The only left-wing movement that has ever worked in history is Marxism-Leninism. The USSR went from being an almost medieval country to sending people into space in 40 years and making virtually the entire population literate. China had the largest increase in life expectancy ever recorded in history and was able to lay the foundations for becoming the world's largest economy.
What have other leftist movements achieved? Literally nothing, except creating division, economic failures, and impossible utopian societies that did not last.
>>709271OP is a fag
imagine having to "trvthnvke" yourself lmao
>>709278How does this somehow prove or suggest that what OP said isnt correct?
>>709279So? this doesnt mean it is a succesful experiment that should be used as an example
>>709280Its the complete opposite but whatever
I am an ML. I agree fully with your position but at the same time I must caution my comrades against dogmatism.
The established ML tactics have not worked in the west for at least the past 70 years. ML state building has led to fracturing of the communist block and the effective fall of communism as a global ideological force.
We must re-evaluate and re-test our strategies, and not merely mimic the Bolsheviks, the Chinese, or other groups in struggle at the moment like the Philippinos. Not only has ML orthodoxy not shown any real results in the past 40 some years in the imperial periphery (unless you think Dengism is marxism leninism, which is highly debatable, does not provide a strategy for people outside of china as it is not a praxis to come to revolution but a state building practice, and they do not undertake the world historic task of leading the global proletariat as the vanguard of the working class), but their tactics very explicitly are not crafted to work in the imperial core.
Many MLs, in real life and online, who shout loudly to "uphold marxism leninism" often do so not out of a real desire and drive to use the lessons of our tradition to build a new praxis for their specific situation, but do so as an appeal to accomplishments in order to not have to engage other ideas, defend their own ideas, test their own ideas, and take the effort to convince others.
The ML core lessons are being re-learned and re-discovered in praxis by new, young communists daily. Those who rejected Marxism Leninism slowly, through their own failures in praxis, re-create and then re-discover these core lessons. I think it is our role to both create new praxis from the rich history of our movement, while also, at each possible moment, guiding our new and less ideologically developed comrades in their daily praxis in such a way as to elevate their political conciousnes bit by bit in the direction of Marxism Leninism.
>>709287posted it again award
has no real refutation award
>>709293Step 1: Commodity Production
Step 2: Market Reform
Step 3: It wuz real socialism
>>709297Step 1: Complain about anti-imperialist experiments in the real world
Step 2: Never scape social democracy and vassalisation
Step 3: Delude yourself into thinking real socialism is having to correct words in your head
>>709298Dengism is not marxism leninism since a core tennant is to work towards de-commodification. You know. Since it's marxism.
Dengism is specific to China's historical context and it is yet to be seen if it truly is a 6d chess move by a multi generational ideological party dictatorship (which by now could have easily gone way more into the non market sphere) or just a ideological windowsdressing for a developmentalist clique of bureaucrats.
>>709300Step 1: Bourgeois natlib "anti-imperialism"
Step 2: "AES"
Step 3: Call others succdems
>>709305From Stalin, Economic Problems of Socialism in the USSR
>To describe Comrade Yaroshenko's opinion in a couple of words, it should be said that it is un-Marxist – and, hence, profoundly erroneous.
>Comrade Yaroshenko's chief error is that he forsakes the Marxist position on the question of the role of the productive forces and of the relations of production in the development of society, that he inordinately overrates the role of the productive forces, and just as inordinately underrates the role of the relations of production, and ends up by declaring that under socialism the relations of production are a component part of the productive forces.
>Comrade Yaroshenko is prepared to grant the relations of production a certain role under the conditions of "antagonistic class contradictions," inasmuch as there the relations of production "run counter to the development of the productive forces." But he confines it to a purely negative role, the role of a factor which retards the development of the productive forces, which fetters their development. Any other functions, positive functions, of the relations of production, Comrade Yaroshenko fails to see.Perhaps I can advice you to stop wasting your time talking about China on this website and start putting on audiobooks of Stalin et al?
>>709309I'm sure the poorest sectors of chinese society enjoy their current material reality way more than what they had 50 or 100 years ago and the overall nation feels safer from external threats.
