/edu/ - Education

the moment you understand women who complain about men too much are on the same spiritual level as incels is the moment everything makes sense.

incels are irrationaly angry at women, women can do the same and be irrationaly angry at men, women just have more hyperbolic arguments to use to mask their mental illness.

when I see a woman saying all men are trash in my mind I'm talking to an incel, there is no difference.

>>25742
it must suck to be a woman because you don't know if men just value you for sex, it's as if they're trapped in the sexual object box

>>25744
It has less to do with sex and with thymos. If you're sexualized but you get loads of money from it you'll feel very happy about it because it gives you megalothymia, i.e feeling to dominate other people. On the contrary if you're sexualized but you get nothing out of it you feel like you've been used and treated less than your peers. This is why some people find sexualization degrading and other find sexualization empowering

>>25745
It's the same thing with AMABS. Most of the men complaining about sexualization of men are ugly men. Good looking men dont whine about sexualization of men because it allows them to fuck a lot of women, which gives them a positive self image and a feeling of megalothymia over normies and women.

>>25746
In conclusion; the state needs to provide sexual welfare to ugly women and men! Give everyone a monthly blowjob/cunnilingus quota

>>25743
/thread

>>25742
>hyperbolic grievance mongering
What did you expect? You are reading a book writen by a fucking goblina.

incel/femcel screeds are just fetish smut and basically indistinguishable from the self-identifying stuff that imagines some alternate gender status quo like omegaverse

>>25749
I wonder how she looked like when she was younger since she apparently was prostituted when she was younger by her anarchist boyfriend. She was apparently also molested as a little girl which may explain a lot of her views.

>Is all radfem literature like this?
No. Read Dialectic of Sex.

>>25751
She looked like a Jewish tomboy

>>25753
So better looking then?

>>25754
I mean if that is your taste, she wasn't as overweight so that's a win in most peoples books

>>25742
Yes hetero males are a problem

Would Ozempic saved her?

Is there a Dworkin discourse going on on twitter, I just saw a thread about her there. I am going to copy it here as I think it is an actually intelligent critique as opposed to misogynist screeching about how she wasnt fuckable enough ITT.

>There is something to be said about the fact that the lost granddaughters of radical feminism obsess over Dworkin's bibliography but rarely engage with the works of the actual founders of the movement. Excerpt above is from Ellen Willis, one of the Redstockings co-founders. To be fair, the whole 1984 essay is an evaluation of the misteps of radical feminism, from its theoretical affiliations, politics and unfolding during the 70s. Here is Butler, 1992, on MacKinnon and Dworkin: [see picrel]

>Butler, on 2024 (Who's Afraid of Gender?), stresses that while MacKinnon is and Andrea was transinclusive thinkers, highlights that even though there is distortion in the GC adoption of their work, the pratical political affiliaitons with the right were premeditated by them. Even though you do find transinclusivity in the Dworkin's wonder, one wonders why she wrote a blurb for Janice Raymond's The Transsexual Empire, which remains the firm theoretical ground for Gender Critical rhetoric. Or better yet: why she didn't criticize it? I know that Andrea's writing can be captivating. It is powerful, a ruthless description of male violence and domination, and I will contend that some aspects of her work can shed light on this. I still think that Right Wing Women is her better work, though, and very useful to expose the logic behind the driving force of the Gender Critical and TERF movements today. Yet, it is entirely dishonest to only look at her writings, to not think on the effects of her political activity and stance. It is not distortion all the way down. While her writing can be great at exposing misoginy, I don't think her work can be separated from a strong polarized sex metaphysics, that, as Willis pointed out, reify the sex-class paradigm. Butler calls it behaviorism, there is an obvious social determination behind it all. That is why I don't used and think that the most damaging concept in this tradition is the "socialization" idea, it flattens out the sexed experience, tending to pretend that "males" and "females" have a firmly homogeneous childhood-youth experience.So yes, Dwrokin has been criticized. By her predecessors and her sucessors. Keep in mind that Butler was a radfem and is a lesbian, and it was exactly this perspective that allowed her to perceive all the shortcomings and implicit aspects of Dworkin and MacKinnon's thought.

