Why is antinatalism not socialist? Is it moralistic?
Antinatalism isn't a political ideology 99.99999% of the time. It is more a personal preference or moral.
Anti-natalism is an SEO-ism, an empty term born from the depths of debate addiction.
95% of all self-proclaimed antinatalists are radlibs. They want humanity to go extinct - how is that compatible with socialism?
>>713828Antinatalism exists because under capitalism you basically have to justify your existence rather than just living naturally, like a hunter gatherer just lives his life according to his ability and need.
antinatalism is I think a reductive term that covers multiple ideas. some people call themselves an antinatalist because they don't want kids. ok that's fine. others are more "prescriptive." i.e. they think humans in general should stop having kids. others are even more than prescriptive. they not only think humans in general should stop having kids, but that humans should strive for voluntary self extinction, i.e. collective suicide. others think life in general is just awful, and it is better to not exist. The last category has no real plan how to prevent life from occurring. I remember two years ago talking to some of them on here, and one of them envisioned making a giant machine that goes from planet to planet nuking it to prevent life from emerging. They did not say how this machine would pilot itself, where it would get energy from. It was all very idealistic. We don't even control all the energy in our solar system.
I think life is sometimes amazing and worth living, and sometimes terrible and worth ending. I do not think it can be stated beyond your own self whether voluntary euthanasia is worth it. Everyone is at a different stage. But I also think it cannot be said whether life is "better" or "worse" than "not existing" because non existence has no qualities. You can only compare qualities which exist with each other. By definition you cannot experience the absence of experience, so you cannot say with any certainty that it's "better."
You might say "before I was born I didn't exist, after I die I won't exist." and that's true. But the "time" before you were born went by instantly for you. It was not a "long" period of non existence. To experience is to experience the passing of time, and when you do not exist, time doesn't pass for you. So you cannot "spend time" in nonexistence and you cannot "prefer" it to existence by "comparing" it because to prefer and compare requires experience through existence, and to experience non existence requires not existing. It's a paradox.
>>717583How is it not? Extinction of humanity is not something that could be left to individual whims or market forces, it is an overarching political goal that needs global command and control structures to achieve.
Antinatalism is neomalthusianism
Antinatalism is based except when it gets annoying which is often. I think most people shouldn't have kids and wouldn't if they were smarter and\or less desperate for companionship, connection or pussy\dick. If society were better structured then having children wouldn't be as problematic but I still think it wouldn't be worth it. But people will keep fucking and pro creating till the world blows up so there's not much I can do or care to do about it except to just not fuck.
I hate kids and I don't want anything to do with them. If that's not allowed under socialism you can just kill me right here because I ain't doing that shit.
>>717603>I hate kids and I don't want anything to do with them.how were you treated as a child? were you treated well? how did you treat others as a child?
>>717610Why does it have to include neon Nazism or doing anything for that matter?
Benatar is an idiot
>>717644Evidently it did not
>>717611It's just edgymaxxing
>>713828antinatalism is moralist drivel because it tries to turn individual moral failings (a direct result of this wonderful mode of production we live in) and universalizes that feeling into a metaphysical claim. This is, ofc, a false elevation of a material symptom into a cosmic principle. The suffering antinatalism points to is not some eternal condition of existence, but a reflection of life under specific historical circumstances.
>>717601Bourg-brained nonsense. Your "just dont fuck" antinatalism is cute on a personal level, but it ignores, nor puts in a dent the machinery that forces billions of people to reproduce and toil so you can abstain without consequence.
>keep fucking and pro creating till the world blows up so there's not much I can do or care to do about it except to just not fuck.
>I think most people shouldn't have kids and wouldn't if they were smarter and\or less desperate for companionship, connection or pussy\dickYou assume reproduction is a matter of individual intelligence rather than a structural function. People dont have children because theyre "stupid" or "desperate", they have them because their material reality pushes them to have them. In the 1st world, child rearing is optional, aside from a purely strategical choice and tends to fall either to bourgs, who have the time, resources and cultural stability to treat children as extensions of legacy or to lower classes/lumpen - who also have enough time - for whom reproduction often subtitutes for other forms of continuity, identity or meaning. The middle class exists as a buffer between the two, and they have children to reproduce the managerial order. For them, the family isnt a unit of affection or biology but a deliberate mechanism for transmitting skills, education, ideological conformity to ensure the social and bureaucratic machinery continues functioning.
