Since US tech embargo on China is still in effect and US plans to squeeze Chinese tech companies by restricting their access to computer chips. China's reaction to this was to make one of their goals to have a home-grown alternative for Intel, AMD, TSMC and the like to decrease dependence on the US. So I was wondering what kind of progress have they been making lately and what are their prospects of ever having a viable alternative to Intel and AMD?
There is all this talk about SMIC, Loongson and Zhaoxin and that in early 2020 Zhaoxin allegedly published a chip comparable to 2017 level intel and AMD tech and they are planning to have parity with Intel in a few years. Then there are Some sources are saying that China is failing horribly at acquiring manufacturing tech for more advanced processors. And I really can't make any real sense out of it.
So when will I be able to buy a computer that uses a hardware that dunks on burger made tech and sends my personal data to Beijing instead of Washington, if ever?
65 posts and 9 image replies omitted.>>15971this is both an old article (2022) and a nothingburger.
this is the limit of the DUV technology, the fact that china managed to do this is impressive but without newer machines they cant get beyond 7nmn. Meanwhile TSMC, Intel, etc. will be getting into the angstrom era.
https://www.pcgamer.com/intel-puts-tsmc-on-notice-with-step-towards-angstrom-era-chips/see this article from 2 weeks ago.
>Intel says it has completed development of its upcoming 20A and 18A chip production processes. The first chips built on the first of these new nodes—the 20A node—will be made in the first half of next year.20 angstrom is 2nm. I.E. non chinese companies are already using EUV lithography to make 2 and 1.8 nm nodes.
>>18528>Previous reports have indicated that Loongson's 3A6000 processor will allegedly provide performance that is on par with AMD's Ryzen 5000 CPUs and Intel's 11th-Gen Core CPUs, which both debuted in 2020.yes and later this year intel will be making chips that are far faster and smaller than what they did before.
>>18850are there any obvious advantages or use cases? beside like EMP resistance and audiophile applications?
>>18858huh so is intel finally going to stop making dogshit ovens?
>>18861…theres sanctions on china?
Isnt there the blaringly obvious issue of support for these Chinese chip architectures? Would they actually be supported or will they be ignored?
>>18859They're faster than transistors
>>18861>poached Taiwan engineers once that speed bumb has been surpassed.for the last time, the taiwan/TSMC engineers USE lithography equipment, producing chips using that equipment vs engineering the equipment to begin with are totally different fields!
>>18866>USE lithography equipment, producing chips using that equipment vs engineering the equipment to begin with are totally different fields!how2 diy?
>>18863yeah it will be problem if they aim towards like towards consumer GPU's for PCs since they basically need to construct new APIs and have to get software devs to support them to compete. Won't be as big of a problem if they aim towards tailor made solutions, internal market or make like phone SoCs that they can more easily control and already have open source software.
>>18867bro shit is along the lines of proprietary tech made with cutting edge applied physics you don't just "DIY"
>>18901You realize they're not reliable, easy to make, affordable or usable in good yields?
Its nice that we have people learning the ways, but it won't replace how many decades from this we are now.
>>10378would have to be some kind of special X-Ray microscope or regular electron microscope, both of which are likely to damage whatever they scan, and then still it'd only be practical to check small parts at a time, unless some kind of algorithmic solution is used.
>>15893oop, guess I'm too late
Open Source tastes best when forced anyways
>>20127forced? no, no, this is just a
special libre update >>15893holy BASED
when will we have home-bootstrappable low tech CPUs to cascade in like 5 cycles of re-etching upwards into formally verified FOSS CPUs? 50 years?
>>21476This, coupled with what seems to be Huawei's superior android app compiler than can increase performance by more than 30%, Huawei is in a great position.
https://www.xda-developers.com/huawei-ark-compiler-android-app-performance/Not sure how common this Ark compiler is and it doesn't necessarily work with google play store downloaded apps, unfortunately. Other than that, I might get a huawei as my next phone. I got the cheapest compatible pixel phone and installed grapheneOS. It's not too bad but I do wonder how effective it is.
>>21476FYI best that intel now has in raptor lake is around 7nm process in raptor lake. AMD has TSMC 5nm equivalent in 7000 series. Not that those nm counts are really accurate for real comparison.
