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/edu/ - Education

'The weapon of criticism cannot, of course, replace criticism of the weapon, material force must be overthrown by material force; but theory also becomes a material force as soon as it has gripped the masses.' - Karl Marx
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File: 1630868237667.jpg (952.98 KB, 1458x1977, Trofim_Lysenko_portrait.jpg)

 No.7295[View All]

i'm curious to learn about him, how catastrophic was he for soviet agriculture or was he actually not all that bad? i'd appreciate some reading material about this matter too thanks
174 posts and 30 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.12452

>>7453
>Dubinin

Lol, even Khruschev didn't like him

>On June 29, 1959, at the plenum of the CPSU Central Committee, Khrushchev, in connection with Dubinin's appointment as director of the Institute of Cytology and Genetics established in Novosibirsk, said: "The work of this scientist brought very little benefit to science and practice. If Dubinin is known for anything, it is for his articles and speeches against the theoretical provisions and practical recommendations of Academician Lysenko. I don't want to be a judge between the directions in the work of these two scientists. The judge, as you know, is practice, life. And practice speaks in defense of Michurin's biological school and Academician Lysenko, the successor of his work."

 No.12455

Gene skeptics claim that there is no coherence to the way gene is used at the molecular level and that this term does not designate a natural kind; rather, gene is allegedly used to pick out many different kinds of units in DNA. DNA consists of “coding” regions that are transcribed into RNA, different kinds of regulatory regions, and in higher organisms, a number of regions whose functions are less clear and perhaps in cases non-existent. Skepticism about genes is based in part on the idea that the term is sometimes applied to only parts of a coding region, sometimes to an entire coding region, sometimes to parts of a coding region and to regions that regulate that coding region, and sometimes to an entire coding region and regulatory regions affecting or potentially affecting the transcription of the coding region. Skeptics (e.g., Burian 1986, Portin 1993, and Kitcher 1992) have concluded, as Kitcher succinctly puts it: “a gene is whatever a competent biologist chooses to call a gene” (Kitcher 1992, p. 131).

Biological textbooks contain definitions of gene and it is instructive to consider one in order to show that the conceptual situation is indeed unsettling. The most prevalent contemporary definition is that a gene is the fundamental unit that codes for a polypeptide. One problem with this definition is that it excludes many segments that are typically referred to as genes. Some DNA segments code for functional RNA molecules that are never translated into polypeptides. Such RNA molecules include transfer RNA, ribosomal RNA, and RNA molecules that play regulatory and catalytic roles. Hence, this definition is too narrow.

Another problem with this common definition is that it is based on an overly simplistic account of DNA expression. According to this simple account, a gene is a sequence of nucleotides in DNA that is transcribed into a sequence of nucleotides making up a messenger RNA molecule that is in turn translated into sequence of amino acids that forms a polypeptide. (Biologists talk as if genes “produce the polypeptide molecules” or “provide the information for the polypeptide”.) The real situation of DNA expression, however, is often far more complex. For example, in plants and animals, many mRNA molecules are processed before they are translated into polypeptides. In these cases, portions of the RNA molecule, called introns, are snipped out and the remaining segments, called exons, are spliced together before the RNA molecule leaves the cellular nucleus. Sometimes biologists call the entire DNA region, that is the region that corresponds to both introns and exons, the gene. Other times, they call only the portions of the DNA segment corresponding to the exons the gene. (This means that some DNA segments that geneticists call genes are not continuous segments of DNA; they are collections of discontinuous exons. Geneticists call these split genes.) Further complications arise because the splicing of exons in some cases is executed differentially in different tissue types and at different developmental stages. (This means that there are overlapping genes.) The problem with the common definition that genes are DNA segments that “code for polypeptides” is that the notion of “coding for a polypeptide” is ambiguous when it comes to actual complications of DNA expression. Gene skeptics argue that it is hopelessly ambiguous (Burian 1986, Fogle 1990 and 2000, Kitcher 1992, and Portin 1993).

