/AKM/ - Guns, weapons and the art of war.

>>1505
Let’s talk about the scud missile systems and how despite being an old weapon from the 70s still managed to shot down imperialist over-designed garbage which would really affect how the US go around with the recent assassination of the Quds general.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Iranian_shoot-down_of_American_drone
When did the Soviet extensive air defense system come about? How is it still so reliable that most of the world’s ballistic missile systems, vehicle and personnel AA is still based on it?

>>1506
>scud missile systems
>Used as SAMs
Fucking what? Scud missiles are short range ballistic missiles, they can't feasibly be used for SAM use unless you reconstruct the entirety of its internal structure and add a shit-ton of rudders on it.

Regardless the article you posted was a Global Hawk shot down by either an S-125 or Raad/Buk missile.

As for how the Scud so reliable? Lots of study of rockets and the prior combat experience of using MRLS' prompting short-range tactical ballistic strikes to deliver heavy strikes. Frankly its less a case of the Scud being that good - (it's an adequate missile for today) - and more a case that US air defense has been weak ever since the weapon's race moved on from AAA to missiles.
More modern soviet short/medium-range BMs like the Oka or Iskander are much better.

TL;DR: The missiles were built to be functional and simple, without fancy bullshit.

i wish i had saved the old thread :(

I heard Soviet technology is so good, some of it still gets used. Is that true?

>>1640
Search about the Soyuz program dude. It's still the most widely used rocket out there while most US programs are trashed and put in storage in only a decade.
Not to mention their pioneering unmanned probes, space stations, air defense, computer network, smart homes, and even mobile phones.
On tank technology and anti-air, the red army dotrine is designed so that any division can take down western air forrce which weapons being the basis of most non imperialist air defense.
>>1637
At least we still have the wayback machine.
https://web.archive.org/web/20190630215144/https://8ch.net/leftypol/res/2774743.html

>>1640
BTR-60s, t-55s, t-72s, SA-3 and a the every famous AK-47 are just a few systems of the USSR used today regularly.

*opens Jane's warships 1908*
Lemme tell you about how the french built French pre-dreadnoughts after the HMS Dreadnought had already outmoded them 2 years earlier

>>1754
The French are notorious for spending shit tons of money on useless outdated garbage. Most notable is their tank force. During the period from 1933-1939 France was renowned for having the "best" armoured force in the world, its tanks were on paper simply the best, the Infantry tank Char B1 was the best and most numerous heavy tank in Europe, its size also meant that it carried a two-way radio. Supplementing this was the Sa35, regarded as the best tank in the entire world, mostly due to its very good 47mm gun combined with its good armour and mobility, it was the best all-around tank, and the pinnacle of pre-war medium tank design that mid-war medium tanks would try and embody and would be furthered by MBTs. The problem with the French tanks is that although they were the best on paper, the French lacked any real practical experience in designing them. As a result French tanks were complete rubbish in an actual battle. Their guns, although very good, were slow to reload due to ALL french tanks having one man turrets, this meant that the commander was also the radio operator, the loader, and the gunner and could do none of those very well. As well French tanks had terrible off-road suspension, small ground clearance, and awkward hull shapes that tended to get them stuck in ditches or tip over on sharp inclines. As well they lacked radios beyond the B1, meaning that French tanks had to often communicate using signal flags or morse lamp. The Germans by 1939 were almost the complete opposite, their tanks were on paper dreadful, they were heavier, slower, and more lightly armed than the Allies's counterparts, with the best in service gun being the 3.7cm on the Panzer IIIs and Panzer 35(t)s/38(t)s with the 5cm universal gun being too expensive too see production at the time. However the Germans had built their tanks in cooperation with the Soviets and as such had extensive field experience with tanks, leading both the Soviets and Germans to prioritize ergonomics, off-road maneuverability, communication, and ruggedness. This meant that German tanks had 5 crewmen per tank compared to the French's 2-3. As well the brand new suspension created by Porsche allowed German tanks to travel over rough ground over large distances without needing replacement, something that French tanks found impossible due to their fragile suspension and low ground clearance. In 1940 France had 1240 "modern" tanks at its disposal with around 2000 slightly outdated tanks that could still pierce the armour of any German tank, while the German could muster only 570 modern tanks after Poland and 600 Czech models, bringing their practical strength to around 1100 tanks, the Panzer IIs and Is being redundant. However in reality the Germans had more tanks, entirely due to how divisional organization worked in both armies. In France tanks were not their own separate force, but integrated into the various arms of the army. Infantry and Cavalry tanks were not just monikers but quite literal descriptors, they were part of the Infantry and Calvary corps respectively. And they were in every single French division in the entire French army, working the same as any artillery or support division. In effect the French could muster anywhere from 20-80 tanks per division, with an experimental "Heavy" tank division mustering 200 tanks with 100 Char B1s, but only 2 of these every existed. What this meant was that the French, despite having more tanks than the Germans, were always outnumbered tanks wise. The Germans had concentrated their tanks into independent Panzer Corps, with supporting infantry and integrated aerial support to make up for heavy artillery, they were basically their own micro-army that could meet and overtake any opposing equivalent force with focus being on staying mobile. This meant that the Germans had 200 tanks per division against France's max 80 tanks per division, the French would have had to field at least 3 division for every German division, while more often they would have had to field, and coordinate 5 division to properly outmatch a single German division, and given the French's terrible communication system meant that was nearly impossible.

>>1757
Isn't that a copy+paste from the old thread? Cause I'm pretty sure I remember making that one lol.

is it true that soviets only got to space because of nazi rocket technology

>>1803
This is proven false by just a simple google search. Before ww2 the basis for multistage rockets and space flight has already been planned out by Tsiolkovsky and Korolev with even a few working prototypes in the GIRD series and later project 05 in 1933 pioneered by the same guy that designed Sputnik.
On the whole Nazi science myth is pretty much a meme made of by Cold War warriors with not much evidence behind it. The R-1 was a V-2 but the rest of the designs look NOTHING like projected nazi rocket designs.
The USA got almost all Nazi rocket scientists and tech from Peenmunde such as the nazi-sympathizing Wernher von Braun. The USSR got what were essentially lab assistants in the rocket science area.

not military, but related to the previous topic about stolen tech
>In 1988 if you wanted to buy a factory-made 8-bit home computer, it would cost several monthly wages of a young engineer.
>And it would be made mostly from outdated stolen western parts made with outdated stolen western equipment and plenty of manual labor.
>If you study what goods USSR produced you will see that almost everything was stolen(rarely licensed) from the west and just copied.
i'm guessing this is not true

>>1894
That might have some basis in reality as in 1988, Gorbashit was a huge fan Amerimutt shit so his reforms always try to emulate American trash products.

>>1894
>>1896

This reminds me that they reverse engineered gig tiger videogames to make their own with characters like the wolf and the rabbit from nu pogodi

>>1505
How effective was the Yugoslav AA systems fair against NATO during its breakup?

>>1894
The Soviet Union did reverse engineer some western tech, but most of their stuff they made/developed themselves. Their computers weren’t made of old western parts. They were designed in the USSR. Some of the design choices were influenced by stuff from the west, but most wasn’t.

>>2192
Fairly effective. The number of HARM missiles and other SEAD/AWACS based counter-systems was roughly 3x higher in expenditure than used by those same NATO forces in Iraq a few years earlier. Their airforce was fairly crippled unfortunately (old MiG-21s and export MiG-29s facing USAF F-15Es and F-16Cs with full AWACS and outnumbering them 5-1) however their SAMs were used to full potential.
SA-3s and SA-6s were the main batteries used, they would get a long-distance scan, turn off as soon as a signal as caught and launch a missle blindly in the calculated trajectory, when the missle was roughly at intersect, the RADAR was flashed on and the missile guided the final dozen meters towards targets, nullifying any RADAR dazzler systems and preventing anti-radiation missiles from finding them. On top of that an old trick use was taking a microwave and with a generator turning it on in a field. This tricked HARMs into going after it instead.
AAA was also used successfully against strike aircraft. Other than the A-10 ( I don't remember it operating there) no NATO strike craft had proper armor, meaning they were forced to do total indiscriminate strikes or inaccurate high-altitude drops.

>>2197
Ah so very similar to the AA during Nam. NATO probably fudged the numbers again just like they did during Linebacker.
>According to Dana Drenkowski and Lester W. Grau, the number of aircraft lost by the USAF is unconfirmed since the USAF figures are also suspect. If a plane was badly damaged, but managed to land, the USAF did not count as a loss, even if it was too damaged to fly again. During the operation, the USAF told the press that 17 B-52s were lost. But later, the USAF told Congress that only 13 B-52s were lost. Nine B-52s that returned to U-Tapao airfield were too badly damaged to fly again. The number of B-52s that managed to return to Guam but were combat losses remains unknown. The overall B-52 loss is probably between 22 and 27

>>2202
> the AA during Nam
Yep. Both the Yugos and the Vietnamese got very creative with their Air Defense systems during the war, as did the Syrians.
A really good example I found was this: In 1972, on December 22, a Vietnamese anti-aircraft unitshot down an F-111 with a single-barrel 14.5 mm ZPU-1. On top of that, the anti-aircraft gun had only 19 shells left when they spotted the American aircraft.

>>2321
Funnily enough there were interviews regarding this. When asked to how they did it, the gunners nonchalantly answer that the Americans on their sorties alway fly on the same path. All they had to do was timing the trajectory of the planes using their watch and shoot where the planes going to be.
Also another good example would be that time where an entire air attack got lured into a trap and get destroyed during Spring High.
https://www.historynet.com/operation-spring-high-thuds-vs-sams.htm

>Aircraft carriers
Their only real use is to act as transport and launch pads for imperialist fleets to park off the coast of a smaller country and bomb it to shit. When face with an opponent of equal technological advancement or even slightly comparable technology these carriers are sitting ducks to cruise-missiles.
https://www.quora.com/Why-have-big-battleships-e-g-USS-Iowa-and-the-Bismarck-become-obsolete-in-modern-navies/answer/Chuck-Garen

>>2384
Most modern US strategy is for asymmetrical warfare. Anything more advanced than even Iran can easily beat them to a pulp in a pitch fight.

>>2384
Well yeah, the Soviets specifically made the KH-22 to be able to sink US carriers in 2 hits max, doctrine usually called for firing in salvos but with the KH-22 they were supposed to fire only one at a time since it was guaranteed to hit its target since even modern US CRAM systems have a had time hitting supersonic munitions, plus if by some miracle the KH-22 was shot down it was designed so its fragments after destruction would continue travelling and likely either blind or damage the defence system that shot them down.

>>1505
Why does most new Russian military projects are just reboots of old Soviet ones? Like the Kirov rearmament, focus on anti-air weapons and the new shitty armata being clearly based on old Soviet object series like the 490.
Are there any hope that they’ll revive the weaponized Ekranoplan projects?

>>3486
Those large ekranoplans look cool but they're probably really expensive to operated considering they had 6 jet engines. A missile truck like the old Tu-95 is probably a better option.

The Armata has good ideas in it like simplifying logistics with the same hull for Tank, IFV, and SP artillery, but they don't have the funds to get many Armatas and they decided to cheap out and stick with using T-90 hulls for the SP artillery. Kind of defeats the purpose. War is unlikely between Russia and NATO so we'll likely never learn how good or bad the Armata design is.

