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 No.19851[Last 50 Posts]

Is Dwarf Fortress the most Historical Materialist game of all time?

>Simulates thousands of years of history

>Simulates individual lives
>Simulates entire economies
>Simulates private property, families, cities, states
>does not privilege the player with any kind of protagonism. You are simply an entity in a larger civilization
>any entity can be wiped out at any given moment and replaced with a similar one.
>deep physics simluation that includes erosion, precipitation, and the formation of continents
>can instantaneously generate an entire encyclopedia of interconnected occurences spanning thousands of years
>simulates marriage, divorce, courtship, cheating, betrayal, coups, assassinations, persecutions, and purges


>>Simulates entire economies
It's only bartering tho. The dev tried to simulate a capitalist economy, but the resulting coin placement bugs, chronic unemployment, fortress gentrification and periodic economic crises made the game near unplayable.


>The dev tried to simulate a capitalist economy, but the resulting coin placement bugs, chronic unemployment, fortress gentrification and periodic economic crises made the game near unplayable.


Lol the old wiki page even talks about how to set room rents to zero.

Literally Dwarf Fortress rent control.


>simulate capitalism.
>fort end up becoming a shack where most live in poverty and an minority lives in weath while most lives in slums while crisis destroy everything.
what Armok mean by this…


Most populations aside from historical figures (government positions, famous warriors, monsters, stuff like that) are abstracted and don't exist until the player makes a fort or visits those locations in adventure mode.
>historical materialism
Not really, civilizations themselves are static throughout history. Civilization-level values and government positions are predetermined at start (although human values are randomized) and unable to change, so you'll never end up with dwarven civilizations with conflicting values, and intra-civilizational conflicts, like wars of succession, rebellion, or new forms of govenment, are completely impossible. Plus the sentient races have varying levels of biological determinism, with goblins being the most extreme example. Goblins are physically incapable of being altruistic (on the scale of 1-100 for that personality facet, it caps at 50 for goblins) and are biologically cruel, and even after a lifetime of helping others a goblin's empathy attribute will only be below average compared to other races. One of the recent updates allows individual personality and personal values change in response to events but the change can be for better or worse, there's no way to control it as far as I can tell.

None of this is to say it's not a fun game, I've spent thousands of hours playing it and editing raws to make my own races, civilizations, languages, powers, and other stuff.


>>19901 >>19899 >>19898
poignant as it is, DF capitalism suffers from way, way worse problems than IRL capitalism, as insane as that sounds to say.


this game gets boring after the first 30 minutes, it's a massive grinder and you can only build so much in your fortress before some wacky RNG thing fucks everything up
and no, it's not historical materialist because the world is entirely deterministic and based on idealistic RPG stats. nothing you listed has anything to do with historical materialism


>it's not historical materialist because the world is entirely deterministic
A consistent materialist worldview must be deterministic though.
>based on idealistic RPG stats
Fair enough.

>nothing OP listed has anything to do with historical materialism

Through simulating certain things, dwarffortress is less metaphysical and more dialectical than other rpgs. These systems also lend themselves to create a history driven by the simulated material reality, for example environment, minerals and hostile entities. Megabeasts shouldn't be seen as "le great men", but rather a force of nature in a fantasy world.


The world isn't just deterministic, it's fixed in place: goblins will always be evil, dwarves will always have a monarchy, elf civilizations will never leave the forest. There are no class conflicts or antagonisms to drive change, only conflicts between civilizations. Even the research and discovery system is fairly barebones at the moment so civilizations are effectively static throughout history, but Toady plans to expand it at some point. Maybe he'll make civilizations dynamic at some point far into the future.

Toady's goal is to make a fantasy world simulator more than a proper game, but I still have fun with it. Getting all the industries running smoothly and ensuring every dorf accomplishes its life goal in an evil reanimating glacier brings its own sort of enjoyment.