>>21477I can't find this compiler. This is the only thing I have found, but it is described as an AOT compiler for JavaScript and TypeScript:
https://gitee.com/openharmony/docs/blob/master/en/readme/ARK-Runtime-Subsystem.md >>10249there's a cool project under development that's basically a combination of a CPU and GPU (which is useful because mobile GPUs are proprietary as hell)
https://libre-soc.org/ >>22770>cool project under development that's basically a combination of a CPU and GPUWhy not just say SOC? It literally is that.
>>22787it's different than that, normal SOCs have multiple devices side by side in the same package, this is literally a CPU that you can run GPU calculations on. it's implemented through the instruction set instead of device drivers and MMIO
RISC laptop* incoming for $300. The end of history is over anons.
https://www.cnx-software.com/2024/04/30/muse-book-laptop-spacemit-k1-octa-core-risc-v-ai-processor-16gb-ram/*with decent specs, screen and connectivity
>>25345Arm is RISC, it's even in the name.
it's really scary that this arcane tech is held exclusively by three corporations and also that most of the global production of this technology is concentrated in taiwan. isn't the fact of cpu designs that they're bootstrapped a million times? and that because of it no engineer knows why or how any cpu design works?
>>25345They buried the lede on this device. It has a RVA22 CPU with RVV (Vector) 1.0.
Finally, we're seeing devices with the important batch of extensions ratified December 2021.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40314731 >>25345This is sick, how can I ship this to the states?
>>25345Will it run Qubes OS?
>>25345>>25367But does it respect your freedom? These are basically chromebook specs with slightly worse battery life.
>>10237Lainchan is better than most chans but the users seem a little sus to me
Is there any significant advances in Chinese tech working to make a desktop OS to compete with Windows or Mac? Can't wait to run a fully anti 5 eyes device.
>>25381Why do you think it was posted, anon? Why would somebody post a laptop with those specs?
>>25599Chinese SoCs are notorious for not running mainline Linux and having weird proprietary drivers.
>>25347ARM and Risc-V architectures are both Risc, but ARM is not Risc-V nor are they compatible.
>>25421>>25345Framework also has RISC-V (dev) mainboard coming to their laptops. It's all Chinese I believe.
Does China actually need to outperform in silicon manufacturing to become dominant in the market - or would that even suffice? Sure their goals are to catch up in terms of the last little bit of advanced manufacturing (really R&D rather than manufacturing, some of this still done exclusively in the US) they're lacking, but couldn't they just manufacture RISC-V CPUs that were nearly as performant (without fees to ISA).
More to the point there's a reason that ARM still doesn't have much influence outside of mobile Mac, and Chromebooks. They run Kylin Linux in the public sector (and much of the private sectory) of China; but much western software and Chinese private sector wouldn't necessarily be portable to a new Chinese ISA. They seem to plan to migrate the whole country to Linux, but that doesn't help with exports.
>>26010the j20 uses windows xp
>>26012Is the argument that the Chinese doesn't actually even need to catch up in terms of R&D, that "Made in China 2025", and China's 14th five-year plan has already been a success?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Made_in_China_2025#Funding_and_evaluation >>26012>>26014Or even better the "Fourth Industrial Revolution" is actually the second "Starwars", and coming "Third AI Winter". Side with the least comprehensive and effective government investment wins because the objectives are of dubious utility.
>>26015>Or even better the "Fourth Industrial Revolution" is actually the second "Starwars", and coming "Third AI Winter".Think now this mostly can't be the case. If cost of automating services like tellers or cashiers, and logistics industries (of course logistics came to mind even before) drops to the point where these things could be reasonably automated it would have a significant impact. The odd thing to me is that these could largely already be automated by simple web-apps or button panels and scanners, or in the case of logistics by train yards. Is natural language processing, or sophisticated image recognition really necessary for such automation - or more compellingly, would they be sufficient for such a realization? Capital simply systematically undervalues labor and so such an automation has only been partial; and it may be that reducing the cost of implementing these services would be such that it could cause radical shifts in industry. In some industries, like logistics, this is nearly a guarantee
maybe starting 2027 it looks like.
Is StarFive (
https://www.starfivetech.com/en/site/company) really Chinese or no? If they count then might they already have a cool Chinese RISC-V:
https://milkv.io/mars#buy (Shenzhen MilkV Technology Co., Ltd (Milk-V)) can take a SATA SSD with an adapter which was always an issue with older SBC.
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