Introducing the SS-18/Р-36M Воевода Inter-Continental Ballistic Missile.
To get a real understanding of the power wielded by the SS 18 this comparison gives a perspective; the Hiroshima bomb (Gun-shot type fission reaction of Ur 235) had an explosive yield of approximately 15 kilo-tonnes (KT) or 15,000 tonnes of TNT equivalent, and killed 70,000 people (at least) and affected the population of the area for decades. In comparison, a single SS-18 carries up to 10 separate thermonuclear warheads of around 750-1000 Kilotons each. Some missiles are armed with a single, humongous 20,000 KT warhead. During the early years of the missile age, the United States led in technology and numbers but by the early 1970s when the SS-18 started entering service in significant numbers, Moscow had closed the missile gap and pulled ahead. In 1990 Moscow had a stockpile of around 40,000 nuclear warheads (vs 28,000 for the US) but by just using the 3,000 warheads on its SS-18s it could wipe out all human life in the continental United States in 30 minutes or less. Codenamed Satan by NATO, the SS-18 weighs a gargantuan 209,000 kg. The highly accurate Russian missile can not only penetrate and destroy American missile silos, which are hardened to 300 psi, but its own silos are hardened to a stupendous 6000 psi, making the missile all but impregnable to a first strike. Amazingly, for a missile of its weight and length (102 feet) it can sidewind (move in a series of S-shaped curves) to evade anti-missile defenses and its micro-electronics are hardened to function even during the event of a nuclear attack, meaning even a nuclear bomb’s EMP wave won’t knock its systems out.
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A0-36%D0%9C

A short history of its creation: https://pikabu.ru/story/mikhail_kuzmich_yangel__raketnyiy_akademik_sozdatel_r36msatana_6490436

The US equivalent ICBM to these missiles are the Minuteman series and the later Peacekeeper
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGM-30_Minuteman
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGM-118_Peacekeeper
The former had no MIRV warheads in the first 2 models and its monoblock warhead had 1.2 Megatons. The 3-part MIRVs of the Minuteman III have only 171 Kilotons. The Minuteman is the only land-based ICBMs used today by the USA.
The latter has 10-12 MIRV warheads, each having 300 Kiloton warheads with the undeployed W78 warhead increasing it to roughly 335kT, roughly 1/2-1/3 the capability of the SS-18.

>>5124
>Some missiles are armed with a single, humongous 20,000 KT warhead.
This is awesome and all but holy fuck how did they cover the cost for making one of these babies?

>>5126
It's not that expensive considering the technologies. Currently the same explosive yield of the Tsar Bomba (for example) would be very easy to replicate with a much smaller (physically) unit.

Shouldn't this thread be in /tech/?

>>5253
wait nvm im retarded

I found this pro-US army site called Wearethemighty and holy fuck is it a bucket of laughs.

The Sukhoi Su-25 is now apparently a copy of the Northrop A-9 and therefore loses to the A-10 warthog because it carries less weapons. (despite not presenting any feats on the Su-25 and some vague shit on the A-10)
https://www.wearethemighty.com/articles/the-battle-of-the-tank-busters-frogfoot-versus-warthog

The idea that the Su-25 is a YA-9 ripoff is hilarious considering how they are only superficially similar. The Su-25 was the winner of a competition between Illyushin and Sukhoi based on their experience with the soviet pioneered shturmovik concept.
https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/meet-the-ilyushin-il-102-the-most-gorgeously-ugly-comb-1601030964

The 2 aircraft are honestly incomparable to one another:
https://battle-machines.org/2015/07/26/a-10-thunderbolt-ii-vs-su-25-frogfoot/

Anyone have the info on how the Greeks constantly shoot-down Turkish military planes that invade their airspace? At least some of the kills were with Soviet tech or older American tech vs the new F-16s of the Truks.

>>2384
Which explains why China is build carriers and the soviets built a lot of carriers and were planning on building nuclear powers supercarriers with similar capabilities to the Nimitz class before dissolution.

>>9067
If this is implying "Muh Soviet Imperialism" you're plumb stupid. I can agree on China however, though their current goals are more likely to secure their Seas with mobile airbases for now.

>>9067
>before the dissolution
Yeah, most of their projects by that point are just trying to one up the US with no other goals in mind. Military spending must go up and what better way to do it than building more carriers.
Most of their history the Soviets never focused their entire battle plans and fleets around the carriers like the US.
>China
Modern China is imperialist. No shit.

>>2386
>Anything more advanced than even Iran can easily beat them to a pulp in a pitch fight.
>This is what Iranians actually believe
lol

>>9120
This is easily proven with Yugoslavian Air Defense compared to Saddam's. Despite using outdated SA-3s and SA-6s, through superior training, improvisation and mildly effective tech, the Yugoslavians shot down more planes and forced NATO to use triple the number of SEAD and HARM systems compared to Iraq.

While not comparable in a fully modern context, the Japanese Navy, despite being smaller than the USA, caused major damage to it, and held out against it for 4 years straight despite resource limitations and technological inferiority mid-way into the war.

>>9069
>soviet imperalism
No one is saying that. All that I am saying is that carriers are more then imperialist death machines, they are a weapon of war. And one that is useful.
>>9114
>Yeah, most of their projects by that point are just trying to one up the US with no other goals in mind.
Not true, Soviet Carriers would allow the USSR to intervene to support Communist factions in civil Wars as well as significantly reduce American Naval Superiority in a hypothetical WW3, potentially evening gaining full control of the seas.
>Most of their history the Soviets never focused their entire battle plans and fleets around the carriers like the US.
No, but for most of Soviet history the USSR planned on building carriers or had acquired carriers. Their were plans to build carriers in the 1920s.http://www.avalanchepress.com/SovietCarriers.php
The Helicarrier Moskva was laid down in 1962. The fist Soviet carrier with fixed wing aircraft was laid down in 1970 and completed in 1975. During the dissolution of the USSR the Soviet Navy had 7 carriers.

>>9123
>they are a weapon of war. And one that is useful.
See the quora post in >>2384. Until CIWS is good enough to be 99% guaranteed to take out Air-Surface strikes and submerged strikes, they're only useful for beating down smaller countries, and as proven with Vietnam and Iraq, if you don't have land forces ready to back it up it's just wanton destruction.
>Soviet Carriers would allow the USSR to intervene to support Communist factions in civil Wars as well as significantly reduce American Naval Superiority in a hypothetical WW3, potentially evening gaining full control of the seas.
A fair point, BUT as pointed out before it is a questionable point and not worth the resources it would require.

>>9123
>Not true, Soviet Carriers would allow the USSR to intervene to support Communist factions in civil Wars as well as significantly reduce American Naval Superiority in a hypothetical WW3, potentially evening gaining full control of the seas.
Just give the beleagued country shit loads of anti ship missiles and anti air vehicles. A 10% chance of hitting is good enough as a single successful strike can permanently crippled a ship. Plus it's extremely easy to mass produce for a country like Iran for example.
But that would make the country much less reliant on the USSR which is incompatible with the Soviet realpolitik in the late 80s. Not to mention the multitude of ways the US can attack a small country other than just outright invasion.

>>9138
>Until CIWS is good enough to be 99% guaranteed to take out Air-Surface strikes and submerged strikes
CIWS aren't the only anti-missile systems on a ship though. Thier are also SAMs that can be used in anti-missile roles as well as duel purpose main guns. Both of those systems are of long enough range enough that a system on one ship can defend another. Which is why carrier groups are a thing. Also a single CWIS system can be inaccurate but when you put multiple systems on a ship they are more effective.

>>9142
>main guns
useless against anything that is supersonic
>SAMs
Long distance defense that - unless in large numbers like on the Kirov - are unable to cope with the sheer volume of fire they would be receiving
> a single CWIS system can be inaccurate but when you put multiple systems on a ship they are more effective.
I know, I was specific with the 99%. Unless we know with such certainty that not a single missile will impact, such huge RADAR reflectors are just sitting ducks to a proper deployment.

>>9146
DDG-51 type destroyers have 96 VLS cells, suppose half are carrying ESSM. Each cell can hold 4 ESSM so you're looking at 48*4 = 192 medium ranged SAMs per ship. A typical carrier battle group will have 5-6 ships (both destroyers and cruisers) carrying this many SAMs so the whole fleet will have about ~1000 SAMs for air defense. I heard that the engagement doctrine is to fire 2 SAMs at each incoming missile. So the a carrier battle group has enough missiles to shoot against an attack by 500 missiles. This is not counting the aircraft in the fleet which can also contribute to anti-missile defense.

The limitation is not number of missiles, it is the capabilities of the radar systems. How many targets they can track, and how many targets they can engage. I've heard the older versions of ESSM required the ship illuminate the target using radar, and DDG-51 has 4? target illuminators so each ship can only engage 4 targets at a time. Given the speed of anti-ship missiles, the combat time for each ship is limited. The newer ESSM have active radar homing so they do not rely on the ship to keep the target illuminated, this in theory should greatly increase the number of targets one ship can engage. Still, the quantity of missiles is not the problem here. The problem is how many incoming missiles can be engaged and the limited time in which this engagement can happen. A saturation attack does not require 500 missiles, but it's not as easy as you say to overwhelm fleet air defense.

I'm going to leave out the long range missiles but keep in mind carrier escorts will have long range SAMs that can also contribute to anti-missile defense.

>>9121
>forced NATO to use triple the number of SEAD and HARM systems compared to Iraq.
Here's the thing, though, the US can easily afford to do that. The amount of money, training, and materiel they have is simply unparalleled by any military organization in the world. No one is going to beat the US in combat anytime soon.

>>9161
>the US can easily afford to do that
Against Yugoslavia, but not against a larger country with BETTER systems. countries at Iran's level or higher would be far too much trouble to strike without the full support of the UN and NATO.

>>9171
>Against Yugoslavia, but not against a larger country
I think you underestimate the sheer size of the US arsenal and the quality of the hardware involved. The US has about 1400 more combat aircraft than its next biggest rival, Russia. They receive more pilot flight time, maintenance, and can be replaced at a much faster rate. It has more aircraft carriers, 11 and more being built compared to its closest rival, China, which has two. The carriers are also newer, better-equipped and have better-trained crews.
I mean, in every single sense, the US is a behemoth. This idea that the US is going to lose against any single nation is just silly. Would it cost more? Yes, but militarily, there is no defending a nation against the US. If they are determined in toppling your government they will do it as long as it's politically expedient. This is why a lot of nations cozy up to nuclear powers like Russia, because they know the Russians and the US won't fight each other directly. Realistically speaking, there is no way anyone is going to stave off a US invasion, even if they had no allies, and they have plenty of those.

>>5124
I love ICBMs because they are completely useless, since nuclear bombs aren't real. Beautiful megatoys.

>>9177
Your description lacks important details.
Air superiority is meaningless in the face of proper Air Defense as has been proven in modern times. The USA was actively waging war with North Vietnam yet its progress was terrible and losses even more so, and this was a Vietnam that had old SAMs from Soviet stockpiles alongside WW-2 weapons and stolen US equipment. They had no cruise-missiles or mobile SAMs or large ships, yet the USA suffered enormous losses to little gain. Iraq was easy because there was no organization or proper training.

Stop hyping up the US army. Outside of the special forces and groups like the Marines, the majority aren't much to look at. The majority are literal college-students who entered the force for G.I. benefits.

>carriers are also newer, better-equipped and have better-trained crews.
Again read the fucking quora post. They address ALL of this. 45 minutes is how long those carriers survive against any country with cruise missiles and a sufficiently sized and armed navy/army/airforce. The majority of Iraq tank and air-plane kills were literally abandoned vehicles who's crew wasn't even battle ready or willing to fight. Compare this to the VIetnamese or Yugos.

Unlike with the USSR where the numbers of aircraft and tanks mattered, since they covered the majority of Eurasia, the USA is isolated on a continent it controls and has to send its troops and forces out, which means transport and supply considerations. Why do you think they were so adamant on Japanese, Hawaiian and Korean military bases? That is the only reason they need carriers to "forward-deploy". Against China those carriers are fodder and so are their AEGIS cruisers. The same goes for Russia and to an extent India. Iran having only 1 border with the shallow and narrow Gulf of Arabia/Red Sea has a very good chance of defending itself against Carrier deployments, as its land-based cruise-missile systems can pick them off.

>>9182
>Air superiority is meaningless in the face of proper Air Defense
You clearly do not understand electronic warfare or SEAD and DEAD missions.

>>9185
>You clearly do not understand electronic warfare or SEAD and DEAD missions.
Except I do. Electronic Warfare can only do so much. SEAD and HARMs were used extensively in Vietnam. They reduced losses BUT, considering they faced outdated systems and hurriedly trained crews, these loss reductions are not enough. In Iraq they lacked proper air defenses and air-defense tactics and were picked off easily despite an only slight numerical superiority in terms of aircraft. In Yugoslavia, a country much smaller than Iraq and with similar military tech but better training and set-up, the SEAD systems were much less effective, despite NATO air forces being numerically superior by several times and severe infighting in the country.

