/edu/ - Education

Hecking bumping for an actual interesting thread for once

It was capitalism. It was always capitalism. Even the Soviet Union was state capitalism. I’m sorry but it’s capitalism all the way down there is no escape.

>>24658
No, capitalism is a recent thing.

>>24659
nah uh

>>24656
There's an episode of RevLeft Radio where they discuss the historical Christ and part of the discussion is about what you are asking about, like the challenges and methods of studying the ancient world in the way you are mentioning. You might at least find it interesting if not helpful
https://revolutionaryleftradio.libsyn.com/jesus_

>>24660
Ah uh

My impression of ancient socioeconomic history is that it's difficult to study because the development of algebra and statistics which are considered so essential to understanding an economy today were not fully developed until the enlightenment onwards. Statistics used to be called "political arithmetic" in its infancy and algebra was developed as a series of tools for balancing equations and abstracting arithmetic to general cases before it was applied to economics specifically.

But to your point about going beyond the surface of mere chronological "event log" history: I think the key is finding works which ask and answer the right questions. The right questions are the questions that expose assumptions we didn't realize we were making, bridge seemingly unrelated areas of inquiry, and seek to clarify areas of ambiguity, clear up areas of confusion, or eliminate areas of redundancy. You have to figure out what feels strangely important and follow that.

And with economics you have to look across multiple distant civilizations, ask what their economies shared in common, and figure out what the historical material forces that gave rise to those common practices were. If people from very different standpoints are doing the same thing despite not ever meeting each other, there are historical material forces at work. It's why writing for example was invented multiple times by different groups of people who never met. And what was writing used for the most by the earliest Sumerians? Not poetry or literature, that came later. No. Simple "political arithmetic:" Counting herds, crops, dried goods, meat, inventories of kept at storehouses, temples, markets. of the thousands of cuneiform tablets that have been translated, most of them are economic recordkeeping documents rather than literary works or even letters addressed to particular individuals. So you see even with writing the superstructural element (literature, poetry) emerged after the base element (economic record keeping, accounting, inventories). Even in highly superstructural documents, like triumphal documents exaggerating the deeds of kings, their conquests, and their political consequences, there is always an accounting of the bounty of that conquest. How many slaves, sheep, goats, oxen, swine etc. were gotten by conquest.

If you look across multiple human societies and find the same pattern, such as a technology being invented independent of communication, then you have the basic elements of a historical-material approach, and the basic ingredients for understanding a mode of production. This is the beginning of an analysis of economic history that is not based on simply chronicling events in linear order by date.

>>24663
High I.Q effortpost, very rare now days on LeftyPol

>>24658
>I FUCKIN LUH CAPITALISM
>I am National Socialist, btw
wow

>>24656
read how the world works by cockshott

>>24656
Personally I read Ste Croix's Class Struggle in the Ancient Greek World, Anderson's Passages from Antiquity to Feudalism then Banaji's Theory as History.
However, I wouldn't necessarily recommend exactly this route for a few reasons:While Ste Croix's work does a nice job of balancing events, actors/institutions and economic movements, it does suffer from anachronism at times.
Meanwhile, while Anderson's Passages illustrates part of the "transition" between antiquity and the medieval period, he does suffer from tying modes of exploitation too strictly to modes of production ie failing to see the gradation between free peasant, serf, tenant, slave, wage laborer etc and the different relationships with the state that these different classes had in different places. This contributes to him being unable to properly deal with the empire's eastern half and its relatively high amount of involvement with the economy, even towards its twilight. After talking about the empire in the Balkans he sort of claims that the core of its economy was just the hopelessly outmoded free peasant economy that the Roman latifundia never managed to expand into.
Finally Banaji's Theory as History investigates economies from across the Old World, from Antiquity to Early Modernity. This one was amazing for attacking "stagism" and the vague blob that used to be called "the Asiatic mode of Production" that was used to describe societies where the state played a large role in the economy. However, it does go pretty far afield into the debates about these ideas, so I wouldn't necessarily recommend it for people that are looking to get their feet wet with economic history.
Having said all that, I might point you to Banaji's other work like Exploring the Economy of Late Antiquity which seems to be more about the economy of the time rather than the debates around it. As for the events and actors, I would say that good economic histories that aren't just Farmer's Almanacs will still make sure to make note of the highlights in between detailing grain yields.

