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Not reporting is bourgeois


File: 1748191259621.png (601.64 KB, 893x989, gigaferal.png)

 

Wait…. does advocating for Worker's councils instead of Vanguards make me an anarkiddie?

>Flood detected; Post discarded. Flood detected; Post discarded. Flood detected; Post discarded.

both are fine and just tools imagine going to a jobsite and a bunch of guys are argueing like this
>im a wrenchist-hammerists and only wrenches and hammers can fix this
<noooo if you use wrenches and hammers the jobsite will fall as an Uggaduggan we should only use the ugga dugga gun to fix things
>both of you are wrong and traitors to the jobsite only through the application of of socket-ratchet-wrench thought will we fix this!

File: 1748200939744.mp4 (1.81 MB, 854x480, its_a_tool.mp4)

>>669902
>just tools

>>669938
lmao saved

>>669870
It makes you a council communist not necessarily an anarchist

>>669870
>Worker's councils instead of Vanguards
Pancake Pilled

>>669870
more like a leftcom infant or a leftkiddy, worker councils without a vanguard will always stagnate with economic demands and eventually fall for reformism or become super ultra and get massacred by fascists

>>670020
the opportunist vantard in practice will crack down on local soviets when they dare to oppose vantardist "guidance of" (rule over) the workers, even after declaring "all power to the soviets" as explained in the video from >>670008

>debating over le 'ideal' form of class organization
Just another day on leftoidpol.

It’s the proletariat that makes the revolution happen, not some group of communists acting on their own. A revolutionary party in whatever shape doesn’t just exist all the time, it forms when the conditions for revolution are actually there. For example, Marx and Engels were not affiliated with any political party, at least not after the dissolution of the League.

>Worker's councils instead of Vanguards
A number of Socialists have latterly launched a regular crusade against what they call the principle of authority. It suffices to tell them that this or that act is authoritarian for it to be condemned. This summary mode of procedure is being abused to such an extent that it has become necessary to look into the matter somewhat more closely.

Authority, in the sense in which the word is used here, means: the imposition of the will of another upon ours; on the other hand, authority presupposes subordination. Now, since these two words sound bad, and the relationship which they represent is disagreeable to the subordinated party, the question is to ascertain whether there is any way of dispensing with it, whether — given the conditions of present-day society — we could not create another social system, in which this authority would be given no scope any longer, and would consequently have to disappear.

On examining the economic, industrial and agricultural conditions which form the basis of present-day bourgeois society, we find that they tend more and more to replace isolated action by combined action of individuals. Modern industry, with its big factories and mills, where hundreds of workers supervise complicated machines driven by steam, has superseded the small workshops of the separate producers; the carriages and wagons of the highways have become substituted by railway trains, just as the small schooners and sailing feluccas have been by steam-boats. Even agriculture falls increasingly under the dominion of the machine and of steam, which slowly but relentlessly put in the place of the small proprietors big capitalists, who with the aid of hired workers cultivate vast stretches of land.

Everywhere combined action, the complication of processes dependent upon each other, displaces independent action by individuals. But whoever mentions combined action speaks of organisation; now, is it possible to have organisation without authority?

Supposing a social revolution dethroned the capitalists, who now exercise their authority over the production and circulation of wealth. Supposing, to adopt entirely the point of view of the anti-authoritarians, that the land and the instruments of labour had become the collective property of the workers who use them. Will authority have disappeared, or will it only have changed its form? Let us see.