>>709314MLsisters… I'm not feeling so good…
>>709310>>let me tell you how to do real socialism from my vassal state of a collapsing empire while your country can't stop catching Ws bro trust me I have more authority over marx bro The economic succes of China means nothing to me or other marxists if it does not translate into victories for the global working class movement. As of this moment, the most China has done with its world historic power (far outclassing the USSR) is pick up the slack in protecting Venezuela and Burkina Faso when Russia was unable to do so due to bleeding their economy on Ukraine. This protection by russia is undeniably out of self interest in countering the west as well as resource access, and China has to me not really shown in action to be the actual vanguard of the proletariat yet.
There is no funding of parties, there is no training of parties, there is no dissemination of communist ideology in the rest of the world by china, there is no development of an effective communist international spurred on by china. All the things the soviets AND THE CHINESE BEFORE DENG MIND YOU did no longer happens. They do not fulfill the tasks Stalin explained to us in his defence of Socialism in One Country, being the usage of the stabalized and strengthened socialist system as a springboard for the global communist movement.
If China started fullfilling this task again tomorrow, they will have proven that they were honest in their words. But given how many would be communists turned out to be traitors, I am not going to pause my political work in my own country against capitalism and against imperialism to wait for China to give the support and guidance they have not even promised yet.
>>709322>>China OWES vassal states of the empire that wants to destroy them gibsOh here it is again.
>If you demand the most powerfull proletarian class to aid the proletarians far more oppressed by the bourgoiesie in their collective war against the bourgoiesie, youre actually a problematic lazy white person.Here is my canned reply to your canned response:
—
To Dengists, the revolution is not international. To them, any request for help is being a welfare queen.
They don't want to provide training.
They don't want to provide analyses that can help other parties.
They don't want to spread their ideas.
They don't want to even spend a single rmb on helping out their comrades abroad.
And if you ask them to do so, because they claim they are the leaders of the global revolution.
They will call you lazy.
They will call you backstabbers.
They will call you not real communists.
They will call you feds.
They will call everything fake news.
They will twist and turn your words to weasel their way out of the simple fact that they do not want to help other communists, despite claiming to be the vanguard of the world, and at the same time demand undying loyalty back from those same communists.
>>709319wtf is this argument. Why is it China's responsibility to create revolution in your country? China's number one ambition as of now, what is frankly the much more important short-term development in the world, is the creation of a Multipolar global order. This requires cooperation with all sorts of global south governments, including Anti-Communist states. Why should they jeopardize the world-historic development that is the creation of a new global financial system just for some local party to run more doomed candidates
I mean, you do realize that that sort of extravagant spending literally led to disastrous spending for the USSR? The Soviets literally carried the decolonial struggle of an entire continent on their back, funding all of the African revolutionaries they could, and all they got were states entirely dependent on Soviet support. They literally got nothing out of all of that spending aside from the useless momentary "sympathy" of irrelevant, impoverished states. Cuba for example was nothing but a place for the Soviets to purchase sugar at a markup from the global price from. They literally had to subsidize all of these states, and trying to defend this moneyhole as was their "duty" led to the disastrous Cuban missile crisis. Why should China follow these footsteps? What benefit would that hold?
>>709323>>709302>>709321Notice, by the way, how I never even attacked Dengism as a theory or tactic in China. In all my responses, I left open the possibility that Dengism is actually what China claims it is, a long term plan for socialism in the future, to weather imperialism.
The only thing I said were two things
1. It is not a praxis to come to revolution, because it is a praxis on how to build socialism after the revolution, and as such it dengist theory is unusable for any communists living under a capitalist regime. This point is undeniable.
2. I merely put questionmarks on China's behaviour, expressing doubt as to the validity of the claims of China about their behaviour, citing core ML texts and concepts as to what a ML state ought to do when it has established itself, and illustrating that China does not do these things. Concluding merely that dengism is thus not Marxism Leninism, but something else, and never claiming it is proven betrayal of socialism.
Yet, the dengists immediately go for "where is your revolution huh?", even going as far as blaming the proletarians of the first world for living in the countries where the links of the chain are strongest for being born there, even calling them privileged for it. All that while the core point that created Leninism in the first place, reiterated by Stalin again and again, is that the chain of capitalism will break in its weakest link, in the periphery.
