/siberia/ - Off-topic

freedom was always about the freedom of property, and the freedom to do whatever in that property, and by property it also included people, nd the freedom to have the power of life and death over their property (slaves, servants)
you hear some of these conservative boomers raging, about schools teaching them about gay they say the federal government cant tell me what to do with my property

in my experience(anecdotal I suppose so take it with a grain of not salt since thats a valuable commodity) the libertarian movement in the US is almost like two different movements existing in toxic codependence to produce results such as >>703375. the two camps are as follows:

>technofeudalist/neoliberal rich guys who are essentially fascists that have chosen rich people in general as there ingroup as opposed to the usual ethnic or religious group. Very big into Ayn Rand,effective altruism and other secular calvinisms meant to make them feel good. typically concentrated in large coastal cities and can include both national and international bourgeoisie. Often overtly pro-war,pro-intervention and globalist in outlook. Constantly trying to deregulate and defund shit needed for basic civilization like wastewater treatment,roads,sewage,the environment,etc. Have plenty of capital and connections but widely hated by general populace and small in number.


>ruralite of various class backgrounds but especially small landholders, petty boug, local gentry and the more high paying trades that are the only people who care about Jeffersonian democracy and having a republic of yeoman farmers and craftsmen. This includes the original contradictions of jefferson's time like having free white property owners living off the labor of enslaved,imprisoned and exploited that no one acknowledges or the whole "republic not democracy" shit you'll often here from this crowd. Prosperity gospel, born-again evangelical shit, sovereign citizens and all sorts of woowoo and spiritualty is prominent. Also fine with deregulation and defunding expect for public lands in some cases. Isolationist in outlook and anti-war until the war actual starts(very similar to socdems actually in this regard) Actually fairly popular especially in rural regions to the point of having there own militias but have little capital and connections on washington hill or big cities in general.

What we're left with is one relies on the other to actually have a mass base of popular support while the other gains access,funding and patronage. One example might be how the technofeudalist clique is actively at war with concept of public health wrt to shit like the CDC and NIH and how the ruralite clique can assist in this with constant influx of liverking ass antivaxxer bullshit. Another example might be the NRA essentially being the public face of the gun lobby while being heavily embedded in general populace of many small towns.

i guess because claiming to be anti-american government does not mean they aren't patriotic for it (so long it bothers foreigners not them) and they still love the ideas of free market and might make right, hence why saying fuck america or israel gets on their nerves

libertarian are just right-wingers whom instead of traditions and conservatism, they have more free ideas, they still like weed, drugs, guns, whoring, okay with gays for the most part,and degenerate hentai games (like gamergate back then) and doing a little crime (not molotov crimes, tax evasion) for the sake of edginess and self-preservation, they'll still support a war for profit so long it's not affecting them negatively, i have never seen a libertarian complain about ICE detentions who wasn't latino. my guess is libertarians want individualism above everything, but are still rightwingers so they'll still shit on leftists because their anti-americanism isn't the same

>>703377

even better explanation than mine >>703467

however you should have mentioned the second type of libertarians, the shooting tresspassers survivalist types still sometimes do things the first kind do.

sure they keep guns hidden for when shit hits the fan and the boogaloo rise up, but they still do techbro stuff, like investing in crypto or hiding gold in your basement until the government falls, being survivalist they still desire to be urban techno feudalist yuppies with their own companies and offshore accounts. it's contradictory but it make sense, why stay in a private property when your fantasy is to become john mcafee

the issue with libertarian ideas is that it confuses means for ends. the libertarian wants freedom to foster certain behaviour, and so freedom is just a means to an end, not an end in-itself. objectivists are the same way, with ayn rand giving selfishness the condition of "reason", meaning that those who are irrationally selfish do not deserve their liberty.

so if you are free, you are determined. this is quasi-kantian, where freedom is conceived as necessity, yet at least kant thought freedom is a choice to be moral, rather than the empirical prejudice of virtue as a "habit" (freedom to kant is an end in-itself, not a means to an end). libertarians want habitual people, not ethical people.

>>703472
the word freedom means just as much as the words 'civilization', 'democracy', 'justice' and other buzzwords that people overuse without any actual substance. they just feel good saying it without even knowing what it would fundamentally mean in a political context.

>>703481
and what does it mean to you?

>>703485
nothing, its too abstract. which is why i dont use them

>>703486
so what is your political concept concerned with?

>>703375
Fascism is close, but I think there's better words to describe it.

(Right) Libertarianism is, at its core, a manifestation of Aristocratic morality, or what Nietzsche described as "Master Morality". The idea is that human beings, in their natural state, exist within a hierarchy of inferiority to superiority; that those on the top are simply more worthy of society's spoils than those at the bottom, and that to help someone out of anything but self-interest is immoral, because it messes with the natural order. They don't believe in individual liberties for their own sake, they believe in individual liberties because it would, in their minds, create a "meritocratic" system where everyone ends up where they belong.