comfortable life just for shits and giggles. That is the idea of society that hitler had, its just class collaborationism, volkism, that isnt marxist and isnt reality.
>But a competitive world; an actual free market isnt really in anyone's interests, especially not the capitalists
I know, my post isnt some call to action for capitalists, obviously. Maybe read the thing that comes right after if, jesus. It is an explaination of why those countries are poor, what causes poverty, and then after it i explain why capitalism keeps these systemic causes intact for its own benefit.
>Again, you got people here who literally do nothing except get free money to buy drugs with. Its not about production, its about distribution.
[Citation needed]. This is an absurd view of the first world. Claiming the entire first world is just drugged out welfare queens, warehouse cops and regular cops is so detached from reality i would implore you to go outside and get an actual job yourself, because you sound like a 14 year old autist who only read surface level breadtube maoism rather than actual maoist theorists. Especially since you say right after:
>Without profits you lose your economy. The state is here to stay and it needs surplus value to feed itself.

Your reply is deeply unserious and lacks a desire to truly understand the world. This cartoonish characterization of imperialism is just an us vs them underdog story made up by people mad at the first world for not having had a revolution. An objective understanding of reality does not condone the actions of first world class traitors like the social democrats who keep the system in place. It is exactly this idea that the first world needs imperialism, that imperialism makes the countries rich, that causes social democracy. It is a bourgeois conception of the world.

IRL, no. Praxis is working, you're just looking at news too much so you see is as smaller than it really is.

Here, also no. Occasionally the boilerplate elevates a bit further–subtly, but conversations go noticably further over time. Not that discourse matters too much, "direct action gets the goods," after all. But it's a chill hangout spot and scratches my imageboard usage itch.

>>32030
I accidentally deleted my effortpost reply like a fucking retard so i'll keep it concise.
>It just means whatever generates profit under capitalism
Sales create profits. Workers eat profits. Or do you think humans are more profitable than self-checkout?
>The majority of the first world economy is not just warehouses selling to themselves
Yes it is
>Riddle me this, with what money does the first world worker buy these commodities if they dont produce anything?
Look into money markets and fiat currency. Look at how america killed sadam because he started trading oil in euros and how they killed qadafi because he wanted a central bank of africa to leverage trade with the west.
Also, buying currency is part of china's "investment" in america by accumulating "foreign debt". Riddle me this in retvrn, how is the pound, the euro and dollar so powerful? My guess: lack of competition. In marx's time currency was standardised by precious metals. Not anymore.
>If you seriously claim the inane idea that they are just paid money for no reason to do nothing, why would the bourgeoisie do that?
To create sales by a consumer base. Again, how is UBI theoretically possible in the west, and if we're so productive, why do we import everything?
>The first world is not made up of just cops and people who import stuff for the rich to consume.
Its not *just* that, but its largely that
>go outside and get an actual job yourself
Give me a list of actual jobs
>It is exactly this idea that the first world needs imperialism, that imperialism makes the countries rich, that causes social democracy
Well yeah. People want free shit so vote for it.

>>31968
yeah that's the point of a messageboard, isn't it?

>>32033
We aim to be the negation of /pol/; anti-fascist, materialist, better read. Our mission, above all, is to learn, and help others learn, the philosophical tools necessary to elucidate the interrelated and ever-increasingly complex space of self, society, and politics, from the local to the global scale.

>>32032
Yore a retard faggot to.
I hate this aggressively wrong American faggotry, kill yourself.

>>32035
Nice argument lol

>>32014
Isn't this the whole point of Capitalist Realism? Things are bad, but most are scared they could be worse. Or to be more cynical. We've come to love the suffering.

>>32036
When people don't engage your arguments it isn't an indication you made good arguments, its4a indication you made no real arguments.
Can't believe I have yo explain this to you.
Website is overrun by actual American underages today..

>>32038
My boy you can have a disagreement without having a nervous breakdown every time

>>32039
I'm not saying I disagree I'm saying you're so wrong you're either medically retarded or pretending to be fir the memes.
Nazoid faggot eating a bullet would be a waste o a bullet.

>>32040
That's exactly what I mean! Someday you'll learn that you can do things better.

