No.10231
They could always just take back Taiwan…
No.10234
>>10230>Then there are Some sources are saying that China is failing horribly at acquiring manufacturing tech for more advanced processors. And I really can't make any real sense out of it.This is true, China is getting cockblocked from buying any advanced chip manufacturing machinery. Which is why they will need to produce their own machines instead. Don't expect any chips on par with AMD or Intel until you hear about Chinese home-grown chip manufacturing machines reaching parity with ASML.
No.10237
>>10233Lainchan is pretty good too, but wouldn't you like to discuss things with your leftypol pals too, anon?
No.10245
>>10233It's interesting that both Russia and China are jumping on the RISC-V train. I don't know if US sanctions and risk of sanctions will end up killing the US tech dominance in the global market. Just like US stopping countries from using the dollar makes more and more countries look for alternatives forms of conducting global trade.
No.10248
>>10245RISC-V allows for tailoring chip design, it gets more application specific performance for any given chip, that is particularly interesting for budget application, where you can switch to a lower tier chip production with this method without loosing relevant performance. Russia and China are more "cost sensitive", that's why they are early adopters.
No.10249
>>10248what about OpenPOWER
No.10254
>>10234How hard will it be for China to acquire the expertise, tech and build a manufacturing base for more advanced chips to catch up and keep up with the rest of the world?
No.10268
>>10249>what about OpenPOWERanybody know anything more about this ?
>>10254>How hard will it be for China to acquire the expertise, tech and build a manufacturing base for more advanced chips to catch up and keep up with the rest of the world?The important bottleneck in chip making is the lithography machines. The tech leader is ASML, that's a company in the Netherlands that is blocked by the US from selling to China.
(For the next paragraph smaller number = better)
China has made it's own lithography machines company and that one is called SMEE, they have machines in place for 28nm mass production at the moment, and they are working on getting mass production roll out of 14nm next year. The chip maker in Taiwan TSMC who is allowed to have ASML lithography gear is currently doing 7nm mass production and they are working on getting 3nm in to production at some time in the future.
China is behind 3 generations for the high end chips, but over100nm chips are still used in many applications. For chips that don't need that much performance they are already set. The small numbers in nm are most critical for portable devices because it means less battery drain and heat.
From the synthetic spec numbers it seems that China is catching up, how the realworld processing performance is stacking up, i don't know.
The US primary strategic goal of chip asfixiation has failed, china can self supply their strategic needs for chips. The secondary objective is commercial, they are trying to make Chinese products less competitive. That has had some effect but China is still able to source high end chips. And the US can't push too hard because China could cut the US off from TSMC. and the US is only now beginning to build out their own chip self sufficiency with new chip factories.
I guess that we should root for every side that is building out chip production because that means the chip supply gets better. This post was typed on a computer that's using 32nm chips (if i'm not mistaken)
No.10269
>>10254It can be easy, just attract the talent and allow them to become part of Chinese society with minimal hurdles. People will come. But we all know nationalist countries will never work that way lmao, so likely it will take a long time and they will be outcompeted by other societies who do a better job of attracting people.
No.10301
>>10249>what about OpenPOWERYou can buy these already, it's a evolution of the type of processors that used to be in Macintosh computers.
For example a Power9 based blackbird desktop computer from raptor is the closest thing to a fully open hardware that is actually usable as a powerful PC. You have to go through a lot of hoops to set it up correctly but you also do get a lot of security benefits. Compared to RISC V this is a lot more mature and has more processing horsepower.
If you have the money and necessary technical inclination for the set up process, it comes highly recommended.
No.10333
>>10268thanks for the informative post anon
No.10337
Suppose a company makes OpenPOWER or RISC-V chips. Is there any way we can verify that the manufacturer actually made the chips according to the published plans? Could they still insert backdoors that we can't find?
No.10339
>>10337> Is there any way we can verify that the manufacturer actually made the chips according to the published plans?No.
