(Copypasted from a previous 4chin /g/ thread as a foundation to making these generals on leftypol)
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$ man %command%
$ info %command%
$ %command% -h/–help
$ help %builtin/keyword%
Don't know what to look for?
$ apropos %something%
Check the Wikis (most troubleshoots work for all distros):
https://wiki.archlinux.orghttps://wiki.gentoo.org/g/'s Wiki on GNU/Linux:
https://igwiki.lyci.de/wiki/Category:GNU/Linux
>What distro should I choose?https://igwiki.lyci.de/wiki/Babbies_First_Linux>What are some cool programs?https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/list_of_applicationshttps://directory.fsf.org/wiki/Main_Pagehttps://suckless.org/rocks/>What are some cool terminal commands?https://www.commandlinefu.com/commands/browsehttps://cheat.sh/>Where can I learn the command line?https://mywiki.wooledge.org/BashGuidehttps://www.grymoire.com/Unix/>Where can I learn more about Free Software?https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/philosophy.html>How to break out of the botnet?https://prism-break.org/en/categories/gnu-linux>>26562Haven't used it myself but seems to be one of the prettier ones from a strictly visual point of view. Debian base most likely means it's solid.
The main thing you have to ask yourself is if you're comfortable with using an OS based in China. If it's not subverted right now, it can be tomorrow at the drop of a hat, and you won't know.
>>26571Look at heads (
https://heads.dyne.org) and roll your own release with more recent software.
>>26600The enterprise world favors RH because of legacy, they were the first ones to do it successfully w support contracts. From there a sense of "safe" carries.
End users like Debian because *checks notes* it's good. It's versatile. Seriously, half or more of all distros are Debian for a good reason. It's not completely brain dead easy like Ubuntu or Zorin but it's not far off
>>26571Qubes OS or Devuan/Artix/Void with full disk encryption (dm-crypt). Note that Artix has better support for OpenRC and probably S6. Their Apparmor packages don't install init script for Runit. The init script loads all profiles on boot. I recommend always using Apparmor because it adds extra security. Always also install firewall (like ufw).
More tips:
Do not make a swap partition (or encrypt it). Don't use suspend on disk (Sleep mode) or suspend on RAM. Have a separate computer for your personal activities and political activities. Don't use the same password for both computers. Lock the root account if you don't use it ( with sudo passwd –lock r00t ).. Be sure to always turn off the computer that you use for political activities when you don't use it. This way they can't extract your encryption keys from RAM. Prefer using Tor Browser whenever you can and use bridges. Encrypt your mail using GnuPG (don't trust your webmail to do it). I prefer distros that don't have SystemD because SystemD is so huge that it adds to the attack surface. Example: the old xz-utils backdoor required a custom downstream patch to OpenSSH daemon that enabled systemd-notify support. Red Hat, Fedora, Ubuntu and Debian were targeted because no one else had patched their OpenSSH to enable that functionality.
>>26711endeavour is for those who can't install arch by reading some wiki pages but still want arch
>mxI think it's terrible, one glance at the faq and they're already suggesting reinstalling the distro if the debian stable base changes
I recommend gentoo if you have the attention span to read the whole handbook
>>26729Cool off on the gentoo shilling a bit. I understand you may be excited about the options portage offers, but in practice gentoo doesn't come close to being a meta-distro. You have a mainline GNU configurations with openrc or systemd and a lot of commonly used linux software, that is the only one actively supported and tested. Then you have a slew of lesser used ebuilds and overlays, where the most support you will get is asking someone on the forums. Furthermore the project has a history of capitulating to the latest snakeoil and deprecating any sane alternatives, like what happened with udev, dbus and logind.
For someone wanting a systemd-free distro that doesn't use openrc and supports package source compilation, i would recommend both alpine and void over gentoo, maybe devuan and obarun as well.
>>26730>>26730>For someone wanting a systemd-free distro>that doesn't use openrcbruh
>Cool off on the gentoo shilling a bitnah
ok only a little bit>the project has a history of capitulating to the latest snakeoil and deprecating any sane alternatives, like what happened with udev, dbus and logind.I don't think they have many developers to keep maintaining too many components like what happened with eudev
>>26735>openrcYes it's a step forward from sysvinit+shellscripts, but it only supports rudimentary service supervision and paralell startup is experimental to this day.