Let us take by way of example a cotton spinning mill. The cotton must pass through at least six successive operations before it is reduced to the state of thread, and these operations take place for the most part in different rooms. Furthermore, keeping the machines going requires an engineer to look after the steam engine, mechanics to make the current repairs, and many other labourers whose business it is to transfer the products from one room to another, and so forth. All these workers, men, women and children, are obliged to begin and finish their work at the hours fixed by the authority of the steam, which cares nothing for individual autonomy. The workers must, therefore, first come to an understanding on the hours of work; and these hours, once they are fixed, must be observed by all, without any exception. Thereafter particular questions arise in each room and at every moment concerning the mode of production, distribution of material, etc., which must be settled by decision of a delegate placed at the head of each branch of labour or, if possible, by a majority vote, the will of the single individual will always have to subordinate itself, which means that questions are settled in an authoritarian way. The automatic machinery of the big factory is much more despotic than the small capitalists who employ workers ever have been. At least with regard to the hours of work one may write upon the portals of these factories: Lasciate ogni autonomia, voi che entrate! [Leave, ye that enter in, all autonomy behind!]

If man, by dint of his knowledge and inventive genius, has subdued the forces of nature, the latter avenge themselves upon him by subjecting him, in so far as he employs them, to a veritable despotism independent of all social organisation. Wanting to abolish authority in large-scale industry is tantamount to wanting to abolish industry itself, to destroy the power loom in order to return to the spinning wheel.

Let us take another example — the railway. Here too the co-operation of an infinite number of individuals is absolutely necessary, and this co-operation must be practised during precisely fixed hours so that no accidents may happen. Here, too, the first condition of the job is a dominant will that settles all subordinate questions, whether this will is represented by a single delegate or a committee charged with the execution of the resolutions of the majority of persona interested. In either case there is a very pronounced authority. Moreover, what would happen to the first train dispatched if the authority of the railway employees over the Hon. passengers were abolished?

But the necessity of authority, and of imperious authority at that, will nowhere be found more evident than on board a ship on the high seas. There, in time of danger, the lives of all depend on the instantaneous and absolute obedience of all to the will of one.

When I submitted arguments like these to the most rabid anti-authoritarians, the only answer they were able to give me was the following: Yes, that's true, but there it is not the case of authority which we confer on our delegates, but of a commission entrusted! These gentlemen think that when they have changed the names of things they have changed the things themselves. This is how these profound thinkers mock at the whole world.

We have thus seen that, on the one hand, a certain authority, no matter how delegated, and, on the other hand, a certain subordination, are things which, independently of all social organisation, are imposed upon us together with the material conditions under which we produce and make products circulate.

We have seen, besides, that the material conditions of production and circulation inevitably develop with large-scale industry and large-scale agriculture, and increasingly tend to enlarge the scope of this authority. Hence it is absurd to speak of the principle of authority as being absolutely evil, and of the principle of autonomy as being absolutely good. Authority and autonomy are relative things whose spheres vary with the various phases of the development of society. If the autonomists confined themselves to saying that the social organisation of the future would restrict authority solely to the limits within which the conditions of production render it inevitable, we could understand each other; but they are blind to all facts that make the thing necessary and they passionately fight against the word.

Why do the anti-authoritarians not confine themselves to crying out against political authority, the state? All Socialists are agreed that the political state, and with it political authority, will disappear as a result of the coming social revolution, that is, that public functions will lose their political character and will be transformed into the simple administrative functions of watching over the true interests of society. But the anti-authoritarians demand that the political state be abolished at one stroke, even before the social conditions that gave birth to it have been destroyed. They demand that the first act of the social revolution shall be the abolition of authority. Have these gentlemen ever seen a revolution? A revolution is certainly the most authoritarian thing there is; it is the act whereby one part of the population imposes its will upon the other part by means of rifles, bayonets and cannon — authoritarian means, if such there be at all; and if the victorious party does not want to have fought in vain, it must maintain this rule by means of the terror which its arms inspire in the reactionists. Would the Paris Commune have lasted a single day if it had not made use of this authority of the armed people against the bourgeois? Should we not, on the contrary, reproach it for not having used it freely enough?

Therefore, either one of two things: either the anti-authoritarians don't know what they're talking about, in which case they are creating nothing but confusion; or they do know, and in that case they are betraying the movement of the proletariat. In either case they serve the reaction.

