/siberia/ - Off-topic

the most simple example of musical progress is how the beatles and elvis were considered demonic influences on the youth, but are now conservative foundations of "real music". progress occurs at the margins of culture and become generalised.

People who think like this usually are just depressed miserable bastards who want beauty without the responsibility

Also "ugliness is art" has been a cliche thing for decades now.
Beauty is now pathologised as "fake" and "encouraging narcissistic tendencies".

>>681402
The conservatives of the time grew up on jazz and blues which were considered the devil's music back in the early twentieth century.

All hysteria over new generational forms of art is just butthurt adults coping with aging.
See how people are getting pissed off about Skibidi Toilet or TikTok shorts despite being an evolution of Vine, YoutTube Poops, and GMod videos?

>>681403
escaping the presentism of the age is in seeing historical perspectives of culture's "decline". greece's decline was the ascent of rome. the fall of the republic was the birth of the empire. the "collapse" of the roman empire was the rise of christendom. progress therefore occurs negatively in regards to its particulars, but positively in its perpetual process of transformation. beauty is also a static concept, divorced from eros. the beautiful and the desirable are opposite concepts, since the beautiful transcends matter rather than deepens its generative powers of sexuality. the beautiful becomes ugly in effect.
>>681404
its also class and race coded. rock n roll coming out of the blues can be traced to african americans and the pentecostal traditions of gospel worship. the hatred against jazz is obviously antisemitic also. african americans also pioneered disco and hip-hop, which became culturally tainted enterprises.

>>681405
Everything is relative. People think too unilaterally when it comes to "progress vs decline"

What's your take on George Bataille (Story of the Eye, Madame Edwarda, My Mother) and De Sade? Their works blur the line between pornography and art, the former being some kind of mystic, the latter some kind of psychopath.

>>681424
Marquis de Sade sounds like a precursor to Aliester Crowley.
I wouldn't be surprised if Crowley got inspiration from de Sade

The fairest monument which can be erected
the most astonishing of all statues
the finest and most audacious column
the arch which is like the very prism of the rain
are not worth the splendid and chaotic heap
which is easily produced with a church and some dynamite
Try it and see

>>681426
in terms of french libertines, crowley is openly inspired by charles baudelaire, who wrote "the flowers of evil". this is why crowley praises the "god of the poets" as satan, or the creative nothing (often expressed as terror, or horror in general). to link this to fascism, some say that the "first" horror film "the cabinet of dr caligari" led to a paranoid consciousness of "the other", as did all german expressionism. anton lavey (founder of the church of satan) cites german expressionism as the satanic aesthetic. michael aquino (founder of the temple of set and follower of lavey) is also fascinated by german aesthetics and has performed ceremonies in himmler's wewelsberg castle (where the emblem of the black sun is originally modeled). crowley in his own life also helped make nazi propaganda (as well as overtaking the german occult schools of the fraternitus saturni and ordo templi orientis). nazi satanism seems to be big today, doesnt it?
>>681424
whats interesting about bataille is that he had his secret society, and fantasised about performing a ritual murder, yet he never actually pursued it - he was repressed from the actualisation of his fantasy, and so created this category for which he could project himself into; into fiction, principally. in bataille's essay "literature and evil" (1957) he makes the same inference where it concerns emilh brontë and her novel "wuthering heights" (1847), wherein the chaste and lovely author had created a monster in the antagonist "heathcliffe", whom to bataille, is a directly satanic figure, who does not die a chaotic death, but simply fades away. he was scarcely corporeal, but existed as a supernatural force. this is why his spirit is conjoined to catherine's. what bataille failed to mention is that emily brontë herself suffered an identical demise; she simply whithered into nothing. here then, we see how the unconscious of the girl is projected directly into her character, who displays an opposed personality of emily's repressed fantasies. bataills's point is that the greatest filth often comes from the cleanest people. bataille in effect, is talking about himself.

de sade is another case, since he indeed did perform many of the rites of sodomy he described, but not in quite a notorious fashion as is commonly reported. his work indeed begins as pornography, but inverts into "sadism" (the word "sadism" literally comes from sade). in "120 days", the sex games become nightmarish mechanical functions of defacation and consumption. this plays into de sade's proto-darwinist ontology of life as reproduction, with sade's newtonian causality applied to pain and pleasure; one's pleasure is another's pain, including one's own. we can see then how the sadism of sex becomes the masochism of ritual. he explores this more politically in "philosophy in the bedroom" where he sees how crime itself should become the rule of law, so that there is an endless cycle of violence bringing order out of chaos. camus in his essay "the rebel" properly sees de sade as a proto-fascist in this sense, where the pursuit of pleasure becomes the systematic victimisation of others. i believe horkheimer and adorno also see the proto-fascism of de sade as the immanent irrationalism of the enlightemment project.

