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Have any of you guys ever seen this? What did you think with its messages related to democracy / authoritarianism and such?


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this board would be better if kircheis were here


What would have happened if Kirchies were alive? Only 2 people have defeated Yang, Kirchies and Hildegard von Mariendorf.


This series was a big disappointment in the end. Nothing but a big wank off of anacyclosis with weak character development, the whole thing felt like wasted potential.


It was a really long time ago I watched it, but I remember thinking it did a good job with its depiction of a bourgeois state's corruption. It certainly isn't Marxist or even leftist though.

I'm only really watching three shows this season so I may give this a rewatch.


I was pretty disappointed with this series when I finally finished it. It's mostly just a big wank off of Polybius's anacyclosis with weak character development. The whole thing felt like wasted potential.


I think we already have a LOTGH thread


It is very good show, but from political-economic perspective it is very liberal, it is an ultimate reflection of the liberal view of politics.

Watching this before i was marxists was pretty good. Watching it as marxists is somewhat tiresome.


Yang was the author's self-insert.


Would it kill you to put LOTGH or Legend of the Galactic Heroes in the OP so that the thread doesn't vanish if it goes below Page 1?


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I think its view of history is warped, or at least it appears so. The relationship of the characters with their environment and the impact they have thereon seems to suggest that the show supports "great man theory".
Some bloggers have written about that:


I find the notion that it supports GMT more believable; it is shoved in the viewer's face in moments like when Schoenkopf says that he wants to save Yang because "history would be boring without him", which implies that history wouldn't be moving if Yang was dead.
Although it isn't necessarily related, the fact that what appears to be a semi-feudal autocracy had coexisted with a bourgeois democracy for ~150 years is telling - it suggests that governments, economic structures, and culture are alien to the material conditions that exist and the level of technology & science. This is obviously anti-marxist.


That's ironic considering that LOGH was inspired in part by Romance of the Three Kingdoms and it is stated at one point in Three Kingdoms that heroes only arise during times of chaos. One of the characters even laments that in a peaceful age he would be nothing more than a mid level bureaucrat.


The Narration supports great man theory, one of the spiels the narrator tells you like 4 times says "history is the collection of the actions of great men", that's why the show is named that, the title itself is a play on this.

However the claim that it supports it and it is reactionary are two different ones, the guy in the other article is right. Mainly, in that the show does seem to imply that history as told by the narrator is warped, and that Reinhard is not necessarily a conservative. mostly, it seems the actual ideology of the show is somewhere between liberal and dengeist (a progressive figure that abolishes the aristocracy makes economic reform, and creates a progressive authoritarian regime in a Japanese show just reeks of dengeist to me).

What I think would be more interesting to think about is this, if the show implies the narrator is telling you his version, then from that version, what would be the actual story of the world? Now that's a real story worthy of being written


On that topic, some of the most prominent protagonist characters in RoTK lose the war in the end, and there's even one that gets killed off by his artisans after he works them too hard.


More thicc LOLIS could improve it for the otaku masses.


Fuck off


Having given it some thought I have to side with the "it's anti GMT"-camp. I think we are underestimating the extent to which this show is self-conscious.

Note for example how the supposedly "brilliant" stratagems that the various characters use to win this or that battle are typically rather banal. You can put this away as lazy writing - the character is brilliant for the purpose of the story, but it is told in stead of shown.

However I started to notice how often, almost every time, there is always some character in the other camp who anticipates what is to come, points it out to the superiors, and is shot down. So clearly we are not dealing with uniquely genius insights. Moreover the outcome of the battles is in almost all cases over-determined by the preceding circumstances. The most obvious case being the invasion of the Empire by the FPA really on - with no clear plan beyond "we'll be greeted as liberators" their defeat was assured before the invasion started, no genius opponents needed. Another case is the noble coalition, which falters more to its own internal tensions and weaknesses (factionalism and ill discipline mostly) than to a particularly genius approach by Reinhardt and company.

The characters who are portrayed as the brilliant great men, then, are so portrayed not because they are shown to be brilliant great men, but because that status is useful for other actors behind them - which is made explicit several times. Yang is initially very useful as a hero to Trunicht, while Reinhardt is the linchpin of the coalition of officers around him, threatening to fracture as soon as he suffers a breakdown for a couple of days. In his case it is Oberstein, arguably the real brains of the operation, who maintains him as figurehead.

History in the show is seen to be made through larger forces that determine the outcome of things, the characters can only be the vessel for larger forces, influencing what is already slated to happen at the margins. Which fits well with Yang - the historian - 's signature move, making the best of a bad situation.


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Maybe the Narrator indulges in GMT but I can't really say the same for the author. He did (albeit very clumsy and barely) mention that Imperials vastly outnumbered the Alliance in men and technology, and also mentioned the Alliance's devastated economy in the constant. Yang was right to suggest a ceasefire or peace treaty as the only way for the Alliance to win the war against the Imperial in the long term.