>>9185
The idea "the bomber will always get through" was disproven in WW-2. Without full air-support by fighters and electronic warfare, a manned strike aircraft has little chance of getting into airspace defended by even a moderately technological military force. On the water however, air-defenses are no enough because they're all centrally located. AEGIS Cruisers specifically turn into huge RADAR reflectors when a carrier formation is under attack to confuse and attract missiles to target them. The Carrier itself lacks anything above rudimentary air defenses and an armored deck, which is useless against any Soviet/Chinese/Iranian cruise missile which are all heavy enough to break through with kinetic force alone (let alone the warhead).

The US navy lacks such anti-ship missiles, with the Tomohawk being its only real cruise missile of major use and that's fodder.

>>9182
>North Vietnam
This isn't the 60s. The tech gap has only grown, and it isn't as if the US doesn't have plans to counter air defenses. Military science is something they pursue relentlessly. Nothing will ever be like Vietnam again.

>. Outside of the special forces and groups like the Marines
Marines aren't special operations. Please read more on this.

>The majority are literal college-students who entered the force for G.I. benefits.
I take it you've literally never been involved with the US military. Even if this were the case, and it's not. The average US soldier and marine receives more, better-funded, training than anyone outside NATO and maybe inside. The exercises are bigger, the equipment is better, and the NCO corps, the ones that actually carry out training set by the officers, has about 18 years of combat experience. There is no comparison.

>Again read the fucking quora post. They address ALL of this. 45 minutes is how long those carriers survive against any country with cruise missiles and a sufficiently sized and armed navy/army/airforce. The majority of Iraq tank and air-plane kills were literally abandoned vehicles who's crew wasn't even battle ready or willing to fight. Compare this to the VIetnamese or Yugos.
This is very optimistic, and relies on the US risking carriers to begin with. This scenario is simply not going to happen.

>Iran having only 1 border with the shallow and narrow Gulf of Arabia/Red Sea has a very good chance of defending itself against Carrier deployments, as its land-based cruise-missile systems can pick them off.
Again, I think you overestimate the ability of Iranian defenses, and seem to think a US invasion would start with them showing up in the gulf, and not deploying forward elements specifically to facilitate movement in the gulf.

>>9205
>The tech gap has only grown
No it hasn't SAM tech has not stopped improving and neither have counter-counter-measures. FFS Yugoslavia shot down an F-117 with an SA-3 and damaged 2 others. This was the 90s and they faced F-15s, F-16s, F-18s and other aircraft of the new generation against SA-3 and SA-6 units primarily.
>Marines aren't special operations
You read more I said, special forces AND groups like Marines. The Marines are not standard military, I know the difference between their training and army training is enormous.
>Military science is something they pursue relentlessly
And their opponents are just sitting with their asses in the air waiting and not preparing against it?
>you've literally never been involved with the US military
As a soldier? God no. However I do know or knew people who have served in the US military and am well aware of its basic functionality, its not secret after all. Hell the most secrecy is usually around covering up failures and unsavory missions.
>The average US soldier and marine receives more, better-funded, training than anyone outside NATO
Better funded? Yes, mostly because everything is overpriced
More? Not much more than any comparable country, like Israel, Russia or China.
Throwing money at something does not equal better, the F-35 is evidence of that.
>exercises are bigger
Russia did several gigantic exercises in the past few years, parallel to NATO, as has China and India. The USSR's exercises were so vast that they were the world's largest even today.
>equipment better
Hah, no. Only frontline troops going overseas or specialized groups like Marines, tank-crewmen and motorized infantry get proper equipment from the get-go.
>very optimistic, and relies on the US risking carriers
FFS you're just shifting goal posts. The US cannot feasibly project its power without carrier transport or large permanent bases. Given that we are discussing carriers, that is the focus. Those carriers, by approaching an enemy with sufficient fire-power are sitting ducks. It's that simple
>I think you overestimate the ability of Iranian defenses
Hardly. They're no super-power, but they have plenty of modern tech and large armed forces
>seem to think a US invasion would start with them showing up in the gulf
Hardly, but they would have to enter the Gulf at some point if they were to be useful, thus Carriers are near useless in the conflict until after land-based subjugation, which was my entire point.
>deploying forward elements specifically to facilitate movement in the gulf
Bud, I've studied the Gulf-Wars, I'm aware of how this shit works. You're not the only one who lived through the 90s.

https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1195766
Post defending the Yak 38 in response to BlackTailDefense's video on it.

>>12234
Armenian you arse. It's not that hard to spell
>drones
You mean like the last dozen local conflicts through out the world? The lesson is old. Moreover drones only made an impact by having numbers and the Armenians lacking them because of spiteful Israeli suppliers and negligent Russian ones.

>>12241
This was the first large scale use of drones in a symmetrical conventional war. Also is showed the failure of modern SAM systems to deal with them.

>>12244
>showed the failure of modern SAM systems to deal with them.
Modern SAMs like the Pantsir system handled them fine, the problems were with older, larger systems, created to take on fighter jets, large cruise missiles and bombers.

>>12247
These systems were unable to stop drone attacks from occurring only slow them down. Clearly SAM systems aren’t the silver bullit that they were thought to be. New air defense systems such as AA artillery, lasers and interceptor drones will need to be developed, until then air superiority will determine the fate of the ground war.

Why are e-celebs on miltech so fucking biased? Any videos on any vehicles use only one source that they found that justified their beliefs.
Take that faggot spookton for example. One terrible book that somehow he represented as the end all be all consensus.

>>9182
>Air superiority is meaningless in the face of proper Air Defense
Oh boy did the Azeris end this meme

>>9188
>"the bomber will always get through" was disproven in WW-2
but it was reproven in 2020

>>2197
>meaning they were forced to do total indiscriminate strikes or inaccurate high-altitude drops.
it was clearly enough

>>12284
e-celebs care about maximizing their popularity while minimizing their work

>>12286
the Armenians def didn't have a proper air defense though

>>12292
they had over 50 S-300s

>>12293
Artesh had a non-integrated air defense network using AD systems from the 80s
aside from one maybe hit on an S300 Armenia didn't even deploy them because they were trying not to escalate the conflict, in the same fashion that Armenia didn't deploy their army proper to NK

Thougts on the H-20. It looks like its gonna be a serious march for the B-2.

>>12331
Pretty much going to be an exact copy since the thing was built from a crashed B-2 China bought a few years ago. Bombers especially tactical ones are overrated.

>>12332
I'm pretty sure China didn't buy the crashed B-2

>>12334
Not bought from the US themselves that for sure ;)

>>12345
any new stealth bomber is gonna look lime the B-2, the new US bomber is just the B-2 but smaller to make it cheaper.

>>12346
>to make it cheaper
Hah, keep dreaming.

>>12347
compared to the B-2 anything is cheaper

>>12349
It's going to be more expensive as it goes through "development"

>>12288
>The entire force of NATO is bombing you 24/7.
Yeah no shit, that's a forgone conclusion, and not the point at all.
>>12287
No it wasn't. Drones weren't hit because there were no air defenses to speak of.

>>12293
>>12286
There was no integrated Air Defense system and S-300s are built for targeting things like ballistic missiles, cruise missiles and manned aircraft, not some tiny-ass drone. Not to mention teams from the Armenian side literally sat on their ass after launching missiles and got hit back by remaining drones and artillery in the area.

>>12717
>S-300s are built for targeting things like ballistic missiles, cruise missiles and manned aircraft, not some tiny-ass drone.
They can still be neutralized with information warfare. Israeli spies were caught red handed when they tried to spy on the coastal S-300 defense line of Vietnam (they got away however). This experience later gave them an edge in making the S-300 systems in Syria almost useless.

>>12728
>They can still be neutralized with information warfare.
Right, with the computer hardware they don't have? Armenia is a poor country with little resources. People are still using laptops that are archaic and 10+ years old. A Mercedes=Benz or Lexus car is considered a luxury item for the rich and a smartphone is cherished and carefully cared for.
>Israeli spies were caught red handed when they tried to spy on the coastal S-300 defense line of Vietnam
Vietnam has a much bigger infrastructure, military and resources, Armenia is the opposite.
>This experience later gave them an edge in making the S-300 systems in Syria almost useless
True, but that's SEAD and electronic counter-counter-measures being used, not a cast-iron argument against Air Defense being effective. As I posted before, a PROPER Air Defense is far more effective than any individual SAM system. The Armenians did well, but they lacked the infrastructure and resources for a proper defense against the richer Azeri.

the most important lesson from the Azeri-Armenian war that no picked up because "muh drones" is that artillery is still the king of conventional warfare. Most of the major Azeri breakthroughs and pushes were due to focused artillery rather that drone actions

Combat weight - 27 tons; crew - 4; Weapon: smoothbore 152.4 mm M69 gun, 14.5 mm HMG;

The ammunition for the cannon consisted of 22 rounds with armor p iercing sabot rounds and HE-f ragmentation and HEAT shells.

armor protection - vs HMGs and 57 mm gun for turret

diesel - 353 kW (480 hp); maximum speed - 63 km / h .

Due to the increased length of the gun barrel (9045 mm), the initial velocity of the armor-piercing-sabot non-rotating projectile was 1710 m/s, and the direct shot range at the target with a height of 2.0 m reached 2050 m. The maximum pressure in the barrel was 392 MPa (4000 kgs/sm2) . An APFSDS projectile weighing 11.66 kg at a distance of 3000 m punched vertically positioned armor plate with a thickness of 310 mm. The gun had an ejection system for purging the bore after the shot and a slit-type muzzle bra ke, thanks to which the maximum recoil length was only 300 mm. To ensure high rate of fire, shots were placed in a drum ammorack, and the barrel was automatically brought to the loading angle for the period of loading.

A drawing and details (rus) - https://btvtinfo.blogspot.com/2019/06/152-120.html

>>1505
>4949
Damn, checked

not exactly tech, but I thought this was interesting

>>12931
Nice m8. Thanks! I had a similar one for Soviet reconnaissance troops but I lost it.

>>12729
Air defence can decrees an enemy's air power, but it is no substitute for air superiority and while it will (is utilized properly) shoot down some planes, most planes will make it through the defense, then they will bomb the SAM systems and then your air defense is much weaker. SAM systems can only properly work if combined interceptor aircraft. Otherwise SAM systems will be bombed.

>>13279
>ost planes will make it through the defense, then they will bomb the SAM systems
No they won't - not when facing proper training and tech.
In Iraq the lack of training made any and all tech very meager and therefore open for NATO forces despite a comparatively large numbers.
In Yugoslavia the problem was that they were compromised on the ground and were overwhelmed with sheer numbers. That's not an issue in an even fight.

MANPADS and short range missiles paired with AAA kept low-flying and small targets unable to penetrate airspace ad were positioned on the frontlines. Medium range ones handled both and were slightly behind lines and Long range ones were comfortably out of reach. Yugoslavia had only MANPADS, manual AAA and some long range antiques like the SA-6 and SA-3. the S-300 is a strategic SAM designed to hit large long range targets or large numbers of smaller targets.

Obviously if you send units out without the appropriate support there will be gaps.
>SAM systems can only properly work if combined interceptor aircraft
Not exactly true, but Interceptors are important.

>>13280
Without interceptor aircraft SAM systems can be bombed with anti-radiation missiles, forcing the defender to turn off their radar (making SAMs useless) or have their systems bombed. Once SAMs are destroyed high and medium flying aircraft will obliterate the rest of an enemy's defense. Air-defence networks without interceptor aircraft are no substitute for air superiority.

>>13289
>antiradiation missiles
Which as seen in Yugoslavia can be negated and countered.
>have their systems bombed
You assume they'll be allowed to. Can't get a firing solution when you can't get in range without being blown out of the sky.
>Air-defence networks without interceptor aircraft are no substitute for air superiority
Read CIA data on Soviet air defense, the entire reason the USA has to have AWACs, and massive numbers of auxillary aircraft is because even mediocre foes would pulverize their forces without any backup.