>>670119
Yes we have all read On Authority by Engels and yet what do we see vantardism do in practice? Create unaccountable bureaucracies that abuse actual workers, all in the name of securing the victory of the revolution against counterrevolution only to get liberalized from within later on. Vantardism got its chance in the 20th century. Now is the age of councilchads. Real Soviets. Unmolested by central executive committees dissolving them whenever they vote the "wrong" way

>>670157
You are quite the profound thinker. Enlighten us: how do these proletarian councils differ from a vanguard party? There are either proletarian "councils," which constitute a vanguard party, or some utopian, supposedly unpoliticized, class-mixingbourgeois committee.

>>669938
Gemerald

>>669870
>Wait…. does advocating for Worker's councils instead of Vanguards make me an anarkiddie?
No it just makes you a communist.

>>670020
>you have abolish worker control of society and MOP because fascism or something
Kys

>>670191
our profound thinkers still fail to explain how their bourgeois councils differ from proletarian vanguard

File: 1748242935012.jpg (37.23 KB, 603x603, mahito7.jpg)

>>669902
FPBP. This entire thread is pure willful dishonesty. I'm honestly surprised you've lasted this long without killing yourselves again with the constant retarded infighting.

>>670199
Anti-party forces are bourgeois

>>669902
Wrong. anti-party forces are bourgeois. White rebellions and White demands for "unpoliticized" non-party "councils" to destroy proletarian supremacy is unacceptable. You are liberal.

File: 1748244830694.webp (14.44 KB, 386x259, Mahito_reading.webp)

>>670209
>To be able forcefully and threateningly to oppose this [bourgeois-democratic] party, whose betrayal of the workers will begin with the very first hour of victory, the workers must be armed and organized. The whole proletariat must be armed at once with muskets, rifles, cannon and ammunition, and the revival of the old-style citizens’ militia, directed against the workers, must be opposed. Where the formation of this militia cannot be prevented, the workers must try to organize themselves independently as a proletarian guard, with elected leaders and with their own elected general staff; they must try to place themselves not under the orders of the state authority but of the revolutionary local councils set up by the workers.
-Karl Marx

>>670214
Marx contends that White rebellions and other such bourgeois efforts of destruction of the proletarian vanguard party must be crushed

File: 1748245919347.jpg (9.91 KB, 320x180, mahito4.jpg)

>>670215
Thank you for explaining the quote for the rest of the class. You may sit down.

>>670217
Wrong. I am explaining the quote to you. You are a democrat.
>FPBP. This entire thread is pure willful dishonesty. I'm honestly surprised you've lasted this long without killing yourselves again with the constant retarded infighting.
You say White demands for non-party council are valid. You fail to grasp the class nature of contradiction between proletarian vanguard party and bourgeois non-party councils. You strive for destruction of proletarian vanguard party.

File: 1748248494020.jpg (58.84 KB, 736x736, mahito12.jpg)

>>670222
Trips wasted on a strawman. I'm surprised you have managed to survive this long without knowing how to tie your shoes.

>>670209
it was the party that dismantled socialism though

Because workers left to their own device are retarded

I just like councils, especially within workplaces and acrocc industry, as one way of enocraging organising

>>670209
you are an anticommunist larper who will be a david horowitz built conservatard in 6 months to year lmao

File: 1748283597933.webp (49.96 KB, 755x755, mahito3.webp)

>>670381
So much bad faith. There is no need to be so belligerent, we are all comrades here.

>>670396
Who is this cutie

>>670396
is it bad faith if me n bro have gotten into this arguement before?