The 3rd world by contrast, is compelled to reproduce - its rarely a moral or purely personal choice. Families rely on the overproduction of children for labor, security and the contiuation of local survival strategies, within economies shaped by poverty, weak social safety nets and historical patterns of exploitation. This overproduction doesnt just "float in the world", but is dialectically linked to the first world. Massive reproduction in the periphery guarantees a steady supply of labor, resources and consumers that sustain the global economy. In essence, the relative luxury of optional reproduction in the First World depends on the systemic reproduction of populations elsewhere, which automates both labor supply and economic surplus for the global core. Why the do you think there's literally millions of precarious Indians taking on jobs for much less pay than their Western counterparts? Why do you think factories in Bangladesh or call centers in the Philippines exist, staffed by people working twelve-hour days for pennies while the First World complains about muh labor shortages and imports workers en masse? I tell you fucking why, because the entire global system is rigged to extract surplus from the periphery so crakkkers like you in the first world can sit back and treat reproduction as optional.
>>717669Either way it's cool that I'm not forced to breed or whatever. Not that there was any danger in that happening anyways
>>717644its interesting how really young zoomers who shoot up their schools seem to idolize him more than the columbine kids at this point, i guess it makes sense because it became less exceptional to live like he did after covid while all the mythologizing around columbine spoke more to the experience of troubled or mentally ill millennials in hs
>>717683When you compare Adam Lanza to the Columbine shooters they come off as complete normies. Maybe people became weirder over the subsequent years and has continued to this day. Or it could mean that literally anybody can become an unhinged mass killer.
>>713833>It is more a personal preference or moral.This. Obviously having children is a personal decision between two individuals or for one woman with artificial insemination or potentially for one or more man with a surrogate. Debating whether or not people should have kids or not is like debating whether they should be gay or not. I think most of the people who discuss birth rates fall into the category which would debate whether should be gay or not, but shame on the people who are past that one level of fascism and then turn around and think they have license to employ the same kind of fascist thinking elsewhere.
>>717685>Or it could mean that literally anybody can become an unhinged mass killer.Aside from postal killings, which are more akin to the slave revolts that just involved directionless wanton violence, most people usually see the warning signs at some point. Klebold and harris threatened people got in legal trouble for breaking into a van and were generally regarded as bad seeds by some of the adults in their lives. There was some revisionism in response to trenchcoat mafia hysteria that tried to claim they were actually popular bullies who girls loved but I think the truth is while they did try to intimidate/bully others they were regarded as outcasts who were ignored or picked on by everyone outside their circle. I can't think of any case where a seemingly normal person just decided to pick up a gun one day and start blasting. The reporting on the NIU shooting in 2008 made it seem this way as he was older than most of these kids and had successful relationships and a generally good experience in college but it eventually became clear he was also a "bad seed" in high school, had struggles with suicide, and flirted with what was the radical right of the time (i.e. militia stuff). This isn't even talking about the many cases where they explicitly said they were gonna do it but no one did anything.
Maybe you're right about people becoming weirder though, because I can imagine klebold and harris posting about TND and shitty sonnenrad edits if they were born in like 2009.
>>717603you are most likely not safe around them anyways
>>713828Socialism is pro-humanity.
You don't have to be in favor of increased birth rates, but saying that giving birth is wrong period is against socialism.
I don't know why you would support a socialist system if you want humanity to be wiped out. Genuinely accelerationist capitalism would be more your speed.
>>717601>>717603>>717675Thank you for your response, kind strangers. The 50K gold points await you at r/antinatalism. Go there and collect it.
Antinatals are largely Reddit manbabies who are mad that society spends resources on le crotchfruits and not on unemployed childfree hentai and Labubu addicts (the only actually productive demographic) and white bougie libs who think the "useless eaters" around them need to die so that the libs bask in abundance. Also a lot are incels who went one step further.
>>717993t. regretful breeder trying to rationalize their mistake
>>717669>The suffering antinatalism points to is not some eternal condition of existence, but a reflection of life under specific historical circumstances. The circumstance in question being "evolved a neural system".
>>713828Its extremely vibes based idpol but also a self-defeating ideology where everyone just dies literally.
>>718012This. Literally just a watered-down version of nihilism.
>>717994You don't have to be a parent to see what a retarded and miserable philosophy antinatalism is.
>>717610>>717631Is the logo supposed to be a shitty drawing of him or is it just a coincidence?