Clearly, this definition, which is the most common and prominent textbook definition, is too narrow to be applied to the range of segments that geneticists commonly call genes and too ambiguous to provide a single, precise partition of DNA into separate genes. Textbooks include many definitions of the gene. In fact, philosophers have often been frustrated by the tendency of biologists to define and use the term gene in a number of contradictory ways in one and the same textbook. After subjecting the alternative definitions to philosophical scrutiny, gene skeptics have concluded that the problem isn't simply a lack of analytical rigor. The problem is that there simply is no such thing as a gene at the molecular level. That is, there is no single, uniform, and unambiguous way to divide a DNA molecule into different genes. Gene skeptics have often argued that biologists should couch their science in terms of DNA segments such exon, intron, promotor region, and so on, and dispense with the term gene altogether (most forcefully argued by Fogle 2000).

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/molecular-genetics/#WhaGen

 No.12493

Not really about Lysenko, but to demonstrate something about plants' genes https://www.quantamagazine.org/dna-of-giant-corpse-flower-parasite-surprises-biologists-20210421/ Literally siphons genes out of vines corpse flower attaches itself to. That's basically Lysenko's hybridization of various trees and plants.

 No.12495

>>7295
libtard redditors always argue that Lysenko's methods caused famine in both USSR and China? Is there any truth to this?

 No.12551

>>12495
Short answer is no. Long answer is also no, but with details such as critics of Lysenko being in charge of Ukraine's agriculture at the time, with them failing to implement new methods of agriculture (as in "not even trying to start an implementation") while everyone else reported higher agricultural yields and efficiency

 No.12573

>>12551
Can you describe what does methods were?

 No.12604

>>12573
As if I know (remember) the details, lol. Like, I know that under Lysenko, there were a lot of "tricks" being done to facilitate higher yields. For example, digging ponds and breeding fish there, or a lot of channels, or much joked about planting methods for bush-like plants, or creating wind-shielding green belts around the fields that prevented soil erosion, etc etc. Basically, it's modern agriculture? In regards to breeding, again, I'm not a specialist, but, say, there's this https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9B%D1%8E%D1%82%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%86%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%81 which was bred by a Lysenko follower, using the Lysenko breeding methods for creating new sorts of grain (can't remember the exact method, but there was a thread about it assaulted by a smartass with monkey avatars on leftypol). So, this lutescens grain was sown in 50% of grain fields in USSR in 1970+, despite the claim that Lysenko's methods in breeding didn't work.

 No.12606

>>7313
>unchanging entities (the genes)
Nobody actually thinks this, you moron. What do you think gene mutation is?

 No.12607

>>7431
>>7425
>>7404
>>7376
>>7371
only sane poster ITT

there are some infracels here losing their minds over this shit

 No.12608

>>7456
>Like, we all knew about ways that would work in the meantime. Even if his ideas had merit it makes more sense to first test and refine them.

Lysenko was testing his ideas for years, though. Before the plan for Great Transformation he had stations committed to trying out desert greening around Astrakhan. When it worked, the ideas were put to use - but then Khruschev came

 No.12609

>>7371
>Despite the authors trying to make it seem like there is a lot of evidence for Lysenkos observations, they admit the lack of empirical evidence in the final paragraphs.

Nobody does the experiments that go against the dogma, therefore there's no empirical evidence. DUH.

Next, there's also the case of plants and animals having different genetic makeup and the way genes are transmitted, with plants having huge degrees of horizontal gene transfer. Even a simple act of planting a part of one plant into another and connecting them creates hybrids, with fruits from those having hybrid properties. Again, nobody did the experiments, but whenever they do it turns out true.

Wasn't it an american again who tried to hybridize plants along Lysenko's method, but omitting Lysenko entirely? It's kind of hilarious how the defence against the truthdom of Lysenko is that nobody tries to actually disprove him, instead opting for "no sane scientist believes him!"

 No.12621

>>12609
According to Lysenko wheat would regularly turn into rye without human interference. Why can't this be observed on modern wheat fields? Is the MOG (Mendelian Occupied Government) suppressing the truth?