File: 1748285721118.jpg (36.9 KB, 490x490, mahito13.jpg)

>>670405
Mahito from JJK. He can give you cancer just by touching you you know
>>670409
NGL uyghas be fighting and being fucking dishonest as shit and I've seen y'all uyghas throw keyboards for years. It's gonna happen eventually and it's really not that deep man

>>670416
I mean is it not true that hyper sectarian vanguardists(almost always self identified trots and stalinists) make up a disproportionate amount of excommunist collaborators like lovestone and horowitz? Your right that its still just keyboard smashing at shitflinging at the end of the day

>>669870
I thought you meant a Betriebsrat.
You're a liberal because you think on these lines. Hence yes, an anarkiddie or a liberal socialist whatever you like. Useless by any other name.

>>670243
Fake news. The whites strive to destroy socialism by destroying proletarian vanguard party.
>>670419
Wrong. You are anti-Communist. Trotskyites cannot form a vanguard party. Communist Party resolved that trotskyite disorder is petty-bourgeois deviatiom from Marxism-Leninism.
https://www.marxists.org/history/international/comintern/sections/britain/pamphlets/1925/trotskyism/resolution.htm

Democrats. Come and explain how your non-party class mixing proletarian supremacy destroying councils differ from proletarian vanguard

Oh look. A convenient council communist thread after I got snitched to the mods.
>>670442
Vanguard parties are so yesterday

>>670443
Wrong. Proletarian vanguard party is only proletarian government that works. Non-party councils are bourgeois.

>>670448
>Proletarian vanguard party
Are doomed to devolve back into liberalism. The party at most should be the workers party and nothing more.

Proletarian vanguards are perfectly fine, and are what should actually be utilized to guide and assist the movement m.

>>670455
>Proletarian vanguards are perfectly fine
Vanguard(s)? How many proletarian classes are there?

>>670443
it was always here, if you put some effort to look around instead to defend the indefensable elsewhere you would have found it.

>>670442
the vanguard party most definitely dismantled socialism in 1991. and they did the same in every other socialist country that ever existed

>>670478
so why the vanguard party of cuba and DPRK did'nt do the same ?.
why there are governments governed by vanguard parties yet have capitalist modes of production such as China laos and Vietnam not had been devolved into bourgeous democracies, thus refusing the absolute power the bourg has on the average capitalist powers ?

>>670442
You are unemployed. get a J-O-B

How have none of you realized that you need the party, the union, the council and the guard, all of them for this? Fix your myopia already.
>I mean is it not true that hyper sectarian vanguardists(almost always self identified trots and stalinists) make up a disproportionate amount of excommunist collaborators like lovestone and horowitz?
Is it any more true than other such tendencies of leftists going to the right or rightists to the left? Do you actually know this to be the case, or did you extrapolate based on some micropolitical prejudice and a few oft repeated examples?

>>670532
You are anti-Communist. I produce more value in one working day than you in entire life.

>>670590
>How have none of you realized that you need the party, the union, the council and the guard, all of them for this? Fix your myopia already.
Wrong. All needed is proletarian State dictated by proletarian vanguard party. Unions and strikes are not needed in Communism because class antagonism does not exist. Council and guard are subsumed entirely by proletarian vanguard Party therefore you are the one who fails to grasp that proletarian vanguard Party is only effective proletarian dictatorship.

>>670593
you produce nothing, you would be better off working in a sweatshop

File: 1748326957536.webp (23.02 KB, 640x640, mahito2.webp)

>>670604
You must be hard of reading. I said 'fix your myopia', not 'double down and make it worse by spouting autistic jargon with zero references to anything anywhere'.

>>670607
i work in sweat shop. kill yourself.
>>670610
our braindead anime jpg menshevikkk makes more example of horrible posting.

File: 1748327568018.webp (50.94 KB, 976x546, worm.webp)

>>670612
Shut the fuck up, ssukkkdem.

Leninists should be killed as enemies of the workers.

>>670637
>the greatests champions of socialism-communism are le bad.
damn, wanna kill us, do better in establishing something then hunt us down, ill be waiting, at least my skelleton will.

>>670604
*Dictatorship of party bureaucracy intensifies*

>>670637
Eh, Leninists are redeemable I think. Stalinists get the rope though

>>670637
I'm not leaving my dead husband, come and get me lil bro.