>>718012>idpolExplain what identity group.
>>718012Claiming that ideologies are passed down by genes is a fascist position.
>>718075Antinatalists don't want people to die. They are against them being born.
>>718078Parts of the anti-natalist movement very much want people to die. Some of them want humanity to become extinct and actively try and help that along.
And those that dont, their still fucking idiots who want to control people's will for their own, usually stupid petty reasons.
>>718081Family planning is pro-natalist you fucking dunce.
Will billions die soon or not?
>>718079I was about to say that would probably just be the twitter part, but anti-natal-ism is pretty much a twitter exclusive ideology to begin with.
>>718083the one-child policy itself is an example of an antinatalist policy, designed to reduce birth rates in the country (with exceptions for citizens of non-Han Chinese ancestry)
an example of a pro-natalist policy (to inflate birth rates) from AES would be Decree 770 (Socialist Republic of Romania)
>Abortion and contraception were declared illegal, except for:>women over 45 (later lowered to 40, then raised again to 45)>women who had already borne four children (later raised to five)>women whose life would be threatened by carrying to term, due to medical complications>women who were pregnant through rape and/or incest
>Between 1966 and 1967 the number of births almost doubled, and the estimated total fertility rate (TFR) increased from 1.9 to 3.7. The generation born in 1967 and 1968 was the largest in Romanian history. <As the children got older, their needs were not properly met. There were cases where lectures were shortened to enable three school shifts. In schools, a student–teacher ratio of over 40 children per class became frequent.<In the 1970s, birth rates declined again. Economic pressure on families remained, and people began to seek ways to circumvent the decree. Wealthier women were able to obtain contraceptives illegally or to bribe doctors to give diagnoses which made abortion possible. Especially among the less educated and poorer women there were many unwanted pregnancies. These women could only use primitive methods of abortion, which led to infection, sterility, or even their own death. <The mortality among pregnant women became the highest in Europe during the reign of Ceaușescu. >>718079>anti-natalist movement????? Do you mean a reddit forum? Be real.
The constant criticism against antinatalism is ironic.
These same people who are against antinatalism have no problem with genocide or physical punishment for slight offense from juveniles.
These same people are ironically just as misanthropic if not more so because they view humans as pawns for the next stage of their game.
People who are against anti Natalism view childrens suffering as an unfortunate but tolerable side effect of “progress”.
They whine about poverty of the masses but do not want to stop the reproductive cycle that adds to it.
>>717733Yet a lot of you self proclaimed leftists actively shout out support for accelerationism when ever your favorite leftist ideas are rejected by the liberal elite.
>>718107>These same people who are against antinatalism have no problem with genocidei would argue these same people would support actual antinatalist policies or more rigid forms of birth control but only for the populations they would be happy eradicating entirely
the reactionary "white genocide" conspiracy theory is somewhat related to this, a common unironic argument in "confirmation" of its existence is white
voluntary abortion and whites
voluntarily using birth control. somehow this amounts to literal genocide for the chud
>ethics =/= morality
>ethical position =/= moralism
>>713828>Why is antinatalism not socialist?It critiques the political economy of pro-natalist capitalist family structures, literally every religion that brainwashes everyone from birth. There's reason why all the degenerate neoliberals like Elon Musk and RFK Jr are obsessed with people having more kids
>>717583>radlibs. They want humanity <"humanity"you are the one with zero class consciousness, you even talk like an Elon Musk NPC
>>717597>neomalthusianismIf you're a Jane Fonda neoliberal who thinks 'there's too many Africans' sure. Lenin explicitly condemned the petite bourgeois mindset of "our world is so cruel, I'm too sad to bring any kids into it":
https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1913/jun/29.htm<He protests as the representative of a class that is hopelessly perishing, that despairs of its future, that is depressed and cowardly. There is nothing to be done … if only there were fewer children to suffer our torments and hard toil, our poverty and our humiliation—such is the cry of the petty bourgeois.<The class-conscious worker is far from holding this point of view. He will not allow his consciousness to be dulled by such cries no matter how sincere and heartfelt they may be. Yes, we workers and the mass of small proprietors lead a life that is filled with unbearable oppression and suffering. Things are harder for our generation than they were for our fathers. But in one respect we are luckier than our fathers. We have begun to learn and are rapidly learning to fight—and to fight not as individuals, as the best of our fathers fought, not for the slogans of bourgeois speechifiers that are alien to us in spirit, but for our slogans, the slogans of our class. We are fighting better than our fathers did. Our children will fight better than we do, and they will be victorious.