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File: 1656914308691.png (8.53 KB, 449x209, ClipboardImage.png)

 No.19851

Is Dwarf Fortress the most Historical Materialist game of all time?

>Simulates thousands of years of history

>Simulates individual lives
>Simulates entire economies
>Simulates private property, families, cities, states
>does not privilege the player with any kind of protagonism. You are simply an entity in a larger civilization
>any entity can be wiped out at any given moment and replaced with a similar one.
>deep physics simluation that includes erosion, precipitation, and the formation of continents
>can instantaneously generate an entire encyclopedia of interconnected occurences spanning thousands of years
>simulates marriage, divorce, courtship, cheating, betrayal, coups, assassinations, persecutions, and purges

 No.19894

>>Simulates entire economies
It's only bartering tho. The dev tried to simulate a capitalist economy, but the resulting coin placement bugs, chronic unemployment, fortress gentrification and periodic economic crises made the game near unplayable.
https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Dwarven_economy

 No.19898

>>19894
>The dev tried to simulate a capitalist economy, but the resulting coin placement bugs, chronic unemployment, fortress gentrification and periodic economic crises made the game near unplayable.
3realistic5me

 No.19899

>>19894
Lol the old wiki page even talks about how to set room rents to zero.

Literally Dwarf Fortress rent control.

 No.19901

>>19894
>simulate capitalism.
>fort end up becoming a shack where most live in poverty and an minority lives in weath while most lives in slums while crisis destroy everything.
what Armok mean by this…

 No.19912

>simulation
Most populations aside from historical figures (government positions, famous warriors, monsters, stuff like that) are abstracted and don't exist until the player makes a fort or visits those locations in adventure mode.
>historical materialism
Not really, civilizations themselves are static throughout history. Civilization-level values and government positions are predetermined at start (although human values are randomized) and unable to change, so you'll never end up with dwarven civilizations with conflicting values, and intra-civilizational conflicts, like wars of succession, rebellion, or new forms of govenment, are completely impossible. Plus the sentient races have varying levels of biological determinism, with goblins being the most extreme example. Goblins are physically incapable of being altruistic (on the scale of 1-100 for that personality facet, it caps at 50 for goblins) and are biologically cruel, and even after a lifetime of helping others a goblin's empathy attribute will only be below average compared to other races. One of the recent updates allows individual personality and personal values change in response to events but the change can be for better or worse, there's no way to control it as far as I can tell.

None of this is to say it's not a fun game, I've spent thousands of hours playing it and editing raws to make my own races, civilizations, languages, powers, and other stuff.

 No.19916

>>19901 >>19899 >>19898
poignant as it is, DF capitalism suffers from way, way worse problems than IRL capitalism, as insane as that sounds to say.

 No.19921

this game gets boring after the first 30 minutes, it's a massive grinder and you can only build so much in your fortress before some wacky RNG thing fucks everything up
and no, it's not historical materialist because the world is entirely deterministic and based on idealistic RPG stats. nothing you listed has anything to do with historical materialism

 No.19933

>>19921
>it's not historical materialist because the world is entirely deterministic
A consistent materialist worldview must be deterministic though.
>based on idealistic RPG stats
Fair enough.

>nothing OP listed has anything to do with historical materialism

Through simulating certain things, dwarffortress is less metaphysical and more dialectical than other rpgs. These systems also lend themselves to create a history driven by the simulated material reality, for example environment, minerals and hostile entities. Megabeasts shouldn't be seen as "le great men", but rather a force of nature in a fantasy world.

 No.19936

>>19933
The world isn't just deterministic, it's fixed in place: goblins will always be evil, dwarves will always have a monarchy, elf civilizations will never leave the forest. There are no class conflicts or antagonisms to drive change, only conflicts between civilizations. Even the research and discovery system is fairly barebones at the moment so civilizations are effectively static throughout history, but Toady plans to expand it at some point. Maybe he'll make civilizations dynamic at some point far into the future.

>>19921
Toady's goal is to make a fantasy world simulator more than a proper game, but I still have fun with it. Getting all the industries running smoothly and ensuring every dorf accomplishes its life goal in an evil reanimating glacier brings its own sort of enjoyment.

 No.19973

>>19933
>A consistent materialist worldview must be deterministic though.
what? you're just saying shit

 No.19976

>>19973
See the https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1883/don/ch07c.htm and the section on chance and necessity.
>Hegel came forward with the hitherto quite unheard-of propositions that the accidental has a cause because it is accidental, and just as much also has no cause because it is accidental; that the accidental is necessary, that necessity determines itself as chance, and, on the other hand, this chance is rather absolute necessity. (Logik, II, Book III, 2: Reality.)
Marx condemns both the metaphysical distinction between chance and necessity and the denial of chance through the determinism of french materialism, instead refering to the hegelian conception of chance. These are the relevant passages from my German copy:
>Das Zufällige bietet daher die zwei Seiten dar; erstens insofern es die Möglichkeit unmittelbar an ihm oder was dasselbe ist, insofern sie in ihm aufgehoben ist, ist es nicht Gesetztseyn noch vermittelt, sondern unmittelbare Wirklichkeit; es hat keinen Grund. - Weil auch dem Möglichen diese unmittelbare Wirklichkeit zukommt, so es so sehr als das Wirkliche bestimmt als zufällig, und ebenfalls ein Grundloses.
>Das Zufällige ist aber zweitens das Wirkliche als nur Mögliches oder als ein Gesetztseyn; so auch das Mögliche ist als formelles An-sich-seyn nur Gesetztseyn. Somit ist beides nicht an und für sich selbst, sondern seine Warhafte Reflexion-in-sich in einem Andern, oder es hat einen Grund.
>Das Zufällige hat also darum keinen Grund, weil es zufällig ist; und ebenso hat es einen Grund, dar weil es zufällig ist.
In short, chance is something immediate and without cause, yet it refers to its truth only through another, that is content of reality. Therefore, despite the necessity of chance in science, reality in itself is deterministic.

