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/tech/ - Technology

"Technology reveals the active relation of man to nature"
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File: 1626469487974.jpg (286.54 KB, 770x484, Zhaoxin_SoC.jpg)

 No.10230

Since US tech embargo on China is still in effect and US plans to squeeze Chinese tech companies by restricting their access to computer chips. China's reaction to this was to make one of their goals to have a home-grown alternative for Intel, AMD, TSMC and the like to decrease dependence on the US. So I was wondering what kind of progress have they been making lately and what are their prospects of ever having a viable alternative to Intel and AMD?

There is all this talk about SMIC, Loongson and Zhaoxin and that in early 2020 Zhaoxin allegedly published a chip comparable to 2017 level intel and AMD tech and they are planning to have parity with Intel in a few years. Then there are Some sources are saying that China is failing horribly at acquiring manufacturing tech for more advanced processors. And I really can't make any real sense out of it.

So when will I be able to buy a computer that uses a hardware that dunks on burger made tech and sends my personal data to Beijing instead of Washington, if ever?

 No.10231

They could always just take back Taiwan…

 No.10233


 No.10234

>>10230
>Then there are Some sources are saying that China is failing horribly at acquiring manufacturing tech for more advanced processors. And I really can't make any real sense out of it.
This is true, China is getting cockblocked from buying any advanced chip manufacturing machinery. Which is why they will need to produce their own machines instead. Don't expect any chips on par with AMD or Intel until you hear about Chinese home-grown chip manufacturing machines reaching parity with ASML.

 No.10237

>>10233
Lainchan is pretty good too, but wouldn't you like to discuss things with your leftypol pals too, anon?

 No.10245

>>10233
It's interesting that both Russia and China are jumping on the RISC-V train. I don't know if US sanctions and risk of sanctions will end up killing the US tech dominance in the global market. Just like US stopping countries from using the dollar makes more and more countries look for alternatives forms of conducting global trade.

 No.10248

>>10245
RISC-V allows for tailoring chip design, it gets more application specific performance for any given chip, that is particularly interesting for budget application, where you can switch to a lower tier chip production with this method without loosing relevant performance. Russia and China are more "cost sensitive", that's why they are early adopters.

 No.10249

>>10248
what about OpenPOWER

 No.10254

>>10234
How hard will it be for China to acquire the expertise, tech and build a manufacturing base for more advanced chips to catch up and keep up with the rest of the world?

 No.10268

>>10249
>what about OpenPOWER
anybody know anything more about this ?

>>10254
>How hard will it be for China to acquire the expertise, tech and build a manufacturing base for more advanced chips to catch up and keep up with the rest of the world?
The important bottleneck in chip making is the lithography machines. The tech leader is ASML, that's a company in the Netherlands that is blocked by the US from selling to China.

(For the next paragraph smaller number = better)
China has made it's own lithography machines company and that one is called SMEE, they have machines in place for 28nm mass production at the moment, and they are working on getting mass production roll out of 14nm next year. The chip maker in Taiwan TSMC who is allowed to have ASML lithography gear is currently doing 7nm mass production and they are working on getting 3nm in to production at some time in the future.

China is behind 3 generations for the high end chips, but over100nm chips are still used in many applications. For chips that don't need that much performance they are already set. The small numbers in nm are most critical for portable devices because it means less battery drain and heat.
From the synthetic spec numbers it seems that China is catching up, how the realworld processing performance is stacking up, i don't know.

The US primary strategic goal of chip asfixiation has failed, china can self supply their strategic needs for chips. The secondary objective is commercial, they are trying to make Chinese products less competitive. That has had some effect but China is still able to source high end chips. And the US can't push too hard because China could cut the US off from TSMC. and the US is only now beginning to build out their own chip self sufficiency with new chip factories.

