/edu/ - Education

I am benefitting right now but I didnt when I went to a four year in a success sense. I did overall benefit im glad I went, up until the last year though I had a partial scholarship and the rest was covered by federal subsidized loans with maybe just 3 being unsubsidized. I owe 30k in debt and only because it took me 5 years instead of 4 to get my degree, the monthly payments are totally doable for me and in fact I can usually overpay. This isnt to brag about my situation but just some context because someone who owes like 60k or even the amount i owe but cant pay it im sure would have a very different valid opinion.

I went to school for design and im at a community college right now because I felt like my brain was stagnating and its only like 300$ a semester and I feel like im getting a 10x better education than I did at my 4 year. Our professor (i take like the same one for every class) is always providing us the connects for various markets and same for the more advanced students. Some people literally just use the class as a studio basically and are off doing their own thing during lectures, and critiques of their work are practically free lessons instead of critiques. In some sense im like why did I go to a four year instead of just doing this, but to be honest had I done this out of highshool I also would not have appreciated it like I do now. Im sure there was the same or even better extracurricular opportunities at my four year I just wasnt paying attention to them. I could maybe say I wish i had a job before attending college to light the fire under my ass about my prospects when not in education, but had I done that I likely would have just gotten more depressed than I was out of highschool. My 4 year is what led me to make some of my first friends in years and also attend counseling, so its hard to disparage it. But if I wasnt in my situation I think a job and then community college would have been the move. Overall I absolutely think higher education is worth it, its really the only thing I get any joy in at this point besides the people I meet also in higher education. I probably would not feel jealous of your financebro friend regardless of how much more he mad cause if im being very real I can tell when someone skimped the education and I dont get along very well with them. Call me elitist but thats how it is, I have enough money to keep going to school and thats all I need really I dont have any point of relation to someone who was a dropout success. I dont care that they diy'd it and are more successful they are lacking way too much critical thinking and general fundamental knowledge often for me to get along with them or agree with them oh most things. Not my sort of person, they could end up being the richest person in the world id still find them lacking. And I cant say that for just everyone who doesnt pursue any post hs education, I can really only specifically say it for people who have the means to now and dont and see it as some big scam. Most others are still very curious and want to learn and are more just dissapointed they cant continue some kind of schooling.

Still going through it, but yeah verious things I've learned have been useful. Potentially could've learned the same things for free online, but at least I have a general idea where to look for stuff. That's potential internet infrastructure to build.

yeah, I learned to code and make money

Higher academia only works if you're going for engineering or doctoring.
Everything else is a gamble.
The problem is college is oversold as the only route to adulthood, that it's a quick guarantee way of escaping pauperhood.

>>23146
You saying "college dropouts" "lack critical thinking"?
You know how many college graduates also lack this "critical thinking" you speak of?
Also, it seems to me college is a savior for you due to giving you a social life.
What are you going to do when college is over with?
Especially since youre going into design.
How many available spots are there for design school graduates?

Originally went to a good 4 year for computer science on a scholarship, dropped out because I learned that after a certain point I loathe coding and math too much, currently going to community college to learn IT networking stuff. I'll honestly say that the curriculum for it here is pretty soul sucking and too digital (ironically), so I'm definitely on the front lines of higher ed being sanded down into dreck except for the bomb manufacturing and oil sucker degrees. On the bright side it has already given me a pretty chill IT internship at a company so that was nice.

>>23155
Also, in an ideal world I would study history, but at that same time I just wish there was a lot more in the way of high quality history courses maintained by community organizations, unions, Actually Existing Communist Parties etc. like the Jefferson School.

Academia is a gamble. You invest in studying for a job that may or may not be available, and since you haven't actually been exposed to the field of work you don't even know if you'll like it. This is why trades are superior and the university system should be replaced by apprenticeship except for the pure sciences and humanities

>>23157
We used to have apprenticeships but schools took them away because libs thought it was taking away bourgeois "opportunities" for ethnic kids.

Alot of people normalise wasting away your twenties with educational limbo.
Society focuses too much on "follow your dreams/passion".

And what does that get you?
Five or six figure debt and wasted youth.