>eudevEudev and elogind were straight up forks of the systemd code. I'm speaking about static /dev and consolekit.
>>26738>I'm speaking about static /dev and consolekit.but like, where would one find recent/still maintained documentation for static /dev and consolekit, even LFS doesn't teach it and on the gentoo forums only like
actually I'd rather not mention any names of the users, probably disrespectful and etc knows about this
>>26752>where would one find recent/still maintained documentation for static /dev and consolekitA long time ago both both were supported options for a gentoo installation, then a certain redhat project EEEd the linux desktop software ecosystem. Slackware never stopped using consolekit2 for example (though udev clearly won the battle decades ago because of plug-and-play fetishization). Logind is only a hard dependency for modern crapware like Skype and Wayland anyway.
What this historical precedent ultimately means is, that you can't necessarily trust the gentoo maintainers not to deprecate gtk+2 or a release of a compiler version you need. They've already started removing python2 ffs. The project just isn't committed to long term software stability in any way.
>>26762Their main market isn't desktop and not even small-scale orders (
https://it-notes.dragas.net/2023/08/27/that-old-netbsd-server-running-since-2010/). They're in a dominant market position, so they peddle unstable software to maximize profits from businesses with large-scale orders, that will ultimately buy their contracts regardless of software quality. Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM.
>>27272 (me)
nvm I didn't break the company's notebook, it's just ubuntu being ub
aduntu
>>27295And Devuan upgrades every year or at most every other year.
You good??
Just harden/configure a debian install for any third person reading
>>27332>>27342static /dev is totally worth it, i haven't had any device problems since setting it up. never used consolekit though. i'm not even sure which programs need a login manager except for gnome, kde and skype for linux????
all my boot bundle in s6-rc does is mount some filesystems, launch fdholder, set the hostname, keymap and a seed for /dev/random, as well as load everything from /etc/modules. the next step is starting some gettys. average linux users don't understand how needlessly complicated their setup is compared to this.
Don't plan on using /opt/ much but do plan on a split-usr.
EFI 512MIB
swap 8GiB
/ 16GiB
/opt/ 32GiB
/var/ 32GiB
/usr/ 64GiB
/home/ ~1TB
tmpfs 32GiB
Anything about this seem nuts?
>>27361but after you set all this up, will it need to be maintained/constantly tinkered with or is the only thing necessary of system administration would be just to update the system like on
>>26758 ?
>>27365>/ 16GiBon openbsd i could get by with only 1G. you usually want root to be small, so no files get accidently dumped there. 4-8G would work for modern linux maybe.
>/var/ 32GiBseems way too large. i usually keep mine under 4G, except for /var/lib/flatpak that's a symlink to my massive /usr/local partition.
>/home/ ~1TBhaving /home be the partition for large data is a matter of taste. i like to have /usr/local fill that role. if i were you i would also symlink /opt to /usr/local/opt
>tmpfs 32GiBi can't tell anymore how much memory the average person has, i'm still at 16G on my desktop. i would advise against using your whole memory for /tmp. my system ground to a halt before while launching a game and having a few large files there.
>>27368>/ 16GiB>on openbsd i could get by with only 1G. you usually want root to be small, so no files get accidently dumped there. 4-8G would work for modern linux maybe.You're probably right here. Have a bit of a fear of / not being writable.
>/var/ 32GiB>seems way too large. i usually keep mine under 4G, except for /var/lib/flatpak that's a symlink to my massive /usr/local partition.Apparently portage puts temporary files there so if wanted to install chromium this would be 16GiB plus whatever was already there.
>tmpfs 32GiB>i can't tell anymore how much memory the average person has, i'm still at 16G on my desktop. i would advise against using your whole memory for /tmp. my system ground to a halt before while launching a game and having a few large files there.My system has 64GB of ram, might make tmpfs smaller, like 8GiB. Haven't gotten to this step yet.
>>27372>My system has 64GB of ram, might make tmpfs smaller, like 8GiB. Haven't gotten to this step yet.fortunately you can change this at any later point with minimal effort.
>Apparently portage puts temporary files there so if wanted to install chromium this would be 16GiB plus whatever was already there.i say symlink the portage stuff somewhere else. keeping /var small and easily fsckable is important for recovering log files.