>>32031
>Praxis is working, you're just looking at news too much so you see is as smaller than it really is.
How do you verify that praxis is working on a large scale?

>>32026
>Materialist cope
yes fash-anon magic is real and night-hebrew-goblins steal ya shit while youre sleeping
>This is also why small businesses dont hire people, since people are generally valueless.
what individual bourgeois do with individual proletariats is irrelevant to the wider scope. if there is no profit in labor, wage-labor wouldnt exist
>Without profits you lose your economy
what is an economy?
>The state is here to stay and it needs surplus value to feed itself.
fucking pomo shit. aight, just jump under your bed and cry, gentlemen, nothing to do against the Mighty God Capital®
>>32032
>Sales create profits. Workers eat profits.
incorrect. workers create profits (with their labour), and prices orbit value. no enterprise subsists solely on buying and selling
>do you think humans are more profitable than self-checkout?
no. investing in automation (mechanized/digitalized labour) is a common practise to increase profits. btw is it true that some self-checkout platforms were actually a cover-up for underpaid overseas labour? i remember hearing about that on the news
>how is the pound, the euro and dollar so powerful?
fictitious capital, divorced from the value of production, can only be sustained at gunpoint
>To create sales by a consumer base.
did you know that consumer goods are produced?
>Again, how is UBI theoretically possible in the west, and if we're so productive, why do we import everything?
https://global.toyota/en/company/profile/production-sales-figures/202402.html
just a little example. the west is tremendously productive. flirting with an ubi is the evidence of how much the bourgeois are able to accumulate by exploiting labor, they dont mind sharing a tiny bit of it if it means the socioeconomic structure is not being put into question (contemporaneous bourgeois welfare states are the evidence of this)

>>32043
>if there is no profit in labor, wage-labor wouldnt exist
The large mass of surplus value is extracted from the most exploited workers in the world; i.e. the primary commodity producers whose labour we import. If the third-world stopped making shit the first world would starve. Thats my basic logistics.
Wage-labour is profitable, but its measured against people's wages as such. Africans make shit money.
>what is an economy?
From the times of agriculture there has always been the systematic production of a surplus, which i would say is the *meaning* of an economy. Michael Hudson also makes allusion to this process, that economic life is tied up in the logic of interest and debts, preconceiving the space for a surplus.
>nothing to do against the Mighty God Capital®
Capital can be controlled if you have sovereign nations, but abolishing profits is akin to economic suicide as i say. Its an anti-economic attitude.
>incorrect. workers create profits (with their labour), and prices orbit value. no enterprise subsists solely on buying and selling
Yes, and the most surplus value is generated by our proxy colonies.
>did you know that consumer goods are produced?
By who?
>fictitious capital, divorced from the value of production, can only be sustained at gunpoint
Thats all ive been saying.
>the west is tremendously productive
You linked an article about japan
>flirting with an ubi is the evidence of how much the bourgeois are able to accumulate by exploiting labor, they dont mind sharing a tiny bit of it if it means the socioeconomic structure is not being put into question (contemporaneous bourgeois welfare states are the evidence of this)
Yes, but i would also argue that the service economy is just an extension of this shared wealth. Thats why i say that the periphery produces while the west distributes. Michael Hudson agrees. Again, my guy behind the counter analogy. Is his labour worth 20 times that of an african farmer? NO!

>>32044
>The large mass of surplus value is extracted from the most exploited workers in the world
there is no "most exploited" or "less exploited" worker because exploitation is not a qualitative term
if the mass of surplus value is extracted from the third world, the national bourgeois from those countries wouldnt exist
>If the third-world stopped making shit the first world would starve
i sincerely doubt it. the trade volume and productivity of the global south is minuscule
>abolishing profits is akin to economic suicide as i say. Its an anti-economic attitude.
we seek to surpass profits as the purpose of production and enterprise. at a transitional stage, profits would be socialized, but the goal is to produce for satisfying needs. since the 19th century, the flourishing of abundance due to the ample efficiency and productivity of industries shows that these qualities can be instead redirected towards satisfying needs and not producing commodities
>the most surplus value is generated by our proxy colonies.
nor really
>By who?
not by "the third world", thats for sure. for example, main EU and american import partners are not colonial, non-industrial countries
>You linked an article about japan
…which points out that toyota north american hqs are 10 times more productive than toyota latin american hqs
>Is his labour worth 20 times that of an african farmer? NO!
how can you be so sure? low-tech labor usually compromises low salaries because how simple the production chain is. the cutting-edge technology of the west is the main factor behind its high salaries. even if you think that a swedish office worker's job is worth less than a colombian manual logger's, the office worker's job involves a tremendously complex production chain, like, for example, having access to electronic machinery such as copying machines, computers, telephones, projectors, etc.