 No.12622

>>12621
Only proletarian wheat can do that

 No.12627

File: 1678826452393-0.png (55.58 KB, 725x669, lysenko.png)

File: 1678826452393-1.png (151.85 KB, 1096x1126, lysenko2.png)

File: 1678826452393-2.png (104.32 KB, 1145x757, lysenko3.png)

VINDICATED

 No.12628

File: 1678826484574-0.png (136.15 KB, 1122x1094, lysenko4.png)

File: 1678826484574-1.png (210.06 KB, 1066x1598, lysenko5.png)

File: 1678826484574-2.png (230.61 KB, 1086x1666, lysenko6.png)

ABSOLVED

 No.12701

>>7404
>. A gene is a length of DNA that codes for a specific protein or RNA. They are distinct, actually existing units
They aren't "distinct". Thing is, those sections of DNA a) don't have to be near each other b) can overlap, meaning a section of DNA can be a part of more than one gene. And here we start to have a problem with genes as "distinct, actually existing units". DNA physically exist, nucleotides that it is composed from physically exist, proteins physicaly exist. Genes do not - they are an abstraction over actual physical reality that is actually harmful to understanding of how said reality works. Fankly in my opinion it's an outdated concept that we drag from XIX century out of habit and inability of current system to revise the biological concepts to match the actual data we have. Hell, we don't even have a definition for a gene that all biologists will agree with. It should be put down like an old yeller and new system of concepts and definitions should be built instead. But that's not gonna happen under capitalism, so we are stuck with it.

Maybe "highschool biology" is not enough to discuss said topics.

 No.12702

>>12701
>Thing is, those sections of DNA a) don't have to be near each other
A gene being located diffusely on the DNA strand doesn't mean it's not distinct or doesn't exist. Things don't have to be physically connected to be distinct or exist. A file on your computer is analogous here - the physical 1s and 0s that make up a file are not necessarily consecutive on the storage devices but you can still say the file data is there.
>Thing is, those sections of DNA b) can overlap
Because of the above, this means that you can have a particular segment be used by multiple things. This is just a more efficient use of the space. Proteins are highly complex molecules and often have pieces that are constructed in the same way. You don't need to put the entire instruction set for assembling a protein in one continuous segment if you can jump around the DNA to find the instructions for the parts you need, and that means you can have parts that code for structures that are found in multiple different places. It's like if you are playing a video game on a disc, and to load up a level the game references the main master data that gives the overall structure but then jumps around the disc as that level data tells it what objects and enemies to populate the level with. You don't need to have the entire code for each individual goomba or red barrel that appears in the game if you can just reference the single instruction set for that from within another instruction set. That's how DNA works, and if it didn't life would be massively less efficient.

Genes are distinct, they just have a significantly more complex structure than is often implied by popular science. Genes can contain references to each other or to things that aren't genes, not very unlike what computer code can do.

 No.12703

>>12702
Jesus, your analogies suck. If you don't understand how computers works, please, don't try to explain the biology through them. For example, no, storage devices don't use same segment for multiple files, that would be catastrophic. Which is why computer files are distinct. Genes aren't.

>Genes are distinct

Nucleotides are. Genes aren't. They are metaphysical concept and a pretty outdated one. Which happens when you try to use metaphysical approach to describe a process.

You basically ignored the most important parts of my argument about genes overlaping and lack of definition for them that most biologists would agree to and just threw up multiple BAD analogies to computers about the first point.

 No.12704

>>12702
Are you using "highschool computer science" too?

 No.12705

>>12703
>For example, no, storage devices don't use same segment for multiple files
Sure they do, like if I have a document that contains references to another file existing elsewhere. It works the same way as a particular protein referencing a particular DNA segment. I can have multiple documents that reference the same file elsewhere and if I change that file the wrong way it can break the reference.
>Nucleotides are. Genes aren't.
If genes weren't distinct protein synthesis would be impossible. The process of building a protein molecule needs to have a beginning and an end. If the set of instructions (genes) were not distinct the process wouldn't work.

>You basically ignored the most important parts of my argument about genes overlaping

No I addressed that. It's more efficient. When you compress a file you follow a similar principle of having a smaller number of reference points to cover more results you need to get.
>and lack of definition for them that most biologists would agree to
"Scientists can't agree on a definition" doesn't mean something doesn't exist. Do you gravity isn't real until there's a consensus scientific definition? Total non argument and you should be embarrassed to even say it once let alone to repeat it.

