Friend didn't like it when he got to shoot one, opinion invalidated
AKs are fine guns, but isn't it pretty much settled that milled (greater than) stamped? Why did HK stop making stamped(as much as a I love the G3?) I hear that milled AKs are actually better too.
It's alright anon, now that Finland's gonna be in NATO we'll bring him into the 21st century.
I mean you COULD go with all of that or you could just buy an Aero upper and a BCM lower. Don't overthink your first AR, you'll end up spending too much and descending into insanity and poverty as you try to figure out whether you should buy an H2 or an H3 buffer in case you want your gun to be more controllable when you illegally modify it to fire full auto by printing out a yankee boogle.
Stamped is better, but milling is cheaper if your production quantities are not high enough. Plus there is a lot of technological nuances in stamping.
Also AR are not milled, they are drop forged. >milled AKs are actually better too
I dont know about non-Soviet AK derivatives, but in the ex-USSR countries milled AK are a rarity - they have beed out of production for half a century, and for a good reason. Milled is heavy, and you don't want your rifle to be heavy.
Also replying to this thread in general.
0)You need to LEARN SHOOTING. Buy PCP airgun or .22 LR and train A LOT. Airgun/.22LR skills are 100% transferable to any larger-caliber firearm.
1)Your rifle NEED to have optics. Both Soviet Abakan and USA ACR trials determinde that fitting a 5.5 mm rifle with an optic sight increase its combat efficiency by the factor 1.5-1.7. It's so important that you better buy subpar rifle with good scope than top tier AR with no scope. 1-6x30 var magnification wide angle is your best choice. 3x or 4x wide angle (12 deg or so) second best.
2)Your gun need to fire 5.5 mm ammo. 5.45 is better than 5.56 (flatter trajectory, better ballistics both outer and terminal, by 300-400 m it will have more energy than 5.55), but more important factor is ammo availability. Living in NATO country you will probably find 5.56 cheaper and more abundant.
7.62 is much worse, unless you do subsonic loads in 7.62x39.
3)Your gun need to be reliable and serviceable. Your comrade need to know how to use your gun, you need to know how to use your comrade's gun. Therefore it's best to get a derivative of your country standart issue rifle. Well, don't go and buy L85, but brits cant into guns anyway.
4)Good muzzle device is a must. Fitting AK-74-style muzzle break/flas hider on an AR decrease burst spread like 2 or 3 times and improves overall combat efficiency 10 to 25%. No need to get exact replica, any good working muzzle break/flash hider/compensator combo works. Precision Armaments AFAB seems to be one of the best options rn, providing about 50% recoil impulse reduction and near-perfect flash dissipation.
Or go with a tactical supressor. Reducing sound signature can be more important that improving rapid-fire control, depending on situation.
Go also get NVG or night scpoe, if you can afford it. Immense edge in any low-light situation and general situation awareness during nighttime. War revolves around knowing where your enemy is and not letting the enemy to know where you are. Any means toward these are a great force multiplier.
TL;DR buy an 5.56 rifle with a good scope, AR if in USA.
>>2597>Reducing sound signature can be more important that improving rapid-fire control, depending on situation.
A lot of your post is good, but this statement along with the "put an AK muzzle device on your AR" makes me wonder if you've ever fired a gun in real life. A suppressor doesn't affect your ability to fire a weapon on full auto unless you're firing some shit like an AK where putting a suppressor on it burns your face with every shot.
You probably misread my post, or I was not clear enough. The point is muzzle break is more effective at improving control at full auto or rapid fire than supressor.
However, supressor _does_ provide some recoil mitigation, as it stops and slowly expands powder gases, greatly reducing or nullifying their impulse.
Pgas=Vgas (higher than bullet V0) x Mpowder
For M855 Mpowder = 1.7 g or 26 gr for you burgers, Mbullet=4 g or 62 gr
Therefore a good supressor can reduce your recoil impulse by a third or so.
Muzzle break, OTOH, have a theoretical maximum effectiveness of about 120-140% - I dont remember exact values, it was backk in the uni in external ballistic course. Yeah, it can make your gun recoil forward. Practical designs which don't kick up a ton of dust and rupture your neighbour eardrum have 50-60% efficiency.
So, practical muzzle break is about 2x as effective as prractical suppressor in reducing recoil.
>put an AK muzzle device on your AR
That's LITERALLY what US Army did back in the 80s when they felt fed up with AR15 derivatives and were trying to replace or at least improve M16. Did you ever opened pic1 in my post?
Also I specifically made a point of using whatever effective muzzle device one can find and gave an AR-native candidate, PA AFAB (or EFAB if you want that extra exquisite looking 3%).
>AK where putting a suppressor on it burns your face
Close fitting ballistic glasses are your friends. Still a stinky endeavor, but supressed subsonic Saiga-9 is neat.
>ever fired a gun in real life
Wrong. It just some theory may seem contrintuitive or unothrodox, while still being true.
