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File: 1626451097397.png (Spoiler Image,359.56 KB, 1920x1200, w null_ziarjzpmdmt61.png)

 

what do you think about RWBY as an anime
542 posts and 249 image replies omitted.

>>29338
>>29309
>>29304
Next Stream set for the same times with restreams at 9PM!
Hope to see you folks!

>>29340
A quick update on the Streams
RWBY Stream will occur on Sunday as usual but with how large Volume 4 is, we're considering splitting it into two streams. https://8chan.moe/rwby/res/8643.html#9513
This may occur for following Volumes as well.
Those interested, please vote on Yes or No.

>>29402
i wish there was a video exactly like this except she's surrounded by cocks

>>29402
>>29403
sorry i've been going through something lately. please disregard

File: 1762666530043.gif (2.52 MB, 720x404, 1679783626565345.gif)

>>29403
There probably is on R34. It would be in character

>>29402
Volume 4 Part II will be happening this Sunday, same time, same cytube link. See ya there!

>>29428
That is where I dropped the series, how does it evolve from there? Does it improve, get worse, secret third thing?

>>29430
It kinda varies, there's parts that worsen, but there's still plenty of good. The worst Volumes are 5 and 8 and even then there's fun to be had. Come join in and see for yourself

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>>29428
Volume 5 may be split in two Streams given it's length. Additionally…

STREAM DAY CHANGE
Hello Folks, due to some Real Life scheduling, I will be changing the Stream day to Saturday for the foreseeable future! This starts with the next stream. Spread the news please.

Ergo Volume 5 stream will be Saturday at 9AM with regular restreams.

>>29445
SATURDAY STREAM
Stream for VOLUME 6 will be tomorrow 9AM East Coast USA Time!

See ya lads there!

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>>29503
SATURDAY STREAM
Stream for VOLUME 7 will be tomorrow 9AM East Coast USA Time!

See ya lads there!

File: 1765568010874.png (1.21 MB, 2560x1440, Cinder Chibi cry.png)

>>29535
SATURDAY STREAM!
RWBY Stream for VOLUME 8 will be tomorrow 9AM East Coast USA Time! Same cytube link as always!

See ya lads there!

>>29559
>>542076
SATURDAY STREAM!
RWBY Stream for Volume 9 will be tomorrow 9AM East Coast USA Time! Same cytube link as always!

Ultra hyper slop
Never understood the hype

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>>29585
>slop slop! everything I don't like is slop!
Do you /pol/uyghurs read books or what?
>hype
It was hype because Monty was hype due to him having excellent fight choreography and this being his personal project (originally). Additionally RoosterTeeth wasn't always a gay-liberal big company, it used to be machinima, a group of indie youtubers making all sorts of stuff, fanprojects like Red Vs Blue, various group game plays and RWBY was their first major original animation project. Obviously the show is far from perfect, especially in later Volumes, but still fun for many people.

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>>29581
SATURDAY STREAM!
RWBY: Ice Queendom STREAM! . Stream will be tomorrow, 9AM East Coast USA Time. Same double chan cytube link as usual!

RWBY chibi is absolute puke

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>>29650
SATURDAY RESTREAM
Starting RWBY Restream on Saturday as usual

>>29707
VOLUME 2 RESTREAM!
Same Saturday time as usual

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KnightFall is da best

https://rentry.org/Knight_Fall

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>>29786
hellbirds more based


File: 1771035780895.webm (1.53 MB, 1920x1080, ArcFurnace Knight.webm)

>>29793
>An abusive child-abandoner who runs a tribe of rapist bandits hooking up with a traumatized girl turned villain whom she looks down on
<A wholesome redemptive romance of the underdog hero subverting traditional heroics and saving the villain from her spiral into darkness and being the one person who reaches out with love
Yeah nah, I pick KnightFall anyday.

>>29796
I don't care about your gay hetship with self-insert.
My ship is still based and hellbird-pilled, and i will still repeat this fact for the national geographic.


>An abusive child-abandoner who runs a tribe of bandits that asks for consent hooking up with a traumatized girl turned villain whom she looks down on

I love a good redemption arc in my repairship

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>>29798
>gay
<hetship
You need to touch grass liberal.
>self-insert
What are you actually on about?
>My ship is still based and hellbird-pilled
Your ship is the epitome of abusive lesbian stereotypes, that's the opposite of based, retard.
>a good redemption arc
None of this is a redemption arc. Lustful hate-sex and being a toxic couple is not a 'repairship'.

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>>29798
Yeah nah, Raven is literally the worst fucking person in the series, she's actually worse than Salem in some regards. The only thing she's good for is being gangbanged by her own scumbag bandits.

>>29800
>00
Dubs confirm; based and true.

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>>29798
>I don't care about your gay hetship with self-insert.
This. I've read some cute lancaster fics, but Jaune is literally the worst main character by premise alone.
>>29801
>muh bandits
Wait until you hear about the bolsheviks.

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>>29800
ur mums a liberal

>>29801
>Yeah nah, Raven is literally the worst fucking person in the series, she's actually worse than Salem in some regards.
10/10 character, i love a good redemption arc :^)

>The only thing i'm good for is gangbanged by her own scumbag bandits.

nou, after asking for consent

>>29802
>but Jaune is literally the worst main character by premise alone.
>Wait until you hear about the bolsheviks.
this

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>>29802
The Bolsheviks weren't a bunch of murderous thugs who raped, murdered and pillaged ordinary people, before abandoning them to be ravaged by the Grimm, while being led by the propagandist of nietschizian ubermensch philosophy. If anything Raven is basically an ancap.

>>29802
>Jaune is literally the worst main character by premise alone.
Again, HOW? How is he worse than the toxic liberal catgirl. What premise are you even on about?

>>29803
Your pic is literal faggotry. Please kill yourself.
>10/10 character
No
>a good redemption arc
<hellbirds
No
>nou
Uno Reverse.

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>>29803
>ur mums a liberal
>gay-ass fujo pic
<no argument
Cope and deflection: I repeat go outside and touch grass and read a book. Optionally consider taking your meds. Alternatively go back to cuckch/a/n.

>>29802
As the other anon said, the Bolsheviks were not bandits, robbing a bank to fund their activities is not the same as marching into a village and basically burning it to the ground like parasites. The Bolsheviks specifically executed people for this, because to behave like this isn't upholding the principles of a communist and revolutionaries. In fact Lenin specifically ordered the Red Army to respond to "banditry" with lethal force. (Citation: Lenin, Red Annals No. 1, 1924. Collected Works, Volume 26)
So yeah, fuck Raven and her Branwen tribe, the reactionary cunts deserve the wall, literal slavers, rapists and murderers at the very least.
>Jaune is literally the worst main character by premise alone.
I repeat; in what way (inb4 repeating the "self-insert" claim started by a hater on SomethingAwful)

>>29811
>>29805
esreveR onU

>Cope and deflection

ur dad a cope

>>18764
Reposting this because it's a leftist classic.

>>29805
>>29811
>>Jaune is literally the worst main character by premise alone.
Ignoring the fact he's obviously the self-insert of his whedonite VA, he gets far more development than NR, and even PRWBY in the beginning, with barely any payoff and no discernable reason except autophilic highschool faggotry.

>murderous thugs who raped, murdered and pillaged ordinary people, before abandoning them to be ravaged by the Grimm

We can't trust what Qrow says, because he's a literal cop and agent, so that leaves us with little knowledge on their modus operandi. Raven vocally espouses social darwinism, yet she also values discipline, or else why would their captive bourgeois brat have been left entirely unharmed. The bolsheviks also never layed hands on the Romanovs leading up to their execution, despite at the time being demonized as thugs and rapists by the whites. On a larger scale, it simply wouldn't make sense for a community of bandits to do more than collect tribute from most villages, when unrestricted looting and pillaging would quickly lead to Grimm overrunning the rural population and cannibalizing their largest source of income.

Ultimately more important are the material conditions such tribes exists in. Mistral is a primarily agricultural kingdom with a weak central authority, still reeling from the collpase of its former slave economy. Bandit tribes arise as the natural outcome of its inability to provide for the peasant population, a rural exodus wiithout an urban labor market, and they are relatively communal in contrast to the rest of Mistral, which is no doubt crawling with landlords. Their lifestyle also makes them less primed for reaction than the rest of Mistral, hell Raven is technically a faunus, something that would hardly escape the notice of genuine bigots. If an analog to the bolsheviks existed in RWBY, they would no doubt recognize bandit communes as the lesser evil.

As Stalin said, the two most important preconditions for industrialization are heavy industry and mechanization of agriculture. Industry in Remnant is already pretty well-developed, likely owing to the fact dust offers such an efficient power source and requires a far lesser degree of centralization, in a world where large populations are a liability. Mistral being shepherded by a dictatorship of the bandit classes could perhaps simultaneously obsolete the state-mandated monopoly of hunstmen on Grimm protection and reduce the amount of resources being funneled away from the rural population, thus spurring a new wave of rural expansion. The style of government would be similar to historical examples of feudal authority, where a large number of governors would be personally appointed by the Empress, while her wandering procession would enforce order among the population and personally hunt larger contingents of Grimm.

There is apparently also fanfiction about Raven as head of a Bonarpartist Mistral government, but at the moment i'm too busy gooning to Vulpes Inculta to read it.
https://fanfiction.net/s/14139853/1/The-Branwen-Republic

>>29875
>he's obviously the self-insert of his whedonite VA
Except he isn't. HBomber literally made a bunch of shit up and over a decade later faggots still regurgitate his nonsense.
Aspects of a Self-Insert: Being a Mary Sue/Gary Stu, wish fulfilment (e.g. romantic), similarities to the author, the plot revolving around them.
1) The character was not created by Miles, it was created specifically by Monty with the intent of being a narrative foil to Ruby; the underdog that has to work his way up compared to the child-prodigy, a classic anime trope (Sasuke and Naruto, Vegeta and Goku etc.) just without the antagonist-rivalry. Monty and Kerry were the ones who asked Jaune to be written into many of the Early Volume episodes (pic rel). Jaune and Miles are pretty different, none of Miles' real life is seen in Jaune's story.
2) Jaune's "romantic wish fulfillment" is non-existant, the person he was into (Weiss) rejected him and he stopped going after her. Pyrrha was largely a one-sided crush by her and was never going to pan out; Monty planned for her to die from the beginning.
3) Jaune is so far from a Gary Stu it's not even funny, he's literally the least competent of them all at the beginning of the story, and his learning curve doesn't suddenly have him become the bestest evar! He fails often, makes mistakes and isn't at all perfect. He has character flaws that he overcomes through natural progression. He isn't handed it.
>he gets far more development than NR
Because he is a main character and a contrast to Ruby.
>even PRWBY
HAHAHAHA no. Pyrrha literally has entire subplots dedicated to her. RWBY had their trailers and most of Volume 1 and 2 to solidify their initial relationships. Jaune got 3-4 episodes out of the first 3 Volumes and he is in the same roster as Ruby. Pyrrha was a secondary character of the main cast like Nora and Ren.
>barely any payoff
>autophilic highschool faggotry
You haven't actually watched the show. This isn't an argument, you're just making a claim that there is no pay off and some pseudointellectual gobbledygook about autophilicism.
So far his character has changed as a hero, from a foolish kid with dreams of heroism to someone that learns to stand up for himself, to have humility and that heroism isn't only about slaying monsters. Team RWBY also has similar progress, the issue with them is that later Volumes fuck shit up for many characters.