You are just mad because you're ideologically wed to a wrong position and resort to insults and pretending your arguments weren't addressed because you have nothing else.

 No.12706

>>12705
>Sure they do, like if I have a document that contains references to another file existing elsewhere.
The more i talk to you the more i have the idea that you just don't know what you are talking about. No, "ones and zeros" are not shared between files. That would be architectural nighmare.
>If genes weren't distinct protein synthesis would be impossible.
Not if you stop thinking in metapysical framework.
>"Scientists can't agree on a definition" doesn't mean something doesn't exist.
It does mean that the specific defition is problematic. Biologist don't have same problems with DNA or protein for example.
>Do you gravity isn't real until there's a consensus scientific definition?
Except there is. Please don't throw random argument and hope they just stick.
>It's more efficient. When you compress a file you follow a similar principle of having a smaller number of reference points to cover more results you need to get.
Learn how compression works. Information is compressed within one file. This file doesn't "reference" (what the fuck does that even mean? a link?) other files by sharing "ones and zeros". In fact it would be a separate file from the original. And "information" within that file would be compressed, which is why information is not a physical distinct thing, but file is.
> ideologically wed to a wrong position
Ironic

 No.12755

this biochemical process is 'metaphysics' according to online MLs

 No.12802

>>7301
how can one anon be so right?
genetics is bourgeois pseudoscience
>>12755

 No.12832

>>12755
If it was described AS PROCESS (meaning, diealectically), instead of a collection of separate entities - genes, it wouldn't be metaphysical. That is the whole problem with the concept of the gene.

It's like you missed the whole point of the argument.

 No.12833

>>12604
>Basically, it's modern agriculture?
It's what people wish modern agriculture would look like. Lysenko dvocated ecological approach in creating a systems that support and restore each other without depletion. Something many "organic farming" and permaculture advocates are trying to push now.

Funny how many of their research and tecniques are based on soviet research from the 30s and 40s.

 No.12860

File: 1682249536267.png (629 KB, 619x640, ClipboardImage.png)

>>12832
How does being part of a process disproves the existence of genes? This is like claiming, that tides being created by the moons gravity, disproves the existence of the moon.

 No.12861

>>12860
Mendelism-Morganism-Weissmanism rejects cellular reproduction as a material process.
From the reductionist concept of a gene and germoplasm theory, it reifies genetic material into an inalterable metaphysical entity divorced from the rest of the organism. Mendel explicitly used his experiments to oppose Darwinism and establish genes as god-given.
Evolutionary gradualism reconciles this denial of genetic change by an inner impetus with Darwinism, by attributing it to random outside interference.

Studying the replication and expression of DNA is NOT the main objective of Mendelist genetics. I took a course in biology and even in the examples of DNA sequences we were given, the gene concept completely broke down. It is only rarely appropritate to attribute a phenotypical expression to the existence of a specific DNA segment, such as with some hereditary diseases.

 No.12866

>>12860
no one in their right mind would suggest for instance that tides have their own substantial reality

 No.12867

>>12706
>>If genes weren't distinct protein synthesis would be impossible.
>Not if you stop thinking in metapysical framework.
What the fuck are you talking about? Proteins are extremely specific molecules, not just in the chemical structure but physically too. If they get folded wrong they can become prions and cause degenerative diseases. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prion Whenever an organism synthesizes proteins it has to follow a discrete set of instructions, depending on the protein being synthesized, whether it's collagen, myostatin, hemoglobin, whatever. And that's literally what genes are for: they provide the instructions for protein synthesis. Genes may overlap or skip around the mRNA strand but there is a 1:1 relationship between the gene and the protein it codes for, because it's that sequence of nitrogen bases that gets read to produce the protein.

 No.12868

>>12867
DNA isn't translated as an immediate result of being present. Expression is regulated by numerous cell processes and altered by quirks in the sequences themselves. Even when translated, many sequences remain as non-coding RNA involved in other cell processes.
>Proteins are extremely specific molecules
This is simply not true. Straight from wikipedia:
<Most amino acids in a protein can be changed without disrupting activity or function, as can be seen from numerous homologous proteins across species (as collected in specialized databases for protein families, e.g. PFAM).
Proteins are usually only affected by (nonsilent) mutations in very specific sections. Amino acids differ in the propensities of their bases to form different intramolecular bonds, meaning even in these critical sections different base groups may fold close enough to preserve function.
Prions really say more about specific mutagens than the structure of proteins.