Economics as we understand it today wasn’t the same in ancient times. The majority of people worked in agriculture and so that was their economic life and they gave a part of their proceeds as taxes. The ancient state also found ways to get people to work on building shit like buildings or roads even if it was just dirt roads through wages in the form of food beer such as ancient Egypt. Excess laborers could find work from the state as laborers for the state in state owned mines and shit, but usually slaves worked ancient mines. What we know as commerce was indeed very important to the wealth of an ancient state but it was much more concentrated and specific where merchants or even state contracted merchants would send out surpluses in a specific specialized good to other nations who got other goods in return. So like Italy which specialized in olives and Egypt which specialized in barley. Both would have an excess amount of those goods and trade that surplus for goods elsewhere.

>>24656
the ancients didn't have a concept of le economy as modern people do which is a result of abundance of resources. the word didn't even exist till the late middle ages early renaissance and again it had different connotations

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equites#Regal_era_(753%E2%80%93509_BC)
whats crazy is that the roman Equites was originally the class of people rich enough to own a horse that evolved into the proto-bourgeoisie

any thoughts on McCormick's Origins of the European Economy?

>>24671 (me)

Couldn't find the pdf, but seems very good based on this index i found extracted from the book. If anyone knows something about it, where to get it or even if its worth buying or something, im all ears

>>24663
>why writing for example was invented multiple times by different groups of people who never met.
they met them 👽
>Counting herds, crops, dried goods, meat, inventories of kept at storehouses, temples, markets
and of course, the most valuable commodity: human workers!
Babbage's first computer (and the first female computer scientist) were invented for plantation slavery dynamics, just like AI is being used today to discipline and control workers. Some things never change 👽

>>24672
It's on Anna's Archive

ah… there’s a certain anthropological paper that “debunks” the metallist explanation of money’s invention… but I haven’t been able to find it in a long time. It was very good tho

Ancient Egypt had a command & palace economy. Considering how long their empire existed it might be one of the more interesting ones to look into.

>>24656
Sort of related to your point, I've been reading a lot of Ranajit Guha recently, and in his book History at the Limit of World-History, he critiques Hegel for a limited view of history:

Guha critiques the concept of world-history in the lineage of Hegel as being almost exclusively Eurocentric. Yet this is not merely a cultural rebuke, for Guha sees that Hegelian history, a worldview that saw human development motivated by a transcendent world historical ‘spirit’, as one ‘held in thrall by a narrowly defined politics of statism’ (p.5). World-history then took on an elevated quality as something that only people who had both writing and a state were able to participate in (p.10). Thus by ignoring the vast majority of the globe, Hegel’s world-history becomes ‘a short story with epical pretensions’ (p.35).

here you go anon. these might not be exactly what youre looking for in the sense that theyre not focused surveys and have their own broader theses, but ive read all of these and theyre excellent. idk how these versions are because i have the physical copies, but if youre interested in this topic i highly recommend them.

the banaji and wood books in particular are really fucking good

>>24656
Believe it or not, Churchill

mods love sending good threads here to die

Overview of the ancient near east and Marxist scholarship about it. Marc van der Mieroop is probably the best author to start with, https://www.academia.edu/45505259/Whats_Left_of_Marxism_Marxist_historiography_and_the_ancient_Near_East?email_work_card=title

>>24749
Has anyone tried asking AI to write this book so we can finally find out the secrets?

>>24829
From Deepseek, which is the best workhorse for this kind of thing; other than Gemini, probably some chinese models I've never heard of, and grok which is basically deepseek tuned to hanbao人 tastes

Past a certain point I got tired of reformatting it by hand to the local formatting; so you'll have to suffer the hidden phrases where it was bolded originally

The prompt was just
>write the first chapter of this book
With the jpeg of the front cover uploaded

For the science people outside, health, linguistics and electronics looking in wondering how those fields are getting results while your field is spinning its wheels, it's because those fields require systems thinking to really get anywhere so you're constantly taking notes and rethinking and reviewing your prior notes seeing whether you can find something systemic that fix a lot of things at once and make thinking about the whole problem simpler

There's more there which involves historical materialism and the practice of science, but it's a half formed thought other than that you should look up Alan Turing, and also what happened to the first doctor in Europe to suggest that doctors should wash their hands after handling cadavers, especially if they were going to be participating in delivering babies