If ANY character is a Self-Insert it's fucking Blake Belladonna being Arryn's. Her whole dynamic with Adam was changed from an ex-lover/comrade revolutionary into a straight up fucking incel, all because the voice actor for Adam was Arryn's ex and she self-inserted her break-up with Garrett Hunter. It got so bad that it ruined the White Fang subplot entirely and is one of the most hated parts of the series. Arryn had been shilling for Blake to be a lesbian since day fucking one and before going for the Bees, had constantly pushed for a Blake-Pyrrha ship, to the point that her fellow writers told her to stop. She deliberately went behind the other's back to get scenes added to V4 where Blake slaps Sun hard as well as writing the entire 'lesbian lusting for the straight girl' character subplot in Illia and repeating it with Blake later in V7-9. She outright admitted to adding in lines for Blake regarding her (numerous) bad relationships. She cosplays as Blake (unusual in the VA sphere) and constantly talks about her. She pushed Yang/Blake and reads fanfiction for it including reading a smutfic on stream and generally treats her as her personal project. Blake as a character does so many shitty things in the story and yet is constantly reaffirmed as good and a positive character, in spite of being a toxic dishrag. Not even going into her being a total lib.

>We can't trust what Qrow says

0) "he's a cop" is a fucking retarded dismissal and not even accurate. He's not a cop, that's not what a 'cop' is. As an 'agent' he opposes a literal immoral devil-woman. This isn't the same socio-economic system as the real world.
1) Raven literally confirms Qrow's claims in both action and words
2) Shay D. Mann was literally so mad that Yang beat him up when he tried to fuck her, he led her into an ambush, to presumable rob, rape and kill her, in no particular order. The show just isn't R-Rated for that to be directly said
3) Qrow IS a Branwen and lived that life. Raven implicitly confirms his statement that they were sent to learn how to kill Huntsmen, similar to how the Cartel sends its people to fight in Ukraine.
4) Raven knows who Salem is, what she is and yet continues to essentially do her job for her, dividing people, spreading fear and hate.
5) Finally Qrow isn't the basis of my argument, it's based on what we see. Shion village was raided by Raven and her tribe, they killed the villagers and their defenders, robbed them and left them to be ravaged by the Grimm, attracted by all the fear and negativity. Given that they just have cages sitting around and were going to ransom Weiss, it's obvious they engage in slavery and ransoming and with Shay we see rapist vibes.

Raven knew Beacon was going to fall, and knew the consequences of that (including how much of a victory it is for Salem) and did nothing. Raven has the power to literally form her own city-state and do something useful, but is a petty wastrel ruling over others with magic powers she stole from a girl she murdered arbitrarily. She is the worst person on Remnant for this, worse than Salem in all but scale, because Salem is a creature twisted by her curses and age, Raven is 'human'. She's no different to a cartel warlord or the mafia dons kicked off of Cuba, cancerous scum of humanity.

>the material conditions such tribes exists in

Material conditions do not excuse their actions. They could do what any of the smaller villages that formed specifically to be independent of centralized control do; organize a peaceful commune. We see several. The Branwen's are just being scumbags too lazy to work for their goods.

>it simply wouldn't make sense for a community of bandits to do more than collect tribute from most villages

<implying bandits are sensible and not self-destructive parasites
They're mobile, they can literally raid caravans and then move areas to new 'pastures' like most bandits do.And extortion is little better, literal slumlord behavior.

>If an analog to the bolsheviks existed in RWBY, they would no doubt recognize bandit communes as the lesser evil.

Bandit "communes" LMAO.
>he bolsheviks also never layed hands on the Romanovs leading up to their execution, despite at the time being demonized as thugs and rapists by the whites.
This is in no way comparable and is shifting goal posts; the claim was that "muh Bolsheviks were bandits too!" which is untrue, as they opposed banditism on an ideological and practical level. After the Revolution the Red Army spent years wiping out the Basmachi; Tatar bandits and warlords that did the same shit Raven did, only there aren't Grimm IRL.

>Raven is technically a faunus

HAHAHAHAHA no. This is why you need to pay attention to the show. Nobody fucking knows she can become a literal raven and that's not what a faunus is. The fact that you focus on idpol about 'le bigots' means you completely miss that material conditions made for faunus oppression, not racial bigotry, the latter always arrives as a result of justifications of this.

>fanfiction about Raven as head of a Bonarpartist Mistral governmen

And that's the issue. Raven needs fanfiction to be a likeable character, otherwise all she has is sex appeal for the cumbrains.
The fic is interesting, but the premise is heavily AU.

>>29877
>HBomber literally made a bunch of shit up and over a decade later faggots still regurgitate his nonsense.
THIS
Also as a small addendum to it. Jaune is closer to being an Audience Surrogate, which is not the same as a Self Insert.
The fact that people can't tell the difference speaks to a level of poor media literacy and language education, which you can blame the American School System for. After all this is the same system whose definition of plagiarism is essentially "if its similar its the same" with zero nuance. But I digress.

Anyway if you're so arsed about revolutionary characters and things, there are better characters like Sienna Khan and Adam Taurus. Yes Adam got turned into an incel, but that's just poor writing and meddling from Arryn (along with a myriad of other reasons caused by internal RT bullshit).

A decent Adam fic for example: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/13443524/1/Adam-s-Redemption

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>>29877
>Pyrrha literally has entire subplots dedicated to her.
Only after two Jaune arcs. Most of what we see before the maiden and penny plots is her helping Jaune, in a way that literally does nothing but confirm the previous model-student empath characterization. This structure plot also makes her interest in Jaune seem more like a plot convenience, which has no justification other than Jaune being the first guy to walk up to her and only later sets up a conflict.
>You haven't actually watched the show.
You mean the standard high-school plot about speaking true and turning the other cheek? It's not that deep. Jaundince arc could have been about Ruby and it would only shuffle around minor characterization.
>created specifically by Monty with the intent of being a narrative foil to Ruby
…hobbled by the fact he barely interacts with Ruby after the first few episodes.
>planned for her to die from the beginning.
It should have been Jaune smh
>heroism isn't only about slaying monsters
He does anyway.

>Her whole dynamic with Adam was changed from an ex-lover/comrade revolutionary into a straight up fucking incel.

Adam was always written as a generic terrorist badguy. The only notable development was, that the writers pulled some strings at the end of V6 to make him even more incel-ish and obsessed.
>Arryn had been shilling for Blake to be a lesbian since day fucking one
Good. They wouldn't have written a non-cishet main character otherwise and would have totally gone through with having none of the four heroines be in a genuine relationship ever, even if catpiss was literally the worst option.
>She deliberately went behind the other's back to get scenes added to V4 where Blake slaps Sun hard as well as writing the entire 'lesbian lusting for the straight girl' character subplot in Illia and repeating it with Blake later in V7-9.
>She outright admitted to adding in lines for Blake regarding her (numerous) bad relationships.
Self-inselting is good and immersive, when it adds to the overall characterization without being outright contradictory. Self-inserting is bad and jarring, when it leads to contrived romantic interest and a narratively disposable high-school arc.
>Not even going into her being a total lib.
Don't pretend like the others aren't contemptible libs, especially the writers.

>He's not a cop

It is heavily implied the headmasters exercise direct control over huntsmen. Huntsmen in general are shown to take in citizens for questioning and possess resources only a real-world police-force or military would have, like armoured airships and wait for it… guns! In practice we barely know how huntsmen operate, so they could be anywhere in between mercenaries and the Gestapo.
>Raven implicitly confirms his statement that they were sent to learn how to kill Huntsmen
Why is killing cops bad again?
>Shion village was raided by Raven and her tribe
This doesn't mean they raided every village, just like a cop doesn't shoot every person on the street. If the Branwen tribe was to lay claim on a territory, they would first need establish a monopoly on violence, for example by threatening to loot and pillage every village opposing them. Constant plundering only exists in a war of all against all and can never be maintained over the long term.
>organize a peaceful commune
They are effectively exercising violence over a far greater territory than they would be able to hold, should they settle and practice agriculture instead. Being nomadic also doesn't mean they're vagabonds. They have a vested interest in keeping out major Grimm populations and other bandits from their territories. Considering the events of V6, bandits and unregistered mercenaries are effectively serving the role of huntsmen from that point onward.
>She's no different to a cartel warlord or the mafia dons kicked off of Cuba, cancerous scum of humanity.
Yet she is progressive in relation to the landed gentry of Mistral and the comprador government set up by Vale. The bolsheviks not only eliminated banditry because it was desireable, but also because they could. As i already explained, bandits are a necessary evil within the material conditions of Mistral. They would no doubt support bandits over a reactionary state, which is precisely what they did with the Makhovites.
>The fact that you focus on idpol about 'le bigots' means you completely miss that material conditions made for faunus oppression
The majority of Mistral is already greatly impoverished, therefore bigotry is the most visible facet of Faunus oppression there, in contrast to Vale and Atlas.

And before you think i'm some kind of tourist, who takes the opinions of an unironic psychopath like hbomb at face value, i agree with most RWBY criticism by Critter and pals. Personally i don't the flaws of rwby can be fixed, the most you can do is rewrite major parts of the plot and character development to satisfyingly develop some aspects of the setting, which is why i have multiple drafts of my own lying around. This is some of my favorite fanfiction:
https://www.fanfiction.net/s/14291843/1/The-Second-Torch
https://www.fanfiction.net/s/11777196/1/Last-Huntress
https://archiveofourown.org/works/7205603

>>29879
>Only after two Jaune arcs
What are you talking about? He had 1 arc, the Jaundice episode and a small subplot of him being rejected by Weiss in V2, which was also a Pyrrha subplot, none of those are comparable to the drama we get with Blake being revealed as a faunus and ex-WF member or in Volume 1 when Weiss was given a reality check on her wanting to be Team Leader, or Yang getting Blake to stop burning the candle at both ends while sharing her and Ruby's backstory.
>in a way that literally does nothing but confirm the previous model-student empath characterization
Incorrect. Pyrrha is shown to have a limit to this as well, and is also revealed to be indecisive on a personal level, being unable to openly speak of her crush on Jaune.
>seem more like a plot convenience
It doesn't, it's just a subversion of the typical "girl students crush on the top-student of the school" sort of thing we got with Sasuke.
>no justification other than Jaune being the first guy to walk up to her
Yeah this is why I say you didn't watch or didn't pay attention. Pyrrha outright states that she liked Jaune because he didn't know who she was and so didn't treat her with the reverence others did. This is also implicitly shown with scenes as early as Initiation, when she gets excited when he has no idea who she is. Is it a tad shallow a reason? Sure, but that's a school crush, not unrealistic or a plot convenience. Hell it's not even that necessary to the plot, its characterization material.
>the standard high-school plot about speaking true and turning the other cheek?
That's so vague as to be meaningless. You can say that about almost any story, highschool or not. And also no. Part of the story is NOT turning the other cheek and standing up for yourself (at least with Jaune) and other parts include nuance, reconciliation, understanding opposite sides of a conflict etc.
This isn't a deep novel, and it's not trying to be so your vaguery isn't a criticism so much as a "i don't liek dis"
>Jaundince arc could have been about Ruby and it would only shuffle around minor characterization.
No it couldn't. Ruby is a prodigy, she's shown from the start to be good at fighting, and while shy, she's shown no qualms about expressing her opinion in the face of bossy people or bullies.
>he barely interacts with Ruby after the first few episodes.
You don't need to constantly interact to be narrative foils. Cinder is also a foil to Jaune and Ruby, they don't constantly interact or need to, that's not how Foils work. Also you're straight up fucking incorrect. Jaune interacts with Ruby pretty much every episode of Volume 1 except the Ruby and Weiss centric episode (Badge and Burden) and the last episode where Team RWBY go search for Blake and the White Fang plot begins to kick off.
In Volume 2 the focus is more on Yang, Blake and the White Fang subplot, and so Jaune interacts with Ruby less, but then the first person she calls in the finale is Jaune and the Dance has a multitude of subplots and character interactions. Volume 3 has the least amount but then Volume 4 is literally Jaune and Ruby paired up for the entire RNJR story arc.
>It should have been Jaune smh
Oh you're one of those. No it shouldn't have. Not only does it make no sense for his character to do what Pyrrha did (deciding on a pointless suicide mission because "muh destiny") but if Jaune died Pyrrha would have likely died anyway trying to avenge him.
>He does anyway.
Let me repeat for the illiterate: Heroism isn't ONLY about slaying monsters.
Jaune uses his semblance a lot in a supportive role, his main heroism comes from doing the small but important things like helping children. He isn't suddenly chad mcthundercock one-shotting all the villains.