>>13293
>Which as seen in Yugoslavia can be negated and countered.
Except that they worked well enough.
>You assume they'll be allowed to. Can't get a firing solution when you can't get in range without being blown out of the sky.
Some bombers will get shot down but some will make it through, and those that make it through will destroy the SAM systems.

If Aircraft carriers are a meme, why is China planning to build at least 6 of them, and basically copying US carrier doctrine down to the trim?

Also what does any of this have to do with the worker struggle?

>>13294
>workd well enough
&ltmodern HARMS and AWACS facing a broken up air defense made up of decades old SA-6 and SA-3 units and microwave ovens were used 3 ties over compared to a much larger defense network like in Iraq
It was a fucking embarrassment.
>bomber will get through
Debunked decades ago in WW-2. The only way it gets through is through overwhelming numbers, which outside of the USA and USSR no-one really had. The USA also lacked he numbers to pull that tactic on the USSR head-on. That's why airdefenses are stacked and layered.

>>13309
Aircraft Carriers are tools of spreading imperial force. China seeks to build them so that its airforce will have greater spread across the globe, counter US imperialism. The USA also lacks decent cruise missile systems that would damage an aircraft carrier, while China does have cruise-missles capable of sinking a carrier.
>copying US carrier doctrine down to the trim
Because they're attempting symmetrical response to the USA.

This doesn't stop making carriers a meme however.

>what does any of this have to do with the worker struggle
It's a thread about Soviet military technology and their wartime use (obviously by proletarians).

The B-534's reputation is mixed. To most people, the Avia was a national pride, a modern plane for its time with sleek design, and with a looming German threat, a fair match against the Bf-109s (original models). And while it certainly is a looker, and it did show everyone in the 1937 Zurich Air Races that it was a capable biplane around - getting all second places, behind the 109 - the story behind it is a bit darker. When the plane was being tested during trials, Avia and its owner company, Škoda, were competing against 3 other design bureaus. While at first glance it might have seemed like a fair fight that the superior design won, reality is that the B-534 was quite flawed, and Škoda utilized its monopoly over most branches of industry to get the contract for themselves. This included bribing material suppliers to cut their deliveries to competitors, and what's worse, signing a contract with Hispano-Suiza, making Škoda officially the only legal licensed producers of their powerplants in the country. The competing bureaus that already counted on receiving the French engines now got kicked in the shin and had to do with inferior domestic engines, offering only 60% of the horsepower of the HS12 Ybrs. Nevertheless, the trial results were pretty close, and had the other companies have access to the same engine, the B-534 would likely be forgotten by history. It's reputation also isn't helped by the fact that it had a tendency to deform its upper wing during high speeds that would cause it to enter a lethal dive. When the army announced the B-534 would now also serve as a "battleplane" (CAS), which would include dive bombing, in a typical Czech fashion, Avia's engineers would sneak in under the cover of the night, fix the faulty wings, and then act like nothing happened.

>>13310
>The USA also lacks decent cruise missile systems
This is a blatent lie, the is has more cruse missiles then any other country on Earth.

>>13309
carriers aren't a meme, the USSR built them, and planed to build supercarriers before Gorby fucked evreything up

Why are Russian AA missiles failing so hard in Syria? Whenever Israel attacks, they always get away with no casualties, despite syria having the most advanced Tor, s-400, etc. Systems. Same thing when turkey attacked, most Syrian air defences were knocked out through conventional bombing, which is supposed to be impossible against a SAM net.

>>14507
the armenian-azeri war proved that sams are useless without interceptor aircraft

>>14510
Maybe, but it's not certain. Sending manned aircraft up against drone is a cost losing proposal. A drone requires far less fuel and maintenance compared to manned aircraft. Sending up interceptors means bleeding fuel and potentially losing a pilot. However, it might be possible that with a few sorties of aircraft, the other side will be discouraged from using drones, thus reducing the future number of sorties required.

>>14513
Quality of us cruse missiles isn't as good as Russian ones, but its not that much worse, also their is a huge difference in the amount of missiles the US has compared to Russia or China.
>>14512
I though you were talking about Israeli strikes using F-16s and F-35s. Against drones massive amounts of AA guns should be sued because AA is cheap and drones fly low. SAMs are very poor against low flying targets. As for strikes done by Isreli F-16s and F-35s, Syria should deploy interceptor aircraft in coordination with SAMs in an integrated air defense. This is what North Vietnam did and if North Vietnam only used SAM then US bombing runs would have been much more effective.

>>14514
Different anon.
>Against drones massive amounts of AA guns should be sued because AA is cheap and drones fly low.

This is one of those theories that I agree with and find plausible, but I've not seen evidence of it working. I've only seen examples of air attack (with ground attack aircraft) wiping out ground formations.

>>14515
AA is less effective against conventional manned aircraft, especial if said aircraft are flying at high altitudes. But in those conditions SAMs are more effective. The truth is that their is no silver bullet in air defense. Relying on a single system will leave you extremely vulnerable when (not if) enemy forces attack you in way that said system is not optimized to defend from. The S-300 isn't meant to defend against low-flying low mass aircraft, so thats what the Azeris used. North Vietnam understood this and had AA, SAMs, and interceptors. Serbia also had this, but Serbia lost because the US thought that the loses they were facing while significant were replenishable. Syria and Armenia don't have proper multilayered air defense systems and as a result it is extremely easy to bomb them.

>>14516
From some casual wiki skimming (not sure how reliable that info is) typical ranges of cannons with calibers of 20mm to 90mm is between 5km and 10km. Man-portable anti-tank missiles have around 5km range but air launched anti-tank missiles have 10km to 20km range which puts them outside of gun engagement range for ground based AA. This means ground AA can effectively prevent drones from carrying cheaper, lighter, short-ranged AT missiles and also deny airspace to smaller drones that cannot carry longer-ranged/heavier missiles. However larger drones that can carry missiles like AGM-114 can attack ground targets from outside of gun range of ground AA. So an effective drone defense will require both a gun and missile system, and the missile must have an effective range of 10km to 20km along with a radar with even greater range for finding and tracking targets.

Several of these hybrid gun/missile AA systems already exist like 2K22 and PGZ09. But I'm not aware of any being used in action. Interestingly, there are many AA systems with about 10km engagement range (which is less than the range of several air launched AT missiles) still in service. I don't know if this is because the ground forces of most countries are low priority for receiving equipment upgrade, or if a 10km range can offer some degree of protection against air threats. I can see how even if the AA system cannot attack the launch platform at 20km, it can still prevent the attacker from getting closer than 10km, forcing it to launch for further away. This gives time for ground units to evade or for AA to try and shoot down the missile.

>>14517
AA is very good to defend against drones, also it forces conventional aircraft to fly high where they have to rely on guided bombs or use inaccurate dumb bombs. Unless your going up against a superpower AA is pretty useful, but still not a silver bullet. The F-16 and F-35 have an altitude ceiling of 15 km and the U-2 has an altitude ceiling of 21 km while the Mig-29 has an altitude ceiling of 18 km, and the Su-57 and J-20 both have an altitude ceiling of 20km. That said, most of the time these aircraft are flying at lower altitude to avoid radar detection. Its very rare that these aircraft fly at their ceiling.

kirov

>>14546
reporting!

>>14546
best looking modern ship

Can someone debunk this please, tired of seeing it spamed on 4/k/

>>14546
Were there any plans before the union collapsed to try and upgrade these babies? Seeing most of them being dismantled and the last one leaking radioactive waste everywhere is just disheartening.
Wish that some of Russia’s allies can buy them up just for study and make smaller non nuclear versions.

>>14921
MiG mostly saw action when used by third world countries with subpar pilots. Guess against who they fought?

>>14921
iirc it was debunked through many effortpost demonstrating that US basically hide all its air casualties making them seem like "maintenance problems", and every time competent pilots fought during the day soviets had the advantage

>>14921
The US could simply just make better planes than the soviets could afford to do, the us was almost always ahead in radar, and it’s planes were more reliable and had better engines that needed to be replaced much less often.

You just can’t make this shit up. Lmao.
An F-35B Accidentally Shot Itself With A Gatling Gun
https://wonderfulengineering.com/an-f-35b-accidentally-shot-itself-with-a-gatling-gun/
>March didn’t start well for the U.S air force when a much costly air incident took place. F-35B stealth, the most expensive fighter jet ever built to date, accidentally shot itself while flying over Arizona’s skies.

>A single unit of an F-35B costs around $135.8 million, so at first, an aircraft’s accident doesn’t sound appealing at all. The aircraft had an externally mounted Gatling gun discharge a 25mm armor cutting explosive round into itself, leaving the aircraft with damage of approximately $2.5 million, as confirmed by the military officials.

>The F-35B stealth aircraft was performing a nigh time air support mission, while during its flight, the aircraft exploded a round of fire in a self-attack scenario. Fortunately, the pilot managed to land the super-costly aircraft to the ground, but the damage done isn’t at low either.

>It was a Class-A accident, as termed by the officials, directing towards a minimum of $2.5 million of loss or the aircraft’s complete inability to make it to the skies ever again.
Such superior American engineering. Just imagine a scenario of these scrap heaps doing an air attack on Iran or The DPRK and just get their Gatling guns hacked to shoot itself.

>>14970
This is clickbait for radlibs without an ounce of military knowledge. The aircraft did not shoot itself, the round exploded in the gunpod, it was an ammunition quality control issue. Let's not fall for sensationalism aimed at liberal laymen.

>>14970
Do you know how many Soviet aircraft have exploded over the past 20 years? Shit fails, from an objective standpoint, the f 35 is the best fighter jet in the world, and it’s comparatively cheap when you compare it to the Eurofighter and French Rafael.

>>14972
Stupid faggot. Have some nuance like >>14971 instead of sucking US DoD cock.

>>14975
As I said I’m being objective, I’m just saying that you can’t write off an aircraft because of a technical failure.

>>14976
>objective
<the f 35 is the best fighter jet in the world
April 1st was 4 days ago.

>>14977
There really is nothing to compete with it, Russia can hardly get the su 57 to fly and China has like 10 j-20s which have terrible stealth characteristics.

>>14978
This is like saying there's nothing to compete w/ the 737 MAX

>>14978
>Russia can hardly get the su 57 to fly and China has like 10 j-20s which have terrible stealth characteristics.
Citation needed, but that is besides the point. You can't make any claims about the F35 being the best fighter. Maybe you could say it is the best ground attack aircraft since Israel bombed Syria using F35s. Also those alleged faults against Su57 and J20 are also examples of sensationalism aimed at people ignorant of military aircraft just like the F35 "shooting itself" nonsense.

>>14979
Ironically the 737 MAX was built in response to competition from Airbus.

>>14980
Russia genuinely has like 10 su-57s, and they still aren’t going to be nearly as stealthy as the f 35 based on its geometry, it’s also doubtful the radar is too good based on past Russian radars. The j-20 on the other hand is massive and has canards, which would further reduce stealth. Also, Chinese jet engines are still not that great.

>>14982
Why is the Su-57 geometry bad for stealth? If you are concerned about the engine duct, they could simply put a metal mesh in the engine duct to deflect radar. A metal mesh could easily be designed to block radar of specific bandwidth such as those used in air search radars. No doubt Russia has collected signals intelligence on search and fire control radars of many foreign countries (both friendly and hostile).

As for the J20, canards are no worse for stealth than traditional tail horizontal stabilizers. Assuming a frontal approach a deflected canard and a deflected tail would both spike up RCS. Proper use of composites and geometry of the metal components can further increase stealth of canards or tails. Also the J20 is only 1m (5%) longer than the F22 which allegedly has a smaller RCS than the F35 so size is not the only factor in determining stealth. I'm surprised you didn't bring up the ventral stakes, if anything, those are the main problems on the J20 when it comes to stealth.

I'll give you that Russian radars might be worse than US or Chinese radars and the Chinese engines might be worse than US or Russian ones. Still there's not enough evidence to say the F35 is superior to either competitor or superior to the F22. Other factors like maintenance and sortie rate also need to be considered when deciding which aircraft is superior.