It is still pretty bullshit how Reinhard can turn around social welfare and the economy of the Empire in just a few years though.

>how the supposedly "brilliant" stratagems that the various characters use to win this or that battle are typically rather banal. You can put this away as lazy writing - the character is brilliant for the purpose of the story, but it is told in stead of shown
Tbf most of Yang's tactics and strategies are directly copied from great maneuvers in history. IIRC His last real fight against the Empire before his assassination is literally Hannibal's Battle of Cannae in Space.


I mean the author seems to be imitating the style of evens of real history, which of course means that regarless of what the show contains both interpretations are going to apply, since even if unconciously, the guy is good enough of a writer to include material details that point in both directions, which i think is the fun of the show somewhat. But i think that even so, his belive in GMT bleeds through, in stuff like the backstory of the universe and the narrator. Which why i think this anime could do without that, without the objective narrator telling you what you are supposed to think about the events. Although the backstory is still interesting, i like how they presented it as a tv show in universe, like clearly that was not a real portrayal of what happened, and it is left for us to interpret what actually happened




>>4850 wasted trips


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How can I watch this?


There are no official English releases, so you have to find a pirate site


Any hints where?



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Thoughts on Oberstein?


he has aspergers


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The dialectic given flesh, did nothing wrong.


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Doesn't Reinhard seize all of the traitorous nobles wealth which basically gives him unlimited money cheat so he can add giant fucking engines to his liquid death star and the Reich still does not have any problems when it goes kaboom.viet_congViet Cong


Yes he does but to be fair, the death star was already built, only the engines were a new addition. However the Reich built 2 death stars before Reinhard took power so you have to wonder were the money and resources needed to build those came from. Later on in the series Reinhard's new Reich is planning to build 3 additional death stars to defend the imperial capital. We also see nonsense (at least in the anime) like peasant farmers using animal power or at best 20th century looking tractors. Yet these peasants are part of an economy that can produce 10s of thousands of space battleships. The author glosses over the whole economic aspect of things.


Author clearly self-inserted as Yang.


I think you're reading too much into the "history would be boring without you", yang wasn't the type to support GMT at all, being a young historian and avoid democracy enjoyer.

For sure, the imperial history segments are filled with such propaganda tho


Those fortresses might take generations to construct too.viet_congViet Cong


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Besides a complex narrative and interesting political nuance, it's also an excellent source of memes.


I tried to watch it but it made me sleepy so I watched Fist of the Northstar again instead.


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/mlp/ol classic


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I get the sense that the author of the novel was attempting to rationalize WWII and the Japanese loss as well as their new alliance with the Americans/British who bested them. The book was written in the 1970s-1980s. The Soviet Union is still around on Japan's doorstep, the space race has 'finished' and Japan is a rising economic power with a decision to make about it's future that is strikingly similar to the 1930s again. The bubble economy of the 1990s hasn't happened yet as far as the author is concerned.

In my view and I believe the author's, an honest appraisal of Imperial Japan's strength must include an overthrow of the 'legitimate' emperor by a random wild eyed military man. Tojo=Reinhardt as much as he is an Caesarian/Napoleonic stand in. Is that stability? Is it desirable that we all pound our chests about ancient pride when any whipper snapper worth his salt can come along and upend society?

An honest appraisal of Democracy must also account for corruption and how to remove it from the 'throne'. It is harder to do but worth striving after if the people can be engaged and guided by historical understanding rather than a faux patriotism/militarism which is in no one's long term interest. Yang Wen-li and the Trunicht/Jessica Edwards arc. LOGTH manages to 'both sides' the problem without losing touch with the real differences between the systems.

The only things worth fighting for are the people you care about because they will have your back seems to be the ongoing lesson of most Japanese thought from this series onward, so it is good to see it arrive in what amounts to it's young adulthood.

And beware of Capitalists interested only in seeing their enemies eat each other to preserve the status quo and their own profits. Phezzan

A good to great series overall, though the remake was a disappointment both in the art and the plot emphasis (great OP for what it was worth). The remake plays the notes of the story through a neoliberal vocoder is the best I can describe it.


Do you think the books are any different from the anime?


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It is a very good piece of fiction and the scope is bigger than even many books. It is clearly anti-marxist, but it is not as anti democracy as many people claim. The only reason autocracy is so positive for much of the show is because Reinhard is a progressive who brings about a bourgeois monarchy (and token economic reforms to apease the working class). However the show makes the viewer well aware that his son may not be as progressive as he is, it is just the anime ends before we can see what he does. Over all I think it is a worthwile watch.


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>this board would be better if kircheis were here


Me too, until I got seriously interested in politics a few years later, and now I'm binge-watching it.
It's fun and I never get bored with it. Quite the opposite from the first time I tried watching it.


I'll be honest, this episode made me tear up.