>Adam was always written as a generic terrorist badguy.

No, he wasn't. Prior to the incel shite he was fairly obvious an extremist, dedicated to his cause. He was literally going to LEAVE Vale entirely prior to Cinder bringing him under heel. Yes his characterization wasn't complete, (because Monty fucking died) but that's what was written up to that point. And then suddenly he becomes this raging man-child suddenly.
>he writers pulled some strings at the end of V6
Again, you haven't paid attention then. Adam's characterization began going off the rails with V4/5. V6 was just the writers putting him down like a fucking animal and permanently cutting off a number of plotthreads that they never fucking addressed; Schnee mistreatment of the Faunus for example. Weiss or Winter never even face Adam, and never face the White Fang again after Beacon. The writing for V4-6 was in part hurt by Monty's death but also because RT was a fucking ghoul and people like Gray Haddock and Arryn fucked over the writing team by doing shit like rerouting funding, or telling the animators to add scenes that weren't in the script.
>Good
Ah, so when it's 'le gay girl' self inserting that's good? Nice double standard
>They wouldn't have written a non-cishet main character otherwise
>would have totally gone through with having none of the four heroines be in a genuine relationship ever
1) cishet is made up liberal terminology, just use gay/lesbian/bi like a normal person, clanker.
2) Good, it would be better that relationships NOT be a focus unless it has narrative or plot significance.
>even if catpiss was literally the worst option.
<I'd rather eat shit than have actual meaningful relationships or just not have arbitrary love dramas out of a soapbox.
>Self-inselting is good and immersive, when it adds to the overall characterization without being outright contradictory.
Maybe, but that isn't fucking Blake. It's not immersive, it's jarring and completely changes Blake's character from a rebel seeking to change the world without resorting to bloodshed, into this pathetic whiny bitch, who later just becomes Yang's suck-up and shoulder-devil, and yet the story keeps telling you "she's good!"
Also LMAO at the "contrived romantic interest" when Blake has fucking FOUR confirmed romantic interests through the story; Adam, Sun, Ilia and Yang and they're all fucking obsessed with her.
>it leads to contrived romantic interest and a narratively disposable high-school arc
Quit whining about made up shit. It's not even a high-school. People join at 18, it's a college more than anything. And it isn't narratively disposable, it's set up. We are introduced to the next generation, they start off small, controlled settings, small problems. Then things become bigger. Hell the most typical school drama is barely a part of the story throughout V1-3 Most schools do not have "team leaders". But I digress.
>Don't pretend like the others aren't contemptible libs
I'm not, but at least Ruby, Jaune, Cinder or Weiss aren't shilling literal liberal ideology nearly verbatim or fucking embodying virtue-signalling.
>heavily implied the headmasters exercise direct control over huntsmen.
Qrow explicitly states that this is not the case in Volume 5, when he goes looking for Huntsmen. Huntsmen are not police nor do they act as police, they are primarily anti-Grimm defence. They do stop crime, but that's not endemic to police; a militia will do the same thing.
>Huntsmen in general are shown to take in citizens for questioning
In regards to a fucking terrorist attack or blatant robbery. See the above.
>possess resources only a real-world police-force or military would have, like armoured airships
Where did you get armored? LMAO. Bullheads are common transport for civilians within the story. Again you're just making shit up. The only resource they have available to them that isn't available to the average person (Aura is present in all people and even animals. Dust is literally sold and used in near EVERYTHING on Remnant) is their Huntsman ID and access to missions, which makes sense; the average person can't safely do those.
>so they could be anywhere in between mercenaries and the Gestapo.
Or we can go by what we actually see, wherein most Huntsmen and Huntresses are free-agents taking missions that they want to take and rejecting those they do not and having no obligation to any one kingdom or person, this is specifically how their role is structured, to be essentially international and only beholden to uphold basic laws (so they can't just be mercenaries killing regular people for money).
>Why is killing cops bad again?
Ok internet toughguy
>This doesn't mean they raided every village
At this point I am genuinely concerned with your reading comprehension. I literally addressed this.
>If the Branwen tribe was to lay claim on a territory, they would first need establish a monopoly on violence, for example by threatening to loot and pillage every village opposing them
That doesn't change the fact that this creates fear and hatred, attracting the Grimm, or it exploiting ordinary working people that can't live in a city or afford to hire a Huntsman. My point stands; Raven is a fucking
>They are effectively exercising violence over a far greater territory than they would be able to hold
Bullshit and irrelevant. She's the fucking Spring Maiden, she can literally call down a thunderstorm and strike people precisely with lightning. For all intents and purposes to the ordinary layman she is a god within a large radius of her encampment. And yet she does what Salem did when she attempted to act as a goddess and strives to force people under her will
>Being nomadic also doesn't mean they're vagabonds.
I never claimed that. That also doesn't change the fact that they ARE vagabonds; this is a Nonsequitur.
>They have a vested interest in keeping out major Grimm populations
Except they provably don't. Raven was in the area when The Nuckelavee first began terrorizing Mistral and until RNJR put it down was happy to let it roam around and kill hundreds of men. To go back to Huntsmen BTW; that is a perfect example of why they exist; we see the Nuck's cave, littered with dozens of weapons of people that failed to kill it, because like Ren's dad, they weren't Huntsmen.
>bandits and unregistered mercenaries are effectively serving the role of huntsmen from that point onward.
LOL no, we never see this in V6.
>she is progressive in relation to the landed gentry of Mistral
No she isn't. Read a fucking book and stop being a radlib. This is the same shit as those retards that claim Mexican Cartels are "progressive" because they're anti-authoritarian; such a first-world take that it's ridiculous.
>comprador
You have brainworms and clearly read too much shitty fanfiction. Mistral was literally a slaver country a century before this and lost a war to Vale, which abolished monarchist institutions including its own, as the King of Vale abdicated after defeating Mantle and Mistral.
>also because they could
What a meaningless statement. Bolsheviks never endorsed terrorizing or looting ordinary people. The heists that Stalin took part in or other acts of terror were directed at the government and government institutions of Czarist Russia.
>They would no doubt support bandits over a reactionary state
<Mistral is now a reactionary state
This is why liberals should be beaten over the head with the Das Kapital and Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism; you don't even know what REACTIONARY means. Reactionary means to use government policy to force things to go back to a previous socio-economic state. The terms are relative to what the past and present of any given country is. A reactionary government in Mistral would be one trying to return to slavery and racist policies, except we don't see that.
The Makhnovites were leftist anarchists, and not JUST bandits. They were still crushed afterwards because they started to lash out and attack the Bolsheviks after their main target fled West, and essentially allowed their forces to loot and kill the local populace with impunity. The only reason the Bolsheviks didn't stop them sooner was because the Russian Civil War involved so many different groups and foreign invaders that the Bolsheviks didn't have time or resources to waste on dealing with them and used their opposition to Denikin. The Bolsheviks did not make alliances with Basmachi or other straight up reactionary bandits however, or support them in any way.
>i agree with most RWBY criticism by Critter and pals
Judgemental Critter is only half-right SOMETIMES and other "critics" are usually completely wrong. Stop taking your cues from youtube ECelebs.
>favorites
<Coeur
HAHAHA I knew it! To be fair most of his fics start off really well, they just always derail and either have mid endings or end in ways that drive people nuts. Second Torch is one of his better works, partly because it's an older one.
the Ao3 link isn't just AU but very OOC. I know this fic and it's the equivalent of every edgelord!Naruto gay fanfic.

>>29882
>Pyrrha outright states that she liked Jaune because he didn't know who she was and so didn't treat her with the reverence
I meant that literally. Given the odds it should have been Ruby, but if they wanted a guy, it could have been Fox or Yatsuhashi for all intents and purposes. Just a decent guy, that's the territory we're in and the reason it feels like a moid is self-inserting.
>It doesn't, it's just a subversion of the typical "girl students crush on the top-student of the school" sort of thing we got with Sasuke.
This is exactly why it feels contrived, to have that crush on a wet blanket who develops into a slightly moist blanket with empathy. This is made even more dire by the fact he is terminally unfunny.
>Part of the story is NOT turning the other cheek
He indulges in the cliche about saving his bully, which is so much of a cliche at this point, it should either be subverted or not brought up at all. No one wants to watch Saved By The Bell again.
>she's shown no qualms about expressing her opinion in the face of bossy people or bullies.
Neither does Jaune before being threatened. Blackmail plots are designed to manufacture this exact situation, where a character is forced to grovel in front of someone unpleasant, and only reverse this dynamic in a final act of sex bravery. Honestly it would have lent Ruby more credence as a 15-year old dork.
>You don't need to constantly interact to be narrative foils.
His in-person dynamic with Ruby is about the only halfway well-thought out thing about Jaune and they squander it by most of the time relegating Ruby to the character the plot takes a dump on.

>Prior to the incel shite he was fairly obvious an extremist

And to the writers this meant he was a power-hungry maniac + abusive boyfriend. The people who deny this mentally wrote their own fanfiction for him after the black trailer and are grasping at straws to deny the showrunners being uberlibs.
>Again, you haven't paid attention then.
I'm aware they set this up all throughout the second quarter. What they did was show a feared and respected leader lose that in service of a personal vendetta, which we know is retarded for a supposed revolutionary, yet totally in line with their Adam characterization.

>it would be better that relationships NOT be a focus unless it has narrative or plot significance.