>>32045
>there is no "most exploited" or "less exploited" worker
This is the failure of your thinking in one sentence
>the flourishing of abundance due to the ample efficiency and productivity of industries shows that these qualities can be instead redirected towards satisfying needs and not producing commodities
That very productivity is wrapped up in the commodity-form. You can imagine differently but thats my total belief. The stage of nationalising profits is desirable as a sublation of private profits, but central planning is communist retardation.
>low-tech labor usually compromises low salaries because how simple the production chain is. the cutting-edge technology of the west is the main factor behind its high salaries
A guy behind a counter doesnt PRODUCE anything, thats my point. He DISTRIBUTES existing resources. No?

>>32046
>This is the failure of your thinking
well EXCUSE ME mr smarty pants
exploitation is the process in which the bourgeois extract surplus value from labor, it doesnt distinguish between salaries and working conditions
>That very productivity is wrapped up in the commodity-form.
sure, but commodities existed before capitalism
the application of machinery and technology to satisfy needs responds to a social form of production. its not an unchangeable, omnipotent, perpetual mystical essence. if anything, a needs-based social form of production could further perfection efficiency and the distribution of resources, since, for example, people who would otherwise break their backs trying to make ends meet would be able to receive technological training
>You can imagine differently but thats my total belief.
fascists are wackos and scammers. they are outside the political spectrum, even the material form! SPIRITUAL REVOLUTION or something. but at the same time, the world just be like that, nothing to be done about it
>The stage of nationalising profits is desirable as a sublation of private profits
this is just a change of hands. patriotic corporations are totally different from international financiers, trust me bro
>central planning is communist retardation.
didnt your mom teach you manners? planification already occurs in the private sphere, what matters is who plans and what for

>>32046
>A guy behind a counter doesnt PRODUCE anything
oh and i agree with this, but thats a different issue than what we were talking about

Central planning of the economy is fundamental for a functioning economy

>>32047
>exploitation is the process in which the bourgeois extract surplus value from labor
And its not possible to extract more or less surplus value by unpaid Value realised in the sale of commodities? If i pay one guy $5/hr and another $10/hr for the same job im not exploiting one more?
I would argue that all societies (all economies) as built on this very reserve of unpaid labour, whether its in the workplace or the home.
>sure, but commodities existed before capitalism
Yes ofc. They are a transhistorical fact of economic life, and the idea of overcoming them by overcoming exchange and thus returning to communist conditions of creating mere use-values is pithy speculation and marx's weakest area of conceptualising history.
>a needs-based social form of production could further perfection efficiency and the distribution of resources
We already have public services which sublate aspects of the market. Whats unfortunate though is that a lot of them are shit, not in principle, but in practice, because there is no social/national self-conception.
The japanese for example have universal healthcare, but thats because they are a "people" proper and promote a healthy culture (diet wise), so dont fill up waiting lists and so on. Other cultural things like the unpaid labour of students cleaning their school up or their domestic gerontocracy bypassing needs for pension funds also add to the integral wholeness of their economy. I dont think my country should be like japan, but its always good to learn.
>planification already occurs in the private sphere, what matters is who plans and what for
Uh, sorting accounts isnt "central planning". Its regulation, which is a further sublation of market contradictions. I support regulations, does that make me a commie goon? Be critical.
>>32048
Its exactly what we've been discussing.

>>31984
>we don’t get off on wasting our time pointlessly antagonizing other communities

And this is a bad thing how? I got shit to do, I’m not wasting my time with dumbfuck meme war bullshit