I ask dengists to engage with the ideas honestly. What praxis to get to revolution does Dengism offer the global communist movement? Do you posit that promoting revolution after the establishement of the state is not a core part of marxism leninism? Then what is a core part of it? It isnt unleashing the productive forces, as stalin explicitly wrote against it, as did lenin. If that is also not a core tennant, and all these core tennants are revised, why even call yourself a marxist leninist and not just a dengist for clarity? Is the only thing left between Stalin and Deng truly just democratic centralism and banning factions? Because by that logic Trotskytes are also marxist leninist.
>>709326> Why is it China's responsibility to create revolution in your country?Because that is one of the core ideas of Marxism Leninism. Have revolution, build a stale government and economy. Then use that as a springboard to spread communism globally.
This is the core point that I am trying to get you to understand. I am not attacking China's tactics, or calling them "undeniably capitalist roaders who will just sell out or have already sold out", I am stating that it is not a Marxist Leninist position to deny the responsibility of the socialist to strengthen the proletarian movement and communist revolution worldwide, once they have established and secured their own state.
I am not saying "china betrayed us", I am saying "this isnt marxism leninism".
>>709332>What does the weakening of the imperial grip on the third world offer the Communist movement? How does an anti-imperialist global financial system challenge the capitalist imperialist system? lmfaoHow does this instruct communists in the global south? What should they do. How should they organize?
>>709331>Harmonise and drag forwardI have no idea what this proverb means I do not keep up to date with all the Chinese slogans they keep pumping out each month. Please explain.
>>709333Can you at least admit that it is a very hard pill to swallow for communists outside of China when they are told to "trust the plan bro" when they have been backstabbed by supposed communists several times over again and again?
>>709340Trotsky proposed immediately going into war right after the revolution because he was convinced it was impossible to start resolving the contradictions of capitalism within just one country. Stalin explained in "Concerning Questions of Leninism" that there are many contradictions, primarily in economy, which can be solved within one country.
In fact, it seems that the current ideology of China rejects Stalins premise, in favour of the Orthomarxists, in claiming that no contradictions can be resolved yet.
>>709341>Do you also need your food to be guided to you as airplanes?I think a communist country of 1.4 billion people is better equipped to set up distribution of media and basic theory than a couple hundred Kenyan communists working underground while being constantly massacred. Perhaps if they actually went into contact with the parties on the ground the experience from on the ground work could be used to inform the theory being written so it becomes more effective too.
But hey, if this is true, then why are you reading Stalin, Lenin or Mao? Just figure it out yourself with just the 200 other retards in your country who all have to work 40 or more hours a week while being infected with liberal brainworms from their upbringing and being constantly bombarded with disinformation. Its working out do well over here, it totally doesn't result in a myriad of Trotskyist (counterevolutionaries) and anarchists and other idiotic cliques and sects.
>>709342Define Marxism Leninism Because if it included both Dengists and Xi thought people as well as anti-china Mao zedong thought communists, maybe we should just ditch this term altogether.
>>709346>What they offer is the end of american hegemony a.k.a the historic number 1 enemy of every revolutionary attemp in the third world. Is this not enough for you?No. Because before world war 2, and before world war 1, we also had multiple poles, and the existance of multiple capitalist powers did not make revolution much easier.
There were never successfull revolutions outside of the major powers (poles) before world war one, and only after world war one, when all major powers collapsed, did revolution start IN one of the weakest major powers.
After that, the soviet union was established, and it was directly because of a communist state being a major pole in the world that revolution was able to occur outside of the major powers. China was directly aided. Vietnam was directly aided. All of eastern europe was either directly aided or outright established after the soviets beat back the nazis.
So there is no real historic precedent to think that socialism will have an easier time in a multi polar capitalist world. This idea of multipolarity being favourable only really works if one of the poles is a communist country. So the argument to prove China is communists, so that we support China in their plan to re-shape global politics to be multipolar, so that communists supposedly have opportunities, requires pre-existing faith that China is indeed communists.
I fucking hope it is. I really do. But no, faith in China is not enough for me. My task as a communist is to build the movement where I live, and to take the developments in the world as they come and try to play the best moves. China does not provide a blueprint for me. Trusting the plan on faith alone is not enough for me, it is my task as a communist to actively work toward a better world, not to wait for it and passively cheer on some other country from behind my keyboard while I wait for the third worlders to save me.
>>709349Which contradictions are they solving?
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