ReNora is relatively isolated from the larger plot, yet it still works to flesh out the characters and serves as the catalyst for a subplot. If every plot threat is chekhovs hairpin trigger (which is NOT RWBY i'm sure you're aware), you're writing a play not a story. Romance is simply a very large aspect of the human experience, that should be addressed beyond a formulaic prom plot.
>I'd rather eat shit
Food metaphors are retarded, but try this: If i didn't like pickles, i'd rather have a burger with pickles than without any salad at all.
>Blake's character from a rebel seeking to change the world without resorting to bloodshed, into this pathetic whiny bitch, who later just becomes Yang's suck-up and shoulder-devil
Is it consistent with Blake's and Yang's character development and the writers being libs? Yes. Do i like it? No.
>Ruby, Jaune, Cinder or Weiss aren't shilling literal liberal ideology nearly verbatim or fucking embodying virtue-signalling.
You can blame the VAs all you want. It's the writers who wanted to insert this ideology into the show and ostensibly found their "moral compass" in BY.

>Bullheads are common transport for civilians

Would you take a moment to think about the ramifications of this? Civilian transports are always at risk of Grimm attack, therefore, in the case of trains, they hire huntsmen as protection, or, in the case of airships, they are piloted by literal soldiers. The fact huntsmen academies are permitted to own airships, no doubt secured against airborne Grimm, says something about their society. If for the Cinder/WhiteFang/Torchwick alliance, having a couple of mechs is a big deal, they would scarcely have a lot more than than one airship we see in V1E1, putting the fact the academy ferries huntsmen by airship into perspective.
>They do stop crime, but that's not endemic to police; a militia will do the same thing.
Which is it then? Do they need permission from the police or a court for things like questioning or did they take in Ruby on a whim in V1E1? Either they're Grimm exterminators or they're the Grimm police (secret police in case of Oz).

>Raven was in the area when The Nuckelavee first began terrorizing Mistral

Chat is this true? While RNJR had the misfortune of crossing it, the wiki states it wiped out everyone in Kuroyuri and the two neighbouring towns, after which it had been chilling in the vicinity ever since. Attacking it would have been the definition of poking a hornet nest.
>She's the fucking Spring Maiden, she can literally call down a thunderstorm and strike people precisely with lightning.
Terrible idea. Did you forget the part, where the fall maiden is literally assassinated?
>This is the same shit as those retards that claim Mexican Cartels are "progressive" because they're anti-authoritarian
Never mentioned le authoritarianism. Call me when they have marxist guerillias in Remnnant.
>Mistral was literally a slaver country a century before this
Which is precisely why, in addition to their Grimm-induced shortage of arable land, they need a feudalist revolution, a reconquista by their existing noble class; literally anything that gets armed people to spread out throughout their territory. A strong government could have reformed the huntsmen system into a citizen's militia beholden to local administration, yet Mistral is canonically corrupt and weak outside the capital. Lionhearts betrayal is as much a condemnation of him as of the entire state of the political system sythesized from their previous autocracy and the post-war academy system

Compare Raven to the historical role of the Gothic or Anglo-Saxon tribes, who were for all intents of purposes kleptocractic. What distinguished them from petty bandits, was their national character, the women and children living within their community and their precarious integration into Rome as a militarily capable underclass. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people in the bandit tribes were former huntsmen and became members due to poverty or other systemic defects we don't know about. This is one reason i liked Coeur's fic, because in regards to Torchwick's character, it hints at some of the socio-political worldbuilding the show proper lacks. The overarching Salem conspiracy was their single worst lore decision and it flattens every ideological antagonist to the heroines, from Raven to Ironwood, into a chauvinist badguy, while they remain compassionate goodguys (which no doubt adds up with your gripes about BY).

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>>29883
>Given the odds it should have been Ruby, but if they wanted a guy
I repeat, pay attention to the show and how it was made. Monty deliberately wrote Team JNPR parallel to historical and mythological references to characters that crossdressed; Joan de Arc, Achilles, Thor, Mulan. Jaune was also a foil character to Ruby; he's made fellow Team Leader and since HIS Team ISN'T RWBY he forms relationships with the others, primarily first Pyrrha because Ren and Nora were a background dynamic. There's details on details on why Jaune was written as he was. He starts from the bottom. He's not meant to be this totally likeable Gary-Stu, it's part of his character progression, he fails a lot, is the butt of jokes and generally has to improve as a person in every way and earns it. You can call anything that does this a plot contrivance but that misuses the meaning.
>could have been Fox or Yatsuhashi
No, it couldn't have, for a number of reasons in and outside the story. Fox and Yatsu weren't designed yet, are older and don't match up.
>muh moids
Touch grass and don't be a femcel
>why it feels contrived
It doesn't. Jaune is ignorant, especially as to who Pyrrha is. Pyrrha is a socially isolated prodigy desperate for normalcy and Jaune fills that niche. It's not just a contrivance because it's part of Pyrrha's character and in some ways a flaw of hers, as her world view about being on a pedestal is what leads to her own death.
>a wet blanket
Do you even know what "wet blanket" means?
<a person who spoils other people's fun, enthusiasm, or enjoyment, acting as a damper on social situations or positive energy. Pessimistic or negative, they may doubt new ideas, complain frequently, or refuse to participate in enjoyable activities.
Jaune does none of those things, outside of the one arc where he learns to get over the macho attitude of "doing things on my own" and have the humility to accept help from others, he has never been a downer and always had empathy from the beginning.
>he is terminally unfunny
To you, because you clearly have some sort of bug up your ass over him
>cliche
Not a cliche, but a trope. It's a moment of do or die, where he proves that he's not some whiny loser when push comes to shove. Again this is early Volume 1 when the story is forming, the characters are being introduced, the setting elaborated on and so on.
>it should either be subverted
<everything has to be a subversion!
Then it's not a subversion, it's just another trope. This is a burger mindset that things can't just exist because 'other things did before'.
>No one wants to watch Saved By The Bell again.
You keep saying things like you speak for a majority. Stop using words, terms and references you scarcely understand to make claims that are nonsense.
>Neither does Jaune before being threatened
Jaune literally spends an entire scene denying being bullied and doing and saying nothing through a montage of Cardin being an ass. The only time he says anything is during the spar where he's saying a "cool catchphrase" because he's naive and trying to act like a movie character.
>muh blackmail plots
And? What of it? Nothing wrong with that.
>in a final act of sex bravery
This is lib mentality. Nobody thinks about shit like this unless they're either a complete brain-rotted coomer or a sexuality-obsessed lib that has to make everything crass.
>the only halfway well-thought out thing about Jaune
Again, you just make this claim yet your arguments hinges on "I don't like this".

>to the writers this meant he was a power-hungry maniac + abusive boyfriend.

Except that's not what his prior portrayal displayed him as. He goes from a radical revolutionary to being a bargain-bin terrorist-incel.
>deny this mentally wrote their own fanfiction for him
No, It's well known that Volume 3 was changed from what Monty had originally wrote and later Volumes only doubled down on that.
>show a feared and respected leader lose that in service of a personal vendetta, which we know is retarded for a supposed revolutionary, yet totally in line with their Adam characterization.
Except it's retarded for the story, as it turns an important plot about social issues that the White Fang represent and essentially waves a wand and is never thought about again. Adam spoke calmly and decisively. Hell even in Volume 3 he was threatening Blake with a quiet intensity of an executioner. Then up until his death he suddenly starts ranting and raving in a teenage tantrum. It's jarring to anyone paying attention. It's not just Adam who suddenly changes as a character for no good reason. Yang becomes progressively more of an air-headed cunt rather than a rowdy but also thoughtful older sister, Blake goes from the aloof, troubled rebel into a bratty LITERAL princess who virtue signals on others while being a hypocrite. etc.
>it still works to flesh out the characters and serves as the catalyst for a subplot.
And? You're proving my point.
>If every plot threat is chekhovs hairpin trigger
A ship or potential ship should have NARRATIVE or Plot impact. It's why WhiteRose is stupid; like Catpiss it's just a boring yuritease for smutwriters to wank over.
>consistent with Blake's and Yang's character development
That's the point, their character development consists of them changing completely as characters. Yang still holds on a bit in places up to V6, but Blake is known as "shitty kitty" in the fandom because of it.
>If i didn't like pickles, i'd rather have a burger with pickles than without any salad at all.
…wat
>You can blame the VAs all you want
I can because after Monty died they had a lot of influence because of how interwoven RT and CRWBY staff were. Kerry got in on things because he was "Barb's boobwrangler", Arryn dated Miles and Barbara dated Garrett (my mistake before) and all this makes for a bunch of people meddling in the writing where they shouldn't.
>writers who wanted to insert this ideology into the show
The writers are liberals, nobody is denying that. My point is that A) That's not the story Monty was telling B) It's not what RWBY was like prior. It's obvious that Arryn hijacked writing Blake because the liberalism in her plotline is significantly worse than in the RNJR plot.
>Would you take a moment to think about the ramifications of this? Civilian transports are always at risk of Grimm attack, therefore, in the case of trains, they hire huntsmen as protection, or, in the case of airships, they are piloted by literal soldiers.
We see that piloting a bullhead is done by pilots, hence their equipment.
>huntsmen academies are permitted to own airships, no doubt secured against airborne Grimm, says something about their society.
It doesn't really say anything, and as far as I'm aware those bullheads are not owned by the school, they run out of Vale and serve all of Vale, treated as aerial buses.
>having a couple of mechs is a big deal
They had a dozen and The Paladin was literally a cutting-edge new weapon. That makes it a big deal for the rebels with no real military-industrial production.
>they would scarcely have a lot more than than one airship
The White Fang literally operated 4 in Volume 1 when raiding the docks for Dust. Penny destroyed like 3 of them. Later Roman escapes his destroyed mech on another Bullhead. Clearly those things are easy to acquire.
>did they take in Ruby on a whim in V1E1?
Glynda brought her to the police department because she was involved with a robbery attempt.
>Either they're Grimm exterminators or they're the Grimm police
Things are not just black and white, but this is especially stupid. Grimm are soulless monsters. They are exterminated, but they're also an endless horde. Additionally Hunters are people. If some guy is getting mugged and you can stop it easily, why wouldn't you?
>Chat is this true?
When RNJR arrive at Shion village, Ren finds the hoofprint of the Nuck at the ruins of the town, implying that after Raven and her band left, it and other Grimm came in. Furthermore at the Nuck's cave we see dozens upon dozens of weapons and banners (including from Shion village) lying around, clearly towns had attempted to kill or defend themselves from it.
>poking a hornet nest.
Team RNJR defeated it. Raven is the Spring Maiden and powerful fighter she could literally bisect it casually or freeze it or set it aflame without even coming into its sight.
>the fall maiden is literally assassinated?
Amber did not have nearly Raven's control or power and was alone fighting against 3 of some of the best fighters in the series. Raven has her tribe and is clearly powerful enough to fight off anyone 1v1 save another maiden. She also clearly demonstrated the control needed to misdirect people and make them think Vernal was the Spring Maiden instead of her. By having the powers as it was she was a target and she clearly used them at Shion as Qrow states.
>Never mentioned le authoritarianism.
It's implicit in the fact that you make out Raven to be progressive for essentially being a renegade.
>they need a feudalist revolution
What are you on about. They LITERALLY eliminated the feudal system across Remnant, that was part of the conclusion of the Great War. Huntsmen didn't exist prior to the Great War because the concept was cemented afterwards, as part of the conclusion of the war was due to the Grimm ravaging towns while people were busy fighting each other and the need to refocus a united front against them.
>citizen's milita
There already exist militias and defenses. You're basically discarding a core concept of RWBY. Huntsmen and Huntresses aren't beholden to any administration, they are only beholden to their telling duties.
>Mistral is canonically corrupt and weak outside the capital
>Lionhearts betrayal is as much a condemnation of him as of the entire state of the political system sythesized from their previous autocracy and the post-war academy system
This is true, but that's the point.
>kleptocractic
You're taking the meaning of kleptocratic too literally. The Germanic tribes you speak of were primitive because of their level of socio-economic development and being tribalist. Raven isn't comparable at all; they didn't know anything else, the historical dialectics hadn't progressed enough for them to unify and form feudal systems that inevitably occur. Raven chose to go this route.
>Their national character, the women and children living within their community and their precarious integration into Rome as a militarily capable underclass.
Sure. I don't see Raven's relevance to this.
>if a lot of people in the bandit tribes were former huntsmen and became members due to poverty or other systemic defects we don't know about.
They're not Huntsmen. They have aura and some training but Qrow explicitly states that he and Raven were sent to Beacon to learn the same skills and abilities as Huntsmen so as to kill them, implying that the tribe didn't have anyone comparable.
>it hints at some of the socio-political worldbuilding the show proper lacks
The show does have a bit, especially in Volume 6 as we see with The Spiders. A lot of material was cut out because of V4-6's production was fucked over by Gray Haddock's mismanagement as Animation Department Head. Couer also takes plenty of material from Roman Holiday. Additionally there's material in Grimm Campaign and Arrowfell on corruption and such but that's not IN the show outright sadly.
>The overarching Salem conspiracy was their single worst lore decision
Salem has ALWAYS been part of the lore since the first episode.
>flattens every ideological antagonist to the heroines
Actually it doesn't. Ironwood as an antagonist wasn't bad because of Salem, it was because of execution.