We need to go back to gatekeeping college for the best and brightest

>>23160
what would an unwasted youth look like to you? as someone who had a job and then attended college, i can pretty safely say that college was the lesser waste of the two. unless you can make it as a business owner being a 20something without a college degree basically assures you a spot at mcdonalds

>>23614
>Society thinks work is a punishment
It literally is you repressed anhedonic freak, thats what the fucking word means, it is a thing you have to do despite not wanting to.

>>23145
I can tell you how NOT pursuing academics fucked me. Fell for the businessbro meme and thought i could start some business to make cash without being a wagie. Nothing ever worked out and now Im the only retard going back to school late for a degree while other bros have 10+ years of savings from their tech jobs.

>>23615
Isn't the repressed, anhedonic position one in which you force yourself to submit to crushing obligations despite not wanting anything to do with them?

I fell for the negative hype of "i went to college now I flip burgers but with $100k in debt" thing and just decided to work whatever no-skill jobs I could find. I learned quickly this is only for people who are okay with having their body destroyed, having no social life, and ending up lonely and disabled by 50. I feel dumb, but also I realize that I just didn't have the resources to have been able to do higher education well. I was encouraged to go to whatever school, just go and decide what I wanted to study after doing my first year, etc. I had no information about the job market or what kind of work I was suited for or liked doing. I really didn't want to do any work, and since I hadn't had much experience I couldn't tell what I was more okay with.

I wish the narrative wasn't university vs no education vs trade school. Trades aren't for everyone but it's another "just do this and all your problems go away" narrative. Lots of people don't make it through apprenticeships because the guy doing it is an asshole. And you still have to deal with making low money for a while, just like any degree. And the university framing makes community college and small state colleges functionally equal to prestigious private universities, where the latter are encouraged because they're just "better". The reality is, and narrative should be:
>no-skill work destroys the body and you'll have to work so much to pay all your bills that you won't have a life (unless you are very lucky)
<certifications exist, and skilled/gatekept non-degreed work exists! Get at least a certification, and always pursue new skills and job hop or leverage your job within a large company to gain access to new positions that will gain you more (hard) skills. Your job is your education now.
>if you don't have any cert or unique hard skills to gatekeep your labor position some, you're competing with any immigrants, you're competing with people on meth and coke, you're competing with suicidal 40 year old no-lifers who have perfected their 'craft', you're competing with nepo babies who treat a job like a fun little pastime, etc.
<connections really matter more than anything and college gives connections. So does being rich and lucky. So many people get good positions only because they know someone. If you know no one, be prepared to not ever have the "luck" to get into a decent position. It's not really random
>all degrees are the same, where you get it doesn't matter, all that changes is how many connections you gain (e.g. online schooling won't get you any), so never even think about private schools or honestly anything that seems too large or fun. Stay with your parents if you can or the lowest cost of living area.
<trade school is for (masc) men. If you aren't a man, this isn't for you really. You can still do it but your existence will be unnecessarily hard.
>don't fall for the jobs for women. This basically just means any care work. You will be paid minimum wage to be an on demand private chef, maid, masseuse, grocery shopper, ass wiper, therapist, friend, and dick holder. It's not worth it. Prefer jobs that are more neutrally coded, they pay more for the work
<don't fall for the hype of the last bubble, consult government databases only for trends in job openings to understand the current market and predict future trends.
>job hop, attempt to get a union job, gov job, infrastructure job, etc. because you will have relative security
<after those, jobs where you basically scam rich people in some way are goated. This is a growing sector. No longer should parents tell their kids "art doesn't pay".
>your body is your ability to work. If you let a company whittle down your health, they are destroying your future earnings. Always prioritize work that maintains your health. This is more important than current pay (unless you're in massive credit card debt or something)
<always look for jobs while you have a job. You can negotiate your wage from a stronger position and can be unafraid of being passed over if you make too high of an ask

>>23145
it's called proletarianization
disregard all the textwalls

>>23760
because the people generating those narratives are the employers, universities and trade schools themselves. if you ask the guy trying to sell you a college degree what you should do, he is obviously going to tell you that you should buy their product. your confusion is merely the result of "market education". further, if you are really a marxist most work will feel like shit to you because you understand the concept of exploitation and surplus value, and there is reconciliation possible, you have to live with it

>>23762
Yeah I get that part, I'm just frustrated because I wasn't ever talking to college reps or whoever, it's just the narrative all-around from all family, teachers and shit, all adults in my life at that time. I don't blame them for not deconstructing the marketing propaganda, it's just unoptimal and frustrating I guess. But I'm not confused anymore, stuff started getting obvious early on, just I wish I hadn't wasted time and had been given the resources (like on the actual market, on how to succeed in jobs, on how to gain hard skills, the full gamut of types of jobs, education, and opportunities, etc.) I needed, rather than being told "leave at 18, do college or find a job, whatever, anything works".