 No.12869

>>12868
>DNA isn't translated as an immediate result of being present.
So what? It gets copied to RNA for actual use. If the DNA had to be used directly then it would either have to get spliced up all the time or would need to bring the ribosomes to it for them to print proteins. Also, a cell is going to often need to print more than one of a protein at the same time, so of course creating a copy of the segments that are needed at a particular time is better and would come to dominate over organisms that use the cell's core genetic code directly. Eukaryotes also benefit by keeping the DNA shielded in the nucleus which can prevent damage.
>Expression is regulated by numerous cell processes and altered by quirks in the sequences themselves.
So what? Notice how you say "regulated" and "altered" instead of something like "defined." Additional processes affecting the outcome doesn't disprove another process. Somebody else mentioned tides, so to use that example, the topography of the land and seabed as well as weather conditions also affect the results of tidal shifts, but the primary and underlying factor is still the moon's gravity. Other conditions can affect how DNA is read, but that depends on the organism's functions being based on reading the DNA in the first place.
>Even when translated, many sequences remain as non-coding RNA involved in other cell processes.
So what? Very frequently in biology we can see one thing, a structure, an organ system, a hormone, doing multiple things. This is a common feature because it's more efficient to have one thing serving multiple purposes, since organisms generally live in resource-scarce environments and have to live within limits.

>Proteins are usually only affected by (nonsilent) mutations in very specific sections. Amino acids differ in the propensities of their bases to form different intramolecular bonds, meaning even in these critical sections different base groups may fold close enough to preserve function.

Just because they don't have to be exact matches doesn't mean they don't have to be constructed in a very specific way. You might be able to swap out amino acids, but you still have to put the protein together in the same manner for it to have its function. An organism often can't produce all the amino acids it needs (essential amino acids you get from your diet). Variable amino acids making up equivalent proteins in different species has more to do with adaptation to different amino acid profiles available in their diet, and doesn't relate as much to the overall structure of the protein itself. The actual assembly of the protein is relatively straightforward, but the folding is a much more complex process - there are only so many bonds you can make between atoms before you run out of available space in the valence shell, but as a protein molecule increases in size the possible folding patterns explode in complexity. Only certain patterns work, which is why different species have homologous proteins with the same basic shape fulfilling similar functions but built with different amino acids. You can sometimes swap out amino acids and be fine, but you can't alter the shape (folding) much without altering the function. That's the complicated part of protein synthesis, not the basic ingredients (which are still determined by the genes). The different protein construction is notably consistent - humans don't randomly get homologous proteins from a different species and vice versa. That's because these differences aren't random but coded genetically in different ways (because the species evolved with different pressures).
>Prions really say more about specific mutagens than the structure of proteins.
Prions can and do appear spontaneously due to misfolded proteins among other causes like exposure to existing prions.

 No.12870

>So what?
DNA is not the self promulgating, determining feature of biological life it is often made out to be. It stands in an inseparable relation to the specific type of cell it inhabits, that falls under the dialectical notion of necessity.
>the topography of the land and seabed as well as weather conditions also affect the results of tidal shifts, but the primary and underlying factor is still the moon's gravity.
Tidal forces result from the effect of the moon on the water, where the gravitational force of the water on the moon is negligeable. Cellular processes arise from many relationships between organelles, proteins and other specific molecules.
>Notice how you say "regulated" and "altered" instead of something like "defined."
Let me rephrase: DNA methylation and packaging defines which segments are being expressed.
If you needed a metaphor, you could say DNA is a collection of blueprints. The cell directs production by making them available to transcribing proteins.
>Prions can and do appear spontaneously due to misfolded proteins among other causes like exposure to existing prions.
How often does that occur? The only significant prion disease i'm aware of is BSE.
>the folding is a much more complex process
This is particularly important and further undermines your notion of 1:1 correspondence. Proteins need specific environments to properly fold (sometimes provided by chaperones).
I don't get why proteins being "constructed in a very specific way" is supposed to necessitate the existence of genes. Rather it seems to run counter to the concept, because their formation requires many factors beyond a DNA segment that is being transcribed and they don't show any genetic drift.
How do you reconcile the absence of homologous proteins in a species with evolutionary gradualism?