>>29884
>muh monty
>muh plvnned from the beginning
I don't care for this.

>Jaune literally spends an entire scene denying being bullied and doing and saying nothing through a montage of Cardin being an ass.

Him playing it off seems like more of a "won't admit to weaknesss" thing. He doesn't want to respond to the hazing, neither would he not tell CRDL off, if they asked him to do the things he did under the threat of blackmail.

>WhiteRose is stupid

Wdym? Their V1 dynamic is fire.
>the liberalism in her plotline is significantly worse than in the RNJR plot
I can't imagine how they would tie that in on a literal camping trip.
>When RNJR arrive at Shion village, Ren finds the hoofprint of the Nuck at the ruins of the town, implying that after Raven and her band left
So your assertion Raven made a conscious choice to let the region be destroyed, is based on the assumption that the Grimm, other raiders or even the inhabitants wouldn't be capable of leaving ruins? The gang's initial obliviousness to the Apathy implies a village overtaken by a wave of Grimm would definitely be left a ruin, without the need for any sort of outside intervention.
>Raven has her tribe and is clearly powerful enough to fight off anyone 1v1
She knows she would unironically have to deal with a force of nature though. Revealing her identity would paint a target on her back and this is what ostensibly happens after V6, when goes into hiding.

>If some guy is getting mugged and you can stop it easily, why wouldn't you?

No you're the burger.
>Huntsmen and Huntresses aren't beholden to any administration, they are only beholden to their telling duties.
Which i presume are laid out by the academies, who by convention already command a sizeable portion of huntsmen and huntsman candidates. Of alll of them Ironwood is the one with the most political power, still i think it is implied the headmaster position comes with a substantial amount of power, both in men and resources. How else would they further a century-spanning international (counter?) conspiracy?

>They LITERALLY eliminated the feudal system across Remnant, that was part of the conclusion of the Great War.

And i'm saying the material conditions of Mistral warrant a more decentralized kind of "warrior class" than the academy system. The Grimm have literally regressed the state many of regions into that of Terra Nullius and some kind of organized settler class is required to make it productive again. Proto-feudalist banditry seems to me as the solution naturally arising from the Mistrali polity and in my eyes this elevates it above the prospect of their foreign interference or their existing, transplanted political system, at a juncture where large-scale working class or even peasant organization isn't on the table.
>The Germanic tribes you speak of were primitive because of their level of socio-economic development and being tribalist.
Regardless they essentially used military might to instate themselves as the despots of land and industry initially cultivated by the declining Roman empire, something you might describe as proto-feudal. Accounts of the Visigothic reign in Hispania are especially brutal, yet it no doubt played a key part in the establishment of manorialism and the supersession of the fragile Roman economy.

>there's material in Grimm Campaign and Arrowfell

Good to know. I might play it after i get around to fixing my pc graphics.
>Ironwood as an antagonist wasn't bad because of Salem, it was because of execution.
Except it mirrors the Great War lore, in that the threat of Grimm pushes Ironwood to adopt anti-liberal policies, while the gang chides him for dividing humanity. Salem's existence mean he IS playing straight into her plans and it was clear-cut, shortsighted act of villainy of him to abandon Mantle.

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>>29885
>I don't care for this.
And you're not the creator or writer or animator for RWBY, you are an anon on the internet. Either way, strawman non-argument.
>Him playing it off seems like more of a "won't admit to weaknesss" thing
You're splitting hairs.
>muh blackmail
Happened way after constant hazing and bullying, therefore irrelevant.
>Their V1 dynamic
Consists of bickering and reconciliation as Weiss has a character arc. That's not a ship, that's building friendship.
>I can't imagine how they would tie that in on a literal camping trip.
It's not that hard; throw in some feminist or racial idpol with various character interactions and you get typical liberal tripe writing. Which they didn't do.
>based on the assumption that the Grimm, other raiders or even the inhabitants wouldn't be capable of leaving ruins?
1) Don't be obtuse, Raven and her band are the ONLY bandits in the story and narratively that's who we are supposed to think of, it doesn't make sense for there to be another random bandit group that is never even shown to have done this.
2) Raven confirms it when Qrow talks about the remains of Shion village and how she has the Spring Maiden in her camp based on the destruction seen. Qrow is familiar with the maiden powers and knows their capabilities.
3) The huntsman that dies in front of RNJR also confirms it was bandits, followed by Grimm.
4) The Apathy is literally the worst example you could pick because they didn't destroy the village at all.
Either way you're coping; Raven knew there were Grimm in the area and did nothing.
>i presume are laid out by the academies
You're nitpicking out of spite.
>who by convention already command a sizeable portion of huntsmen and huntsman candidates
Again, the Huntsmen are not commanded by the academies, this is explicitly stated.
>the headmaster position comes with a substantial amount of power, both in men and resources.
>further a century-spanning international (counter?)
conspiracy?
Yeah, leadership positions tend to come with influence, no shit. What's your point? Also The Academies were founded just over 80s years before the present of RWBY. There were no Academy Headmasters before this.
>the material conditions of Mistral warrant a more decentralized kind of "warrior class" than the academy system.
THEY'RE ALREADY DECENTRALIZED; THE ACADEMY CANNOT DICTATE WHAT THEY DO AFTER GRADUATION AND YOU DO NOT NEED TO ATTEND AN ACADEMY TO BECOME A HUNTSMAN.
>Grimm have literally regressed the state many of regions into that of Terra Nullius and some kind of organized settler class is required to make it productive again
1) This was caused by The Great War leading to dozens of settlements being wiped out due to division of people.
2) THEY HAVE been trying this. Argus was built precisely by Atlas and Mistral reclaiming that territory from the Grimm, Mountain Glenn was an attempt at that and was sabotaged. We literally see new and fallen settlements in Mistral and Vale in the main show, the comics and in the LNs.
>Proto-feudalist banditry seems to me as the solution naturally
Stop right there you discount AnPrim. The solution is never "lets become tribal bandits" THAT is reactionary and anti-proletarian.
>in my eyes this elevates it above the prospect of their foreign interference or their existing, transplanted political system
Then you haven't studied history or theory for shit. Banditry becomes war-lord feudalism, the idea that this will become anything but a constantly collapsing shithole of loose rural villages and barricaded towns is laughable. Read the /edu/ thread on feudal Japan for a good understanding of what life was like for peasants then.
>where large-scale working class or even peasant organization isn't on the table.
Why the fuck isn't it?
>Accounts of the Visigothic reign in Hispania are especially brutal, yet it no doubt played a key part in the establishment of manorialism and the supersession of the fragile Roman economy.
And what changed from the Roman Empire? Functionally nothing except The Romans had literacy and a large technological / industrial base. The various North-European tribes replicated Rome's social-structure in the Medieval Era, but without those it essentially relied only on peasant economy and artisan craftsmen with no proper organization. It was literally a step down from Rome's socio-economic system in terms of progress. There's good reason why it gets called the Dark Ages, despite modern liberal crying.
>it mirrors the Great War lore, in that the threat of Grimm pushes Ironwood to adopt anti-liberal policies
>Salem's existence mean he IS playing straight into her plans
History is a spiral, so it mirroring that is fine. Salem or not, the grimm are a mass threat. However the reason people say it's because of shit execution is BECAUSE of shit execution. The plot goes out of its way to have a parallel to the 2016 US Election because RT had gone off the rails. Then we have Ironwood doing retarded things that are out of character for him or his way of thinking. He's a military tactician trying to think strategically, yet somehow doesn't seem to understand that due to proximity, protecting Mantle protects Atlas, and so deploying ships there would be perfectly fine. This is entirely contradictive to how he thinks, in part because RT doesn't understand how military commanders are supposed to think.
>it was clear-cut, shortsighted act of villainy of him to abandon Mantle.
And it made no fucking sense. His whole flaw and moral was being the "tinman that lost his heart" and whose paranoia got the better of him and who was ready to sacrifice anything to achieve his goals. Yet instead his goals shift, his behavior and actions shift and stop making any rational sense, especially the abandonment of Mantle and more importantly insisting on nuking Mantle regardless, despite Salem and Monstro getting nuked by Oz. It's shit writing that doesn't match his character.

>>29886
>That's not a ship, that's building friendship.
Ok mr. "dating isn't about friendship".
>throw in some feminist or racial idpol with various character interactions and you get typical liberal tripe writing.
You're livid. The menagerie plot never brings up le feminism, except maybe Blake lowkey antagonizing Sun, which is never framed in any serious way. It's a simple case of Play stupid fantasy racism games / Win stupid libshit prizes.

>The Academies were founded

That's the point. They're supposed to be Oz's vehicle to further his plot. We know at the start of the story he has 3 maidens, 4 academies + staff, the military might of all of Atlas and at least 1 federal agent. What else?
>THEY'RE ALREADY DECENTRALIZED
From the wiki:
>Some gifted Huntsmen, such as Maria Calavera, can acquire their licenses by taking a licensing exam, forgoing the need to attend the academies.
>In some rare cases, the Headmasters of the academies can grant individuals their licenses without the need for a proper graduation or taking the licensing exam, as was the case with James Ironwood who granted Teams RWBY and JNR their licenses after arriving in Atlas.
Academies are explicitely stated to be the site of a Mandarin-esque examination system. I don't see how that could go wrong…

>We literally see new and fallen settlements

And this is the problem. As of 80 years Vale and Atlas form a cushy imperial core, while Mistral and Vacuo continue to be laid to waste. This is why i expressly advocated for feudalism, the historical movement that made large swathes of land productive without a profit motive, because capitalists will already have done the math and found it a losing proposition.
>Why the fuck isn't it?
If it was, they would come and seize their opportunity. Mistral already is a literal failed state outside the capital.