Also I think work is just shitty for the normal reasons… it hurts your body, you have to deal with smug bosses and social games, psychopath coworkers who entertain themselves with some harassing mini-game rather than just doing the work, the traffic and commute, weird scheduling, low pay, etc. I actually don't care about exploitation. Workers are paid more or less an average value that corresponds to the market value of their labor. Surplus value is used to expand or renovate means of production. This is whatever. I'm not even salty at other people making more money for less work, I accept it as the way of things for now. I'm mostly upset with people's individualistic and petite-bourg attitudes, from co-workers and bosses. Anyways I'm doing fine now, thanks for the critique

>>23774
In capitalism, "essential to society" doesn't really matter as far as paying bills. But I agree, there's some extra enjoyment and nobility in doing really useful work, especially where you see the tangible results. I used to do some stuff like that (with my grandpa, not for wage) and it was genuinely so formative. Manual labor can be so enjoyable even if it sucks, because you get to make or repair something and see the fruits, and you do it while working side by side with other people who share the task… something about all sweating and working together is just nice. I wish more people had that kind of experience (this is why i support labor camps :^))

But my main gripe with the tradie narrative is that, 1) it's not so perfect (tbh everyone shud expect this, but it's really overhyped ime), 2) there are other avenues of cheap education. You don't need a trade school or apprenticeship. And often you don't really make money until you start your own business. It's pushing petite-bourg stuff to disaffected young men. It's not bad, but it's overblown, probably for ideological reasons. AFAIK right now women are going into college at a higher rate, and I think this is part of it. It's either trades, college, or suffer. Trades are full of macho dudes and small businesses without HR, it's not super enticing for women. So the choice is more limited.

I'm not against trades, just wish education on all options existed. There's so much economy that people don't even think about or see, and you know the thing companies do where they give some normal job a crazy name, so it can be hard to find out what economy is even going on, and then each sector has its own unique certs, licenses, and so on and varying types of schooling. So much "find a program that complies with the Codes XXXX" and then no program states anything… feels like a way to get scammed so easily. Anyways I'm just complaining now. Maybe this is something that socialists could actually be super helpful with, since the prevailing sentiment is so sour on work, to the extent that there's very little consideration of educating about it systematically - by schools, families, business groups, whatever.

It felt like I was wasting money at a community college. The professors didn't really do anything I was just learning everything from books. They even removed a certificate I was aiming for so they stole money from me in effect.

Would it be at all possible to eventually get a job researching left-wing topics? That's really the main reason I'd want to continue my studies at this point.

>>23775
>Also I think work is just shitty for the normal reasons… it hurts your body, you have to deal with smug bosses and social games, psychopath coworkers who entertain themselves with some harassing mini-game rather than just doing the work, the traffic and commute, weird scheduling, low pay, etc. I actually don't care about exploitation. Workers are paid more or less an average value that corresponds to the market value of their labor. Surplus value is used to expand or renovate means of production. This is whatever. I'm not even salty at other people making more money for less work, I accept it as the way of things for now. I'm mostly upset with people's individualistic and petite-bourg attitudes, from co-workers and bosses. Anyways I'm doing fine now, thanks for the critique

Schooling is the same way but people rationalize it

>>23145
I studied music at uni, and it was fine. The people were nice, and I ended up meeting a friend group for the first time since secondary school that I still meet up with regularly. The lectures themselves were mixed. A lot of good info, but most of it available for free online. Reading books and getting a good instrument teacher would take your skills just as far.

I now work in education. Barely enough money to cover my bills, but I still enjoy parts of it. Some of my course mates are session musicians and the like, but it seems like such a grind for not much more benefit. I don't want to be a businessman, I want to make music, which I now do at home by myself. I do some guitar teaching on the side now and then, so we'll see what happens.