>A consistent materialist worldview must be deterministic though.
what? you're just saying shit


See the https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1883/don/ch07c.htm and the section on chance and necessity.
>Hegel came forward with the hitherto quite unheard-of propositions that the accidental has a cause because it is accidental, and just as much also has no cause because it is accidental; that the accidental is necessary, that necessity determines itself as chance, and, on the other hand, this chance is rather absolute necessity. (Logik, II, Book III, 2: Reality.)
Marx condemns both the metaphysical distinction between chance and necessity and the denial of chance through the determinism of french materialism, instead refering to the hegelian conception of chance. These are the relevant passages from my German copy:
>Das Zufällige bietet daher die zwei Seiten dar; erstens insofern es die Möglichkeit unmittelbar an ihm oder was dasselbe ist, insofern sie in ihm aufgehoben ist, ist es nicht Gesetztseyn noch vermittelt, sondern unmittelbare Wirklichkeit; es hat keinen Grund. - Weil auch dem Möglichen diese unmittelbare Wirklichkeit zukommt, so es so sehr als das Wirkliche bestimmt als zufällig, und ebenfalls ein Grundloses.
>Das Zufällige ist aber zweitens das Wirkliche als nur Mögliches oder als ein Gesetztseyn; so auch das Mögliche ist als formelles An-sich-seyn nur Gesetztseyn. Somit ist beides nicht an und für sich selbst, sondern seine Warhafte Reflexion-in-sich in einem Andern, oder es hat einen Grund.
>Das Zufällige hat also darum keinen Grund, weil es zufällig ist; und ebenso hat es einen Grund, dar weil es zufällig ist.
In short, chance is something immediate and without cause, yet it refers to its truth only through another, that is content of reality. Therefore, despite the necessity of chance in science, reality in itself is deterministic.


sounds like he correctly simulated capitalism


this has absolutely nothing to do with determinism


> Megabeasts shouldn't be seen as "le great men", but rather a force of nature in a fantasy world.
megabeasts really are the climate change of dwarf fortress. they eventually kill everyone off if you run the sim long enough


>t. cannot read
Marx ridiculed the use of the determinism in the natural sciences, but implicitly acknowledged it in parts of philosophy.

To clarify some things:
Accusing a game of being unrealistic because of determinism implies, that the game cannot develop from its possibly arbitrary foundation according to laws that mimic those of reality. I assert that from the position of the game, that creates the appearance of its own reality, chance need not be injected through prngs, in cases where the game is able to approximate the richness of all of its possibilities.
Dwarffortress is not "entirely deterministic" when it has many random checks, yet to accuse it of reductionism because of those that are deterministic seems illogical to me.


The same thing happened with Black Desert. They had to make capitalism impossible because otherwise the economy would be immediately and irrevocably fucked from pretty much the outset.


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>start new fortress after reading this thread
>"wew I can't wait to see what wacky fun happens this time"
>boring but peaceful start
>clothier comes in migrant wave with strange mood
>has a history of anger problems
>send her to the mine to keep her away from everyone else
>doesn't work
>see assaults a child and slices their arm open
>right outside the barracks
>militia is too busy "training" in the commander's bedroom to do anything about the attempted child murder
>a jeweler rescues the child by beating the clothier to death bare-handed
>check in on the child
>she is sad and is heavily traumatized by witnessing a brutal murder
>have craftsdwarf make toy for her
>she still is sad
pic rel is me realizing the system has failed

>this game gets boring after the first 30 minutes
>before some wacky RNG thing fucks everything up
the game is so damn complex that it gives you all the tools and options (world gen/mods) to make that shit completely manageable. Plus that's kind of the point of the simulation, always something you won't expect to happen happens.


Apparently cats used to die of alcohol poisoning because their paws had no set limit to how much alcohol they could absorb, do they'd walk through puddles of alcohol, soak them up, then drink them all when they cleaned themselves, dying instantly

that's pretty funny


Non-dwarf visitors and residents still regularly die of alcohol poisoning if you have a tavern keeper, as they'll keep handing them drinks until they fall unconscious.
Another unrelated but entertaining feature is if you conquer a vault in fort mode, the sapient residents become part of your civilization and can migrate to your fort, so you can get migration waves with 9 dwarves and 1 unspeakable horror made of flame that sets everything it touches on fire. Intelligent necromancer experiments can also join your civilization, so a supernatural abomination that secretes toxic gas may end up as your mayor.