>There's good reason why it gets called the Dark Ages

Stop being a Romaboo. Their economy was literally dependent on a constant influx of slaves for most of its live. Only the political and technical innovations brought by feudalism made a large-scale pastoral lifestyle viable within all of Europe. Actual medievalists, like liberal darling Grover Furr for instance, are very vocal about this https://academic.oup.com/book/8856/chapter-abstract/155073303
>literacy
You act like monasticism, the Islamic scientific revolution and East Rome didn't come as an exact result of the spread of Latin literature and were responsible for measureless theoretical innovation in their own right.
>large technological / industrial base
Never happened. The Roman industrial base was even more scattered and artisinal than the medieval one. When people fish for technological progress, they mostly look at marvels produced for entertainment in places like Alexandria, which don't accurately represent the piecemeal advancement of the productive forces, that actually took place.

>History is a spiral

Thing is writers are liberals, so anti-liberalism is le bad on the face of it. What decision could they even set up with his semblance posturing?
- Telling the world about Salem? The gang already did that.
- Militarizing his society? Always has been.
- Sending the Atlas military into other kingdoms? That could be a productive gamble, but would mean directly reneging on his earlier promise.
I don't see how they could have written themselves out of that, apart from a stupid bout of national chauvinism.

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>>29887
>mr. "dating isn't about friendship".
You're shifting goalposts.
>You're livid
No, I'm annoyed because you're being a liberal while calling the writers liberal.
>The menagerie plot never brings up le feminism
I never said it did. You said you "couldn't imagine" how the writers could make the plot liberal for RNJR, I provided a broad example of how, we see that in later Volumes. Again, stop putting words in my figurative mouth.
>which is never framed in any serious way.
She literally slaps him around 3 times, and not playfully but angrily. That's only 'not serious' because the writers bend over backwards to have characters simp for Blake.
>They're supposed to be Oz's vehicle to further his plot. We know at the start of the story he has 3 maidens, 4 academies + staff, the military might of all of Atlas and at least 1 federal agent.
You're just ignoring everything I'm saying on the details, up to and including the fact that he does not, in fact "have 3 maidens 4 academies and staff and Atlas' military" Ironwood straight up defies him in bringing the Atlesian Fleet to Vale and then uses The Breach to have the Valean council remove him from security operations for Vytal Festival. The only 'control' he has is in the sense that the other Headmasters protect the Vaults. And he didn't have 3 maidens; he had 1 and then 1/2 a maiden in Amber and 1 in reserve status with the literal nursing home resident Fria. Ozpin had no idea what Penny was until the last moment when it was too late.
>Academies are explicitely stated to be the site of a Mandarin-esque examination system.
Explicitly stated where? This is mentioned nowhere. An exam for a license is fairly normal to be state regulated, since you have to pass regulations for ability to get the license.
>As of 80 years Vale and Atlas form a cushy imperial core
<Isolated city-states acting as fortresses against the Grimm
<Imperial
Do you know what imperialism even is? This makes literally no fucking sense because there are no periphery nations (except MAYBE Menagerie) that they could be exerting imperial influence over and a primary complaint about Menagerie from Blake is that its left on its own. The only state that technically follows the definition of being Imperial is Atlas and even then its missing the export of capital. We see no oligarchy in Vale or Mistral and particularly Vacuo.
>why i expressly advocated for feudalism
And you're an idiot. Read Marx. You're literally advocating for a REACTIONARY action. Hell we literally see it in Vacuo with The Crown.
>made large swathes of land productive without a profit motive
<Feudalism
<without a profit motive
Every successful feudal lord constantly expands and accumulates more and more resources and power, including for increasing trade and so providing more. The primary difference is that rather than financial profit, it's resources and manpower.
Cockshott also isn't talking about societies or groups that 'return' to feudalism because he is discussing societies that progressed to the point of feudalism in their socio-economic development. A society that advanced past feudalism into capitalism, then reverts back is regressive and worse; the people of the past did not know any better as socio-economic development hadn't progressed enough yet, but going back is just warlordism. Congratulations, a return to slavery in Mistral!
>Stop being a Romaboo.
I am not. From a socio-economic perspective Rome was more advanced than Northern Europe. This is a historical fact. Stop being a liberal. Liberal historians whine about it being called the Dark Ages, but what do you call it when most of the population stopped being literate, industrial and technological progress ceased and regressed and even art regressed in a technical aspect.
>Their economy was literally dependent on a constant influx of slaves for most of its live
I am well aware, given that I wrote a thesis on that. Slavery in Rome is not the same as chattel slavery in the USA. Peasantry in Feudalism were in no better condition; slaves in Rome were defined as being property without citizenship rights, the details past that were irrelevant. Peasantry were only not "slaves" because there lacked a legal infrastructure to define them as such but serfs and most other Peasants were functionally slaves, including their being property of the lords that could be sold to other lords and punished with impunity by their 'betters'. This is seen in Imperial Feudal Russia up to the Revolution.
>Only the political and technical innovations brought by feudalism made a large-scale pastoral lifestyle viable within all of Europe
You really didn't closely read what you posted
>"These developments pushed up physical output, but mostly had a negative effect on living standards."
None of this contradicts what I said about Feudalism and socio-economic development.
>You act like monasticism, the Islamic scientific revolution and East Rome didn't come as an exact result of the spread of Latin literature and were responsible for measureless theoretical innovation in their own right.
No I did not. East Rome IS directly Roman culture, are you daft? Furthermore we were speaking of Medieval, feudal Europe after the Roman Empire, specifically in the context of Germanic tribes and the rise of North-European Monarchies.
Monasticism primarily preserved old knowledge and for a long time was exclusive privilege for religious institutions and even kings and nobility were illiterate for a long time. The first modern Universities didn't open until centuries after Rome had fell. University of Paris opened in the 12th century, around the same time as feudalism was beginning what would lead to the transition into capitalism as market economies and finance became more and more prominent.
Finally the Islamic states were not feudal and in fact had many aspects that would become central in capitalism, such as a great focus on markets and trade and accumulation of capital (including financial capital).
>The Roman industrial base was even more scattered and artisinal than the medieval one.
Yeah you're just outright talking out of your ass at this point. Do you know how the Aqueducts were constructed? They required large machines, standardized design, precise measurement and all in large quantities. This could not be and was not handled by artisan craftsmen, this was done through an organized system where different roles were handled by different sets of people, stone-masons, crane operators, architects and laborers who did the dirty work. Within the stonework, metal piping was laid, filtration and settling facilities were built and maintained, etc. Then there was the production of Roman cement. These aqueducts are demonstration of industrial ability on its own, but on top of that the water was used to power industry; mills, fulling, irrigation of fields and even using it to assist in mining and rock processing. It's primitive by modern standards but far ahead of what would exist when the Medieval Ages began. It took centuries for much of this to be reinnovated in Europe and some aspects like metal piping only returned centuries AFTER the Medieval Age.
So in short the only one 'fishing' is you.

>What decision could they even set up with his posturing?

To be honest almost the entire plot of V7/8 should have been rewritten for nearly every character. But that's a whole essay. Even just adjusting Ironwood's actions would still fix some of it. You struck out semblance, but that's precisely the crux of it. Rather than make him a schizo, have him be coldly rational the more he goes on; as I said a reversal of the Tinman is a part of this. To repost an older take from 8moe /rwby/: Ironwood was essentially rewritten to ignore any rational consistency, yet his semblance is supposed to lock him INTO rational decisions. Ironwood would and should be a character that makes hard decisions but also fights to the end, not "run from Salem into the sky."
1) Rather than abandoning Mantle, lock it down and place the population into camps "for their protection" and have officers filter people on who can go up to Atlas (as a primary concern of Ironwood's about the evacuation of Mantle was allowing in agents of Salem). From here its easy to have citizens of Mantle rejected because they have connections to a criminal past or political dissent or being immigrants from another part of Remnant or being a faunus etc.
2) Do not have him allow Watts to hack Penny unsupervised, Watt's is a personal and direct enemy, and asset or not, Ironwood would have to be a literal retard to not have some sort of cybersecurity monitoring all computer access of Watts.
3) The nuke; rather than slowly and stupidly transporting it over the ground, I think it would be much more logical for Ironwood to have a suicide run on a bullhead flying straight into Monstro. They could still have the need for the bomb be cancelled but at the very least it would demonstrate the idea of Ironwood growing heartless and truly sacrificing things for the purpose of defeating Salem as well as the motif of 'No victory in strength' that has been central to the story.
4) Ironwood abandoning the Amity plan makes no sense either. He's precisely the type to double down on something, especially something as resource heavy and important as that. Rather than abandon the plan, it's more likely that a floating asset like Amity would be something he would want to use for something else, make it a centralized battle-station or something, or use it to hold people evacuated from Mantle for filtration or something.
5) If they nuke Mantle then it should have been because Grimm had surrounded and overrun almost all of it and the unevacuated people were trapped in the middle. The threat of the Grimm reaching Atlas through Mantle would make abandoning it pragmatic and nuking it a good way to put a dent in the enemy forces from a rational point of view.

TL;DR: Rampant pragmatism has people become treated as chess pieces. Having Ironwood become a cold pragmatist in the face of Salem's threat and therefore be at odds with Team RWBYJNRO would make sense because they (or rather Ruby and Jaune) are idealists who try to save everyone. Team RWBY isn't supposed to win this either in part because the idealism of "save everyone" is impossible (a lesson we get in Volume 9, how THAT was written is a separate discussion). Anyway there; 5 ways to significantly improve Ironwood as an antagonist in V7/8 without significantly changing other aspects of the plot. His actions have to be rational to his own purpose, that's it.

>>29891
>Do you know what imperialism even is?
It is heavily implied Atlas and Vale both produce 21st century level tech (even though with the existence of dust you, could make the case they're technically at a lower stage of industrial development, like if steampunk was real). Despite most likely being a backwards peasant economy, Mistral still imports most of these products. I would honestly be surprised if there weren't imperial relations of productions. Also they have a literal Atlesian settler colony.

>Every successful feudal lord constantly expands and accumulates more and more resources and power

Yet ultimately the requirements for a landlord to "profit" from his manor were a lot looser than those of a modern family farm. Given Remnant, this is especially true for the amount of labor a capitalist farm or plantation would have to hire (recall the capitalist bias to minimize capital expenditure). I'm asserting they wouldn't strictly need to profit, only "break even", before the land has been sufficiently developed.
>Cockshott also isn't talking about societies or groups that 'return'
Except he is explaining why it made for sense for former Roman territories to abolish their slave economy and limited commodity production in favour of manorialism. Historical necessity doesn't care for urban life or individual living standards. It conforms to the material conditions and how the currrent means of production may be most effectively employed.
>just warlordism
You're also ignoring the examples of semi-feudalism under despotic states. Both the Byzantine Empire and the later Ottoman Empire followed a despotic style of government, where the a significant part of the diet and wars were financed from the personal wealth of its rulers. At various points this necessitated the distribution of land as payment for their armies, and while Rome had had similar systems in place, they remained tied to the slave economy at the time. This is what i mean with material conditions: These states were advanced enough for manorialism to be productive, yet underdeveloped enough for family farms or commercial plantations to not be viable. This IS the case in Mistral; family farms get trounced by Grimm.