>>14983
This is China and Russia’s first attempt at building a stealth aircraft, the f 35 had a DAS system which allows the pilot to see through the floor of the aircraft with his/her helmet, thats is amazing. It’s radar can be used to make images which a computer will automatically scan and designate targets. The infrared system was apparently so good it was able to sense a tank firing from a 100 miles away. I just can’t see Russia and China building a good stealth aircraft with Russians shotty build quality and engines, and China with borrowed Russian engines and shitty indigenous ones.

>>14984
These are claims made in sales brochures(aka manufacturer's propaganda). I'm sure you can find similar claims made in Russian and Chinese brochures as well. It's up to you if you want to believe them or not. We are lucky to live in a time where there is no need to evaluate these claims in real battle. IMO the F35's largest tangible advantage over the Su57 and J20 is that the F35 is manufactured in large numbers which allows for more opportunity to correct mistakes and develop manufacturing shortcuts. Quantity, after all, has its own quality.

>>14985
The thing that leads me to believe that the f 35 is the best is also the pilots comments, they all generally say that the information it’s able to supply the pilot is incredible, data can be fed through aerial radars, naval radars, and ground radars seemlessly, the situational awareness is incredible. It’s also not supposed to be a slouch on dogfighting either, as it can likely turn better than a loaded f 16, because it carries its weapons internally.

>>14986
That's because you've only read testimony from F35 pilots and not Su57 or J20 pilots.

>>14987
I’m not talking about those right now, it’s just the f 35 is by their testimony incredible, and both Russian and Chinese planes aren’t being produced much. IMO Russia wont be building many su 57s, they’re just too poor to support that kind of fleet. In terms of the j 20, it’s engines are going to be a major limiting factor and it’s likely it’s avionics aren’t at the f 35s level based on previous indigenous designs.

>>14986
>>14987
>>14989
The F-35 started provurment five years before the J-20 and Su-57 did. Five years ago the F-35 was extremely shit, it was unalienable, stealth didn't work, it could use most air launched missiles the US had. Most of those issues have been fixed, in five years the J-20 and Su-57 will work a lot better.

>>14998
What do you mean the stealth didn’t work? They install radar reflectors so air traffic control can see them. That’s what you’re thinking of.

>>15019
Ok?

Will girls get weirded out if I put up a poster of pic related in my room?
I like planes, but I like getting laid more.
Which one is better?

>>15039
>Will girls get weirded out if I put up a poster of pic related in my room?
no
>Which one is better?
any of them is good but I think 3>4>2>1

>>15039
>Will girls get weirded out if I put up a poster of pic related in my room?
Well that would depend on the girl in question, wouldn't it? If you like planes then have a plane on your wall, simple as. Just don't sperg out and start listing its stats or whatever. :^)

>>15039
Why photos instead of art?

>>11652
Why did the soviets use two engines just for vtol, and not position them like harriers?

>>15054
Don't like the idea of having war scenes in my living space.

Is that a german F2B on the fourth picture?

>>15057
It's Finnish

>>15066
FINLAN MENDIONED :-DDDDDDDDDD :-D :-D

hon hon hon salut

https://youtu.be/kr0s2t9uG5A
How accurate is this?

>>16583
Within a year? One week is enough.

>>1505
Why does Americans get so triggered when someone say that they contributed close to nothing in WW2? Their gay autism with lend - lease is so tiring.

>>16600
They did have some contributions, but it wasn’t as much as the USSR. The strat bombings of Germany had a big effect on Germany Industry. Without the burgers the USSR would have won, but the war would have lasted longer, and more Russians would be dead. D day though would’ve been impossible without the USSR destroying the German army.

>>16584
Naval invasions are hard. Hardest part of warfare.

US Navy released the footage of the 40,000-pound bomb explosion that triggered a M3.9 quake during a "shock trial" on the aircraft carrier USS Gerald R. Ford.

>>16799
this was so fucked up man
makes my blood boil

our labor and blood wasted to kill each other and destroy our planet even more

capitalists destroy everything they touch
ghouls

Does anyone know which jacket this is? I'm assuming it's of Soviet origin but I actually don't know.

>>14972
>from an objective standpoint, the f 35 is the best fighter jet in the worl
No it isn't except from a propaganda standpoint.

>>14922
>Were there any plans before the union collapsed to try and upgrade these babies
Yes but Gorbachev canceled it.

>>14507
Because the Syrian systems were off when Israel struck and Russians did not engage them because of their close relations to Israel. They took a dive for public relations.

>>14980
The F-35 is a pretty mixed bag, so lets review all of its charteristics.
<Stealth
The F-35's stealth is pretty powerful, it can be detected by radar but at much shorter range then the F-35 can detect non stealthy missiles and aircraft, this allows it to fire before being seen.
<Sensors, Situational Awareness, and Communications
The F-35 has very good sensors and radar, which it can pick up other planes and missiles from long ranges and it can also communicate very well with other planes and help them find targets to attack, these senors also provide very good situational awareness of what is occurring in the air and ground. The F-35 also has good tacking of ground objects such as Tanks and SAMs.
<Electronic Warfare
Arguably the category that the F-35 excels best in, it can use flares, chaff, jamming, etc very well. Thier are plans for it to begin using anti-radiation missiles as well. Its electronic warfare capabilities are similar to the dedicated electronic warfare aircraft, the E-18.
<Armaments
The F-35 can only carry internal weapons without sacrificing stealth, this heavily limits its armaments and what it can carry
<Speed
The F-35 can't fly at or above Mach 2, oftentimes F-35 fighter groups don't train at supersonic speeds.
Keep in mind that the USAAF uses an air doctrine that minimizes its weakness and maximizes its strength, The F-35, for a stealth plane, has relatively lower maintenance and is easier to produce then other stealth planes. It is a good plane, is it better then the J-20 or Su-57, probably not, but it doesn't have to be because it is produced in much larger numbers then both those planes combined. Also another mystery factor is training and doctrine, we don't know if China and Russia have better doctrine and training then the US or if they are worse at these categories. If your training and doctrine for an advanced weapons is bad, then that weapon is useless.

Are armor for warships as well as stealth systems for them completely redundant? It seems that nowadays naval weapons and rockets of even old Soviet era platforms can easily take out entire fleets if fired en masse. In special cases even a huge amount of speedboats with high explosives can do it as well.
This lead to my other question, does ground effect vehicle’s speed and maneuverability be a good solution to this problem? Or is the size will always make ships sitting ducks regardless of a different form of propulsion through water?

>>18114
>ekrano-carrier
unfathomably based
>Are armor for warships as well as stealth systems for them completely redundant?
For fighting battles, yes , but for economic reasons, it might make sense to force your enemies to spend more on heavier ammunition, if you armor up.
>my other question, ground effect vehicle
There are hyper-sonic anti ship missals, everything else is almost stationary in comparison. Ground effect vehicles are still worth it because they are much faster deployed, which means you need fewer and that makes them more economical. They also are invulnerable to torpedos and mines. Ground effect vehicles can fly over land and use a regular air port as well. And when they become useless to the military, they could have more potential for conversion to civilian use.

>>17431
The F-35's stealth is already redundant. An S-500 radar has locked onto F-35s in Syria. Every plane is vulnerable to radar, stealth just makes it invisible to older radars.

>>17431
>F-35 stealth is powerful
Reportedly its worse than the F-22 and only applies to RADAR stealth against short-wave RADAR
The rest I agree with.

>>18124
Actually older RADARs from the 60s and 70s are more likely to sense it than RADARS from the 80s-2000s due to old systems like the SA-2 and SA-3 using longwave RADAR. the USSR and Russians realized this and combined shortwave and longwave systems to pinpoint stealth targets - this with the IR trackers on their fighters would nullify most of the stealth on the F-35

>>17304
>>14922
Russia however is doing modernizations of their remaining Kirovs to a modern standard.

>>14982
>they still aren’t going to be nearly as stealthy as the f 35 based on its geometry
That's untrue, the F-35's genoetry isn't that stellar, and it's only advantage in stealth would be the turbine exits, however that is a moot point given the Su-57 was using prototype engines until recently.
>doubtful the radar is too good based on past Russian radars
Based on past RADARs and the stated layout of the aircraft, the Su-57 blows the F-35 out of the water in Air-Air sensing capability.
>>14984
>China and Russia’s first attempt at building a stealth aircraft
Russia was experimenting with stealth tech since th 80s, the F-117 was created based on tech and calculations that the USSR correctly deemed too costly for exploitation against any modern enemy, and the Su-57 was preceded by the MiG 1.44 and Su-47 which were built with stealth technologies as test vehicles.
>DAS system
So do most 5th gen aircraft including the Su-57
> The infrared system
created last year and with no actual information on its capabilities, and given the experience in IR trackers by the USSR and Russia, it is unlikey to be better than Russia.
>Russians shotty build quality and engines
Kek, Russians build planes specifically to be able to land and take off on broken down runways and areas where there can be aerial debris, they're built like tanks. The F-22 and F-35 literally have to be constantly maintained for their stealth coatings to not lose their properties.
American aircraft today are known for frailty, with the exception of the F-15.

>>16917
Afghanka is what it's called https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%90%D1%84%D0%B3%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BA%D0%B0

>>16799
The amount of fish and whales that must of injured and killed is going to be high as fuck.

>>15055
Because it wasn't enough reliable thrust, and the harriers had the same problem until the later variants.

Late Soviet Union’s military industrial complex is just so bloated. Seriously why in God’s name did they even attempt to build something like the Buran? Yes, it’s superior to the US shuttle with more economical rocket engines, better safety, and autopilot. But it’s still have all the bad qualities of a spaceplane model and costs way too much compared to the Soyuz.

What were they thinking developing such a money sink when they’ve been falling behind the US in funding for decades? Not to mention that the competing US shuttle literally have no military application outside of a propaganda tool and a way to embezzle loads of money.
>>18140
VTOL outside of transport craft was a mistake. Costing way too much fuel for what little space saving it might offer.

>>18143
>VTOL outside of transport craft was a mistake. Costing way too much fuel for what little space saving it might offer.
Yak-141 shows otherwise. Early VTOL was simply unreliable because it was unfamiliar territory,

>>18148
VTOL is too expensive
To launch fighter planes without an airfield, make a toed sled catapult. The plane is launched from the sled by a small solid fuel rocket booster, that it drops 3 seconds after launch. To land the plane with out an airfield you add a fabric para-glider wing that it deploys during landing approach maneuvers to allow for super slow flying without aerodynamic stall. Any grassfield will do as landing strip, you won't even need wheels, the sled skis will be good enough. Once the plane is landed, a new or recycled solid fuel booster is re-attached, the para-glider wing is folded back into the ejection compartment, and the refueled plane is hoisted back onto the catapult trailer.

If you are very adventurous you can replace the landing glider wing with a breaking booster rocket that fires the moment the jet touches ground during landing.

This is functionally the same as a vtol system except for the ability to hover and it's much cheaper.

>>18143
>Seriously why in God’s name did they even attempt to build something like the Buran?
The story is actually hilarious:
The US space shuttle was such an inane and compromised delivery on the idea of a reusable spaceplane that the soviets couldn't believe it was anything but a cover story. Here the Americans were risking 7 astronauts and a billion dollar piece of equipment to toss up a few communication or spy satellites a year? Nonsense. Utter nonsense. Obviously that's a flimsy cover story for a military vehicle, perhaps a bomber that could directly attack Moscow. So how do you figure out the capabilities of such a bomber? Well, you've got to build one yourself.

Soviet designers even wanted to differ more from the general configuration of the Shuttle because they figured they could do a better job, but they were overruled because the whole point was to figure out what the American one could do. It's the perfect combination of the late Soviet gerontocracy's terror at the increasingly bellicose Americans, and America just doing plain stupid things.

>>18148
It’s not even about being reliable or not. It’s more about fuel consumption and maintenance. The Yak-141 and F-35 were designed by a lot of the same people and still consumed a ton of fuel. Same reason that the US had to force F-35s into its allies throat because they know that it’s something that countries like Japan can’t really maintain.

So what do people think about the "Su-75" 'Checkmate'? (Russian name is Razgrom meaning Utter Destruction.)
https://www.rt.com/russia/529762-check-mate-fighter-stealth-jet/

It's clearly a response to the F-35A fighter - a single engine stealth plane for cheap export supplementing the Su 57 PAK FA air superiority, All-purpose fighter. The plane's under-scoop is reminiscent of the Boeing X-32 but the similarity is superficial, in the way the similarity between the F-22 and Su-57 exists.

