No.5607
>>5605when he was writing about jazz, he meant like frank sinatra and benny goodman and the other watered-down white artists that were the only ones being played on radio back then
No.5611
>>5605he fell for the Freud meme
No.5612
>>5605>Why do communist NERDS dislike jazz?it's inaccessible to the proletariat.
You need to be a talented full-time professional musician with a high quality instrument to achieve the Jazz sound.
A prole with a cheap mass produced instrument is just going to sound like somebody who can't play the notes correctly.
As a prole who can practice a music instrument 2 hours a week. You can basically do stuff like acoustical guitar, rock music, classical music and brass band type stuff. This list is not comprehensive, for example you can also make techno music with a computer on a proletarian money and time budget, but you get my drift.
No.5613
>>5612idk anon, being a musician no matter what is gonna be a sacrifice unless you have somekind of trustfund that allows you to have unlimited time, but that goes for all skilled labour in general except with music the recompense is usually minimal, thats why the division of labour exists.
No.5616
>>5615did you feel proud? is this the height of achievement in your life?
No.5617
>>5613>idk anon, being a musician no matter what is gonna be a sacrificeIt depends why you make music, learning and playing an instrument is the best way to teach your self emotional control.
No.5618
>>5609This is correct. A few "highlights":
<Adorno published in the CIA-funded journal Der Monat, the largest review of its kind in Europe and the model for many of the Agency’s other publications. His articles appeared, as well, in two other CIA magazines: Encounter and Tempo presente. He also hosted in his home, corresponded and collaborated with the CIA operative who was arguably the leading figure in the German anticommunist Kulturkampf: Melvin Lasky.
<Adorno’s father was a “wealthy wine merchant” (…) Adorno “had no personal ties at all to socialist political life” and maintained throughout his life “a deep aversion to formal membership of any party organization.”
<Although Adorno often indulged in the petty-bourgeois politics of complicit passivity, avoiding public pronouncements on major political events, the few statements he did make were strikingly reactionary. For instance, in 1956, he co-authored an article with Horkheimer in defense of the imperialist invasion of Egypt by Israel, Britain and France, which aimed at seizing the Suez Canal and overthrowing Nasser (an action condemned by the United Nations). Referring to Nasser, one of the prominent anti-colonial leaders of the non-aligned movement, as “a fascist chieftain…
<One of the most consistent political claims advanced by Adorno and Horkheimer is that there is a “totalitarian” equivalence between fascism and communism, if it manifests itself in socialist state-building projects, anticolonial movements of the “Third World,” or even New Left mobilizations in the Western world (…) Adorno claimed, “and whoever fails to resist it is literally guilty of repeating Chamberlain’s appeasement.”>>5614What's your take on the above?
No.5621
>>5610hahahahahahha hell yea dude
No.5622
>>5612FIrst of all, whether or not someone can play a particular genre is irrelevant to whether or not they like it, most people don't play instruments period. Still, the vast majority of those that do, regardless of genre, are proles.
Second of all, here we go again with this garbage about proles not having the time to do anything but be wage slaves and consoooom. Nah, normal people have hobbies that they can easily invest more than 2 hours a day into (I assume this is what you meant, 2 hours per week is effortless)
I dont even understand why you're elitist view of jazz doesn't extend to classical music and brass band type stuff either, instruments are expensive in general and the genres aren't popular. You might as well just say the proles are too retarded for music and be done with it
No.5623
>>5618Melvin Lasky was an experienced socialist publisher prior to Der Monat and Encounter which were supported by the secretly CIA funded CCF but only because they happened to be opposed to the Soviet bloc which Adorno really made no secret of, and publishing in a magazine doesn't necessarily entail you seeing eye-to-eye with the editorial anyways. The other highlights are nonsense.
No.5626
>>5623>Melvin Lasky was an experienced socialist publisher prior to Der Monat and Encounter which were supported by the secretly CIA funded CCF but only because they happened to be opposed to the Soviet bloc which Adorno really made no secret ofWow, what a slimy way to speak. Impressive.