>industrial and technological progress ceased and regressed and

Not on a greater scale. What you see as the advancements of Rome having been "lost" never existed outside the scarce few Roman cities and was entirely dependent on the surplus from slave economy. The feudal economy established a comparatively lower level of wealth throughout ALL of Europe, being largely responsible for the fact it's an area with such a dense population today.
>even art regressed in a technical aspect
Romanistic churches were raised in places, that would have been bumfuck nowhere during the entire life of the Western Roman empire. Masonry and decorative painting continued to be practiced, mosaics continued to be created in wealthy Mediterranean towns. Did you expect them to build fucking Trajan's column in every town?
>This could not be and was not handled by artisan craftsmen, this was done through an organized system where different roles were handled by different sets of people, stone-masons, crane operators, architects and laborers who did the dirty work.
All throughout history large public works, like the Pyramids, required a similar distribution of labor. I don't call them artisinal because they weren't engaged in a proto-manufactural type of work, i call them that because the skilled masons working on those projects were not wage laborers. They would be more accurately be described as contractors, in fact mason's marks have been found in Egypt and ancient Rome (see https://www.academia.edu/44109153/Stonemasons_and_their_Marks_in_Roman_Syria_Palaestina_and_Arabia).

>Having Ironwood become a cold pragmatist in the face of Salem's threat and therefore be at odds with Team RWBYJNRO

Yeah, good fanfiction, but no one in CRWBY has ever had a clue about realpolitik.

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>>29893
>Despite most likely being a backwards peasant economy, Mistral still imports most of these products.
>It is heavily implied Atlas and Vale both produce 21st century level tech
I think it's implied that ALL the kingdoms produce their own tech, which is why Valean, Mistrali and Atlesian bullheads differ significantly in design. Atlas is the highest in technological advancement and production, but is also the most limited in easily available resources.
I don't think we see anything about Mistral or any of the other countries being peasant economies, it's fairly obviously implied that they're all varying levels of capitalist market economies.
>they have a literal Atlesian settler colony.
Sakai is glowie-shit, get his brainworms out of your head. This is called a military outpost not a colony.
>ultimately the requirements for a landlord to "profit" from his manor were a lot looser than those of a modern family farm
In the past yes, because loose requirements were a benefit and because social progress hadn't reached that level yet.

>they wouldn't strictly need to profit, only "break even", before the land has been sufficiently developed.

No, they wouldn't. Any farmer or rancher can tell you that you don't go for 'break even' in farming for a multitude of reasons; reserves in case of hard times, surplus to sell or use out of necessity to acquire something, basic human wants that turn life from 'surviving' into 'living'. Your essay that you posted literally talks about this.
>Historical necessity doesn't care for urban life or individual living standards.
Key word here, HISTORICAL NECESSITY. Societies regressed because of Rome's social collapse and were forced to reorganize into the feudal system we get in the Medieval Age. This wasn't a conscious choice and is not the same as a modern capitalist society reverting to feudalism; see post-apocalyptic dystopias.
>ignoring the examples of semi-feudalism under despotic states.
<Byzantium
It was closer to capitalist or a bureacracy than feudalism, modernizing the Roman structure.
>Ottomans
The Ottoman Empire formed at the end of the Middle Ages and is in no way comparable; they didn't innovate jack shit, they took it from older islamic states and non-islamic ones. The Ottomans essentially inherited infrastructure from preceding societies. Ottomans and early Byzantines also had slave-dependent economies, they were simply reduced in scale compared to Rome because it stopped being convenient as material conditions progressed.
>family farms get trounced by Grimm.
We see just several villages functioning (such as Oscar's farm); the problem is that IRL history never had to deal with millions of soulless monsters seeking humanities destruction and nothing else. This significantly changes societal development and needs because the material conditions are different. This also doesn't account for Dust, Aura and Semblances, which allow individuals to essentially be super-soldiers. This shifts the balance of power.
Finally the bandit-feudalism you spoke of with Raven is not the same as Byzantium or any other state arising from/after the decay of Rome. Those weren't a random conglomeration of random criminals, in the case of the Germanic peoples they were actual tribes with histories and their own cultures that led into their feudal development, the Byzantines and Ottomans inherited infrastructure and culture from their predecessors.
Mistrali bandits would literally just be a crime syndicate and run like a crime syndicate.
>Not on a greater scale.
You're nitpicking and ignoring my point. I already stated that Roman mass industry wasn't huge, but it existed and was significantly advanced for its time. The processing of making concrete for example would be lost for centuries and the Roman specific method was only recently rediscovered. Iron ore mining and processing at its peak was unsurpassed until the Industrial Revolution, reaching thousands of tons.
>never existed outside the scarce few Roman cities
You are incorrect. We know of 200+ acqueducts constructed by Romans across the Mediterranean in Italy, Spain, France, The Middle East, North Africa and so on this isn't including possible ones that were destroyed and lost to time as has happened many times. These advancements were unknown and forgotten.
>entirely dependent on the surplus from slave economy.
Most of this required skilled labour, a slave economy on its own could never replicate that. This only started being restored in the late Medieval Age when metal-working reached a higher level and simultaneous technological advancement occurred.
>being largely responsible for the fact it's an area with such a dense population today.
<Small area with long-time populations living in an area will become densely populated over millenia
No shit. Again, there are no Grimm IRL to fuck with that.
>Masonry and decorative painting continued to be practiced, mosaics continued to be created in wealthy Mediterranean towns.
You misunderstand outside of Byzantium or areas with socio-economical and cultural development independent of Rome (Middle East), mosaics and other art was NEVER on the same technical level as it was during Rome's time UNTIL the Renaissance. That church you posted? I didn't know which one it was until I searched the image but just from looking at it I could tell you it was a renaissance era construction, because of the technical level of the art. This was not the case before that because the majority of churches were constructed at length by ordinary laymen and the art inside was usually done by them too using temperamental and difficult mediums of Tempura applied to wood, metal and vellum
This doesn't make it not art, because true art is eternally beautiful regardless of technical skill, but from a technique aspect is a regression.
Human anatomy and poses were awkward; too many ribs, a few too many fingers, crossed eyes, too long bodies, perspective relative to the background made them giants, an animal that could be a donkey looks little different from a depiction of a dog in another scene. The list goes on. It's not just a stylization, it's a lack of skill because the degradation of the Roman Empire lead to a lack of support for art.
Compare the Early 15th century German statue of The Virgin and Child
https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/466144
to Augustus Prima Porta (1 AD)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustus_of_Prima_Porta?useskin=vector
The latter is from a technical aspect a superior work, and would only be replicated in the mid 15th century by the likes of Michelangelo. The technically imperfect The Tribute Money (1425) by Masaccio was a massive leap forward in terms of technique and finally reached parity with paintings of Ancient Rome like The Punishment of Ixion.
>Did you expect them to build fucking Trajan's column in every town?
No, but there's a distinct LACK of statues, murals, mosaics, frescos and other art of the same technical skill level as the Romans had, in Early/Middle Medieval art. I still have my books and walked through dozens of museums over and over studying this for my own interest. The contrast is distinct and visible.
Again, this isn't to say that the Medieval works of art are inferior AS ART. Art remains Art. I only speak of it from a technique aspect.
>large public works, like the Pyramids, required a similar distribution of labor.
>They would be more accurately be described as contractors, in fact mason's marks have been found in Egypt and ancient Rome
I am aware of those marks, I mentioned stone masons specifically with those marks in mind. Egypt is underestimated in this regard in the same way as you understate Rome. These masons were not just independent artisans, they were part of an organized class of skilled labor not only paid for commissioned works but also for mass production of more minor needs like simple stone-work for houses as well as for such grand projects. As I stated, it's obviously much more limited compared to modern day definitions of industrial society, but for the time it was incredible advancement and organization, without which Rome could never have even attempted to build such complex structures. The grand stone castles of the Medieval age didn't rise up overnight, their progress took centuries and construction took decades to replicate the scale and quality of work that Romans built in less time (comparably). The idea that skills cannot be lost and progress regress is historical fact, the same can be said of many North African kingdoms that went from powerhouses in their locale to essentially shadows of themselves over the centuries.

>good fanfiction

That's the issue, it's what the intent WAS.
>no one in CRWBY has ever had a clue about realpolitik.
Maybe, maybe not, either way in V7/8 they dropped the ball in execution, but functionally it could be written where Ironwood as antagonist is not damaged by Salem's story presence.

>>29894
>Any farmer or rancher can tell you that you don't go for 'break even' in farming for a multitude of reasons
I was speaking in terms of monetary profit, as a reason for why feudalism offers stronger incentives than capitalism for developing the land. If you would consult the third book of Capital (i think), profit is something that explicitly needs to be realized. Land in itself and by extension manors under feudalism don't yield profit, they yield rent in the form of natural produce. This output is subject to the fluctuations and "crises" of the natural world, but by a far FAR lesser extent than the price of commodities in a capitalist economy. While market dynamics remain within feudalism, they need not apply to its productive base.
>Societies regressed because of Rome's social collapse.
Rome's social collapse followed from the slow-motion collapse of its political economy. The reason i kept coming back to the slave economy wasn't a moral objection, it was to stress the inevitable trajectory towards collapse, that had been set up by it. The Roman slave economy produced a societal surplus, affording free Romans to pursue labor previously unfeasible within their predominantly agrarian productive base. When the supply of cheap slaves dried up, so did this surplus, and it became progressively harder and ultimately impossible to sustain Roman infrastructure, industry and armies. Feudalist economy not only picked up the pieces after this century-long adventure, it also became the productive motor (mill?), developing previously inarable land and making literal leaps in the development of new farming techniques, that made something like the Renaissance possible in the first place.

>Finally the bandit-feudalism you spoke of with Raven is not the same as Byzantium or any other state arising from/after the decay of Rome.

You think they could not lay hold of the ready-made political machinery of the capital and divide up their fiefdoms from there?
>You are incorrect. We know of 200+ acqueducts constructed by Romans across the Mediterranean in Italy, Spain, France, The Middle East, North Africa
My point is the Roman population was a lot more clustered around urban centers. The Carolingian Empire is estimated to have had a slightly lower population density, presumably with a much smaller urban population. Again i stress the importance of the stability this brought: Having a rural population capable of feeding itself is preferable to an urban population, when the same cannot be said in the long-term; that was the impetus behind the decline of many Roman cities.
>You misunderstand outside of Byzantium or areas with socio-economical and cultural development independent of Rome (Middle East), mosaics and other art was NEVER on the same technical level as it was during Rome's time UNTIL the Renaissance.
Patently untrue, as the former Roman core stayed in contact with Byzantium all up until its fall. They sent a princess to Theodoric, briefly made the region a vassal state and were diplomatically engaged with everyone from the Lombards to the Franks and most important of all: the papacy. All throughout this time Italy was under a large amount of Byzantian cultural influence, even receiving their architects as guests at multiple points.

