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/tech/ - Technology

"Technology reveals the active relation of man to nature" - Karl Marx
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File: 1660281334437.png (368.77 KB, 2000x1414, ClipboardImage.png)

 No.16247

Suppose you live in a country that has adopted a planned economy. The transfer of production data and consumption data from various workers' enterprises (factories, offices, stores, etc.) to a central planning office is necessary for the planned economy to function. These data transfers must be kept secure against threats such as sabotage form imperialist countries. How would you design your society's OGAS to be resilient to attacks? The goal is to prevent the transfer of malicious/false economic data from the worker's enterprises to the central planning office and vice versa.

For the sake of this exercise, assume that there is only 1 central planning office and that all enterprises report to this central office. Also assume that there are around 10 million enterprises making reports to the planning office. Don't worry about keeping the physical infrastructure safe, the NKVD has it covered.

 No.16250

>>16247

For what reason on earth would personal communications be happening on the same forum as whatever signal system we'd be using for demand and production signals?

 No.16251

>>16250
Are you suggesting OGAS should use a dedicated intranet?

 No.16252

i begin to commit industrial sabotage

 No.16253

>>16251

personal communications are obviously different from demand signals, the fact that online advertising doesn't work and has not worked for 30 years should be proof enough of that

 No.16254

>>16247

IDK you can plan an entire national economy with extremely limited computing power and to the extent that long-term stuff requires planning it's basically just iterations of the monge-kantorovich problem with some slight variations on time-sensitive goods, it's legitimately not an algorithmically complicated problem

 No.16255

>>16254
You still need reliable data from the local enterprises. This exercise is about securing the transfer of economic data not about economic planning itself.

 No.16256

>>16253
Are you suggesting OGAS should use a dedicated intranet?

 No.16257

>>16255

legitimately how is that a complication, every single enterprise that uses data right now deals with this every day, why would you expect there to be some global communist technosolution to the problem of "garbage in garbage out"?

 No.16258

>>16255

If you want a single example of technological data transfer about production statistics over time, that's been done repeatedly both under GOSPLAN and cybersyn, the algorithms to do all of this are comparatively well understood and as long as we can get fascists to stop killing our economic planners the workers economy will mostly be fine

 No.16259

>>16257
Consider you have a general store where you can turn in your labour credits for provisions. How does the store report the inventory gained and the inventory "sold" not really sold since customers use labour credits during its day-to-day operations to the planning office? How often should the store report this data? What steps can be taken to ensure the reports are accurate?

 No.16260

>>16259

I get that you're pretending to be smart here, but you've obviously not engaged with the literature because this is literally just adding a noisy signal to the support for a transport plan in the standard monge-kantorovich problem

there's a specialized variation of the algorithm that deals with input noise, you're not getting some gotcha out of this just showing you don't read any of the operations research literatiure

 No.16261

>>16260
Correct, I've not read any of the literature you're referring to. How about posting some pdfs?

 No.16262

>>16261

what you want me to handhold you through "baby's first linear programming exercise" and pretend that you have something worthwhile to say about economics at the same time?

 No.16263

>>16261

how about you kill yourself instead of me wasting time on that?

 No.16264

>>16262
>>16263
All you have to do is post some pdfs. It's not much work.

 No.16265

>>16264

pdfs of what this is literally like asking to post a pdf proving 1+1=2, it's basic linear algebra stuff that anyone with a competent background in economics should know out of hand

 No.16266

>>16264

the fact that you don't know what a linear program is is absolutely on you if you're somehow opining on political economy

 No.16267

>>16265
There's quite a gulf between linear algebra and it's application in economic planning.
>>16266
It was not my intention to discuss political economy in this thread and I don't believe my OP was making any prescriptions on political economy. I wanted to discuss the security of OGAS from a software system perspective, hence why this thread is posted in tech and not in edu.

 No.16268

>>16247
Computer network can be secure enough that it takes extraordinary determination to breach them.
That limits the mount of malicious interference to the point where you set up enough booby-traps and honeypots to catch all the hackers and make them work for the people's IT service.

 No.16270

>>16267

> There's quite a gulf between linear algebra and it's application in economic planning.


In fact there is not, almost all modern production planning is based either directly or indirectly on linear algebra, and the only mathematically significant variations other than knapsack type stuff are what's called "optimal transport" problems (aka the monge-kantorovich problems, after the soviet economic planner leonid kantorovich)

the "gulf" is relatively small and anyone with a cursory background in industrial engineering will say as much.

it's mostly pointless imo to ask about security questions because they usually require an implementation or context, which is not and may never exist. The optimization problems can clearly be discussed in the abstract as mathematical entities, but that's clearly not the case for security questions so it's pretty pointless to ask

 No.16271

>>16268
What are examples of very secure networks? Stock market? Military?

 No.16272

>>16271
Actually existing computer networks that have really good security are pretty rare. Most IT security experts think our IT infrastructure has terrible security in general.

For good security you need audited open source and a "no insecure configuration option paradigm".

 No.16274

wtf a good thread in /tech/

 No.16277

Cockshott came up with one idea; Basically, you'd randomize binary codes for various instructions, so 0001 might be a mov instruction on one machine and it might be 0010 on another. Obviously, you'd need a new compiler for every machine you have as part of the network, or at least have some kind of seed you could add as an argument, but it'd mean that in principle viruses and other malware would have to be custom tailored for every machine.

 No.16378

>>16247
IDK but the first thing that comes to my mind is implementing OGAS in Rust.

 No.16379

>>16277
Cockshott once again proving he talks about more things than he understands.

 No.16380

>>16379
404: Argument not found

 No.16381

>>16380
How about we keep pirating vidya without needing to transpile it every time, since this does nothing but weakly enforce open source.
Certainly a good thing, but one of the essences of the freedom of software includes freedom of distribution, so maybe not limit consumer side, but enforce producer side…

 No.16382

>>16277
ngl that sounds pretty retarded

 No.16396

SSH and PKI

 No.16397

>>16277
It's security by obscurity taken to the logical maximum. One environment per computer.

 No.16398

>>16277
formal verification is much better than a half-baked idea like this. that and going back to Harvard machines

 No.16399

>>16381
>since this does nothing but weakly enforce open source
Encrypting the chip architecture makes it much harder to put backdoors into hardware, and you can scale down microchip-fab security from ultra paranoid to regular paranoid. If you combine this with virtualization and make it so that the virt-host and virt-guest system run on processor cores with different hardware encryption keys , it will become next to impossible for malware to break through virtualization layers.

Security patching will also become more economical and faster when malware has to distribute it self as source-code, because the step of reverse engineering binaries can be omitted.

The only real downside to this is that each piece of software gets compiled billions of times, and that's wasting a lot of compute cycles, and energy for battery powered devices. Adding something like a hardware accelerator feature for compiling software is necessary.

Current Computer security designs are getting better at preventing weaknesses in memory allocation , so the next target is going to be weaknesses in software logic, and this architecture encryption might be good at mitigating that.

 No.23068

bump

 No.23069

>>23068
why did you bump this shit? how is this even a thread? is everyone here retarded?
only >>16396 mentioned pki and tls and he got ignored. why does everyone here like writing and talking about shit they are completely uninformed about

wtf is this, it is embarrassing. mods please delete this thread

 No.23071

>>23069
Blah, SSH and PKI are obvious for encrypting a computer network
Don't blame anons for trying to spin something interesting out of a boring prompt

 No.23091

bump


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