Higher education provides the following:
>A shared place to study and gather
This could easily be an online forum, and it was during covid. If it's a coffee shop, library, or park, it's nearly free.
>Professors, teachers and tutors
This could be a professional who helps you at no cost. I had no trouble finding people skilled in math and computer science to help me when I was pursuing my CS degree.
I recently started learning to draw, and I know a tattoo artist through a friend who is willing to help. There are many forums related to drawing where very experienced people will critique your work at all hours of the day.
>A curriculum
You can find these online, and pirate every book, article or piece of software required, for free.
>Last, but most important, a degree
Can't get this without going to higher education, and it often gatekeeps the entire profession or at least the good jobs. So it's still worth going to college or university in some cases. In addition higher education gatekeeps educational funding. You need the loans to focus on your education. If you try to self teach computer science for instance it probably won't go well, because you're trying to work as you study, probably can't get things done without deadlines, might not be using a coherent curriculum, and probably won't seek out your own mentor. But none of these require higher education except the degree. Even networking can be done outside of higher education. In fact, you're more likely to encounter employed professionals outside of a college campus than in one, but your relationships won't be as deep as you all go start your careers.

Imo none of the above besides the degree itself is worth 40k a year for the average American. Maybe if you're going to an Ivy or very well ranking school. Keep in mind some certifications require a degree as well such as a CPA, PE, so on. If you don't know what to do, you should figure out if the degree has reasonable financial returns. If it does, then go get the degree if you're unsure. If the degree doesn't have good financial returns, I wouldn't do it if you're the average American.

>>23760
You were the prototypical young adult who ends up with 60k+ in debt and doesn't have any employable skills or meaningful network to show for it. This is your own admission. The grass isn't always greener.

>no-skill work destroys the body and you'll have to work so much to pay all your bills that you won't have a life (unless you are very lucky)
A lot of industries that require a college degree can ruin your health and life. It's much more rare I'll admit.
>>if you don't have any cert or unique hard skills to gatekeep your labor position some, you're competing with any immigrants, you're competing with people on meth and coke, you're competing with suicidal 40 year old no-lifers who have perfected their 'craft', you're competing with nepo babies who treat a job like a fun little pastime, etc.
Yeah and as a software developer I'm competing with the entirety of the world because of outsourcing + guys with fake job histories & dubious degrees imported from India under H1B.
>all degrees are the same, where you get it doesn't matter, all that changes is how many connections you gain (e.g. online schooling won't get you any), so never even think about private schools or honestly anything that seems too large or fun. Stay with your parents if you can or the lowest cost of living area.
not true in computer science. some degrees really are toilet paper. I agree that good state schools are sufficient, but some of the bad state schools are terrible and don't get you to an employable level, somehow.
>>don't fall for the jobs for women. This basically just means any care work. You will be paid minimum wage to be an on demand private chef, maid, masseuse, grocery shopper, ass wiper, therapist, friend, and dick holder. It's not worth it. Prefer jobs that are more neutrally coded, they pay more for the work
Yeah this is true
>job hop, attempt to get a union job, gov job, infrastructure job, etc. because you will have relative security
Sort of true but ultimately you want to have the capability to get different jobs rather than hedging your entire life on not getting let go from one job. In general I agree.
>>your body is your ability to work. If you let a company whittle down your health, they are destroying your future earnings. Always prioritize work that maintains your health. This is more important than current pay (unless you're in massive credit card debt or something)
I agree and it's why I will never do a trade, particularly when we as a society don't have a sufficient social safety net for anyone who gets a work place related injury. This is why the trades pay even less than what they pay in actuality. Even then, the per hour earnings of a tradesmen suck for quite a few years. The other problem with the trades is that having completed an apprenticeship in {X} is not as transferable as a bachelors degree in {Y}. Many jobs just require the bachelors. Very few jobs require some sort of apprenticeship. It's why I think tech apprenticeships are a horrible idea. If you end up not becoming a developer, that credential is worthless. Further, employers are not going to teach you the skills you need to job hop or keep up with the industry for decades like a degree SHOULD by covering the math, theory, etc. of computer science itself. Many CS degrees don't do that THOUGH. I've met people who were straight up failed by their degrees. I didn't even complete my CS degree until after I became a dev so I think I'm qualified to make this claim.

>>23775
>often you don't really make money until you start your own business. It's pushing petite-bourg stuff to disaffected young men.
start an HVAC cooperative, fat