>because they happened to beLasky wrote a letter to the office of Lucius Clay, directly and explicitly asking for funding anti-Soviet propaganda.
>which Adorno really made no secret ofIn what deranged mind does this move count as a valid counter-argument: Get accused of shitty thing. – Not really making a secret of it though!
>The other highlights are nonsense.Are they true or not? Or is your "argument" that you are just too cool to care? How is anyone supposed to take you seriously?
No.5635
>>5612>You need to be a talented full-time professional musician with a high quality instrument to achieve the Jazz sound.No you don't lol, just go to a fucking jazz club once in your life.
A second-hand decent saxophone is the same price as a good guitar.
>A prole with a cheap mass produced instrument is just going to sound like somebody who can't play the notes correctly."The Jazz sound" isn't a matter of the quality of your instrument, it's a matter of chords, scales, rhythm and improvisation. You can play jazz on a regular Stratocaster copy.
>As a prole who can practice a music instrument 2 hours a week. You can basically do stuff like acoustical guitar, rock music, classical music and brass band type stuff.>classical musicAre you kidding me? A prole has not enough time to learn how to improvise over 4 minutes-long jazz standards but 2 hours a week is sufficient to learn how to sight read sheet music, how to play correctly 40 minutes-long string quartets and symphonies? Do you really believe the average prole can learn how to play the most complex Chopin and Lizst pieces? The price of a decent cello is affordable to a prole but not a trumpet or a saxophone for playing jazz?
Sorry anon, but it's obvious you have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about.
>This list is not comprehensive, for example you can also make techno music with a computer on a proletarian money and time budget, but you get my drift.You can also pirate a piano VST and learn jazz standards with a decent MIDI keyboard and audio interface, just saying.
>>5622>FIrst of all, whether or not someone can play a particular genre is irrelevant to whether or not they like it, most people don't play instruments period. Still, the vast majority of those that do, regardless of genre, are proles. This.
>Second of all, here we go again with this garbage about proles not having the time to do anything but be wage slaves and consoooom. Nah, normal people have hobbies that they can easily invest more than 2 hours a day into (I assume this is what you meant, 2 hours per week is effortless)Most people I know who are in bands and play live shows are either unemployed and on the dole, or have part-time jobs. You underestimate the amount of time needed to be good at music and you overestimate the amount of energy the average prole has after a full time job.
No.5641
It paved way to Progressive Rock and Jazz Fusion which is considered aesthetically uncool even among music hipsters.
No.5643
>>5635well it's anecdote vs anecdote but I know a lot of musicians from the Toronto music scene and they all work because you would be homeless otherwise. Not denying that it take a lot of time and effort to get good at instruments, yet us proles somehow persevere
No.7698
Jazz is more work ethic than art
No.7710
>>5605because it was the first (and only, at that time) of genre what people today call commercial music. he saw the contrast between the advertised image of jazz: very talented individuals breaking the chains of academic music and becoming rich and famous in the process, perfect examples of the american self-made man. and the truth behind jazz: very rigid rules that the virtuoso never really escapes, manufactured success stories and big record companies' profit motive as the most important trend-setter
today we just assume that the media that we consume is
fake, it has become common sense. I guess the concept had some novelty in the 1930s
tl;dr jazz = ideology t. adorno
No.8224
It's boring and commercial and capitalizes on racist stereotypes of Black people and music (laid back, "soulful", etc)
No.8225
thiel bux
No.8226
>>8224ZAMN
can't win as an object of fetishization either way huh? can't over correct with respect when some people are antagonistic and racist, because then it's patronizing and alienating in another way…
not reaply music related but meh
No.8230
>>8229agreed but there's already a thread for that
No.8289
>>8288I skim-read it and he basically just seethe about syncopated dance music because he is a German nerd who cannot dance, and think he can fight the organic expression of colonized black people thru the musical commodity form with his big boy dialectical concepts.
Uygha would have died if he heard 2 minutes of Dark Magus-era Miles Davis. It's like the interview of Karlheinz Stockhausen where he listens to Aphex Twin, and here is his reaction:
>Interviewer: Can we talk about the music we sent you? It was very good of you to listen to it. I wonder if you could give some advice to these musicians.