*within which we'll also include historical mechanical calculating machines, such as you'll see from the classical culture of the Mediterranean, from China and later again in Europe also

AI slop requested below,

Chapter 1: The Ultimate CEOs: Pharaohs and the Foundations of Eternal Enterprise

Sand. Time. Immensity. These are the elements that first strike you when you confront the legacy of the Pharaohs. Not crumbling relics, but enduring testaments to the most successful, long-lived enterprise the world has ever known: Dynastic Egypt. For over three thousand years, they built not just pyramids and temples, but a civilization – a complex, thriving, resilient 'organization' – that weathered invasion, famine, and the relentless passage of millennia. How? What were the core principles, the unshakeable pillars, upon which they erected an empire that makes our modern corporations look like fleeting market stalls?

Forget dusty history lessons. We aren't here to catalogue pottery shards. We are here to mine the bedrock of strategic mastery that flowed from the thrones of Upper and Lower Egypt. The Pharaohs weren't just kings; they were the original Fortune 500 CEOs, managing resources, vision, human capital, and legacy on a scale that still staggers the imagination. Their boardroom was the Two Lands; their quarterly report, carved in granite for eternity. Their secrets hold power, even now.

The Divine Mandate: Vision as Immutable Foundation

Every Pharaoh ascended under the weight of Ma'at – cosmic order, truth, justice, balance. This wasn't abstract philosophy; it was the core mission statement. The Pharaoh 'was' the living embodiment of Ma'at. His primary function? To ensure the Nile flooded predictably, the harvests were bountiful, chaos (*Isfet*) was repelled, and the gods were appeased. This divine mandate provided an unshakeable strategic vision: prosperity and stability through divine alignment.

* Lesson 1: Anchor Your Vision in Something Bigger Than Profit. The Pharaohs didn't chase quarterly earnings; they served an eternal principle (Ma'at). What is your organization's Ma'at? Is it solving a fundamental human problem? Advancing knowledge? Creating unparalleled value? A vision rooted in a deeper purpose provides resilience against market fluctuations and inspires loyalty beyond salary. It becomes the granite foundation upon which all else is built.

The Granite Grip: Authority, Hierarchy, and Clear Lines of Command

Egyptian bureaucracy was legendary. Viziers, Overseers of the Treasury, Nomarchs (provincial governors), Scribes – a meticulously defined hierarchy flowed directly from the Pharaoh. His word was law, divinely ordained. This absolute authority wasn't (just) tyranny; it was operational necessity. Building a pyramid, mobilizing an army, redistributing grain across hundreds of miles – these required unquestioned command and flawless execution.

* Lesson 2: Clarity of Authority is Non-Negotiable. Ambiguity breeds chaos. Pharaoh understood that for complex, large-scale endeavors, decision-making must be clear, and accountability absolute. Define roles, responsibilities, and reporting lines with the precision of a hieroglyphic inscription. Ensure everyone knows who holds the crook and flail (symbols of Pharaoh's power to nurture and smite) in their domain. Empowering leaders requires first establishing the boundaries of their authority.

The Lifeblood: Resource Management – More Than Just Grain Silos

The Nile was Egypt's artery. Pharaoh controlled it. He owned the land (in theory), managed the granaries that fed millions, directed the labor corvées (rotational national service), and controlled vast mineral wealth. This wasn't hoarding; it was strategic resource allocation on a civilizational scale. Grain wasn't just food; it was currency, stability, and the fuel for monumental projects. Labor wasn't coerced slavery (for the most part); it was a national duty, managed in rotations, housed and fed by the state – an early, albeit imperfect, form of human capital investment.

* Lesson 3: Master Your Lifeblood Resources. What is *your* Nile? Your cash flow? Your talent pipeline? Your core technology? Pharaoh knew his kingdom lived or died by the Nile's flood and the granaries' fullness. Identify your critical resources and manage them with obsessive foresight. Build reserves (granaries) for lean times. Invest in your people (housing, food for workers) not just as cost, but as the engine of your monuments. Control and optimize the flow relentlessly.

The Scribe's Stylus: The Power of Recorded Knowledge

Egypt ran on writing. Scribes were the essential knowledge workers, recording taxes, inventories, decrees, architectural plans, and religious texts. The meticulous detail in temple reliefs wasn't just art; it was operational documentation – instructions for rituals that maintained cosmic order. Papyrus scrolls held accounts, legal disputes, medical knowledge, and correspondence. Information was recorded, stored, and accessed.