> Could they still insert backdoors that we can't find?Yes.
No.10350
>>10278Oh ok. Should be no problem to come up with better chip designs soon then 👍
No.10351
>>10350This issue is not chip design but instead, the production of chip manufacturing machinery.
No.10365
>>10337>Is there any way we can verify that the manufacturer actually made the chips according to the published plans? Could they still insert backdoors that we can't find?You can take the official chip plans and scramble the design, that "encrypts" the hardware level so that you need special encoded binaries for software to run, it also makes inserting a hardware backdoor impractical because the backdoor circuits would only see scrambled signals. So it's possible to design around an untrustworthy hardware maker, even if technically you can't verify the contents of a chip. You will however need to compile every software from source to install it, with a special -scrambler compiler flag.
No.10378
>>10365That sounds interesting, do you have more resources to learn about it?
>>10337What about a microscope?
No.10902
>>10899>It was most likely only a matter of time when US was going to pressure ARM to ditch China.How could that happen? They can't control what Arm does outside the USA.
No.10908
>>10902Nvidia is in the process of buying ARM, that's how. Even if the the regulators cancel the deal, that still doesn't change the fact that ARM holdings headquarters are located in Cambridge England and if US wants to sanction China the well know US vassal state of Britbongland will most likely follow the lead of it's sugar daddy, even if it isn't under the direct jurisdiction of the US government.
https://nvidianews.nvidia.com/news/nvidia-to-acquire-arm-for-40-billion-creating-worlds-premier-computing-company-for-the-age-of-ai No.10909
>>10908China can veto the acquisition, and even if it goes through, American export regulations only applies to products that have been developed in the USA. Unless Nvidia plans to move the full company to the USA, it is unlikely to change the current situation.
Arm continued to work with Huawei despite Trump fucking with them, so I don't think your concerns are well founded.
No.10969
>>10871https://www.theregister.com/2021/09/02/arm_china_response/Arm denies it, either this is damage control or the other article is anti-Chinese propaganda.
No.10973
>>10899>since future of processors is most likely ARM/Risc-V and not so much burger X86What really is the advantage of ARM over good ol' x86 anyway? I seem to recall that it was actually easier to install glowie shit into these chips.
No.11008
>>10973Since x86 is Intel and most processors use it are American it is most likely that every processor that follows that instruction set is glowie straight out of the box.
No.11009
>>10973ARM is just scaling better and is a "cleaner" architecture, its clearly the future
No.11031
>>10973Arm more processing / power
X86 more processing / money
Although that distinction is slowly shrinking
What is putting Arm on the future map is that RiscV is very modular, processors can be tailored for their intended workload very easily and that will come with massive speed increases.
X86 isn't going to die anytime soon it's probably has got at least 20 years left.
>>11008In my opinion people are not looking at processor backdoors rationally, instead of trying to get a "clean untainted chip" people should be trying to repurpose the backdoor functionality. It's all just silicon transistors, why not try to make use of it? It probably got some unique features that are very useful for a number of applications.
No.11035
>>11031The x86 is still lugging around legacy from the 8086 and in hindsight people have questioned if it would have been better if IBM had put the Motorola 68000 in the 5150 instead of the 8088 (IBM's margins back in '81 and '82 were so massive it the price difference would have been a rounding error for IBM) since the 68k started without memory segmentation and actually managed to get a emulator on the PowerPC line of processors while the x86 never been able to remove hardware 8086 support.
No.11036
>>11035It swings both ways, x86 has legacy baggage, but it also has a lot of software that is optimized for it.
Maybe going with powerpc would have been better, i don't know.
Of course if RiskV sort of develops into a gnu linux equivalent for hardware, it would take out all the hurdles for optimizing software and hardware in tandem, and we'd get amazingly efficient, fast and stable computing with a fraction of present day effort. But it will be very difficult and time consuming to get the ball rolling on this.