>Stockhausen: I wish those musicians would not allow themselves any repetitions, and would go faster in developing their ideas or their findings, because I don't appreciate at all this permanent repetitive language. It is like someone who is stuttering all the time, and can't get words out of his mouth. I think musicians should have very concise figures and not rely on this fashionable psychology. I don't like psychology whatsoever: using music like a drug is stupid. One shouldn't do that : music is the product of the highest human intelligence, and of the best senses, the listening senses and of imagination and intuition.>And as soon as it becomes just a means for ambiance, as we say, environment, or for being used for certain purposes, then music becomes a whore, and one should not allow that really; one should not serve any existing demands or in particular not commercial values. That would be terrible: that is selling out the music.>I heard the piece Aphex Twin of Richard James carefully: I think it would be very helpful if he listens to my work Song Of The Youth, which is electronic music, and a young boy's voice singing with himself. Because he would then immediately stop with all these post-African repetitions, and he would look for changing tempi and changing rhythms, and he would not allow to repeat any rhythm if it were varied to some extent and if it did not have a direction in its sequence of variations. And the other composer - musician, I don't know if they call themselves composers… Now, go listen to Gesang Der Jünglinge, vid related, and tell me what you think of it.
Adorno was an interesting guy, but this essay became a meme for a reason.
No.8290
>>5612> it's inaccessible to the proletariatMost of the OG jazz and blues musicians were poor af. Bull
No.8292
>>8289>organic expression of colonized black people thru the musical commodity formHe doesn't deny this, but he doesn't see it as an excuse either. Why should "colonized black people" have to be restricted to the musical expression of domestic bondage?
No.8313
>>5635>A second-hand decent saxophone is the same price as a good guitar.Same with a digital piano like the Yamaha P45
No.8314
>>8313Also not to be like a fiscal responsibility booj or whatever, but you can save up for a professional quality instrument while in the meantime practicing with a cheaper equivalent
No.8315
>>5605who the fuck is this guy and who made him king of marxism
i remember minima moralia used to get shilled a fuck ton on leftist pseud twitter, but when i read it it was the most annoying, whiny upper-middle class shit i'd read. like none of this guy's views would be out of place at a WASPish dinner party i imagine
No.8319
>>>/music/8289the idpol brain at it's finest. you read an essay about the commodification of culture, the false image projected by this commodification process, the material causes, and the implications for art and
pre-capitalist, traditional culture, and the only thing that comes to your mind is
>adorno, a white man, is tangentially criticizing a black musician, therefore adorno is racist No.8327
>>8315its just racism repackaged in academic language, not much else too it
No.8329
>>8289The critique isn't that there's syncopation in jazz music, Adorno doesn't hate syncopation, it's that syncopation lends a false individual quality to the commodified rigidity of jazz music: the repeating bass drum that goes on and on
Also jazz has very superficial origins in some African folk music traditions, and its claim to being "black music" or whatever is just another marketing tactic
No.8330
>>8329it was called 'black music' because classical musicians refused to engage with it at the time, and segregated bars and clubs refused to host black musicians playing jazz; that label might have been put onto them by music labels/society but the segregation of jazz on race lines was very real.
No.8331
>>8330>and segregated bars and clubs refused to host black musicians playing jazzThis is factually untrue. Look up the Cotton Club in Harlem, where only a select few famous black people were allowed to patronize.