>>2596>Stamped is better, but milling is cheaper
You have that absolutely backwards. Milling will always be stiffer then a stamped sheet. Just use basic logic and/or research it.
>Also AR are not milled, they are drop forged.
They're both, but even the forged ones are milled.
>>2601>Milling will always be stiffer then a stamped sheet
For a given weight stamped part will always be stiffer than milled due to strain hardening.
>>2602>For a given weight stamped part will always be stiffer than milled due to strain hardening.>for a given weight
Ok if weight is your main concern, whatever, we're talking about which gun is going to be stiffer(durable, accurate), a forged/milled AR or a stamped AK(or a milled AK for that matter.) That's why the PSG-1 adds extra metal to the outside of the receiver to stiffen it.
>Stamped is better, but milling is cheaper
Absolutely wrong on the price. Look it up. Stamping is the cheaper method.
B/c G3 receiver were not that rigid to begin with. Lenghtwise-cut pipe loses 90% of its rigidity, and G3 is exactly that. AK receiver, being a box reinforced with ribs and several transverse axles, is far more geometrically rigid/stable to begin with. The only (somewhat) weak part of the design with regard to accurcy/stability is handguard. Free-floating handguard nearly eliminates PoI drift from different shooting positions - both on AK and AR.
>which gun is going to be stiffer(durable, accurate)
Of no practical concern. Soviet AK-74s are still going durable and (reasonably - say, 3 MOA) accurate, and when they aren't, it's not due to "flimsy" receiver - it's due to barrel wear after 10 or 20 thousands of 5.45.
No one needs a super durable ultra accurate extra long life rifle - a gun must be more accurate than its shooter, and durable enough to survive a few years of warfare. Anything more is just more useless dead mass in your hands, day in and day out.
>Stamping is the cheaper method
The tooling for a quality stamped receiver is going to cost 10x or even 100x more than tooling for milled receiver. Stamping presses, punching presses, automatic welding, punches and dies versus a single CNC machine, or even a mill, lathe and drill press. The end product of stamping will be cheaper only for really large batches - say, on the order of 100 000 rifles or more.
Not necessarily a "superior" rifle let alone making the AKs in use by Russia obsolete. See: the retarded shit the American military keeps doing with "new service rifles".
If you guys are talking stiffness/accuracy it is worth noting that the stiffness of the barrel is the most important. It is worth looking into fluted barrels and barrels with carbon inserts, both of which increase barrel stiffness. IMO there is probably some cheaper polymer that you could use as an insert for fluted barrels that would maintain both rigidity and thermal mass. Depends on what your application is anyways.
the 5.56 wounds look nasty, did they get shot with a hollow point or was it something else?
At high velocity - in other words, at close range - typical 5.56 bullet fragment very easily, so effects from large temporary cavity from hydrodynamic deceleration of high-speed projectile and purely mechanical shredding from fragments compound, tearing away good chunk of tissue.
Arm wound is from George Floyd protest, near point-blank shot from a civilian AR-15, so bullet type unknown. Yellow knee is military round, so no HP. I'm not totatally sure, though.
Communist billionaire JB Pritzker just banned AR15s and violated the 2nd Amendment. What do you commies have to say for yourselves? You idiots have metaphorically shot yourselves in the foot. There are no other gun that can beat the AR15 that Illinoisians can buy now. Prove me wrong. Pro tip: You can't!
Basically if you're a noguns an AR is the best option rifle to get into for abundant ammo and parts availability/variety. This is coming from somebody that owns an AK instead as a result of personal preference. For AKs in America you have less options and many domestic AK manufacturers are of dodgy quality control. Imports like the Serbian Zastavas and more recently Polish WBPs are considered to be some of the best quality AKs nowadays for the price. Obviously much more expensive than a budget oriented AR. That isn't to say 7.62x39 ammunition and AK magazines are hard to find. Just that you aren't going to easily assemble an AK from parts at home like you can an AR. To get a quality AK you basically are forced into buying a new complete rifle. That is unless you commission a reputable gunsmith known for building AKs to assemble one for you from a parts kit and new receiver. Which in all parts and labor is easily $2,000+. You may be able to find a used Romanian WASR for a decent price but unless you can disassemble and inspect it i wouldn't trust a used AK. Since many people shoot corrosive military surplus ammunition in AKs without cleaning them which can lead to major deterioration of the parts over time. Same goes for Mosins and SKSs. Over the years boomers treated military surplus firearms as disposable and did not properly maintain them as a result. So basically if you're gonna buy an AK buy a new imported one or know what to look for in a quality used one. Otherwise for a noguns i would say to get an AR instead since military surplus market is expensive now and a meme for the most part when it comes to firearms.
Yeah, realistically all that most people need are shotguns and handguns. An AR is just the cheapest most common semi automatic rifle. The debate between AK vs AR is pointless. Especially when some people are lucky to even own/afford any firearms to begin with.