The plane's significance is more than just a change in military doctrine (Soviet/Russian fighters have remained reliable 2-engine planes for decades from the 4th generation onward). Advanced, cheap weapons systems are going to be for sale to non-Western countries by Russia and China. This is significant, because this means the US military will not be able to impose their will on places like Iran, which will mean that the USA's technological superiority is being nullified.

thoughts on mustard?
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1ZBQ-F-yktYD4m5AzM6pww

Here are some of his USSR-oriented vids:

>Did The Soviets Build A Better Space Shuttle? The Buran Story
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwLx4L5NRU0


>The Strangest Aircraft Ever Built: The Soviet Union's VVA-14
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UD7xiWWs-bs

>What Happened To Giant Ekranoplans?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVdH_dYlVB8

>>18173
Every time Russia or the USSR try to one-up the US they always make a decent product with less funding. However trying to follow the US’ idiotic and profit driven designs is a stupid gambit destined to wasted resources that can be allocated somewhere else.
Hell, we’ve seen them failed at this already. In the 80s, the US under Reagan pumped out so many shit projects that forced the USSR’ R&D to go into overdrive. However the US can afford such a sink in funding but the USSR can’t, do they got ground to dust.
A better strategy is to just do what the PRC is doing now. Just have their spies steal US designs wholesale, skipping development entirely and make a few hundred copies with a fraction of the original price tag.

>>18178
>the US can afford such a sink in funding
Ironically it couldn't, the USA itself has been feeling the impacts of this military spending for decades at this point.
>USSR
Ah but Russia isn't the USSR, it's capitalist and makes good profit off of a private military-industrial complex, so a light stealth fighter half the price of an F-35 is a perfect opportunity to have mass produced contenders on the market to disrupt the USA's sales.
>have their spies steal US designs wholesale, skipping development entirely and make a few hundred copies with a fraction of the original price tag.
I find it funny how salty /pol/ can be about these kinds of things, given that China is being smart about this.
In regards to spending in the 80s, the percentage of the GNP that the USSR used was remarkably lower than that of the USA throughout the Cold War and even the 80s. The reasn Soviet R&D suddenly went off budget was because of Gorbachev's inane decisions that essentially threw money down the drain (such as the destruction of the Train ICBMs or selling of the navy to South Korean scrapyards.

>>18183
>Ironically it couldn't, the USA itself has been feeling the impacts of this military spending for decades at this point.
Feeding it to the crumbling infrastructure, resolving healthcare and garbage public education yes. However the Soviet back then even during the reign of pizzaman still had the government resources towards welfare, housing and the myriad of other aspects. This made them stalled and petered out much faster than the US. It’s one of the things that makes the Brezhnev administration the stagnant one. The west knows that they can have leeway in shoving shit down their people’s throat because any meaningful resistance got destroyed to even the the unions.
>it's capitalist and makes good profit off of a private military-industrial complex
True, the modern Russian oligarchy makes money hand over fist buy producing recycled Soviet designs. Like the Armata. But like selling a car, you have to have good PR or an army of shills to uncritically buy your stuff. So it’s better for them to produce new products to arm the army and sell the surplus old customers like MENA, India, DPRK, Belarus, Central Asia and Vietnam.
>I find it funny how salty /pol/ can be about these kinds of things, given that China is being smart about this.
Yeah, I don’t get it either. Didn’t they remember that the rise of the US as an industrial powerhouse was due to them stealing European inventions and selling them at a lower price as well. It’s literally how their beloved free market works.
>such as the destruction of the Train ICBMs or selling of the navy to South Korean scrapyards
Didn’t he also sell a warship to fucking Pepsi at one point or was that Brezhnev?

>>18185
>petered out much faster than the US
Frankly, I think if they actually applied cybersyn (which was rising up in the 80s only for Gorbachev to crush it yet again, they might have won out in that regard.
>better for them to produce new products to arm the army and sell the surplus old customers
True, but they're running out of surplus and beginning to imitate the USA's policies of creating export models en masse for the market overall.
> US as an industrial powerhouse was due to them stealing European inventions
The most hilarious part is that capitalist countries continued to do so to one another throughout the 20th century
- https://lefty.booru.org/index.php?page=post&s=view&id=8111
- https://lefty.booru.org/index.php?page=post&s=view&id=10045
>Pepsi ship
That was Khruschev, as part of Pepsi's bid to be the only accepted source of foreign pop-soda for the USSR.

>>3025
>That was Khruschev, as part of Pepsi's bid to be the only accepted source of foreign pop-soda for the USSR.
<Hey we need a new soda. Instead of making our own, let’s sell our ships in exchange for it!
That has to be the most retarded thing cornman has ever done outside of planting crop in Siberia.

With the rapidity of collapse of the Afghan puppet to the Taliban in mere days, somewhat even quicker than South Vietnam before it. I now firmly believe that if the US ever leave ROK to its own devices it will fall in weeks. All that bullshit about superior South Korean equipment and technology seems even more of a puffed up lie than ever before.

American WWII training videos are so cool. I don't know what else I should add here. I'm going to post a couple on various topics. Some might be more useful than others.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWYqu1Il9Ps

>>3027
That much is obvious in he face of south Vietnam too, buuut I' think the socioeconomics are still different.

>>3027
The korean case is kinda different because majority of koreans want to be unifiend even if its a 1 contry 2 systems kinda of deal, if the us left SK one second they would force an unification

Russia releases video of an S-500 launch. It looks verey impressive in terms of launch speed compared to the S-300 and 400 and the range is even larger than prior SAM systems.

>US Navy can't fucking track its ships right or deliberately violates borders
<N-no they qeren't at [X] location, it's those damnd russkies making our data say otherwise.
Jeeze the cope is hilarious
https://archive.ph/5lvTC

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Psz42TkcUrQ
>burgers think WW3 will be fought without soldiers
>>3022
>A better strategy is to just do what the PRC is doing now. Just have their spies steal US designs wholesale, skipping development entirely and make a few hundred copies with a fraction of the original price tag.
The problem with stealing US military tech and copying it, is that US tech is designed with American military doctrine in mind, not Chinese doctrine.

>>3010
>>3011
the importance of stealth isn't to not be seen, but to reduce the distance at which an object could be seen, and to reduce the precision of the interment detecting it, pure invisibility was never the goal, and is impossible, the goal of a stealth aircraft is to be able to not be seen from a distance where it can fire standoff weapons such as air launched cruse missiles, long range air to air missiles, or glide bombs

>>2868
Wargame Red Dragon is a great game I love it so much. That pic is of the subpar air superiority fighter tho, why not use the better pic which emanates Yugo AA aura

>>3034
The problem is (as in all stealth aircraft) the moment you open your hatches to let out the missiles and bombs, your signature goes up and the missile launches, stealth missiles or not, are going to be detected and a general location found. Moreover the use of Long and Short wave RADAR allows for detection at distance (not to mention that to fire the missiles at a target they need to lock on and unless they use active warheads (not reliable against countermeasures suchc as Digital RF Memory (DRFM)), thus they will need to use RADAR to locate a target; again revealing their position, as RADAR-lock warning systems function at detection at distances exceeding the range of most missiles a possible enemy can fire. All in all stealth is useful against less technological opponents as a surprise strike, like a special operations taskforce, as opposed to the method being used in the F-35 that allows an enemy to quickly figure out countermeasures to their "stealth" through sheer exposure and industrial espionage of mainline production.

>>3035
Sorry Yugo-comrade, didn't have that one in my folders

>>3033
>US tech is designed with American military doctrine in mind, not Chinese doctrine.
True, and on top of that a lot of US tech is bluster (Bradley IFV, Patriot Missile and LAV trucks)

>>3036
>The problem is (as in all stealth aircraft) the moment you open your hatches to let out the missiles and bombs, your signature goes up and the missile launches, stealth missiles or not, are going to be detected and a general location found.
This is why communication between aircraft is so important in modern air warfare, allowing one aircraft to get a target lock, and have another fire a missile, and a third engage in jamming. It looks like the era of multirole aircraft is needing, and future air battles will be fought will large "airfleets" that have different types of highly specialized aircraft.
>True, and on top of that a lot of US tech is bluster (Bradley IFV, Patriot Missile and LAV trucks)
Even the US tech that works (tankers, B-2/B-21, Carriers) only makes seance from the geographical perspective of an island, which is what America is, America is an Island, and a naval power, while Russia and China are Eurasian land powers.

>US Naavy is retiring Littoral after 11 years of service
<this is less than 1/2 their projected service life
<they're still pushing the Zumwalt-class
<They're having wholly autonomous missile carrying ships to replace destroyer patrols
https://archive.ph/3w9tu
https://archive.ph/p2uQL
Fucking kek the USN is fucking batshit, innit?

>>3037
>the era of multirole aircraft is needing
I doubt that, though I agree qith the idea of communication being important. The Sukhoi Su-27 series is successful because it's a heavy multirole strike fighter that has lent itself to adaptability; need strike focus? Su-34, need stealth? Su-57, need a long-rnge fighter that can also dogfight and use all ranges of missiles? Su-27-30-35-57.
The MiG-29 and MiG-31 act as the more specialized classes in aerial combat - the MiG-31 counters AWACs and its direct link allows it to act like a mini-AWACs itself. The MiG-29 excels at dogfighting and thus is perfect as a smaller defensive fighter to support the Sukhoi series. And then the Su-24 and Su-25 act as excellent strike and tactical bombers. The only thing I'm sad is that the MiG-27 no longer gets used, though the Su-34 has at least been a decent replacement.

>the US tech that works… only makes seance from the geographical perspective of an island
Aye, as said in the quora link at >>2874 it's all about forward deployment

>>3036
>The problem is (as in all stealth aircraft) the moment you open your hatches to let out the missiles and bombs, your signature goes up and the missile launches, stealth missiles or not, are going to be detected and a general location found.
This is why communication between aircraft is so important in modern air warfare, allowing one aircraft to get a target lock, and have another fire a missile, and a third engage in jamming. It looks like the era of multirole aircraft is needing, and future air battles will be fought will large "airfleets" that have different types of highly specialized aircraft.
>True, and on top of that a lot of US tech is bluster (Bradley IFV, Patriot Missile and LAV trucks)
Even the US tech that works (tankers, B-2/B-21, Carriers) only makes seance from the geographical perspective of an island, which is what America is, America is an Island, and a naval power, while Russia and China are Eurasian land powers. >>3039
>I doubt that, though I agree qith the idea of communication being important. The Sukhoi Su-27 series is successful because it's a heavy multirole strike fighter that has lent itself to adaptability; need strike focus? Su-34, need stealth? Su-57, need a long-rnge fighter that can also dogfight and use all ranges of missiles? Su-27-30-35-57.
What would work is have the Su-57 be a "scout aircraft," it can get in close to an enemy formation and send their location to other planes and maybe even SAMs while remaining undetected and the Su-27 carry many long range air to air missiles to hit targets that the Su-57 picks up. A larger high altitude stealth aircraft such as a Tu-PAK-DA would act as a command center for veracious wings, as well a carrying very long range cruse missiles to strike far out targets. Depending on a geography a SAM battery could be attached to such an air wing, where the SAM would strike planes that are found by the aircraft. A high altitude aircraft could detect low flying planes much better then a SAM. An important element of such a battle strategy is dispersal, to ensure the detection of part of an air wing wouldn't enraged the entire wing, maximizing geographic dispersal is extremely important in a game of cat and mouse where remaining undetected is important. Whoever can strike from farther away has the advantage. Right now China and Russia have longer range air missiles then the Americans, but the Americans have better long range sensors. One thing that is underrated about stealth is the ability to fly high up in the atmosphere and do so safely. High altitude allows for the observation of a huge amount of area compared to ground based sensors.

>>3040
Ignore the first part of my post, it was a typing error, I thoguht that the first part was their when I posted it, if the mods could edit it, that would be great

>>3042
Any missile that can carry over 150kg warhead is nuclear capable. Good for the DPRK though.