>I could tell you it was a renaissance era construction

Lmao. Did you just stop reading, after you found a mention of the Ottonian "Renaissance"? Its construction took place around 961 and 1130. The existence of the term Carolingian Renaissance, which oversaw the first building phase of the Aachen cathedral in 798, should correct your warped view of early medieval architecture. Not to mention Romanesque, hall churches, Gothic architecture, icon painting, Mudejar, Pietas and a lot of other lifelike, often wooden statues all emerged before any Renaissance movements. Most Roman villas, arcades, temples and basilicas are moot in comparison.
>there's a distinct LACK of statues, murals, mosaics, frescos
You ever wonder why most baltic churches are constructed either from wood or red brick? Other building materials are relatively scarce to come by in that region. The same can be said in regards to marble for LITERALLY ANYWHERE EXCEPT ITALY (and some parts of spain). Northern European medieval churches didn't incorporate Roman-era marble pillars because "muh stagnation", but because transporting the material would have be the bottleneck either way. The same for mosaics except from a cultural standpoint: Ravenna never stopped producing tesserae.

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>>29895
>I was speaking in terms of monetary profit
Same thing at the end of the day money or grain 'breaking even' is never the goal, because that can only be viable in a ideal closed system without external factors from stuff like wheat rust other harvest damage, to the need to live through winter and the ability to buy things that you cannot make or grow.
>Land in itself and by extension manors under feudalism don't yield profit, they yield rent in the form of natural produce.
Obviously, but you make profit by gaining enough money or natural produce to not only break even but exceed the investiture placed into a property. That's why even medieval kingdoms had taxes.
>While market dynamics remain within feudalism, they need not apply to its productive base.
Again this requires people to be working together on an equal level in a community, not peasants serving lords.
>Rome's social collapse followed from the slow-motion collapse of its political economy.
That is why I referred to it as socio-economics.
>stress the inevitable trajectory towards collapse, that had been set up by it
Of course it was inevitable, but that doesn't mean societies didn't regress from a dialectical-materialism standpoint.
>affording free Romans to pursue labor previously unfeasible within their predominantly agrarian productive base.
And Feudalism made it that even fewer could afford to pursue non-base labour that allowed for advancement or maintenance or advancement of culture.
>developing previously inarable land and making literal leaps in the development of new farming techniques
It didn't so much as leap with farming techniques so much as broaden in scale utilizing the untapped resources of the North. True agricultural revolution that helped fund the renaissance only came about in the Late Middle Ages as societies regained cultural advancement.
>think they could not lay hold of the ready-made political machinery of the capital and divide up their fiefdoms from there?
That's not what I meant, what I mean is that Byzantium was a natural progression from an existing imperial infrastructure, the same applying to the Ottomans. They did not go from Capitalism and return to Feudalism, which is what you're (in essence) proposing.
>Roman population was a lot more clustered around urban centers.
That's true of almost all societies. Medieval ones in Northern Europe only had less urban centralization because of much lower social development by comparison. The majority of populations surrounded larger towns and fortifications.
>Having a rural population capable of feeding itself is preferable to an urban population
Obviously, but a rural population was and is more vulnerable to banditism and for Remnant; The Grimm.
>the former Roman core stayed in contact with Byzantium all up until its fall
Perhaps, but being "in contact" is not the same as
>Its construction took place around 961 and 1130.
I was speaking of the layout and the mural itself. Obviously the actual cathedral was laid down earlier, you're not that stupid, but the style of the murals from the coloration to the formatting is clearly something based in the Renaissance era and was the final touch of the 12-13th century construction that added the Western Apse to begin with.
>your warped view of early medieval architecture
My 'warped view' is based on actually having walked these. Many of the examples of Carolingian Renaissance construction are restored and modified over the centuries. Gothic architecture is specifically from the beginning of the renaissance era (starting from the 12th century) so your point is moot. Mudejar is a fucking idiotic reference because A) it originated from Islamic culture and architecture combining with the remnants of Roman and Grecian styles. B) It developed in the LATE Medieval Age-beginning of the Renaissance. Again Proving my point. Icon Painting again proves my point because for centuries icons were very much full of technical flaws for a myriad of reasons. I have handled and seen over a hundred icons including Grecian/Byzantine and Slavic ones from all sorts of time periods, and for many centuries they did not have the best technical appearance; distortions of perspective, crooked faces and eyes etc. Part of this came from Medieval Christian ideology with God as the most important thing, the human body was profane and sinful, nature unimportant, only god and his symbols were important, and therefore things like artistic study of anatomy and perspective were less important. Islam took it to an extreme, where almost any depiction of people was all but banned (false idols and so on), leaving only intricate geometric patterns, hence why there is comparably little portraiture or human depiction from Islamic states of the era.
>lifelike, often wooden statues all emerged before any Renaissance movements
Haha no. If you actually view these statues many are not life-like. They're beautiful but there are anatomical flaws that are caused by the fact that their sculptors were self-taught. I literally provided an example of each.
>ever wonder why most baltic churches are constructed either from wood or red brick?
I'm well aware of the reasons, given my country of origin.
>Northern European medieval churches didn't incorporate Roman-era marble pillars
I wasn't talking about fucking marble pillars, I never even mentioned them. Frescos, Murals, Mosaics and Statues are not endemic to Roman and Byzantine art. Your own fucking example image is a demonstration of that.
>Ravenna never stopped producing tesserae.
No, however again, in most medieval areas not Byzantine or influenced by the Middle East, the scale and TECHNICAL SKILL of these works paled in comparison to the past for several centuries until feudal states materially developed to support more skilled artistry.

>>29896
>That's why even medieval kingdoms had taxes.
We're talking about early-medieval feudalism, where any monetary systems had collapsed, and the economic and social stability afforded by feudalism actually mattered.
>Of course it was inevitable, but that doesn't mean societies didn't regress from a dialectical-materialism standpoint.
Despite initially lower surpluses (due to aforementioned external factors), feudalism objectively advanced the relations of production. It emerged precisely because it most effectively utilized societal resources at the time of its inception. In fact any lasting societal progress lags behind the development of the agricultural base; advancing without such a firm foundation would be blatant adventurism.
>It didn't so much as leap with farming techniques
Medieval ploughs and crop rotation especially were objectively leaps. The consensus is, despite the primacy of agriculture, some hunter-gatherer activity continued being necesssary until their advent.
>Medieval ones in Northern Europe only had less urban centralization because of much lower social development by comparison.
The centres were far larger in number, therefore they had more capacity in growth when the pace of the productive forces picked up again. They were smallpoxing in civ terms.
>the formatting is clearly something based in the Renaissance era and was the final touch of the 12-13th century construction
I don't get why you're so insistent of dating back the Renaissance far before any time i've seen it outlined before. Far from social fetters, the fidelity of high-medieval art in comparison of that from the early medieval period, can be directly traced back to the emergence of large-scale, high-volume trade and the wealth concentrated in the many urban centres as a result. Frescos were also largely a fad north of the Alps and i don't know of any mosaics outside of Orthodox churches either.

>Byzantium was a natural progression from an existing imperial infrastructure

We know canonically most parts of Remnant are already controlled or heavily greased by crime syndicates. Presumably they would extract profit from protection rackets, hijaking trade and appropriating reserves, which should result in something of a death spiral. Giving undeveloped land as property as a fief to these people, would on the one hand formalize already existing relations, actually engage them in the labor of protection and also provide an incentive not to lay the whole kingdom to waste. As-is Mistral is at an impasse.
>Obviously, but a rural population was and is more vulnerable to banditism and for Remnant; The Grimm.
You said it yourself: The people of Remnant have Dust, Aura and Semblances, all things that are no use to an untrained peasant.

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>>29897
>We're talking about early-medieval feudalism, where any monetary systems had collapsed, and the economic and social stability afforded by feudalism actually mattered.
Taxes are not necessarily paid in money, in fact most peasants could never afford to pay it with money in the Medieval age outright. It was paid to the Church and State with agricultural and livestock produce. In essence it was a racket like with the Mafia… or modern capitalist states today; you live on our land so you pay for your 'protection' and for residing here or you get hurt. Why do you think Robin Hood was created and became a popular folk character? Honestly with how hard you argue for feudalism in this context, you sound like an ancap.
>any lasting societal progress lags behind the development of the agricultural base; advancing without such a firm foundation would be blatant adventurism.
Rome didn't advance without firm foundation, if it did then it wouldn't have lasted for the greater part of a millenia.
>crop rotation
FFS that's not an early medieval thing, that happened in Rome too since at least ~200BC The Medieval system simply solidified the 3 field system that late-Rome did. The 4 field system was part of the Agricultural Revolution, during the Enlightenment and after The Renaissance.
>plough
Ploughs have been around since mankind first began to work the earth in earnest. Medieval plows were developments of existing Roman plows. These are not significant by any leap of the imagination.
>some hunter-gatherer activity continued being necessary until their advent.
HAHAHA Hunter-gatherer activity continued throughout the early and middle Medieval Age, but slowly stopped being relevant later. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJnIZiH5fyM
>why you're so insistent of dating back the Renaissance far before any time i've seen it outlined before.
I'm not dating it back further. The Renaissance is widely acknowledged to have begun officially in 1350 as defined by Italian historians during the 15th century, however the ProtoRenaissance began earlier than that, as early as 1200 in places like Tuscany. This was called (in Italy) the Duecento as merchant economies grew and scholarship began to grow past just monastic practices and scribes; with nobility beginning to be educated as well, picking up late what rulers like Charlemagne pushed for. People like Dante Alighieri, Giotto and Giovanni Villani began their work then.
>Far from social fetters
Do you know why the Renaissance is considered different socially aside from the economics? The focus on humanism and anthropocentrism that was a marked difference from before, while depictions of christian symbols and stories continued to feature prominently, the way they were depicted changed and many other things of non-religious character were painted. Trade and other things just facilitated the allowance for such social (re)development.
>Frescos were also largely a fad north of the Alps
It's an example, I could spend all day listing the different types of old artistry used to decorate Medieval churches. That's not the point.
>We know canonically most parts of Remnant are already controlled or heavily greased by crime syndicates.
Crime syndicates operating underground with rackets is not the same as outright feudalism. That's literal cartel shit and it's outright demonstrated that these criminal elements are crushed if they get too big for their britches; The Crown, the plot of Arrowfell, hell Lionheart became famous because he destroyed Mistrali criminal syndicates so badly that they're a shadow of their former selves. In Vale the criminal syndicate is (was) very limited too.
>actually engage them in the labor of protection and also provide an incentive not to lay the whole kingdom to waste.
That's basically holding society hostage and being a parasitic middle-man. Fuck that. Also "protection" is never really protection from crime syndicates. It consists of driving off rival criminal syndicates and punished unaffiliated criminals for robbing their 'property'. Against Grimm that's worthless.
>The people of Remnant have Dust, Aura and Semblances, all things that are no use to an untrained peasant.
What do you mean no use? Dust is an energy resource, aura protects the body, enhances strength and endurance, semblances allow access to unique abilities, that's certainly useful to even a farmer. It's also not enough without training to use against a serious Grimm attack. Oscar states that he's killed small Grimm on his aunt's farm, but clearly has no idea how to handle something like a Beowolf. This isn't an animal, it's essentially a demon that are tough to kill for a non-huntsman.


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