<The working class is not perishing, it is growing, becoming stronger, gaining courage, consolidating itself, educating itself and becoming steeled in battle. We are pessimists as far as serfdom, capitalism and petty, production are concerned, but we are ardent optimists in what concerns the working-class movement and its aims. We are already laying the foundation of a new edifice and our children will complete its construction.<That is the reason—the only reason—why we are unconditionally the enemies of neomalthusianism, suited only to unfeeling and egotistic petty-bourgeois couples, who whisper in scared voices: “God grant we manage somehow by our selves. So much the better if we have no children.”<It goes without saying that this does not by any means prevent us from demanding the unconditional annulment of all laws against abortions or against the distribution of medical literature on contraceptive measures, etc. Such laws are nothing but the hypocrisy of the ruling classes. These laws do not heal the ulcers of capitalism, they merely turn them into malignant ulcers that are especially painful for the oppressed masses. Freedom for medical propaganda and the protection of the elementary democratic rights of citizens, men and women, are one thing. The social theory of neomalthusianism is quite another. Class-conscious workers will always conduct the most ruthless struggle against attempts to impose that reactionary and cowardly theory on the most progressive and strongest class in modern society, the class that is the best prepared for great changes. Treatler tier ideology. 99% of antinatalists are mad that they aren't getting more treats. Only instead of crying about women, gays and minorities, they seethe about men, straights and mayos.
ON THE ANTI-LIFE AGENDA: Smashing the Anti-Natalist Death Cult
By Chairman Caleb Maupin
Founder & Chief Executive, Center for Political Innovation
There is a sickness spreading through the decaying West, a poison more destructive than any economic crisis. It is the ideology of anti-natalism—the conscious, spiteful rejection of life, of the future, and of humanity itself. This is not some harmless eccentricity; it is a terminal symptom of a bourgeois class in its final, putrefying stage, and it is everything the working class must violently reject.
The great V.I. Lenin himself correctly identified this tendency as petit-bourgeois degeneracy of the most pathetic kind. He saw it in the privileged layers of society who, consumed by cynicism and selfishness, would rather purchase a small, yapping toy dog than raise a family. They push these animals in prams, dressing them in ridiculous costumes and feeding them boutique treats—treats processed from the sweat and blood of the Third World, in factories where real men and women are beaten by gangsters to satisfy the perverted whims of the Western "elite."
This is the ultimate expression of the vagino-cratic mindset. It is passive, lunar, circular, and ultimately nihilistic. It is an energy of surrender, of accepting decay, of believing the lie that there is no hope, that it is "too late," and that the only moral choice is to retreat into a sterile, childless existence and quietly wait for the end.
We must condemn this sickness in the strongest possible terms. It is a direct attack on the proletariat. The ruling class promotes anti-natalism because a working class that does not reproduce is a working class that has no future to fight for. It is the most insidious form of class war, designed to convince us to voluntarily surrender before the battle is even joined.
There is only one solution: The Working Class must embrace a PHALLIC CONSCIOUSNESS.
We must cultivate a mindset that is:
VIGOROUS in its defense of our families and our future.
THRUSTING in its pursuit of progress and technological development.
ERECT and unyielding in its opposition to the class enemy.
UPRIGHT and sovereign, refusing to kneel, bow, or apologize for our existence.
The phallic principle is one of generation, construction, and life. It is the energy that built civilizations, that conquers nature, and that thrusts relentlessly into the future. It is the antithesis of the passive, lunar, "feminine" energy of surrender celebrated by the Malthusians and the globalist death-cult.
Do not listen to their lies. The future is not hopeless. It is not too late. It is waiting to be built, to be won, to be generated by the hands and minds of a working class that believes in itself and its own generative power.
Say NO to the anti-natalists. Say NO to the vagino-cratic mindset. Say NO to the lunar death-cult.
Embrace the Phallic Mindset. Have children. Build families. Fight for the future.
Forward with Unstoppable, Generative Force!
Chairman Caleb Maupin
Center for Political Innovation
INNOVATE OR PERISH
>>718224>It critiques the political economy of pro-natalist capitalist family structuresIt really doesn't, it moralizes against life instead of analyzing the historical and class basis of family structures.
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