No.11037
>>11036> a gnu linux equivalent for hardwareDo you mean endlessly fragmenting into barely compatible ecosystems? That sounds like a toolchain nightmare. If you want portable executables you will have to stick to core RISC-V anyway, so it's modular and extensible nature is actually a disadvantage, at least from a toolchain point of view. Of course this is not an issue specific to RISC-V, but I don't see how it would solve it either.
No.11039
>>11037you are right there is too much forking and not enough merging, if that lesson can be learned and applied, it should work well for hardware. The modular and extensible nature is about optimizing price performance of chips. I think you are right that most people would stick to core RISC-V but you could still have software packages that go together with hardware extensions, and get amazing performance for the money.
No.11629
>>11627xiaomi phone
many laptops are chinese. i have a stinkpad with linooks, it just werqs dawg
No.11631
>>11627you take a xiaomi,and you put on a custom rom to remove all the google bullshit.
No.11632
>>11629>>11631What about a laptop? I can do without getting a new phone, but i do miss the capability of using VPNs and playing proper vidya that only a laptop can let me do, not to mention that typing is easier. I can't stand using a phone for all my normie socialization.
No.11638
>>11632Any cheapest amd laptop that you can find you can get some for under 300$ et you can run game on them
No.11640
>>11632you can use VPN on an android
>vidyai wouldn't do that on a laptop tbh
i havethe cheapest thinkpad and it's fine for everything besides vidya
No.11653
>>11640even the cheapest thinkpad those day can be betting with a cheap ass amd laptop that even can run game in 720p
No.14959
How China Made An Exascale Supercomputer Out Of Old 14 Nanometer Tech
>If you need any proof that it doesn’t take the most advanced chip manufacturing processes to create an exascale-class supercomputer, you need look no further than the Sunway “OceanLight” system housed at the National Supercomputing Center in Wuxi, China.
>Before this slew of papers were announced with details on the new Sunway many-core processor, we did take a stab at figuring out how the National Research Center of Parallel Computer Engineering and Technology (known as NRCPC) might build an exascale system, scaling up from the SW26010 processor used in the Sunway “TaihuLight” machine that took the world by storm back in June 2016.
>The 260-core SW26010 processor was etched by Chinese foundry Semiconductor Manufacturing International Corporation using 28 nanometer processes – not exactly cutting edge. And the SW26010-Pro processor, etched using 14 nanometer processes, is not on an advanced node, but China is perfectly happy to burn a lot of coal to power and cool the OceanLight kicker system based on it. (Also known as the Sunway exascale system or the New Generation Sunway supercomputer.)
>If the 160 cabinet scale is the maximum for OceanLight, then China could best the performance of the 1.5 exaflops “Frontier” supercomputer being tuned up at Oak Ridge National Laboratories today and also extend beyond the peak theoretical performance of the 2 exaflops “Aurora” supercomputer coming to Argonne National Laboratory later this year
>The bottom line is that NRCPC, working with SMIC, has had an exascale machine in the field for a year already. (There are two, in fact.) Can the United States say that right now? No it can’t. The United States is counting on its exascale machines to be more energy efficient – Frontier and El Capitan for sure, we shall see with Aurora – but we have no idea how computationally efficient any of these future machines really are.
So all know, the current 28nm Chinese risc processor using Sunway TaihuLight relased in 2016 is 4th on the TOP500 supercomputer list.
No.14960
>>14959They should use that super computer to heat water for residential remote-heat.
No.14961
>>14960Like what HP does in Finland with LUMI?
>The computer will use 100% hydroelectric energy, and the heat it generates will be captured and used to heat buildings in the area, making LUMI one of the most environmentally efficient supercomputers in the world. The former UPM paper mill where LUMI is located had only a single 2 minute power outage during its 38 years of operations thanks to the site's reliable connection to the national grid.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LUMI No.14974
>>14961There was a system in Holland I think where each home got a couple of servers to heat water. Seemed like a great idea.