 No.19977

>>19894
sounds like he correctly simulated capitalism

 No.19978

>>19976
this has absolutely nothing to do with determinism

 No.19980

>>19933
> Megabeasts shouldn't be seen as "le great men", but rather a force of nature in a fantasy world.
megabeasts really are the climate change of dwarf fortress. they eventually kill everyone off if you run the sim long enough

 No.19981

>>19978
>t. cannot read
Marx ridiculed the use of the determinism in the natural sciences, but implicitly acknowledged it in parts of philosophy.

To clarify some things:
Accusing a game of being unrealistic because of determinism implies, that the game cannot develop from its possibly arbitrary foundation according to laws that mimic those of reality. I assert that from the position of the game, that creates the appearance of its own reality, chance need not be injected through prngs, in cases where the game is able to approximate the richness of all of its possibilities.
Dwarffortress is not "entirely deterministic" when it has many random checks, yet to accuse it of reductionism because of those that are deterministic seems illogical to me.

 No.19985

>>19894
The same thing happened with Black Desert. They had to make capitalism impossible because otherwise the economy would be immediately and irrevocably fucked from pretty much the outset.

 No.20252

File: 1658031010052.jpg (81.36 KB, 640x476, 1607622225089.jpg)

>start new fortress after reading this thread
>"wew I can't wait to see what wacky fun happens this time"
>boring but peaceful start
>clothier comes in migrant wave with strange mood
>has a history of anger problems
>send her to the mine to keep her away from everyone else
>doesn't work
>see assaults a child and slices their arm open
>right outside the barracks
>militia is too busy "training" in the commander's bedroom to do anything about the attempted child murder
>a jeweler rescues the child by beating the clothier to death bare-handed
>check in on the child
>she is sad and is heavily traumatized by witnessing a brutal murder
>have craftsdwarf make toy for her
>she still is sad
pic rel is me realizing the system has failed

>>19921
>this game gets boring after the first 30 minutes
nah
>before some wacky RNG thing fucks everything up
the game is so damn complex that it gives you all the tools and options (world gen/mods) to make that shit completely manageable. Plus that's kind of the point of the simulation, always something you won't expect to happen happens.

 No.20259

Apparently cats used to die of alcohol poisoning because their paws had no set limit to how much alcohol they could absorb, do they'd walk through puddles of alcohol, soak them up, then drink them all when they cleaned themselves, dying instantly

that's pretty funny

 No.20260

>>20259
Non-dwarf visitors and residents still regularly die of alcohol poisoning if you have a tavern keeper, as they'll keep handing them drinks until they fall unconscious.
Another unrelated but entertaining feature is if you conquer a vault in fort mode, the sapient residents become part of your civilization and can migrate to your fort, so you can get migration waves with 9 dwarves and 1 unspeakable horror made of flame that sets everything it touches on fire. Intelligent necromancer experiments can also join your civilization, so a supernatural abomination that secretes toxic gas may end up as your mayor.

 No.23335

File: 1665545716275.png (116.81 KB, 1602x1227, ClipboardImage.png)

>fortress reaches 150 pop with ~70 mil, most in steel plate
>buy out all the shit i want from traders for at most a couple barrels of prepared food (legendary chefs)
>bustling library with ton of scholars
>artifacts start dissapearing
>fucking scholars man
>random scholar starts a brawl, probably drank too much
>massive brawl
>dwarves start joining in
>massive loyalty cascade that draws in every dwarf that sees it
>archers join in and swiss cheese everyone and themselves with steel bolts
>only like 20 military left
>fucking scholars still stealing artifacts
>go pol pot mode on scholars
>all visitors dead, most dorfs dead, hallways literally wall to wall with bodies
>giant migrant wave arrives to this
picrel

 No.24119

Dwarf Fortress is finally gonna release on steam.
Thots? Worries? Hopes?

I think it will be awesome and filter soo many ppl.

 No.24120

>>24119
Why not release the source code instead?

 No.24121

>>24120
Because the only reason the steam release exists is thanks to america's dogshit healthcare system.

 No.24122

>>24121
Please tell me more, I am not familiar with the circumstances.

 No.24123

>>24122
From what I remember, one of the brothers got cancer which resulted in a lot of money to get surgery and such. The other realized he was likely to get cancer as well and wanted to have enough in savings if the worse case scenario ever happened.

 No.24124

>>24122
NTA but it's probably something along the line of "creator fall sick and have to make a profit out of his project ASAP to get treatment.

 No.24125

>>19980
usually it goes the other way around, megabeasts gradually die off to giant armies if you just let the world simulate. That is why there is more megabeasts at earlier dates than later ones.

 No.24126

>>19916
well yeah because Toady didn't code the dorfs to unionize or anything. labor revolting has always functioned as a check on bourgeois insanity at least to some degree. you can only push real humans so far, unlike simulated dorfs…

 No.24132

>>24120
pretty sure cause its horrible
not 100% sure but I think the brothers agreed that should they drop dead it will be released


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