>>670593
your a fucking bum get a life

>>670209
Which party? You are posting on an imageboard

>>670646
>muh stalinism
made up nonsense, there is just leninism, know Stalin triggers you but don't change all he did was leninism and nothing else.

>>670199
>>670214
>>670217
>>670232
>>670396
>>670416
>>670590
>>670610
>>670618
im out of the loop why are these fruits now self-inserting as mahito

>>670853
Wrong you are lumpen

>>671376
you are a burden NEETboy kys NOW

>>670192
>abolish worker control of society and MOP
you won't get none of this without a vanguard councils will get coopted or destroyed simple as

>>671328
wich councils?

>>670419
as opposed to anarkiddies who are feds since the begining

>>670459
>>670604
anon is alright with vanguards as long as you don't call them a party (wich they are) and make sure to denounce stalin every 2 sentences

>>671384
tbh its just hypersectarians and purists in general, ofc someone who throws a histrionic fit everytime there's a slight difference on how to achieve socialism will eventually end up going fed in one way or another. interestingly despite all there differences its MLs and Anarchists who are the worst abt this stuff specifically

>>671386
>someone who throws a histrionic fit everytime there's a slight difference on how to achieve socialism
proletarian socialism is the only correct socialism.

>>671392
NTA but what exactly is proletarian socialism

>>671405
what lenin wrote on State and revolution but without calling it ML cos thats hecking problematic!1!

>>671384
MLs are wannabe feds

>I used to be a bitter anarcho-communist radlib and browsed r/196, r/Anarchism, r/TheRightCantMeme, r/antiwork ect ect and almost every night i would watch porn of antifa girls pussies gripping and creaming bouncing up and down on big tankie cock, i was addicted and felt so fucking ashamed after i would cum, eventually i got prescribed antidepressants from my doctor and started socialising more and just being more productive in general i made friends with tankie guys and stopped being so bitter, eventually i realised that all those years i jerked my 3.7 inch caucasian-american pecker to tankie men breeding my xisters i was actually self inserting as the girl. I was the one who wanted BTC. im starting estradiol in december and i honestly finally feel like the person i was meant to be.

>>671418
>bakunin
>the uygha who wanted to rule the international with a shadow vanguard
do anarkiddies rlly

>>671422
quote is true and also funny

>>671334
fine, fuck Lenin too I don't care

I wonder if mahito anon is the same guy who was posting as sasuke anon two years ago

>>671338
>these
<one attention-starved uyghur
>>671418
I prefer the freedom stick to smack the unfree out of authoritarians, myself.

File: 1748506708040.jpg (44.63 KB, 735x738, mahito18.jpg)

>>671456
I am not Sasukeposter. Dunno who that one is. Maybe it's more than one anon, but I have only avatarfagged as Mahito.

>>671468
Who is this Mahito?
Is it that male anime cutie you're posting?

>>671477
>Who is this Mahito?
A homeless scientist living in the Tokyo sewer system, airing out his toes and giving people cancer with his experiments.
>Is it that male anime cutie you're posting?
Yes.

>>670020
>worker councils without a vanguard will always stagnate with economic demands
>will always
Proof?

>>670119
How are workers councils incompatible with any of what Engels said there?

>>670206
>>670209
>>670442
>>670448
>>670593
>>670604
>>670612
>>671376
China isn't communist! China isn't communist! China isn't communist! I'm only saying this because I know it will make you furiously angry.

>>670641
It's so strange seeing people who supposedly understand that history operates on material conditions first and ideas second use the same line of argumentation that liberals do to defend capitalism. Organized communism has existed for just over a century, please stop pretending that all attempts must be exactly like the first semi-successful one.

>>669870
No it makes you a real communist beyond marxoid/anarkiddie dichotomy. Left-communist to be precise not the fascism enjoyer bordiga type.


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