No.8332
>>8331https://scholarcommons.scu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1052&context=historical-perspectivesanon just because you can pick examples of one or two clubs doesnt mean that the overwhelming expeirence of a black jazz musician in 1917 was segregation of there music, it is also widely accepted that its origins are from southern black musicians
No.8333
>segregation existed
<t-thats not true there are uh a handful of bars/club that didnt segregated
>therefore segregation didnt existed
retard
No.8336
>>8332>>8333The Cotton Club was segregated
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotton_Club>The Cotton Club was a New York City nightclub from 1923 to 1940. It was located on 142nd Street and Lenox Avenue (1923–1936), then briefly in the midtown Theater District (1936–1940).[1] The club operated during the United States' era of Prohibition and Jim Crow era racial segregation. Black people initially could not patronize the Cotton Club, but the venue featured many of the most popular black entertainers of the era, including musicians Fletcher Henderson, Duke Ellington, Jimmie Lunceford, Chick Webb, Louis Armstrong, Count Basie, Fats Waller, Willie Bryant; vocalists Adelaide Hall,[2][3] Ethel Waters, Cab Calloway, Bessie Smith, Aida Ward, Avon Long, the Dandridge Sisters, the Will Vodery Choir, The Mills Brothers, Nina Mae McKinney, Billie Holiday, Midge Williams, Lena Horne, and dancers such as Katherine Dunham, Bill Robinson, The Nicholas Brothers, Charles 'Honi' Coles, Leonard Reed, Stepin Fetchit, the Berry Brothers, The Four Step Brothers, Jeni Le Gon and Earl Snakehips Tucker. ..
>The Cotton Club was a whites-only establishment with rare exceptions for black celebrities such as Ethel Waters and Bill Robinson.[7] It reproduced the racist imagery of the era, often depicting black people as savages in exotic jungles or as "darkies" in the plantation South. A 1938 menu included this imagery, with illustrations done by Julian Harrison, showing naked black men and women dancing around a drum in the jungle. Tribal mask illustrations make up the border of the menu.[6][8]>The club imposed a subtler color line on the chorus girls, whom the club presented in skimpy outfits. They were expected to be "tall, tan, and terrific," which meant they had to be at least 5'6" tall, light-skinned, and under 21 years of age.[9] The male dancers', the Cotton Club Boys, skin colors were more varied. "Black performers did not mix with the club's clientele, and after the show many of them went next door to the basement of the superintendent at 646 Lenox, where they imbibed corn whiskey, peach brandy, and marijuana."[10] No.8338
>>8337
"They" is me. You said that segregated bars and clubs refused to play jazz, this is evidence against that.
No.8339
>>8338fair; what I meant by that is the mere existence of segregated bars/clubs, this isnt a dynamic any other genre of music had to consider and a vast majority of music venues would not play jazz untill segregation ended, with even the ones that did making a seperate 'coloured' area filled with racist tropes.
No.8340
>>8339Jazz was always fairly integrated band wise. Even ragtime bands had people of all different racializations. Segregation itself was just a fact of some public life in the US at the time. Also, it's worth noting that jazz took just as much from military marching band music as it did from "African" folk traditions.
No.8341
>>8340music takes what it can grab from all around it, that black musicians where infulenced by military marching bands doesnt mean much; the character of jazz was uniquely black and it was viewed as such in the time period.
a lot of the compliexty in jazz is mostly just a flex at the percieved stupidity of black people.
No.8342
>>8341>the character of jazz was uniquely black Pure ideology
No.8348
This guy wasn't a communist, he was some weird neurotic bourgeois philosopher that unironically still believed in Hegelian metaphysics and made it the centerpiece of his thought
This led to extremely pointless, neurotic views on aesthetics and music including
>>8288The parts about "commodification" have no real explanation, there is no reason for him to critique the fact that jazz music tends to have a constant percussive rhythm aside from maybe knee-jerk reaction and then Hegelian/Marxist-sounding mumbo jumbo to attempt to rationalize it after the fact
No.8377
>>8348He's right though. Most people nowadays have the most mangled understanding of music because they're forced to listen to the same song over and over again but with marginal variation. This goes beyond "popular music" to subgenres like metal and hip hop and niche EDM, too, because they create even more of a false escape while helping to carve out newer markets.
No.8448
>>8342material, it was who composed the original jazz bands and who engaged with and cultiivated the culture; it was absorbed and diluted by the hegemon, which is white; but this isnt unique to jazz.