Can anyone clarify the system used in this event? I've heard that it is either "silkworm" anti-ship missile or a torpedo system.
https://archive.is/qZEZh

>>3044
idk, I do know that this is a huge event, will force the Sauds to either reduce or escalate their involvement

>>3045
The article is from 2018 tho

>>3046
I wish the Houthis would just start sinking Saudi Oil tankers and American merchent ships

>>3047
Inshallah

Can someone explain to me what the second battle of fallujah was?

>Realizing the low efficiency of the first generation SSGN, mainly due to the surface launch of the anti-ship missile syste
the naval leadership began to rush VN Chelomey's OKB-52 with the fastest development of anti-ship missiles with
underwater launch. Although these works were carried out from the end of the 50s, they were far from completion. The ma
problem was in the choice of the engine for the anti-ship missile. Of all the possible, only a liquid or solid-propellant jet engi
was real. Only they could work underwater. To force the turbojet engine immediately after leaving the water, the anti-ship miss
system was not yet able to start and reach the nominal mode.In the final version, a solid propellant engine was chosen for t
anti-ship missile system. Work on the creation of a new anti-ship missile "Amethyst" began in the early 60s and ended with
adoption into service only in 1968. The firing range and the weight of the warhead have sharply decreased compared to the PHowever, thanks to the underwater launch, stealth and, most importantly, the surprise of using anti-ship missiles w
submarines has increased many times over. The next generation SSGNs were built to accommodate them.
On August 28, 1958, a decree of the Central Committee of the CPSU and the Council of Ministers of the USSR "On t
creation of a new high-speed submarine, power plants of new types and the development of research, development and desi
work for submarines "was issued. In accordance with this decree, TsKB-16 (now SPMBM "Malachite") work began on the desi
of a high-speed second-generation SSGN with a titanium case, a second-generation nuclear power plant and cruise missil
launched from under the water project 661 , code "Anchar" (NATO classification "Papa"). The new SSGN was intended
deliver strikes by the Amethyst anti-ship missile system and torpedoes against enemy BNK (aircraft carrier strike formation
groupings.
>Chief designer NN Isanin, chief observer of the Navy Captain 2nd Rank YG Ilyinsky, then Captain 2nd Rank VN Marko
In the works on the project 661 Central Research Institute No. 45 took an active part (now - Central Research Institute named After Krylov) enterprises were involved in the work under the program. The ship was intended to deliver attacks with cruise missiles a
torpedoes against large enemy surface ships.The SSGN was also planned to be used for testing new structural materials
particular, titanium alloy for the submarine hull) and testing new types of weapons and technical equipment. At the beginning
1960, a pre-draft design and the main tactical and technical elements of a SSGN were presented and approved by a decree
the USSR Council of Ministers, in May of the same year - a draft design. At the same time, the prohibition to use previous
mastered technology, equipment, automation systems, devices and materials on the projected submarine w
confirmed.Although this stimulated the search for new technical solutions, at the same time, the design and construction of t
SSGN was lengthened, which to some extent predetermined its fate and was another manifestation of the voluntarism of the t
leadership. Three alternative basic materials of construction were considered for making a durable case - steel, aluminum
titanium. Ultimately, it was decided to go for titanium. In 1961, after the approval of the technical design, the production
working drawings began, and already in the next - 1962 - the production of the first hull structures from titanium, which was fi
used in the world submarine shipbuilding, began at the NSR
>Structurally, Project 661 SSGN is a two-hull. The light hull had a circular cross-section with a "bifurcated stern" type
end with propellers spaced 5 meters apart (later, a similar propeller arrangement would be borrowed on Project 949 and 949
boats). Hydrodynamic optimization of the shape of the stern end was achieved by lengthening it with small angles of departu
of the waterline in the center plane and using elongated propeller shafts with fairings that allow the installation of propellers
the optimal diameter for a given speed of rotation. In the navy, this scheme was called "pants". The nose of the robust h
consisted of two 5500-mm diameter cylinders, located one above the other, forming a "figure eight" in cross-section. The rest
the sturdy hull was cylindrical with a maximum diameter of 9000 mm. The bow of the 'eight "was divided into two compartmen
by a solid platform, with the upper cylinder being the first compartment, and the lower one the second.eights - the th
compartment - is separated from the first two by a transverse bulkhead and abutted to the fourth, which is already cylindrical
shape. The rest of the cylindrical body was divided by strong transverse bulkheads into 6 compartments. In the 1st compartme
were placed TA, spare torpedoes, a quick-loading device and an anti-ship missile control post. In the second - the first group
AB, hydroacoustics equipment and a hold post. The 3rd compartment is the living quarters of the personnel and the seco
group of AB, the 4th is the central post, the control post of the power plant, cabin for various purposes and living quarters, t
5th is the reactor compartment. 6th - turbine.In the 7th compartment there were turbogenerators and main switchboards, the 8
compartment - auxiliary mechanisms and equipment, reversible converters with boards, refrigeration machines a
compressors. The 9th compartment housed steering drives and a hold post. 10 containers with anti-ship missiles - side by si
with a constant elevation angle in between the side space in the area of the first three compartments, using the difference
diameters of the "figure eight" and the rest of the cylindrical strong hull. Nasal horizontal rudders were located in the bow of t
hull, below the waterline, and retracted into a light hull.
>After considering two types of reactors - a simpler and more developed water-moderated and promising liquid metal (t
primary coolant is an alloy of lead and bismuth) - the first one was chosen as more realistic in terms of creation time, although
has the worst specific parameters. The main power plant consisted of two autonomous groups - the right and left sides, ea
with its own reactor and the main turbo-gear unit. Each group united a V-5R nuclear steam generating unit, a GTZA-618 turb
gear unit and an OK-3 autonomous three-phase AC turbine generator with a capacity of 2 x 3000 kW. The nominal therm
power of the two nuclear reactors of the water-water type was 2x177.4 MW, and the steam production of the PPU at the norm
reactor power was 2x250 tons of steam per hour.Reactors designed for a boat project 661 , had a number of original features.
particular, the pumping of the primary coolant was carried out according to the pipe-in-pipe scheme, which ensured t
compactness of the NPP at a high thermal stress. In this case, the reactors operated not only on thermal neutrons, but also w
the participation of the fission reaction of the nuclear "fuel" of fast neutrons. The main consumers of electricity were made
alternating current with a voltage of 380V (50Hz). A significant innovation was the rejection of the use of diesel generators
powerful storage battery was used as an emergency source.
The armament of the submarine included 10 Amethyst anti-ship missiles in 10 containers located outside the robust hu
five on each side and four 533-mm torpedo tubes. Target designation for anti-ship missiles and torpedo firing was provided
the newest SJSC "Rubin". The maximum firing range of anti-ship missiles was 70 km. The rocket was launched from
submerged position from a depth of 30 m from a container previously flooded with intake water. Immediately after leaving t
container, the starting engine was triggered, and the wing was opened, and in the surface position, the sustainer solid-propella
engine was turned on.The missile complex also included prelaunch control equipment, devices for the on-board missile f
control system associated with the hydroacoustic complex, the torpedo firing control complex, the navigation complex, as well
heading stabilizer and depth gauge. The launcher provided storage preparation, transportation, remote prelaunch and launch
cruise missiles without access to the container. The cruise missiles were taken aboard the ship in a condition that was fina
equipped for launch. Their reliable storage and launch were ensured during a three-month stay at sea.All missile ammuniti
could be fired in two salvos, the interval between which was three minutes (according to experts, this was a major tactical flaw
the project, which made it difficult to effectively use SSGNs for the main targets - aircraft carriers). Torpedo tubes were located
the bow of the submarine. Ammunition consisted of 12 torpedoes. TA provided shooting from a depth of up to 200 m. Torpe
firing was controlled by the Ladoga-P-661 automated system. REV included the all-latitude navigation complex "Sigma-66
which provided underwater and ice navigation.Automatic control of the ship was carried out by means of the "Shpat" headi
and depth control system, the "Tourmaline" system for preventing emergency trims and failures, as well as the "Signal-66
control system for general ship systems, devices and outboard holes. SJSC MGK-300 "Rubin" ensured the detection of noi
targets with the simultaneous automatic tracking of two of them with the issuance of data to the control systems of missile a
torpedo weapons. Provided circular detection of enemy GAS signals operating in an active mode, as well as their identificati
with the determination of bearing and distance.
>To detect anchor mines, the ship had a GAS "Radian-1".To monitor the air a
surface conditions, the submarine was equipped with a high-aperture anti-aircraft periscope PZNS-9 with an optical coordina
calculator. The lifting device made it possible to raise the periscope from a depth of up to 30 m at a speed of up to 10 knots with electronic reconnaissance means, which made it possible to search, detect and take direction finding of the enemy
working radio stations. To monitor the air and surface conditions, the submarine was equipped with a high-aperture anti-aircr
periscope PZNS-9 with an optical coordinate calculator. The lifting device made it possible to raise the periscope from a depth
up to 30 m at a speed of up to 10 knots and waves of up to 5 points. There were radars RLK-101 and MTP-10, as well as
system for determining nationality "Nichrome".For two-way ultra-high-speed classified radio communications with coas
command posts, other ships and aircraft interacting with a submarine, there was a modern (by the standards of the 1960s) rad
communication equipment. The ship was equipped with electronic reconnaissance means, which made it possible to searc
detect and take direction finding of the enemy's working radio stations. To monitor the air and surface conditions, the submari
was equipped with a high-aperture anti-aircraft periscope PZNS-9 with an optical coordinate calculator. The lifting device made
possible to raise the periscope from a depth of up to 30 m at a speed of up to 10 knots and waves of up to 5 points.There we
radars RLK-101 and MTP-10, as well as a system for determining nationality "Nichrome". For two-way ultra-high-spe
classified radio communications with coastal command posts, other ships and aircraft interacting with a submarine, there was
modern (by the standards of the 1960s) radio communication equipment. The ship was equipped with electronic reconnaissan
means, which made it possible to search, detect and take direction finding of the enemy's working radio stations.
>For testing and testing in boat conditions, weapons and equipment for SSGNs of project 661 were reequipped accordi
to projects developed by TsKB-16, several submarines, incl. Submarine of project 613A (then it was retrofitted according
project 613AD .) For testing the ASM "Amethyst", submarine of project 611RU for testing SJSC Rubin, submarine of proje
611RA for testing GAS mine detecting "Radian". Prototypes of automated motion control systems for SSGNs "Shpat" a
"Tourmalin", as well as NK "Sigma" were tested on the nuclear submarine of project 627A …In the course of design a
hydrodynamic studies and model tests, the contours of the outer hull of a high-speed twin-shaft submarine were optimiz
(chewing shape of the bow end, bifurcated aft end, circular contours in cross-sections in the middle part of the ship). To give t
submarine hull circular contours when large missile containers were placed side-by-side, the latter had to be moved to t
submarine's submarine submarine, and therefore, in the bow of the ship, the spacecraft was designed with cross-sections in t
form of a vertical "eight". This led to the complication of the design of the spacecraft during the transition from the "eight" to t
cylindrical spacecraft in the middle of the submarine, but made it possible to compactly arrange the inclined missile containe
on the ship.
For the armament of the Project 661 SSGN , a low-flying anti-ship missile with an underwater launch was created for t
first time in the world. Since the turbojet engine anti-ship missiles of the "P-6" type could not be launched and operate und
water near a missile with an underwater launch, it was necessary to ensure the launch and launch of a sustainer turbojet engi
in flight after the anti-ship missile launcher came to the surface when firing from a submerged submarine. However, in the 6
this problem was not solved and the developer of the Amethyst anti-ship missile system OKB-52 adopted solid propellant rock
motors as the main and starting engines of the new anti-ship missile system.This made it possible for the "Amethyst" rocket
launch from a container filled with water with a "blind" rear bottom (without a back cover) like an underwater launch.
BR from the missile silo. But; due to the lower efficiency of solid propellants in comparison with the turbojet engine, t
flight range of the "Amethyst" cruise missile turned out to be significantly shorter than that of the "P-6" type cruise missile. T
flight speed of the new rocket was also subsonic. The missiles were in containers with folded wing consoles. The containe
were permanently installed at an anti-ship missile launch angle - 32.5 ° to the main plane of the submarine. The miss
developer did not solve the problem of vertical launch of anti-ship missiles.It was believed that with a vertical launch, the rock
after exiting the water, would rise to a considerable height (make a "slide") above the sea surface before being transferred to
horizontal flight at low altitude. The inclined (at a slight angle to the horizon) arrangement of containers excluded their placeme
in the PC and complicated the design of the outer case.
The launch of the Amethyst anti-ship missile was carried out from the container after filling the annular gap with water a
depth of 30 m. The underwater starting engine was launched in the container, with the help of which the rocket reached t
surface and its wing consoles were opened. Then the starting engine of the air trajectory was triggered, accelerating the rock
after which the main engine was turned on and it rushed to the target. The target designation of the Amethyst anti-ship miss
system, due to the short firing range, was provided by the submarine SAC, and the autonomous on-board control system
combination with the active RLGSN - guiding the missile to the target. Therefore, immediately after the launch of the missile
the SSGN could leave this area.
In 1962, the production of the first frames and shells of the strong hull of the boat began at the Northern Machine-Buildi
Enterprise. The construction of the submarine lasted almost 10 years. This is due to delays in the supply of titanium, vario
component parts, and the long cycle of creating a missile system, which was put into service only in 1968. As it turned out, t
titanium hull requires other methods of strength calculations than the steel one - failure to take this into account led to t
disruption of hydraulic tests of some of the ship's blocks. The delay in construction was also affected by the low rates of supp
of titanium, which was in short supply at that time, which was also in dire need of the aircraft and rocket industries.The bo
moreover, was very expensive, for which it received the nickname "Goldfish" in the navy.
Nevertheless, on state tests in 1969, the submarine at 80% power of the power plant showed an underwater speed of
knots instead of 38 provided for by the specification requirements, and after the submarine was transferred to the fleet duri
tests on a measured mile in 1971, the submarine reached the full power of the reactors with a speed of 44.7 knots, which to th
day has not been surpassed by any submarine in the world! At such speeds, phenomena were discovered that had not yet be
noted on the submarine - at a speed of more than 35 knots, external hydrodynamic noise appeared, created by a turbulent flo
when flowing around the submarine's hull, and its level reached 100 decibels in the central post of the boat.For its high-spe
qualities, the boat was very much liked by the Commander-in-Chief of the USSR Navy, Admiral SG Gorshkov.