>You're probably right here. Have a bit of a fear of / not being writable./ not being writable would be a good thing in some cases. here's a reminder what the point of having multiple partitions is:
<most user accounts should not have the ability to write large filesif any unprivileged program goes rogue, you can still write to "full" partitions as root and clean up the mess.
<the base system should be on its own small partitionpower failure during lots of i/o can leave a partition crippled and you don't want that to be your root. fsck also won't take as long.
<you can set options on individual partitionshave a look at the mount manpage for restricting file types, disabling asynchronous i/o and performance options related to atime.
>>27379Since there isn't a musl split-user stage3 looks like the key was to copy the list of programs in /bin/ of a split-usr stage3 (with minor adjustments as needed), copy over /lib/ from /usr/lib/ temporarily and then recompile everything with
split-usr static static-libs After this it should be possible to remove /lib/ because /bin/ is static, and remove those files in /usr/bin/ which are also in /bin/ though this last sentence is yet to be tested. Also had to create a new /dev/null for static-usr.
>>27379>this is not what thought the benefit was.with partitions you can also take advantage of the physical properties of hdds, letting you group related files into partitions. for ssds you instead want the simplest scheduler (deadline) and ideally jfs on the most accessed partitions.
>musl, statichuh, i tried this once but was hindered by the lackluster documentation and my cursory knowledge of portage, but it seems as though musl support is no longer experimental, providing stage3 tarballs. marxspeed anon!
>>27383Managed to get this thing to boot and with a clean split /usr/ (/lib/ is not totally empty) etc. Have no idea really how to use static-dev however. You can add some filesystems with mknod and a device MAJOR MINOR these seem to be available under /sys/dev/block (one for each partition plus one for the disk it seems) and /sys/dev/char (199 different devices on my system!) . How would one go about determining the MAJOR MINOR numbers for a device e.g. my wireless card, rather than by table (e.g.
https://lxr.linux.no/#linux+v2.6.31/Documentation/devices.txt). Or is this way off.
>>27397>these seem to be available under /sys/dev/blockinteresting. i only knew what numbers they were assigned, depending on how you configured your per-device partition maximum. documentation specifically for device numbers is under
https://lxr.linux.no/linux+v6.7.1/Documentation/admin-guide/devices.txt>How would one go about determining the MAJOR MINOR numbers for a device e.g. my wireless cardnetwork devices don't require device files. you may need network_throughput (c10,61) and network_latency (c10,62) for DHCP though.
if at any point you feel like you're missing something, mount a tmpfs under /dev and have a look at what dbus does. 'busybox mdev -s' would also be a good start. the point of static /dev is understanding what character and block devices your system accesses and managing them yourself, which is usually a one-time job.
>>27400>if at any point you feel like you're missing something, mount a tmpfs under /dev and have a look at what dbus does. 'busybox mdev -s' would also be a good start.Have dbus masked, but could install busybox it seems. Might just watch out for changes in /sys/dev and mount accordingly though, if that would work.
>the point of static /dev is understanding what character and block devices your system accesses and managing them yourself, which is usually a one-time job.Have largely postponed this step for better or worse. Will not be able to stay in this state of ignorance because will be needing to connect flash drives etc. But have already questioned why there would be 97 TTY devices when only 6 of them are writable by the tty user.
Wasn't able to reasonably avoid installing llvm/clang. Could be done with the vesa driver, but considering that my monitor is already flickering half the time considered it a bad idea to experiment with drivers.
>>27396>static /dev would be interesting if I could keep it bleeding edge updated, like regular gentooThis is evidently possible, with the exception of some drivers,
if it really does interests anyone.
>>27464>On that note, a good way of testing which input device corresponds to which character device is catting the files to the terminal. Don't forget to type reset afterwards.Intereesting
>>27463>It's actually in the Xorg manpage. Launching Xorg with the -configure option should auto-generate most things. The only settings i had to adjust were the keyboard device number and mouse protocol.Actually didn't need to do anything after setting up the old drivers it just worked!
>>27470>Guess am still going to need a browserGet an alpine chroot. It has up-to-date versions of chrome and firefox.