>>25758
>dworkin is le bad because she didn't care for transhumanists
I still prefer the mysoginist ad hominem argument.

>>25759
Yeah I know you do.

Not only radfem literature, Marxist-feminist literature is the only kind of feminist literature that's somewhat sane.

>moved to a dead board
Does one of the mods have a soft spot for Dworkin?

>>758385
Then don't be an object
Like they can't rape you legally. If you have higher standards how can anyone objectify you? At least in that way

Y'all just don't wanna call a woman a gooner. Women are huge gooners. And I don't have to feel bad for a gooner that was completely your own doing so too bad. No love for whores. Just disease and gaslighting

all of them were neurotic bug-women

>>25746
amab is bioessentialist fash lang btw

>>25758
>Muh sexual orientation
>Butler
All of this nonsense is based on the idiocy funded by glowies in the early 70s. It's all post-modernist identity politics drivel based on feels > reals mentality and a driven hatred for class consciousness. Debunking all of this pseudoscientific bunk is a waste of time because it's nothing more than radlib oppression olympics, demonstrating yet again how gender and racial ideology of any sort is nothing more than Western babble meant to divide the proletariat.

>>25768
>Then don't be an object

What are you then? You certainly don't come across as a conscious intelligent lifeform that actually says something of substance, you're just a wind-up toy that dispenses prepackaged dismissive responses to stimuli.

>>25758
If you make fun the looks of a fascist, no one turns an eye
If you make fun of the looks of a radfem, you'll find tears.

It is not misogynist, stop legitimizing her you subhuman female supremacist.

I read Dworkin's account of her relationship with Israel as a thinly veiled analogy to her growing disillusionment with the women's liberation movement. Her advocacy for a "women's Israel" being at once a call for militancy within an increasingly bureaucratised and politically compatible feminist movement, but also an expression of her own inability to conceptualise this militancy outside of her general metaphysical understanding of violence as a fundamentally virtuous response to immense collective suffering.

Certain sects of petty bourgeois "radical feminism" have a tendency to raise Dworkin and her work in particular to the skies, precisely because she is not primarily an author of political theory, but because she gives a literary expression to the mass suffering of women as a class and to the barely repressed need for their collective vengeance. In short, Dworkin's work scratches the same sort of itch in women as Fanon does for colonised peoples.

Reducing Dworkin to "hyperbolic grievance mongering" however is nothing more than an undiluted expression of utter misogyny, comparable in intellectual rigour to simply dismissing The Wretched of the Earth on these exact same premises. The class content of both "Dworkinism" and "Fanonism" by themselves is without a doubt petty bourgeois, but they remain progressive articulations of actual material grievances all the same. As communists, we are obliged to systematise these articulations rather than to dismissing them out of hand.

>>25818

how is the class content of dworkinism and fanonism "without a doubt" petty bourgeois??

Feminism is a basically nebulous term that means any woman analyzing women's issues. A lot of it is total garbage. The most famously "based" feminists actually refused the term. Both Goldman and Kollontai refused to be labeled as feminists. A good book on this is Enemy Feminism by Sophie Lewis. It's an amazing book if you want to learn about a bunch of terrible women who are exemplary "Feminists" to some

>>25751
nah being molested as a kid doesn't turn you into a harpy
t. molested as a kid

>>25831
I said may explain

>>25758
You notice that Dworkin and the like think about Men in the same inherent way people who post about Sakai think about Settlers

>>25803
Insisting all post modern thought ignores class is psuedo behavior

>>25758
It may be progressive or airing real grievances but it is still ultimately that, grievances. Her ideas of solutions to and the origins of said grievances are absurd and stupid. Something that is progressive and flawed must be critiqued. Marx did not settle for the utopian Socialists for his day, he analyzed the problems of their thought. Part of these problems were in fact reasons they were dismissed and were important to understand!

>>25832
Fair, I just think people give undue weight to molestation in the formationm of a persons personality when someone's entire life content are much more important. Dworkins absurd hatred for men came from more than a single event but her context and the choices she made. We often think these experiences have more profound impacts than they do because people who engage in that behavior tend to seek out people who are already in precarious and bad circumstances. To speak from my molesters point of view briefly, I was a good target because I was lonely and severly emotionally neglected and lacked independence. I was easy to manipulate because he was my one of the few sources of "freedom" from my family.