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>fortress reaches 150 pop with ~70 mil, most in steel plate
>buy out all the shit i want from traders for at most a couple barrels of prepared food (legendary chefs)
>bustling library with ton of scholars
>artifacts start dissapearing
>fucking scholars man
>random scholar starts a brawl, probably drank too much
>massive brawl
>dwarves start joining in
>massive loyalty cascade that draws in every dwarf that sees it
>archers join in and swiss cheese everyone and themselves with steel bolts
>only like 20 military left
>fucking scholars still stealing artifacts
>go pol pot mode on scholars
>all visitors dead, most dorfs dead, hallways literally wall to wall with bodies
>giant migrant wave arrives to this


Dwarf Fortress is finally gonna release on steam.
Thots? Worries? Hopes?

I think it will be awesome and filter soo many ppl.


Why not release the source code instead?


Because the only reason the steam release exists is thanks to america's dogshit healthcare system.


Please tell me more, I am not familiar with the circumstances.


From what I remember, one of the brothers got cancer which resulted in a lot of money to get surgery and such. The other realized he was likely to get cancer as well and wanted to have enough in savings if the worse case scenario ever happened.


NTA but it's probably something along the line of "creator fall sick and have to make a profit out of his project ASAP to get treatment.


usually it goes the other way around, megabeasts gradually die off to giant armies if you just let the world simulate. That is why there is more megabeasts at earlier dates than later ones.


well yeah because Toady didn't code the dorfs to unionize or anything. labor revolting has always functioned as a check on bourgeois insanity at least to some degree. you can only push real humans so far, unlike simulated dorfs…


pretty sure cause its horrible
not 100% sure but I think the brothers agreed that should they drop dead it will be released


Can't believe the steam version is finally coming out in 3 days.


>pretty sure cause its horrible
Yeah the source code has to be very cruddy, given that it's been in development since 2002. But if they open-sourced it there would probably be a community effort to refactor the code and give it a proper documentation.

I hope they open the code, i want a scifi version in the style of how alpha centaury was a scifi version of CIV. You'd start out with the crew of a spaceship that has landed on a new planet. And the procedural world generation at the beginning of the game would be the terraforming process.


so is the new steam version with graphixx any good ? is the UI functional ?


If you're new to DF then the new UI and mouse controls will be a godsend for you. If you're someone whose been playing since forever you'll be irritated by a lot of the changes. Overall, I'd say it's worth it especially if you haven't played DF before and got scared off by the ascii and keyboard only UI interaction.


Apparently it's missing some features the original had. Hopefully, they'll be restored in future patches.


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how do i play this game?
i bought it because i always got interested in it but it seemed complicated to even install, so i thought the Steam version would be more approachable but i'm at loss even after playing the tutorial
my dwarves won't dig down the second level and they won't claim any rooms

also how do i make a socialist death cult?

i was trying to make a underground inverse pyramid but my brain has gotten too smooth to try and understand all the mechanics by reading a guide.


>i'm at loss even after playing the tutorial
Not sure what the tutorial is like, but as someone whose played the game for awhile I'd recommend reading the quickstart guide on the wiki (https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Quickstart_guide). It's slightly outdated until they start making pages for the current version but starting out is mostly the same. I was going to write up what to do, but that guide explains what I was trying to type far better.


they used to…


Only 4 years into my new fort and ~20 monster hunters have died to the local tribe of bat people in the caverns below, yet they still keep on coming


Any of you guys play The Long Night mod?


Nah, but I wanted to try it out at least once for a long time. I'll try to check it out this week or so if I have the time to spare


I trained a militia to take on the birds who were stealing from my refuse stockpile. the popup was annoying me.
My best dwarf shot one in the stomach, causing it to vomit as it fell to the ground. Because it was winter, the vomit froze and domed my dorf.
RIP Reg.