>>681441
you fuckhead, that is the stupidest thing you could have interpreted there

>>681443
no, its actually an educated elucidation, but do go on.

>>681426
>>681441
also, like hitler, crowley had a soft spot for animals (being repulsed by the killing of a frog in his mock ritual of the life of Christ, as he described in "Liber LXX"), yet he openly abused men, women and the disabled (and children, reportedly). so he was a misanthrope who projected his repressed empathy into speechless flesh.

>>681441
>michael aquino (founder of the temple of set and follower of lavey) is also fascinated by german aesthetics
That fool has been dead for 6 years now. Howard Levi ("Anton Lavey") was of jewish descent and ToS was a hard break from CoS as a specifically theisic Luciferian nazi org controlled by the literal glowfag Aquino

Sade and Bataille were comrades. Crowley was pretty based for a reactionary, he had a materialist approach to transcendental philosophy which was a lot more honest than the Theosophists and their ilk.

most art is shit actually, art is not just "thing i like"

>>681479
Most shit is art actually, and the more shit it is, the more it is art. Read Bataille

>>681482
why do people pretend bataille was a philosopher (he was better than that)

>>681485
I never said he was, fam. As we both know, people tend to put things in boxes when they don't really understand them. The real ones always exceed the dimensions of those boxes.

>>681478
>ToS was a hard break from CoS as a specifically theisic Luciferian nazi org controlled by the literal glowfag Aquino
that was only after the schism in the 70s. aquino wrote a supplement for the satanic bible called "the satanic rituals" which became part of ToS' internal "order of the trapezoid" with its 9 angles. david myatt of o9a has discussed this association, but says its not related. instead the o9a gets its name from the star game, invented in 1973 by myatt while he was in prison.
>Sade and Bataille were comrades
sade was nothing but an aristocratic libertine. what is comradely in his character?
>he had a materialist approach to transcendental philosophy
how? he believed in magic spells lol. he was a nietzschean, but not a materialist.
>>681479
yes, art is cultural defacation. it is supposed to stink. thats why artistic people are loathed, as i say.

dont forget that citizen kane was hated when it was originally released. how does the hated become loved? just give it time.

>>681490
>"order of the trapezoid" with its 9 angles
Ever notice it's the same symbol from Jodorowsky's "Holy Mountain"? Which came first? really I would like to know.
>sade was nothing but an aristocratic libertine.
This is as innocent as taking Machiavelli at face vale. Maybe you should actually read Sade, and understand that he writes in the tradition of Voltaire. Sade was the most important philosopher since Diogenes of Sinope.
>how? he believed in magic spells lol. he was a nietzschean, but not a materialist.
Crowley liked to fuck with and exploit "followers" with the sample religion he invented, while on the real laying out the material dynamics of "magick", being the crafting of a synthesis of philosophy, mysticism, and aesthetics for a specific goal, to people who know better.

>>681497
>Sade was the most important philosopher since Diogenes of Sinope.
this just reveals your immaturity. the problem of sade is that like diogenes, his rebellion is pathological, so is blunt yet ineffective. it falls into pornography, which upholds the status quo. dont forget that it was socrates who was actually put to death for corrupting the youth, like how Jesus was executed over barrabas.
>"magick", being the crafting of a synthesis of philosophy, mysticism, and aesthetics for a specific goal
yes, and? crowley played with demons and died a poverty-stricken junkie. a willful person does not fall into such temptation and turmoil, since they are self-possessed, not put under the will of another.

>>681499
This post reeks of occidentalist traditionalism.

>>681490
further reference for the number 9 is manly p. hall's "secret teachings of all ages" (1928), where he says:
>By this system, in which the digits are added together, 666 becomes 6 + 6 + 6 or 18, and this, in turn, becomes 1 + 8 or 9. According to Revelation, 144,000 are to be saved. This number becomes 1 + 4 + 4 + 0 + 0 + 0, which equals 9, thus proving that both the Beast of Babylon and the number of the saved refer to man himself, whose symbol is the number 9.
this relates to rosicrucian thought, where man himself is the fourth aspect of God (the fourth triangle amidst the trinity). this should not be shocking, for it is written:
>So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
<genesis 1:27
now, this is the first adam (adam kadmon) who is the first Christ and son of God, which is why he is androgynous (as he is in the book of revelation). in the hermetica, the son of God is described as the universe itself, so the 9 celestial spheres, further relating man to the number 9. man is the image of God, so God's first spiritual creation, yet man is said to the last creature summoned upon the earth, showing man to be alpha and omega. the satanic perversion of this is to take man as an end in himself in the respect of his passions, yet the sinful are slaves to vice, so have only chosen to worship a false god (an idol).
>>681500
are oriental traditionalists more impressed by such uninspired vice?

if filth for its own sake was revolutionary, we should be lead by the homeless, yet the homeless are slaves of their own luciferian madness, as eliphas levi would describe it. this is why art as the birth of the new breaks the repetition of stasis to enter us upon a new scene of culture.