No.15893
Ptychographic X-ray laminography: No trade secret or hardware trojan can hide
https://spectrum.ieee.org/chip-x-rayEvery cell transmitter, phone and computer must be inspected. Silicon Trojans must perish.
No.18529
>>18528Will us westerners be able to buy them?
No.18530
>>15971based, hopefully they eventually make some high end GPUs to undercut nvidia and amd
No.18536
One could probably already build a better computer than I have with Chinese parts.
No.18563
>>15971no more nsa agents watching my futa hentai through the backdoors
westerners in shambles
No.18569
>>18529>>18565i've seen motherboards with them on aliexpress, you just gotta look for them
No.18570
The real innovation will be on the RISC-V side not in proprietary architecture like Loongson.
No.18571
>>18570nooooo you cant say that here!!
No.18572
>>18528This is a garbage article that preys on the ignorance of people who know very little about the subject. The whole article can be basically summarized as "China will build their own machines, with blackjack and hookers", well sure, nobody was stopping them from doing so. Saying that China will build its own tools because the government will foot the bill is hardly a new idea, countries have tried and failed before.
Much of China's semiconductor manufacturing advancements have come from technological transfers and plain old stealing, including the 7nm design, but copying is hardly a good way to stay in the semiconductor race, especially once you encounter large technological barriers like in this case for example the lack of EUV machines. Nobody has claimed 7nm (N7) couldn't be manufactured with a DUV machine, but it's hardly economically viable, achieving it means little if you can't manufacture it at scale to be cost-competitive.
And for all the copium I've yet to see China actually invest in their own indigenous manufacturing advancements to compete at the leading edge, it's either stunts to grab headlines but in practice it goes nowhere or focus on much less sophisticated manufacturing which they can actually do at scale, which is also still needed and useful, but hardly anything groundbreaking like their fans constantly claim.
No.18574
>>18572They are already using Taiwanese engineers to build up their own chip tech base. And yes China is researching and building it's own lithography machines, including EUV as the next step. The are also looking other technologies beside Mosfet. Things like quantum and optical computing that might be the next thing or supplementary technology when getting more performance from traditional chips gets harder and harder.
No.18598
>>18574>They are already using Taiwanese engineers to build up their own chip tech basesource?
No.18601
Does anyone have any good material to understand how this whole semiconductor industry operates? Not the physics but the business.
No.18662
>>18601>people who know very little about the subject.like yourself? they have been shipping 7nm chips at least since 2021 but didn't publicize it so the west only found out in 2022
the bloomberg article here
>>15971 quotes a techinsights report from 2022 where they basically say that they found 7nm chips in a chinese bitcoin miner they were analyzing. minerva (the company that designs and sells that SoC) had been selling this particular miner since mid 2021. smic process is scalable and viable
>build its own tools because the government will foot the bill is hardly a new idea, countries have triedand succeeded, take the united states for example: the department of energy funded the EUV LLC, a consortium of three american companies that developed all the important parts for EUV lithography. the most important company of those three is cymer, a firm from texas that manufactures the EUV light sources necessary for the EUV process and that ASML was basically forced to buy
so although ASML is dutch in name, all the important R&D comes from the US, in part funded by venture capital, in part funded by the american state. and I'm sure that you would find even more state money if you were to dig into the "venture capital" part. this might surprise you, but is a common practice for the government to finance research and then give away the results to the private sector (but not the broad public) basically for free
tl;dr
>subsidies for me, not for thee No.18858
>>15971this is both an old article (2022) and a nothingburger.
this is the limit of the DUV technology, the fact that china managed to do this is impressive but without newer machines they cant get beyond 7nmn. Meanwhile TSMC, Intel, etc. will be getting into the angstrom era.
https://www.pcgamer.com/intel-puts-tsmc-on-notice-with-step-towards-angstrom-era-chips/see this article from 2 weeks ago.