* Lesson 4: Knowledge Codified is Power Preserved. Pharaohs understood that wisdom and data must be captured. They institutionalized record-keeping. What processes, customer insights, market data, or institutional wisdom are ephemeral in your organization? Capture it! Invest in systems (your modern papyrus and stylus) to document, store, and make accessible critical knowledge. Don't rely on oral tradition or tribal memory; inscribe your wisdom in stone (or databases). This builds resilience and ensures continuity beyond individual leaders.

Monuments as Marketing: Building Brand Eternity

The pyramids, the temples of Karnak and Luxor, the colossal statues – these were not mere vanity projects. They were physical manifestations of power, stability, and divine favor. They projected an image of invincibility to foreign powers and inspired awe and loyalty within the populace. They were the ultimate corporate branding, built to last millennia. "Look upon my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!" wasn't just Ozymandias's boast; it was the Pharaohs' core marketing strategy.

* Lesson 5: Your Legacy is Your Brand's Monument. What tangible evidence endures of your organization's excellence and vision? Is it only your current product, or is it a reputation for quality, innovation, integrity, or impact? Pharaohs invested heavily in building structures that screamed permanence and power. Invest in building a reputation so solid it becomes your monument. Deliver consistently, act with integrity, pursue excellence that endures beyond the next product cycle. Make your brand synonymous with something timeless and valuable.

Facing the Inundation: Crisis Management, Pharaonic Style

The Nile flood was predictable, but not its strength. Too little – famine. Too much – destruction. Plagues, invasions, court intrigues – Pharaohs faced existential crises. Their response? Decisive action rooted in their mandate. They mobilized grain reserves, redirected labor to repair dikes, consulted oracles (their version of risk assessment), and projected unwavering confidence. The story of Joseph interpreting Pharaoh's dream and advising grain storage during plenty for lean years (Genesis 41) is a legendary case study in strategic foresight and crisis preparation.

* Lesson 6: Prepare for the Inundation. Always. Complacency is the enemy of eternity. Pharaohs knew chaos (*Isfet*) lurked. They built granaries and dikes *before* disaster struck. Conduct your "dream interpretation." What are your potential famines and floods? Market crashes? Technological disruption? Talent drains? Build your reserves – financial, operational, intellectual. Have contingency plans etched not on stone, but in your leadership DNA. Project calm authority when the waters rise.

The sands shift, empires fall, but the principles endure. The Pharaohs mastered the art of building something greater than themselves, an enterprise woven into the fabric of time. Their secrets aren't locked in tombs; they are etched in the very structure of their achievement. They understood vision, .

>>24832
Electronic* as also applying more generally to the history of calculating machines

>>24832 (me)
>For the science people outside, health, linguistics and electronics looking in wondering how those fields are getting results while your field is spinning its wheels, it's because those fields require systems thinking to really get anywhere so you're constantly taking notes and rethinking and reviewing your prior notes seeing whether you can find something systemic that fix a lot of things at once and make thinking about the whole problem simpler
On a practical level, it's a tool

When you're working with a chat bot the information in the middle of the Context, ie the stream of text/tonkens so far, has a tendency to get log jammed by the things at the beginning and end of the context; this is due to the structure of the attention based networks most models use

Theoretically, recurrent networks maybe; it may just be a fundamental limitation

The information is still encoded, it just doesn't make it into the output, so on your next prompt you gently nudge it back along with your next note, and if it's an alignment issue, since the inline, in context learning is to oversimplify it a little just back propogation, if you're careful and detailed with your notes the information jammed in the middle should come out

There you go, a machine summarising your notes on every note

Great for science, but you still have to do your own thinking; and then go back and double or even triple check everything

Like I have to go to China anyway to get a specific kind of ink anyway, so I might as well get the parts – since 中国 is the only place that makes them on an industrial scale anyway, or at all in a lot of cases – while I'm there to prove some things in practice

It speeds things up a little, but you still have to do the work and know your shit

If OP is still studying this then looking into ancient laws can tell much about that specific society's economics. Vidrel so you get what I mean. Legal and economic historians have made few study materials on this topic sadly.