I let those guys act as free security from forgotten beasts. That and the other critters down there.


That was also my original plan but these steel clad hardy warriors keep getting destroyed by a bunch of half naked cave dwellers with fungiwood spears


picked up the steam version and god it feels even more magical than when I first picked up minecraft in 2013


Ok the problem could stem from them getting absolutely shitfaced in my tavern before they decide to go down into the caverns, but if I remember it correctly drunkeness only raises the chance of them starting brawls


Unless they have good combat skills and are able to properly use their equipment they'll get bodied in a fight, especially if there are multiple opponents. If they're wearing a full set of armor without a good armor user skill and/or high endurance they'll get winded before the fight even starts


I know, but I was under the impression that these self proclaimed monster hunters had more to show than some shiny armor


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oh fuck my fort has incels


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Why would you try to simulate capitalism if the game is a medieval fantasy? They should have a feudal economy. But that is pretty cool and IIRC there was an update that included class struggle elements so the possibility of transitioning from feudalism to capitalism (and/or socialism) would definitely be possible with the base the game currently has. Given that the whole thing centers around production and building (potentially) large scale industry and complex supply chains, the transition to capitalism would actually make perfect sense and be quite historically materialist, but one can imagine there would be a lot of kinks to work out.

All that said, the description given sounds like capitalism doing what capitalism does, just without (A) proper management measures to help contain the instability at least a little and (B) ways of transitioning into and out of that economy (perhaps a system relating to class consciousness). However, the development of capitalism and its destructive tendencies being a possible outcome (i.e. a fail state) rather than simply the default status quo is entirely in the spirit of Dorf Fort and actually sounds rather FUN.


This guy is supposed to be good.

Bump so you see it since your thread got merged.


I don't think its particularly viable because when you get down to the brass tacks of the game, the basic level of technology stays the same mostly throughout - from the beginning to the end of the world humans are on a bronze/iron age, dwarves have steel and can rarely work on adamantine, elves live in communal treehouses, goblins are lead by demons, and kobolds never establish real civilization. There isn't civilizational progression in a real sense beyond the stories, culture, legends, and artifacts the civilizations generate.


How tf do I deal with werebeasts? Just had a fort taken down by an infestation of wereelephants



there is one metal randomly chosen at worldgen to be effective against werebeasts, you gotta find it and use it. Otherewise, try for dismemberment and decapitation, they are too tough otherwise.


Can also increase mineral occurrence in general.


lock up and wait it out. the werecunts will eventually change back to their original forms and leave



I gotta say, I love the newfound enthusiasm the internet has for Dorf Fortress with the new steam release.
I'm looking forward to mod makers getting strange moods.
>This is a furry mod. All craftsdwarfship is of the highest quality. It is encrusted with gems and coal. It menaces with spikes of fur.


want to see the Masterwork mod in the Steam version if it's possible.


A mod that would allow beast race civilizations to spawn would be absolutely game changing.


You can edit the raws pretty easily and adding new civilizations is surprisingly easy, I've made a few attempts at beast people civs before if you're interested. I have some auto-generated languages to go along with them as well, but I never bothered proofreading to see if there are any goofy inclusions. The only thing to keep in mind is any flying race will completely break when they visit your fort and just hover at the edge of the map, which fucks up caravans. Also, having too many different civ trade caravans in a season can really mess things up in weird ways.


>>24916 (me)
That said, the raws alone are pretty limited in what they can do and if you want to do things like:
>wild beast people entering the map and petitioning for residence (or existing subterranean tribes doing the same) or having some kind of diplomacy system
>flying civs having functional trade caravans
>egg-laying and caste morphology (e.g. ant people) working properly
>aquatic civs functioning at all
you'll need to use lua scripting through dfhack, but I'm not sure it's compatible with the steam release yet. Also if you get too crazy with civs you can really fuck up your other forts. This is true in vanilla as well. If you locate a vault in adventure mode you can conquer it pretty easily in fort mode, making the sapient angels part of your civ and they can visit your fort. They're randomly generated and some of them are made of flame or steam, causing anything and anyone near them to combust.