 No.12871

>>12870
>DNA is not the self promulgating, determining feature of biological life it is often made out to be.
Nobody is saying DNA solely determines biological life today, because many other complicating factors have since been discovered. That's how science works - you learn more information and it builds on the theory. DNA is still the primary defining element of an organism in the sense that all other functions depend on the sequences in the DNA.
>If you needed a metaphor, you could say DNA is a collection of blueprints. The cell directs production by making them available to transcribing proteins.
none of that means genes don't exist, it just means they are not sole determinants, which is not something mainstream biology argues.
>How often does that occur? The only significant prion disease i'm aware of is BSE.
Not very often, because protein synthesis is successful in the vast majority of cases (99+% because protein synthesis is happening all the time in all living cells), but yes there are a lot of prion diseases. One of the most threatening ones is chronic wasting disease which is endemic in North American deer but can spread to other species and contaminates the land where the infected deer roam and die.
>I don't get why proteins being "constructed in a very specific way" is supposed to necessitate the existence of genes.
Because the genes are what provides the instructions, as you put it "blueprints" for how to synthesize the proteins. For a given protein to synthesize regularly and consistently there has to be a sequence in the DNA that can be copied to produce those instructions for use. For every specific protein that can be produced there is a particular set of instructions. The specific sequence that produces that protein is the gene.
>Rather it seems to run counter to the concept, because their formation requires many factors beyond a DNA segment that is being transcribed and they don't show any genetic drift.
The genetic information is what provides the instructions, and cells reproduce most of the distinct parts of themselves according to the code in the DNA (mitochondria have their own DNA, and some things need to be absorbed from outside the body, viruses, etc). Environment also affects this but invoking the other contents of the cell to discredit genes makes no sense because those cellular components - the organelles, the cell membrane, the cytoplasm, etc - are biologically produced in the cell according to the instructions in the nuclear DNA. Just because the DNA does not contain within itself the entire "factory" of biological production doesn't mean that it doesn't contain the instructions. The DNA needs to be in a cell in order for the instructions to be read and to be used, but it is still the home of the instructions.
>How do you reconcile the absence of homologous proteins in a species with evolutionary gradualism?
This is a non-issue first of all (nowhere did I posit gradualism, which like its primary competitor punctuated equilibrium is an outdated model), but like I said above, the ingredients of proteins isn't just a product of evolutionary drift but also selection pressures, in particular the diet of the organism. An organism that gets more of a particular amino acid will be under pressure to substitute that amino acid over ones it gets less of, because that's advantageous. But more importantly the very idea that scientific theories need to be "reconciled" or else be rejected is completely wrongheaded. It's not unusual for scientific theories to at first seem in contradiciton because they are incomplete, only to be improved later. In the meantime they are valid insofar as they can be validated by experiment, and if/when the theories are reconciled the previous data don't stop being true. But when physicists moved on from classical physics to quantum physics or from newtonian to relativistic physics the idea of gravity or electrons didn't stop being "correct." The models describing them got more accurate (and more sophisticated).

 No.12872

File: 1682415337004.png (213.59 KB, 302x300, ClipboardImage.png)

I would be very interested to learn how viruses work according to Lysenkoists.

 No.12891

Fucking idiots in this thread pretending that gene scepticism is some fringe ML Lysenko fan shit and not something that is discussed by actual modern biologist.

 No.20909

File: 1699220808625.jpg (2.73 MB, 2760x1177, Z Hero Lysenko.jpg)

>>7295
I suggest seeing my set of effortposts on the first Permaculture thread
>>>/hobby/34910

 No.20910

>>12872
Lysenkoist here. Viruses don't exist.