Is there any communism in this series or at least some references to it? From what I've seen, there's only one joking mention of anarchism and a serious one of capitalism. I find it hard to believe that communists wouldn't have taken advantage of the multiple crises to gain support. That's about the only thing that I find annoying about this story, it's like communism doesn't even exist, but it would make perfect sense for it to play a role here. The novels would have been written when the Soviet Union was still around, yes? That makes it even weirder.


LOGH is about democracy vs autocracy, there's no communism. I remember a throw-away line abou Fezzan being "socialist", but there's nothing socialist about it.


>LOGH is about democracy vs autocracy
Uh no, it's about republican oligarchy versus monarchy.


>>>>bourgeois """democracy"""


I tried to watch it thinking it was going to be an incredibly smart anime about war and politics but I got to the point where Yang is talking to this general dude about trying to destroy some space base, and he was like "we've tried like 5 times" or whatever. Cue some defectors on the background dressed in space monarchist uniforms (for some reason) and I thought the conversation was going to lead to having already tried and failed to infiltrate it using defectors or something and Yang was going to come up with a convoluted plan to make it work this time, instead Yang the genius just says "DUH HOW BOUT WE TRY TO INFILITRATE IT USING THE DEFECTORS THAT ARE LITERALLY STANDING BEHIND ME" and the general is like "HURR I CANT BELIEVE WE HAVEN'T TRIED THAT BEFORE UR A GENIUS YANG WE LITERALLY SENT SHIPS TO THE FRONT DOORS OF THE IMPENETRABLE FORTRESS ARMED WITH A SUPER LASER CANNON 5 TIMES IN A ROW BEFORE YOU GOT HERE". I shut down this piece of shit anime.


Yeah everyone but the main characters are incredibly retarded as >>3951 pointed out.
(That aspect of the series gets better as the retards die out imo)


idk, maybe references to communism don't sell that much in Japan unlike nazis


>I remember a throw-away line abou Fezzan being "socialist"
I think what you remember is when the coup in the Alliance happened and this Fezzan guy implied that it would result in "state socialism"


I think so, it's been years since I last watched LOGH.


>the remake was a disappointment
Inferior, but still pretty good. if it exposes new people to the original all the better. I'll watch season three this year to see if it improves.

And for all its faults the remake has better scripted pilot episodes by a mile, pretty important for a series imho.


>the remake was a disappointment both in the art and the plot emphasis (great OP for what it was worth). The remake plays the notes of the story through a neoliberal vocoder is the best I can describe it.
>Inferior, but still pretty good. if it exposes new people to the original all the better.
OK, I guess now I'm watching the remake too, then. I know it's not gonna be as good the original but I don't want to rewatch that one just yet and I'm starving for new content. (Not very interested in the Gaiden series, at least not yet. Might read the novels tho, but are they even in English?)
>And for all its faults the remake has better scripted pilot episodes by a mile
Why is that?


Original series constantly jumps between alliance, empire, and fezzan in ep 1 and 2, while Reinhardt is already aware he is facing Yang. While typical of lotgh to opt for this more distant, expository storytelling, it does take the tension out of the engagement as shown.

In the remake, episode one is restricted to Reinhardt only, with a cliffhanger just as (a still unknown) Yang introduces himself. Then episode two gives you Yangs pov and the conclusion. It's a solid device to hook your audience, and gives the series a fittingly theatrical introduction. This approach works against the remake in the long run, since the larger story doesn't lend itself to these conventional tropes by and large. But it's a solid way to kick things off with a bang.


I see, thanks.
OK, I'm downloading season 1 right now.

btw is there a reason why the second and third seasons are being released as films?


But hey, huh, isn't the first "episode" actually the movie My Conquest is the Sea of Stars? I think that one's a much better introduction to the series but it doesn't look like everyone realizes that's meant to be watched first. I actually watched it after.


Yeah, but as you say people don't tend to realise it. Best way to watch today would be conquest, overture, then episode three and on. Or even just starting at overture if you're looking for accessibility tbh


I'm happy that more people are talking about this anime on this board and that this thread has been active lately. Although I still wish I had gotten into it sooner. Maybe I could've reacted in real time on /a/ when the remake came out, cuz there's a lot of minor stuff that I hate about it so far.


Season three soon comrade! We'll do much complaining I'm sure. Or maybe praise, if they step up their game a bit (one easy win: expanding the ost in stead of repeating the same three tracks), we'll see.


>repeating the same three tracks
Holy shit, I thought it was just me who wasn't paying attention to the soundtrack.
This OST is such a massive downgrade from the original, but I suppose that's just stating the obvious.
Also I wish they would stop adding music when it's not necessary (such as when someone is talking but nothing else is going on), it's distracting and cheapens the battle scenes, at least in the first season which is where I'm at. Is this an attempt to make the boring dialogue more "engaging" or dramatic?
I also liked the first OP Nothing's Gonna Stop Us Now especially because I'm sick of generic j-rock/j-pop anime OP songs, but it's still unfitting IMO. The ending song is alright I guess.

Anyway, looking forward to season 3.

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