I guess that we should root for every side that is building out chip production because that means the chip supply gets better. This post was typed on a computer that's using 32nm chips (if i'm not mistaken)

 No.10269

>>10254
It can be easy, just attract the talent and allow them to become part of Chinese society with minimal hurdles. People will come. But we all know nationalist countries will never work that way lmao, so likely it will take a long time and they will be outcompeted by other societies who do a better job of attracting people.

 No.10278

>>10269
They don't have to "attract the talent" (although they've been doing a lot of poaching engineers from Taiwan lately). They have 1.4 billion people and their math education is generally better than the Americans'.

 No.10301

>>10249
>what about OpenPOWER
You can buy these already, it's a evolution of the type of processors that used to be in Macintosh computers.
For example a Power9 based blackbird desktop computer from raptor is the closest thing to a fully open hardware that is actually usable as a powerful PC. You have to go through a lot of hoops to set it up correctly but you also do get a lot of security benefits. Compared to RISC V this is a lot more mature and has more processing horsepower.

If you have the money and necessary technical inclination for the set up process, it comes highly recommended.

 No.10333

>>10268
thanks for the informative post anon

 No.10337

Suppose a company makes OpenPOWER or RISC-V chips. Is there any way we can verify that the manufacturer actually made the chips according to the published plans? Could they still insert backdoors that we can't find?

 No.10339

>>10337
> Is there any way we can verify that the manufacturer actually made the chips according to the published plans?
No.
> Could they still insert backdoors that we can't find?
Yes.

 No.10350

>>10278
Oh ok. Should be no problem to come up with better chip designs soon then 👍

 No.10351

>>10350
This issue is not chip design but instead, the production of chip manufacturing machinery.

 No.10365

>>10337
>Is there any way we can verify that the manufacturer actually made the chips according to the published plans? Could they still insert backdoors that we can't find?
You can take the official chip plans and scramble the design, that "encrypts" the hardware level so that you need special encoded binaries for software to run, it also makes inserting a hardware backdoor impractical because the backdoor circuits would only see scrambled signals. So it's possible to design around an untrustworthy hardware maker, even if technically you can't verify the contents of a chip. You will however need to compile every software from source to install it, with a special -scrambler compiler flag.

 No.10378

>>10365
That sounds interesting, do you have more resources to learn about it?

>>10337
What about a microscope?

 No.10871

File: 1630098628113.gif (1.37 MB, 430x360, what_am_i_reading.gif)

> The Semiconductor Heist Of The Century | Arm China Has Gone Completely Rogue, Operating As An Independent Company With Inhouse IP/R&D
https://semianalysis.substack.com/p/the-semiconductor-heist-of-the-century

 No.10899

>>10871
Probably wise. It was most likely only a matter of time when US was going to pressure ARM to ditch China. That could have hurt Chinese firms even more, especially if they were unprepared since future of processors is most likely ARM/Risc-V and not so much burger X86. Now They at least got this much, even if it means no access to future mainline ARM designs, but they can probably make something comparable by themselves in the future.

 No.10902

>>10899
>It was most likely only a matter of time when US was going to pressure ARM to ditch China.
How could that happen? They can't control what Arm does outside the USA.

 No.10908

>>10902
Nvidia is in the process of buying ARM, that's how. Even if the the regulators cancel the deal, that still doesn't change the fact that ARM holdings headquarters are located in Cambridge England and if US wants to sanction China the well know US vassal state of Britbongland will most likely follow the lead of it's sugar daddy, even if it isn't under the direct jurisdiction of the US government.

https://nvidianews.nvidia.com/news/nvidia-to-acquire-arm-for-40-billion-creating-worlds-premier-computing-company-for-the-age-of-ai

 No.10909

>>10908
China can veto the acquisition, and even if it goes through, American export regulations only applies to products that have been developed in the USA. Unless Nvidia plans to move the full company to the USA, it is unlikely to change the current situation.

Arm continued to work with Huawei despite Trump fucking with them, so I don't think your concerns are well founded.