>>27469>>27471Dbus and Gtk+3 are more trouble than they're worth. Masking them is just common sense. See Stanislav's /etc/portage/package.mask/crapolade:
sys-apps/systemd
sys-fs/udev
media-video/libav
gnome-base/gconf
>=app-crypt/gnupg-2.0.22
app-accessibility/at-spi2-atk
app-accessibility/at-spi2-core
sys-apps/dbus
sys-auth/consolekit
sys-auth/polkit
gnome-extra/polkit-gnome
dev-util/gdbus-codegen
gnome-base/dconf
>=x11-libs/gtk+-3.0.0
>>27473Wasn't looking forward to trying to keep up with patches for Gtk+3 let alone trying to maintaining them. Will give masking >=x11-libs/gtk+-3.0.0 a go also at your suggestion.
>Get an alpine chroot. It has up-to-date versions of chrome and firefox.A chroot to run the browser in sounds reasonable, but using alpine will be my last resort. Seems with either webkit-gtk2, webkit-qt, or palemoon a static build wouldn't need too much.
Unfortunately think palemoon is the only option in terms of development tooling which will build. >>27475Ended up nearly doing an exhaustive search, and doing certain things over and over again with slight alternation hoping they would work. Palemoon doesn't compile without glibc, and am not presently able to make the patches myself. Removing gcr from surf wasn't as easy as it looked. Am also not presently able to make ebuilds for anything more than dummy packages.
Nyxt requires a small patch so might give this a go at some point, put luakit compiled and ran with only the Gtk+3 patch.
The flickering was a hardware issue to do with Turbo Boost. But the trackpad still doesn't work (/dev/input/event* and /dev/input/mice exist) and because used genkernel suspend doesn't work.
>>27521Still haven't migrated over my personal and development files; haven't quite got comfortable with it just yet. A number of compromises were necessary as can be seen from the screenshot. A problem with such compromises is that a number of these systems are interelated, and to remove one modification means removing others. So compromising on udev meant that through grub pciutils needed the -static-libs flag and my system isn't completely static (not sure if it was anyway). Switching to the modern intel drivers over i915 meant acceloration worked but dragged in LLVM (one of the more tollerable compromises). Was further suprised by the lack of modern webbrowsers (and only modern webbrowsers) which would build with the system.
If decided to do it over again would make sure to configure the kernel, and such that devtmpfs was disabled allowing for permissions to be maintained with a static-dev, or else would write a script to handle this for me. That should allow for shaving all but the Gtk+3 compromise. The suggestion to run the browser in a chroot does seem to be the only way to have a clean build environment. Seems like ideally there would be a WPE based browser available (and technically there is):
https://eleni.mutantstargoat.com/hikiko/wpe/ >>27548>why are you using grub and not lilo or efistubDidn't try LILO or Syslinux, but EFI stubs still required the -static-libs for pciutils.
>>27545Didn't end up setting this up, because it was a bad idea.
>>27555rob pike, chuck moore, rms, guy steele, alan kay, richard p. gabriel, djb, jwz, uriel, mircea popescu…
all of them were right
>>28580There's probably some stuff, debian has quirks. Like you'll have to install sudo. But you're already running debian if you're using ubuntu. There shouldn't be a huge change.
That said, I've been trying fedora based distros and gnome is really nice… If you're ready for an actual switch, try smth fedora with gnome.
>>28582>you'll have to install sudoreally? that's surprising, even if you install it with a desktop like gnome?
>I've been trying fedora based distros and gnome is really nice… If you're ready for an actual switch, try smth fedora with gnome.i actually used fedora gnome a while back but it really didn't like my laptop and would spit out dozens of incomprehensible errors everytime i turned it on, one day an update seemed to fix it, but only a few days later another update brought it back, one of the reasons i was considering debian was that i felt the frequency of updates on other distros was too fast for me, and i also think a vanilla gnome would be better than ubuntu's odd custom gnome, although i like both.
in the meantime i had to reinstall anyway so i decided to try out linux mint for some reason, and i am not enjoying it, so i will still probably be switching to debian soon.
My friend has some dogshit celeron laptops from 2020. What distro/DE copes best with e-waste laptops? Needs to be lightweight but also have good laptop integration.
>>29233Glad to hear anon.