>>681502
>revolutionary
nobody brought up this itt, it would be retarded to pretend art or even culture in general can be

>>681501
>are oriental traditionalists more impressed by such uninspired vice?
Of course they are! You should know better! Even the Dali fuckin Lama is LHP Gang

>>681506
LHP isnt shitting in the street. it can be part of your journey, but it cannot be an end in itself.
>>681505
art carries within itself the entire logic of revolution, as mediated transgression.

>>681508
>it can be part of your journey, but it cannot be an end in itself.
Agreed, and yet I sustain that it's naive to assume that Diogenes or Sade were operating on low "spiritual" levels. These assumptions are always based on hearsay.

>>681513
i find sade interesting, but i cant say i find him charming. the same for crowley. nero is also interesting in the same regard; sleeping with his mother, marrying a transgender wife, acting as a proto-furry in the bedroom. this doesnt make him comradely, "revolutionary" or whatever else. we shame obesity, but oggle at erotic perversity. i like sade's cyclical violence because it reveals the terminal structure of his own thinking; it is limited to a sadistic mechanism, but i cant say much more, because he himself has not much more to say imo.

in my view, pornography is anti-revolutionary. this is shown by fascist porn addiction. my view is that extremism often inverts into conformism (as baudrillard comments upon). punk is mainstream. i wish to find the core of radicality away from this, then. socrates is a good example, because he was killed for simply asking too many questions. his innocence was deadly to power.

>>681524
I could be wrong but again it sounds like you are reading Sade from the perspective of Deleuze or worse. The value of the comrade Sade of the Piques faction was not in his personal trnasgression, but the fact that he was exposing the hypocrisy of the contemporary establishment which justified its rule in the facade of morality. He exposed the hypocrisy without making any moral judgement because, long before Nietzsche, Stirner, or even Marx, the core of his philosophy was total rupture with moral ideology.

>>681526
you fuckhead, that is the stupidest thing you could have interpreted there

>>681508
>art carries within itself the entire logic of revolution
pb parasites when they need to say they are "doing something"

>>681399
>art is not about beauty
Depends on what you mean by "beauty" and what authority you are deriving that definition. I'd say that "art" is also highly generic and contextual; hence the "art" or war or the "art" of the deal

>>681539
*art of war

>>681526
>Porn is muh fascist

Porn is not anti or pro revolutionary.

>>681535
i understand the satirical element in sade. i find his humour dark and hilarious. i dont think he was a madman writing away into oblivion. but to me, his messaging is still entirely ineffective, since it is just a platform to assert one's own fantasy. you can never have "progressive" or "reactionary" pornography for the same reason. i dont know why you cant just be satisfied with the pleasure of pornography itself. i like porn too, but it has its place. i do not wish to confuse porn with art also.
>the core of his philosophy was total rupture with moral ideology
i dont think so. i think his morality was just a theoretical inversion. he wasnt "amoral", he was actively "immoral".
>>681539
by beauty i mean perfection, and so a de-libidinised representation. kant in his critique of judgement approaches this with sophistication; the beautiful is fundamentally unknowable in-itself - yet what we call the beautiful rejects the passions, which is why its "ideal". as i say in my OP, beauty is the immaterial, when art is progressive by entering the material.
>>681544
porn culture is fascist, not porn itself.

>>681538
This. People keep substituting real life intent for symbolic intent

>>681544
>>681545
Revolution implies abolition of the distinction between art and porn

>>681545
>kant in his critique of judgement approaches this with sophistication; the beautiful is fundamentally unknowable in-itself
I'll have to check out his critique of judgment after I'm done with COPR. I was under the impression that beauty is simply a ratio of order, symmetry, and contrast, which is a reasonable approximation to Perfection

>>681551
pornography is the marginal logic of art, yet it is simultaneously undone by this movement. to have pornography then, is to only abolish art. you cannot have both, except by suppressing one over the other. thats why art to me is "mediated" transgression - an immediate transgression is always pornographic. the issue with only having porn is that you no longer have prohibition, so longer have eroticism, and therefore a negative movement of progress. this is the paradox of the revolutionary however. they want to move forward, to a stillness at the end of history. this is why i say that art necessarily counters perfection, by invoking the kantian critique of judgement. pornography then, is a mirror of the sublime, but in reverse. it is deified ugliness, which defies conception

>>681557
you could define it that way, but by the same standards, a truly perfect object would be incongruous with our imperfect world, so would appear ugly, or at leasy undesirable. thats why we can only desire the imperfect, since in kantian terms, desire is a contingent phenomena, tied in with our subjectivity.