 No.10969

>>10871
https://www.theregister.com/2021/09/02/arm_china_response/
Arm denies it, either this is damage control or the other article is anti-Chinese propaganda.

 No.10973

>>10899
>since future of processors is most likely ARM/Risc-V and not so much burger X86
What really is the advantage of ARM over good ol' x86 anyway? I seem to recall that it was actually easier to install glowie shit into these chips.

 No.11008

>>10973
Since x86 is Intel and most processors use it are American it is most likely that every processor that follows that instruction set is glowie straight out of the box.

 No.11009

>>10973
ARM is just scaling better and is a "cleaner" architecture, its clearly the future

 No.11031

>>10973
Arm more processing / power
X86 more processing / money
Although that distinction is slowly shrinking

What is putting Arm on the future map is that RiscV is very modular, processors can be tailored for their intended workload very easily and that will come with massive speed increases.

X86 isn't going to die anytime soon it's probably has got at least 20 years left.

>>11008
In my opinion people are not looking at processor backdoors rationally, instead of trying to get a "clean untainted chip" people should be trying to repurpose the backdoor functionality. It's all just silicon transistors, why not try to make use of it? It probably got some unique features that are very useful for a number of applications.

 No.11035

>>11031
The x86 is still lugging around legacy from the 8086 and in hindsight people have questioned if it would have been better if IBM had put the Motorola 68000 in the 5150 instead of the 8088 (IBM's margins back in '81 and '82 were so massive it the price difference would have been a rounding error for IBM) since the 68k started without memory segmentation and actually managed to get a emulator on the PowerPC line of processors while the x86 never been able to remove hardware 8086 support.

 No.11036

>>11035
It swings both ways, x86 has legacy baggage, but it also has a lot of software that is optimized for it.
Maybe going with powerpc would have been better, i don't know.

Of course if RiskV sort of develops into a gnu linux equivalent for hardware, it would take out all the hurdles for optimizing software and hardware in tandem, and we'd get amazingly efficient, fast and stable computing with a fraction of present day effort. But it will be very difficult and time consuming to get the ball rolling on this.

 No.11037

>>11036
> a gnu linux equivalent for hardware
Do you mean endlessly fragmenting into barely compatible ecosystems? That sounds like a toolchain nightmare. If you want portable executables you will have to stick to core RISC-V anyway, so it's modular and extensible nature is actually a disadvantage, at least from a toolchain point of view. Of course this is not an issue specific to RISC-V, but I don't see how it would solve it either.

 No.11039

>>11037
you are right there is too much forking and not enough merging, if that lesson can be learned and applied, it should work well for hardware. The modular and extensible nature is about optimizing price performance of chips. I think you are right that most people would stick to core RISC-V but you could still have software packages that go together with hardware extensions, and get amazing performance for the money.

 No.11627

File: 1632067075476.png (381.38 KB, 606x554, Common-types-of-wine.png)

Can anyone recommend me a good chinese laptop or ipod alternative? I've been wanting to replace my phone and ipod nano with something that develops productive forces.

 No.11629

>>11627
xiaomi phone
many laptops are chinese. i have a stinkpad with linooks, it just werqs dawg

 No.11631

>>11627
you take a xiaomi,and you put on a custom rom to remove all the google bullshit.

 No.11632

>>11629
>>11631
What about a laptop? I can do without getting a new phone, but i do miss the capability of using VPNs and playing proper vidya that only a laptop can let me do, not to mention that typing is easier. I can't stand using a phone for all my normie socialization.

 No.11638

>>11632
Any cheapest amd laptop that you can find you can get some for under 300$ et you can run game on them

 No.11640

>>11632
you can use VPN on an android
>vidya
i wouldn't do that on a laptop tbh
i havethe cheapest thinkpad and it's fine for everything besides vidya

 No.11653

>>11640
even the cheapest thinkpad those day can be betting with a cheap ass amd laptop that even can run game in 720p


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