My strange tastes and taboo interests have more to do with my familial and cultural enviroment than what I did with him. I ultimately think our culture is harmful to victims actually recovering from the event. Often victims get trapped in cycles of rumination and blame over the bad experience. Often times these experiences are just that, bad experiences, and ruminating on them is like ruminating on stubbed toe. That's not to be a conservative dimssing victims feelings, the feelings are very much real and cruelty to the victims about it hurts them even more than overemphasizing. One of the big sources of pain for me was that my mother had pratically gloated when she found out the man had sexual relations with me because she already disliked him and now she had an excuse to punish me by getting rid of him.
I'm not sure if Dworkin had a similar experience to me or was exploited in a more heinous way them me, yet either way it wasn't the sole source of her politics. It was the sum of multiple experiences including the assualt that produced her

>>25818
>Reducing Dworkin to "hyperbolic grievance mongering" however is nothing more than an undiluted expression of utter misogyny
The only way you could even begin to believe anything Dworkin wrote is if you believe that women are innocent, hapless, childlike creatures who are entirely incapable of controlling any aspect of their own lives by their own power and whose natural predisposition is to completely submit and grovel before men if they show even the slightest sign of dominance and are not entirely holding themselves back.

I know Dworkinites will deny up and down that she said that all heterosexual sex is rape, but that is simply the natural conclusion of her beliefs. If you define sex partially coerced through massive power imbalance, and also see men strong, dominant and violent while women are feeble, meek, cringing and more or less in a state of perpetual childhood, then you could only conclude that these two groups is a form of rape in the same way that an adult having sex with a child is always a form of rape.

>>25834
Not what was said, nor an argument. Modern ideology is liberal garbage.

>>25818
>I read Dworkin's account of her relationship with Israel as a thinly veiled analogy to her growing disillusionment with the women's liberation movement.
The very term "women's liberation movement" in this time-period and in a Western context (that she is almost exclusively referring to) is so retarded as to be fucking comedic, if not for the fact that there are stupid entitled burger-women and men that actually subscribe to this ideological bullshit.
>"women's Israel"
<Shilling for nationalist-ethno-state but for a specific sex

>she gives a literary expression to the mass suffering of women as a class
Women are not a separate class, but an identity. Take off that Soviet flag, you bring shame to Marxism-Leninism.
>the barely repressed need for their collective vengeance.
What need? Do you even know what 'need' means? Vengeance on whom?
>nothing more than an undiluted expression of utter misogyny
No, it is dismissing pseudo-intellectual projection of a hateful spinster and not giving the long-winded rubbish more time than it deserves. Calling a cunt out for being a cunt is not misogyny you liberal.
>The Wretched of the Earth
An entirely different book written in an entirely different context with legitimate basis and grievances and that doesn't simply break down things into "le whitey oppressing the blacks"
>they remain progressive articulations of actual material grievances
Stop conflating an anti-colonial book with some hyperbolic rubbish written by a glowie bitch. Idpol is never fucking progressive, nor does that have any meaning; eugenics were "progressive", doesn't mean they're good.
>As communists, we are obliged to systematise these articulations rather than to dismissing them out of hand
<hello fellow kids *cough* I mean communists!
As communists we address REAL issues and those of identity within a class perspective through dialectical materialism. We do not validate oppression olympic bullshit. Just cry "class reductionism" and stop pretending to be a communist.

>>25830
THIS

>>25831
Sexual abuse or growing up around it absolutely will fuck with someone in their formative years and more often than not results in a broken terrible person. Many serial killers and rapists were sexually abused or mistreated. Chikotilo witnessed his mother get raped by German soldiers.

>>25742
The problem with Dworkin isn't that she's wrong but that's she's trivial. Marriage and prostitution are both paid rape. Who cares?

>>25843
Having read some Dworkin, I don't know if she ever directly said that because it seems like she never directly says anything ever. All Dworkin does is complain about men, and all positions she is said to hold seems to be more inferred from the exact way that she is complaining about men in any given work rather than directly stated.