Lol, I was kind of fucking around with my other post, but realistically, when will someone get struck by a 9mm and keep chugging? I guess we saw Buffalo shooter eat one with his body armor, but still, what is a typical 9mm clip? Like 17? I dunno, stun and hit them in the face and legs.
Normal every day civilians usually aren't shooting it out with armored mass murderers. If you're in that type of situation not armed and kitted the same or better than an attacker you're at an immediate serious disadvantage. The reason that shooter chose Buffalo is because he knew with NYS and specifically Erie county's gun control laws that most if not everyone would not be well armed or legally armed in general. Basically you aren't going to win a gunfight against an armored attacker wielding an AR defending yourself with a handgun. Especially unless you're highly trained and skiled. If you repeatedly shoot an armored attacker in the arms and legs with a shotgun it would at least give you a chance to escape or neutralize the threat. It's not like you're going to EDC a shotgun or AR and especially not in a place like New York anyhow.
Afaik each pellet of buckshot is basically the equivalent of a 9mm bullet
Those are all point blank shots though. The advantage to a shotgun over say a handgun for defense is you don't have to be as precise. Shotguns are definitely better at range more accurate than video games or other media make them out to be. The benefit is the spread of the pellets for unskilled firearms users. If you "wing" someone with a shotgun missing half the shot they'll still be fucked up by what pellets they got peppered by.
Sure, never disputed any of that. Just was replying to the guy that was talking about multiple shotgun blasts. I think one blast on any exposed area will probably take you out of commission, I reckon any pistol blast to the head will probably fell you too.
Either way, if you can score one shot, you can probably score two if you're composed.
The main thing is most armor above level III is designed to stop shotgun blasts and pistol rounds. Which is exactly why you need to train to adapt to any given situation and be accurate with your firearm. The security guard at Tops was most likely trained to aim center mass and that's it. It's not like you can use Fallout's V.A.T.S. irl and easily aim for specific moving body parts in the heat of a gun battle. It all comes down to first being comfortable and accurate with your firearm. That's the minimum amount of training you need to even consider attempting to make shots like that at range with anything besides a shotgun. It's not like when that security guard woke up that morning he thought he was going to get into a firefight let alone in one against an armored individual.
Gore is allowed provided it is spoiler-ed, thread relevant, and you give some indication as to it's content.
The other obvious advantage to shotguns for personal defense is that buckshot will not over-penetrate as much as most pistol rounds
Rittenhouse used bargain bin FMJ rounds when he installed a goatse on that guy's arm. And as someone else said they blown out knee was from a military round, most likely m193 FMJ. The velocity of 5.56 allows it to cause some nasty wounds due to fragmentation and hydro-static shock
>>2709>but realistically, when will someone get struck by a 9mm and keep chugging
This happens far more often than you might think. Handgun rounds simply don't have enough kinetic energy to reliably stop assailants when struck in non-vital organs.
How often tho?>Handgun rounds simply don't have enough kinetic energy to reliably stop assailants when struck in non-vital organs
what is a vital organ?
a few .22s aimed in the right spot will definitely disrupt if not immediately kill a person no? I mean a plate carrier only covers like two thirds of the front and back torso of a person+maybe side armour, that plus a helmet and chances are you are still going to hit someone in some unprotected areas with a few shots at close range. Even one in a limb is likely to break a bone or hit an artery or cause a temporary loss of function in that limb I would imagine. Even with a smaller caliber pistol.
The stopping power of a .357 magnum is undisputed. That's the ideal round if you're shooting in a concealed carry situation.
I have yet to see evidence that .357 is more effective in incapacitating a person compared to 9mm or say .223. A semi-automatic is gonna be better to conceal carry than a revolver.
>>1824>Low powered round
that can be fixed by getting a AR chambered in .308 winchester, making essentially a semi auto hunting rifle.
if you're gonna get a bolt action you may as well get the biggest bestest one you can like a super accurate .308 win hunting rifle with an expensive ass scope.
That is basically what a battle rifles where. Among other issues the recoil is terrible and you can't carry as much ammunition as with intermediate cartridges. They already are in service though with 7.62x51 NATO AR pattern rifles used by some designated marksmen. 7.62x51 is just a slightly modified .308 Winchester with I think a slightly lower cartridge pressure/powder load and weight.>>3235
Why? .308 isn't even a good sniping round other than it is relatively cheap in many countries.
>>3242>Why? .308 isn't even a good sniping round other than it is relatively cheap in many countries.
more powerful that 5.56 and also very common due to it being the standard north american hunting round so you can get ammo meant for bolt action hunting rifles and use it.
You'd be actually stupid to not realize if you live west of the iron curtain that the AR platform is your go-to.
>>1824>- Low powered round
Compared to what?
again, compared to what?
they're great for hunting
>>2715>most armor above level III is designed to stop shotgun blasts and pistol round
level III armor can stop lead-core 7.62x39 and 5.56
Is this thread still active? Damb I posted this one years ago as low effort reply bait
this is a very slow board
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