No.8458
>>8448Ragtime had a ton of white composers and musicians. The origin of jazz and blues in 19th century African-American musical forms is ambiguous and we have to rely on the anecdotes of the composers themselves, who usually came from the upper-middle class and were originally trained in European art music, black or white.
>it was absorbed and diluted by the hegemon, which is whiteWhen, and how? What does it mean for a musical form to be "absorbed and diluted"?
No.8459
>>8458
>When, and how? What does it mean for a musical form to be "absorbed and diluted"?Its the transformation of a 'underground' music scene into a commitidity to be packaged and sold. By 'diluted' I mean, the procsess of a white hegemonic culture taking a underground niche and sanatizing it with less edge to appeal to a wider audience; most of the cultural context and musicians of origin get left behind in favour of the 'rockstar' few that capitalists circle around and pump money into.
>Ragtime had a ton of white composers and musicians.Sure, all music has origins; you wouldnt call hip hop a non-black genre though just because they might sample some white prog rock bands, the exception doesnt make the rule.
>The origin of jazz and blues in 19th century African-American musical forms is ambiguous and we have to rely on the anecdotes of the composers themselvesthe essay here goes into this quite a lot actually, you have other people picking up the form but the modes, style and aesthetic of the music was devoloped id say mostly by New Orleans in the Congo Square during the 19th century by blues artists progressing forms of music with a fusion of other things around, mainly being ragtime, blues and marching band styles.
Being its mostly the south, in areas with high densities of slaves and with references to blues and ragtime, both genres occupied by mostly black culture artists in regards to blues, and mixed with ragtime; its a fair assesment.
No.8491
>>8459>you wouldnt call hip hop a non-black genre though just because they might sample some white prog rock bandsThat's not the same thing
I'm saying composers and musicians were "white" a lot of the time
No.8493
Modern jazz is meaningless and emphasizes the subjectivity of the musician over all else, especially comprehensive structure and melody. Jazz music is disorientating to casual listeners. Jazz reinforces bourgeois values such as consumerism, Individualism, relativism, etc. by emphasizing personal taste, novelty, experimentation, and pleasure.
Though espousing such values, jazz lacks originality, creativity, depth, etc. Jazz expresses NOTHING of meaning or value, only the subjective feelings or moods of the artists.
The crackkker bourgeois built jazz from upon the agony of the lumpenized negro. Jazz is the commodified and cracKKKerfied SUFFERING of the NEGRO.
Jazz is nihilism.
Jazz is postmodernism.
Jazz is bourgeois.
No.8494
>>8493Though jazz emphasizes subjectivity, it is not a manifestation of creativity. Jazz is the manifestation of the synthesis of the contradictions of a fucked society.
Jazz is for bourgeois fucks who sit in their living rooms and talk back and forth about the weather in key to their shitty music.
No.8495
>>8494They don't give a fuuck about the rules or the listener. They change key or break out out of key whenever the fuck they want. FUCK JAZZ MUSCICIANS, THEY SUCK
No.8497
>>8493>>8494>>8495t. can't jive, 0 pep or fillies
No.8500
>>8498You're the crakkker or a buckbr9ken negro
No.8501
>>8500Me again. Blues is based. Jazz is for crakkkers and crakkker lovers.
No.8502
>>8495Music has no rules, retard. Music theory is descriptive.
No.8503
>>8502Ok. Make some atonal music then and let's listen… we don't need rules or tonality
No.8504
>>8503>we don't need tonalityThings nobody said.
No.8505
>>8504Music has no rules. Music theory is descriptive, not a tool to be used to create. Let's hear some music that sticks to these principals.
No.8506
>>8505Most jazz conforms to Western common-practice tonality and has plenty of rules. If you really want your reactionary head to explode, go listen to some Schoenberg.
No.8511
>>8509>I'm not talking about negro jazz, i mean jazz after the bourgeois white man ruined it.Race essentializing dreck
No.8513
>>8509>jazz has to bop or its made by white peoplethe 'bop' is to make it palatable to white people, you have it backwards.
No.8794
>>8501All blues music after WWII and especially Civil Rights is dogshit
Black people stopped suffering to make good music
Good for them I guess
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