Anons, I need distro help. Been an Arch user for eight years now (wow, I feel old). But recently, I've become very busy so system maintenance has become something that I can't always do. I've gotten a few partial upgrade issues that ended up being deprecation issues with configs on other packages when fixing my system with a full upgrade. I've also had a bunch of AMDGPU-related constant kernel panics on the latest version a few months ago so I had to downgrade once the LTS kernel got those issues too, and downgrading is hard on Arch by design.
So basically, I'm questioning whether it's time for me to change which distribution I'm using. I'm not sure where to go though. Ideally, I'd like a distro that allows me to pick whether to install packages from a stable repository with security updates always and feature updates every month or two, or from a bleeding edge repository that pulls in whatever dependencies are needed. Bonus points if dependency hell is avoided and I can have a stable and latest version of the same package at once for libraries for example. I'd also need as few abstractions as possible, no distro-specific config BS, and configuration without frameworks. I should be able to configure my system only using the software's specific documentation instead of a random, distro-specific meta-config tool or whatever. Also would be nice if the repositories had optimized binaries for newer architectures or LTO or whatever.
Gentoo seemed appealing and like the answer, but as I said, maintenance is becoming a chore and constantly checking USE flags and manually versioning is something that I have experience with but found to be a big time sink.
Any help? [spoiler]Yet another distro help post, a thread got unbumped for this, joy[/spoiler]
>>29358can you check the BIOS settings?
which brand is your bios?
>>29359smh i forgot to add
>>29357 >>29359It might not be much different on the hardware considering the encoding and such is all done by a ffmpeg anyway.
>>29360>can you check the BIOS settings?>which brand is your bios?The machine is a Dell Latitude 5590, couldn't locate any such problem online. It seems so arbitrary. If am in BIOS it works, and if am logged in as root it works literally every other time, and otherwise it doesn't work at all.
>>29356Assuming you have cursory knowledge of portage, during dependency tracking it will read any file in /etc/portage/package.mask and skip ebuilds that match the rules, if it encounters 'sys-apps/dbus' for example, it will refuse to emerge any version of dbus and ebuilds depending on it as well. You can use /etc/portage/package.use similarly to add use flags to specific ebuilds.
I don't know if you can still build a useful desktop with the current state of gentoo patches though, i've been using dulap gentoo, a snapshot from circa 2017, for the last five years.
>>29358>>29362Seems like the charger only works sporadically in even the BIOS now.
Have placed an order for an alternative OEM cable.
Have my doubts that this will fix it because of screen flickering in low power.
Suspect it's actually a fault in the way power is handled internally.
>>29501This should actually reduce the amount of "revisionist" Linux on my system.
Mostly on account of discovering the i965 driver with mesa-amber.
>>29501>custom ebuild for BasiliskLooks like may also need to reinstall with glibc for this.
Also need to write a script to migrate my Obsidian to Denote (Emacs).
Sadly am not sure am up for this however.
>>29511Ran into other problems between musl and mesa-amber.
On account of this decided to take the nuclear option, reformating the disk.
Am shocked have the energy to do this, but it's going smoothly so far.
>>29515Even =x11-libs/gtk+2* pulls in rust now, and palemoon doesn't build with gtk+3 so this required the following ebuild:
https://github.com/stefan11111/stefan_overlay/blob/main/x11-libs/gtk%2B/gtk%2B-2.24.35.ebuild supposedly it's possible to use stefan11111's fake-gtk2 to build palemoon with >=x11-libs/gtk+3.0.0 think this would be my preference as it would allow for other graphical applications to be installed in the future but wasn't able to figure out how to get it to work, oh well.
There was a bug in media-libs/mesa-amber ebuild which required the following patch to be compatible with available versions of media-libs/mesa:
https://bugs.gentoo.org/945373#c3To have a functioning >=x11-libs/gtk+3.0.0 previously had to package.provided virtual/freedesktop-icon-theme-0-r4 after installing x11-themes/hicolor-icon-theme, and install a dummy app-accessibility/at-spi2-core from
https://github.com/stefan11111/stefan_overlay/blob/main/app-accessibility/at-spi2-core/at-spi2-core-9999.ebuild these changes are no longer needed as am not presently using >=x11-libs/gtk+3.0.0
So that's where we're at.
>>29526This is version two of my gentoo!
Near completely revisionism-free!