>Intel says it has completed development of its upcoming 20A and 18A chip production processes. The first chips built on the first of these new nodes—the 20A node—will be made in the first half of next year.20 angstrom is 2nm. I.E. non chinese companies are already using EUV lithography to make 2 and 1.8 nm nodes.
>>18528>Previous reports have indicated that Loongson's 3A6000 processor will allegedly provide performance that is on par with AMD's Ryzen 5000 CPUs and Intel's 11th-Gen Core CPUs, which both debuted in 2020.yes and later this year intel will be making chips that are far faster and smaller than what they did before.
No.18859
>>18850are there any obvious advantages or use cases? beside like EMP resistance and audiophile applications?
No.18860
>>18858huh so is intel finally going to stop making dogshit ovens?
No.18862
>>18861…theres sanctions on china?
No.18863
Isnt there the blaringly obvious issue of support for these Chinese chip architectures? Would they actually be supported or will they be ignored?
No.18864
>>18859They're faster than transistors
No.18866
>>18861>poached Taiwan engineers once that speed bumb has been surpassed.for the last time, the taiwan/TSMC engineers USE lithography equipment, producing chips using that equipment vs engineering the equipment to begin with are totally different fields!
No.18867
>>18866>USE lithography equipment, producing chips using that equipment vs engineering the equipment to begin with are totally different fields!how2 diy?
No.18882
>>18863yeah it will be problem if they aim towards like towards consumer GPU's for PCs since they basically need to construct new APIs and have to get software devs to support them to compete. Won't be as big of a problem if they aim towards tailor made solutions, internal market or make like phone SoCs that they can more easily control and already have open source software.
No.18894
>>18867bro shit is along the lines of proprietary tech made with cutting edge applied physics you don't just "DIY"
No.18910
>>18901You realize they're not reliable, easy to make, affordable or usable in good yields?
Its nice that we have people learning the ways, but it won't replace how many decades from this we are now.
No.20127
>>10378would have to be some kind of special X-Ray microscope or regular electron microscope, both of which are likely to damage whatever they scan, and then still it'd only be practical to check small parts at a time, unless some kind of algorithmic solution is used.
>>15893oop, guess I'm too late
Open Source tastes best when forced anyways
No.20130
>>20127forced? no, no, this is just a
special libre update No.20378
>>15893holy BASED
when will we have home-bootstrappable low tech CPUs to cascade in like 5 cycles of re-etching upwards into formally verified FOSS CPUs? 50 years?
No.21477
>>21476This, coupled with what seems to be Huawei's superior android app compiler than can increase performance by more than 30%, Huawei is in a great position.
https://www.xda-developers.com/huawei-ark-compiler-android-app-performance/Not sure how common this Ark compiler is and it doesn't necessarily work with google play store downloaded apps, unfortunately. Other than that, I might get a huawei as my next phone. I got the cheapest compatible pixel phone and installed grapheneOS. It's not too bad but I do wonder how effective it is.
No.21491
>>21476FYI best that intel now has in raptor lake is around 7nm process in raptor lake. AMD has TSMC 5nm equivalent in 7000 series. Not that those nm counts are really accurate for real comparison.
No.21492
>>21477I can't find this compiler. This is the only thing I have found, but it is described as an AOT compiler for JavaScript and TypeScript:
https://gitee.com/openharmony/docs/blob/master/en/readme/ARK-Runtime-Subsystem.md No.22770
>>10249there's a cool project under development that's basically a combination of a CPU and GPU (which is useful because mobile GPUs are proprietary as hell)
https://libre-soc.org/ No.22787
>>22770>cool project under development that's basically a combination of a CPU and GPUWhy not just say SOC? It literally is that.
No.22808
>>22787it's different than that, normal SOCs have multiple devices side by side in the same package, this is literally a CPU that you can run GPU calculations on. it's implemented through the instruction set instead of device drivers and MMIO
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