 No.20911

>>12861
>Mendelism-Morganism-Weissmanism rejects cellular reproduction as a material process.
show me a "mendelist-morganist-weissmanist" paper or whatever that says this

 No.20918

>>20911
It is commonly called the "Modern Synthesis". What is taught in schools is precisely this revisionist distortion of Darwinism by the mendelists.

 No.20919

Natural selction is real and Lysenko was a coping idealist, who had no coherent theory for how evolution works.

 No.20920

>>20919
Eugenics takes the notion of selective breeding, inseperable from the immediate conception of darwinism, and elevates it in opposition to the evolutionary process subject to history that is natural selection.
Lysenko was a darwinist, in many ways moreso than Morgan or Weissman.

 No.20921

>>20920
Explain the mechanisms behind Lysenkos theory of evolution. No word salad and no 'muh Weissman and Morgan'. Just a clear materialist explaination for how wheat can turn itself into rye.

 No.20922

File: 1699356995076.pdf (2.07 MB, 67x118, dandelion.pdf)

>>20921
Lysenko was mainly an agronomist, not an evolutionary biologist. His views on evolution were more or less in line with the creative darwinism of most russian biologists at the time.
Darwin notably had his own theory about the inheritance of aquired characteristics. The michurinist tradition Lysenko came from crucially makes use of it by plant grafting, acting in opposition to mendelist dogma.
The only point on which Lysenko vocally disagreed with Darwin was the demarcation of species through selection pressure. A concrete counterexample he provides is the higher yield achieved by planting a dandelion variety in clusters. See the attached excerpt from Land in Bloom, winner of the 1949 stalin prize, for a more detailed account.

>Just a clear materialist explaination for how wheat can turn itself into rye.

That is already well discussed in >>7318 and the reply chain. What many western scientist took issue with and attribute the results of Lysenko's wheat experiment to, is the absence of strictly controlled laboratory conditions in many of his experiments. To understand this one must know that before Lysenko many biologists were of an entrenched elite uninterested in practical research.
Especially the mendelian geneticist wasted copious amounts of funding for purely scholastic experiments such as blasting flies with x-radiation. Lysenko brought biology back to the fields and in the process brought many concrete improvements to soviet agriculture.
The optimal method is obviously a combination of field research and laboratory research, but the focus should always lie on the former.

 No.20923

>>20922
I have read every pro lysenko post ITT. None of them could give me a coherent explanation for how evolution worked according to Lysenko. Try to describe the material processes behind creative darwinism. Don't bother writing anything about research history or the moral character of the scientific community, just give me a clear rundown on how wheat can turn into rye.

 No.20924

Lysenkochads stay winning

>The Collective Intelligence of Cells During Morphogenesis with Dr. Michael Levin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4Fm7jLNrpg

Genetics completely debunked in only two hours.

 No.20927

>>20924
There is nothing about one species transmuting itself into an entirely new one. Why did you lie about the content of this video?

 No.20928

>>20923
>>20927
To summarize previous posts in this thread: "Transmutation" of species lies entirely within the realm of possibility with horizontal gene transfer. The experiment carried out by Lysenko has neither been verified nor disproved by anyone else.
Lysenko at the time did not have the means to investigate the more elusive material processes in his experiments. Neither could the mendelists find their genes in a living cell. The material characteristics of chromatin could only start being investigated from the 60s onwards.
You are obviously hyperfocusing on this one experiment to reject all of Lysenko's work, as well as Michurin's prior work, and feel smug about defending the biologicist orthodoxy.

 No.20929

not even a relevant debate anymore. biology has moved far past this discussion. it's outdated.

 No.20930

>>20928
That is not what horizontal gene transfer means.
>The experiment carried out by Lysenko has neither been verified nor disproved by anyone else.
According to Lysenko wheat would regularly produce rye grains without human intervention. Strange how this never seems to have happened again in the history of agriculture.
>You are obviously hyperfocusing on this one experiment
I am hyper focusing on the things he actually wrote. Otherwise you will just claim that he discovered epigenetics, despite there being no connection to his theory of creative darwinism.
>all of Lysenko's work
How he treated cows better and whether or not that lead to more milk isn't relevant.

 No.21138

I now know why all of you are so mad
https://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-4078


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