Can't make myself purge udev again.sys-apps/systemd
sys-auth/elogind
# sys-apps/systemd-utils
# virtual/udev
sys-fs/eudev
sys-auth/polkit
sys-auth/consolekit
media-sound/pulseaudio
net-dns/avahi
sys-apps/dbus
llvm-core/llvm
sys-devel/clang
dev-lang/rust
dev-lang/rust-bin
x11-libs/gtk+::gentoo
media-libs/mesa-amber::gentoo
>=gnome-base/librsvg-2.41.0
>>29535That's the package.mask file.
It prevents anything here from being installed.
>>29537No, that's Palemoon in the picture.
The alternatives are net-libs/webkit-gtk based.
>>29538Does anyone else have performance issues with palemoon?
Overall it's not bad but am seeing for example 50%+ CPU usage from just opening
https://deepseek.comFurther having lots of lag in the GUI for example moving tabs, or even just the loading graphic on the tabs.
Would try www-client/luakit instead but would need to write a patch for Emacs style bindings:
https://github.com/luakit/luakit/issues/557Don't think am up for that at the moment, even given the increased movement towards programming lately.
>>29671>only does so with my old dracut kernelWould be open to suggestions if anyone has any ideas as to why this might be happening.
With ugrd error is that everything is missing its shared libraries including /bin/login.
Tried modifying the configuration to explicitly mount /usr/ and even /dev/ but the latter wasn't supported and the former did nothing.
Tried just removing the udev dependency from the dracut.ebuild and adding the option omit_dracutmodules+=" udev-rules ".
This results in an error which have now forgotten, but don't have much hope for this path.
>>29737Is the documentation complete and up to date?
https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/admin-guide/devices.htmlWould probably rather avoid the manual approach if it turns out it's not.
>>29745Had the "genius idea" to hand compress and parse the LAD table.
The idea is that devices are typically linked to the correctly named device in /sys/dev/.
However this doesn't give you the subdirectory in /dev/ to mount them.
So you just need to make a compressed and parsed table of subdirectories from the LAD documentation.
This way could have something like a minimal MAKEDEV before handling permissions.
Got until 116 (ALSA) before realized that the documentation is incomplete.
ALSA doesn't know to look outside of /dev/snd for these devices, but there's no indication.
Bummer.
>>29810Apparently the data used by udev to determine default mountpoints are stored in sysfs in the uevent file of the /sys/dev/*/*/ directory.
https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/ABI/testing/sysfs-uevent it's stored as DEVNAME.
Of course this doesn't solve the permissions issue,
one could reimplement a parser for udev rules.
Then one could have a hand-crank udev/MAKEDEV replacement, with all the proper permissions applied.Then /dev/ is just a directory which can be wiped and replaced with a snapshot tar.
It's late, was trying to get alpine chroot with tbb running but ran into issues when attempting to execute as non-root:
bwrap: Creating new namespace failed: Operation not permitted
error: ldconfig failed, exit status 256
The typical fixes didn't help:
https://github.com/flatpak/flatpak/issues/703#issuecomment-293250243https://github.com/containers/bubblewrap/issues/324#issuecomment-517378834>>27473>>29821>>29824Cheaped out a little on the chroot, and just used debootstrap, but got this working.
The only thing that seems to not be working is the audio, but don't have it in me atm.
Have something like the following in my ,bashrc:
alias torbrowser-launcher=' \
sudo mount --bind /dev ${HOME}/jail/dev && \
sudo mount --bind /dev/pts ${HOME}/jail/dev/pts && \
sudo mount --bind /proc ${HOME}/jail/proc && \
sudo mount --bind /sys ${HOME}/jail/sys && \
sudo mount --bind /run ${HOME}/jail/run && \
sudo -E chroot ${HOME}/jail /bin/su ${CHROOTUSER} -c torbrowser-launcher'
>>29824>* in AppImageShould have tested this before reporting.
They dynamically link to common libs.
But don't seem to have a list of what these are.
>>29828Needed to run with apulse and modify /etc/group so that the chroot and system have the same group number for audio.
Was considering replacing Pale Moon with LuaKit for webdev and public persona, but decided against it.
Guess it's all working now exactly as it should.
>>29895Emacs is the goat program, I love it so much. I also love all the ancient quirky shit It has tbh. 10/10 super fun program.
Also, I'm forced to use windows at work and emacs on windows is actually good enough to use and the eshell gives me a shell which isn't powershell
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