>>3050
Nice repost but you really need to fix the formatting, the Greentext filed and entire sentences are cut off.

>>3050
The project 661 SSGN had no analogs either in the Soviet or in foreign fleets in terms of its running and maneuverabi
and served as the undoubted predecessor of the second and third generation submarines with cruise missiles on board a
titanium hulls. However, the delay in its commissioning, a number of tactical shortcomings of the missile system, signifigant priority was given to the upgrading of K-162, including the installation of the P-120 missile system with subsequent replacement by the Granit complex. The bo
became part of the Northern Fleet and from January 1970 to December 1971 was in trial operation, after which it w
transferred to combat strength, but made only a few military campaigns due to the low reliability of mechanisms and equipmen
In 1970, the issue of laying a series of SSGNs of an improved project - 661M - was again discussed . Three versions
the submarine were worked out, differing in displacement (from 5197 to 6208 tons), underwater speed (39-42 knots), pow
plant (43000-55000 hp) and other parameters. However, by this time, the serial construction of Project 670 submarines, whi
did not have such high speed characteristics, but much cheaper and quieter submarines with comparable striking power, h
already been launched .
>Notable aspects of the project
<Absolutely no existing knowledge was to be used in its construction; everything had to be developed from scratch and revolutionary to the industry to which it belonged in order to develop knowledge for the next generation of submarines and beyond
<the speed and safe diving depth of Projekt 661 was almost twice as fast as any existing NATO submarine to this day and over triple the diving depth at 600m
<Projekt 661 was able to outrun and outdive all existing NATO deep-water running torpedos
<Projekt 661 directly led to the development to the Projekt 705- a rough copy of Projekt 661 reconfigured for SSN purposes, 705 suffered from extreme noise at speed(150 db+), the 705A was supposed to fix this but was never built due to the collapse of the USSR. The other direct development was the SSGN Projekt 949 which was a more streamlined and quieter version of 661 at the cost of speed, durability, and diving depth. 949 would also develop in the largest submarine ever built in the form of the K-329, a modified 949A by the Russian Federation by adding several metres to the length of the hull in order to house a fully autonomous nuclear torpedo that can attack any target in the world on its own(The torpedo is larger than most subs) which itself is developed from 661's planned feature to split its hull to become 2 vessels to attack several strategic targets.

Also which one of you is the one copy+pasting my old posts

>>3055
The absolute state of bong military. Why don’t you recruit quadriplegics and dying cancer patients while you’re at it.

>>3057
but muh anti-abalism activism

>>3056
I'm guessing the mentality is "Hey, they're gonna die regardless, might as well utilize them as fodder *sips tea* "

>>3059
this would make seance if Britain was still a real power

>>3060
They're still a strong vassal of the USA

>>3061
>vassal
yes
>strong
no

>>3062
They have nuclear capability a large fleet and airforce and more, they are militarily superior to most other countries and are a significant part of projected NATO power in Europe, I can meme and laugh about the state of their armed forces but at the same time I don't ignore that they are a real military threat to a majority of countries that aren't Russia, China, Iran and Belarus or countries of similar power.

>>3063
>They have nuclear capability
yeah, but very few warheads, not enough to be used in strategic warfare
>large fleet
>no cruisers
>only six destroyers
>12 frigats
>10 subs
>2 carriers (no catiputls)
yeah its to small to be effective
>and airforce
>no bombers
>no air suppority fighters
>only 178 multirole
>of which only 21 are stealth and capible of using carriers
Again they are a joke, not only when compared to real modern great powers (US, China, Russia, India) but also compared to what Britian used to be. Modern Britain is not a great power, they aren't even a power at all, but a pawn in the Sino-American global chessboard.

>>3064
All this is true, I'm just pointing out that Britain is still a military force that can be a thorn in the side of any advanced country and certainly retain the capability of crushing smaller countries. In the case of a Ukraine based conflict against Russia they'd be the USA's cannonfodder and at least provide a suitable stalling force and they're getting ready for that role in any upcoming big conflict.

>>3065
They just don't have the forces required to wage a sustained campaign, unlike America and Russia. Also most of Britain's military equipment has parts made outside of Britain, unlike Russia, and unlike America they don't have the ability to make those components domestically. They could be impactful for a mount, but not for three mouths.

>>3063
>>3065
The absolute state of their navy currently is that they sent a small patrol boat to try and do gunboat diplomacy with some French fishermen who promptly laughed and shut off the power until the English came crawling back to the negotiating table.

That and they have a smaller strategic force than France. I want to emphasize that point greatly. And one day I want to get into just how absolutely hilarious the French forces are(hint: it involves just coasting on post-war captured German stuff and relying on pre-WW2 doctrine and technology) and I can say that the English are even worse off. Mostly because of an absolute shit economy and reliance on the USA whereas France has the economy to support its military and is actively against relying on the USA but is held back by general incompetence. Insert a 1939 or "history is round" joke here for the absolute parody of history repeating itself yet again.

>>3067
Its sad when Israel or Saudi Arabia arguably have a stronger military then them.
>and I can say that the English are even worse off. Mostly because of an absolute shit economy and reliance on the USA whereas France has the economy to support its military and is actively against relying on the USA but is held back by general incompetence. Insert a 1939 or "history is round" joke here for the absolute parody of history repeating itself yet again.
European militaries only exist right now because of inertia and NATO obligations. On a practical level none of it makes any real sence. Its just historical vestiges.

>>3068
>Its sad when Israel or Saudi Arabia arguably have a stronger military then them.
Meh, Israel is essentially a US military base that has achieved statehood so that one's kinda 'justified' and Saudi Arabia's military is a hodge podge of whatever they can buy off NATO states like Canada so despite being able to bankroll a massive military they're being beaten by fucking Yemen insurgents and have managed to lose M1A2s and Apaches to hand thrown IEDs(how the fuck you get within throwing range in an Apache I have no clue)

>>3069
when you compare non-WMD forces Saudi Arabia is stronger then France of Britain, also they aren't losing in Yemen, so much as its a stalemate in mountains

>>3070
They outnumber Yemen something close to 3-1, have proper military hardware, and the entire point is to get rid of Yemen as a show of force against Iran or the Iran-related minorities in Yemen anyways. So the fact not only are they in a stalemate, but lost a third of their armoured force, 20 Abrams, in a single ambush(even losing a single MBT is rare for most militaries and they lost 20 to some RPG-7s), and have had their own oil fields in their own territory attacked shows exactly how utterly stupid Saudi Arabia is; anyone with half a brain could have won the war in Yemen for the Saudis but they're in a stalemate where THEY'RE on the backfoot more than the rebels are. Yugoslav and Soviet Partisans are weeping tears of joy in their graves.

If Saudi Arabia went to war with the UK or France leaving nukes aside, it wouldn't be a matter of who would win with the better military, it's a question of who will throw their entire military away in a stupid decision first. And at this point it's neck and neck cause they're all horrible at managing their own militaries. DID I MENTION FRANCE STILL USES PRE-WW2 DOCTRINE? At this point it's tweedledee, tweedledumb, and tweedledumber and I don't know which one is which.

>>3071
>They outnumber Yemen something close to 3-1, have proper military hardware, and the entire point is to get rid of Yemen as a show of force against Iran or the Iran-related minorities in Yemen anyways. So the fact not only are they in a stalemate, but lost a third of their armoured force, 20 Abrams, in a single ambush(even losing a single MBT is rare for most militaries and they lost 20 to some RPG-7s), and have had their own oil fields in their own territory attacked shows exactly how utterly stupid Saudi Arabia is; anyone with half a brain could have won the war in Yemen for the Saudis but they're in a stalemate where THEY'RE on the backfoot more than the rebels are. Yugoslav and Soviet Partisans are weeping tears of joy in their graves.
Thats just how warfare in mountains works, its a war of attrition.

On the topic of armed forces that are not what they used to be:
https://archive.md/K4aQ4

the British should not be allowed to operate planes

>>3074
>pic
fucking kek

war has changed

>>2853
Post this on AKM because it is military related

Recently been reading the AVP wiki cuz I've been rewatching the movies and looking at the game let's plays and the only listed Colonial Marine melee is a combat knife based on the American M9 bayonet, the appearance got me curious because it looked like an AKM bayonet. I go to wikipedia; lo and behold, "The M9 bayonet was designed and developed by Charles A. "Mickey" Finn at his R&D company, Qual-A-Tec.[1][2][3] It is a refined copy of the Russian AKM 6H3 bayonet.[4] He later produced it under the Phrobis III name, filling a military contract for 325,000 units in 1986."
But nah only de "dum gommies" copied "thuperior American technology"
And hell they copied an already outdated Soviet bayonet that had already been replaced in service in 1974, 10 years late. But it's not unusual, ironically until the late 80s the USSR had been ahead in all the innovative technologies that are now thought of as the norm of modern military tech.
https://archive.ph/6dL6X

Dunno if this will archive right but let's see: https://archive.ph/wip/L6X2w

Carl hamilton on quora is a very good analyst and often disproves anti-soviet tech myths and even reveals how far ahead they were in many areas
https://www.quora.com/How-did-Soviet-and-US-military-technology-compare/answer/Carl-Hamilton-12

https://www.quora.com/Can-a-T-80U-kill-an-early-90s-M1-Abrams-with-its-cannon-from-the-same-distance-as-the-Abrams-can-in-return-for-the-T-80/answer/Carl-Hamilton-12

New Mustard just dropped

I just uploaded a full rip of the Epic Soviet Documentaries channel to the Internet Archive: https://archive.org/details/epic-soviet-documentaries
328 videos, everything subtitled to English

>>2877
Russia is a poor and corrupt country, they do stuff the cheap and dumb way because they can't do otherwise

>>4381
As opposed to others who do it in an expensive and dumb way? LMAO.