>I don't think its particularly viable because when you get down to the brass tacks of the game, the basic level of technology stays the same mostly throughout
I'm sure they plan to add mechanics relating to tech levels and tech trees. A whole lot of production mechanics are very placeholder right now. I mean, you get the same amount of leather from the skin of a rat or an elephant. But that's not actually as important as it might seem. The development of capitalism is less about the development of new technology and more about the adoption of machine production at societal scales. Getting mountain fortresses or other settlements up and running with heavy industry creates a situation where political-economic power can shift away from the nobility toward whoever controls the manufacturing.

The most true-to-life version would be merchants getting rich from trade caravans using their money to buy property in fortresses as an investment and from there starting to extract surplus to reinvest for capital accumulation (purchasing more territory, putting resources into settling new territory, building more workshops, etc). The existing Villains system is pretty opaque but could probably handle this sort of thing. You would just need to have a clear system for property and a way for the emergent porkydwarf to control it (by using their wealth to pay for their own militias). You could also have this emerge directly within fortress mode. A dwarf who has enough personal wealth could use it to outfit a militia of their own and then use that to take over a stockpile or a workshop, for example. Strange Moods could be used as a basis for something like "entrepreneurial spirit" that causes a dwarf to put effort into developing the resources to buy territory or means of production, thus creating private property.

But sure, it would be cooler and more interesting to have this also work with some kind of tech tree system. Something kind of like that already exists where the game tracks what lore the different civilizations know. It also tracks which animals a civilization has experience domesticating. A regular tech tree with some abstract "research" value being applied an gradually unlocking new things is probably too simple for Dwarf Fortress. I imagine whatever they eventually add in that regard is going to be fairly sophisticated (at least at the level of Fortress Mode) and be tied to the details of what you're actually doing in the game.

>There isn't civilizational progression in a real sense beyond the stories, culture, legends, and artifacts the civilizations generate.

That's not really true. The fundamental abilities of the civilizations don't change, but they do expand and form larger networks that trade and develop a greater sophistication.


>How Dwarf Fortress Abandoned Capitalism & Embraced Communism
holy based
I always knew dwarfs were commies


I think it's time to retire my fortress, the yearly agitated giant crow migrations are a toll on my mental health


wait lol they tried to make money inherently valueless as if it was fiat (it just appears). The solution to the bugs is then simple, you need a gold based commoditiy to act as the universal equivalent which can be mined.

smh should have read capital before trying to do a ltv


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>replacing temporary bridge with drawbridge
>set the floor tiles for removal
>set their priority orders so they should be done sequentially from one side to the other
>Legendary Miner dwarf is on the job
>she gets to the middle of the bridge and removes the end floor tile from one side
>so far so good
>ignores the priority orders to remove the tile she's standing on next
>doesn't move off the tile
>just turns around and removes the only tile keeping her current tile in the air
>check her info
>scatterbrained and poor spatial sense
bravo Toady


Now that multithreading has been partly implemented, do you think the whole game could be made to run that way?


With Putnam working on the game now, it's likelier than it was before but I'm not certain she could do it for the entire game.


DF is the most overrated shit I've ever played.


It's not really a game.
It's a simulator for retarded dorfs to make stories with.
For instance, I had a fortress and decided to spruce it up with some statues.
Every single statue that was made was of a spider, and every single statue was made by one dorf.
I thought, alright, this dorf loves spiders, maybe I could theme my fort around it and tame some spiders or make a spider pit to throw elves in.
Turns out, the dorf fucking despised spiders, and was channeling her hatred into her art.

I then decided to promote her as the head hammerdorf of my most prestigious squad and sent her around the caverns slaughtering spiders.

The fun of the game doesn't reveal itself, you have to look for it and read


Is it highly rated? I know there was a lot of hype for the steam release but no one's ever pretended it was a masterpiece (or even good). I've been playing on and off since v0.31 and the sentiment was always that it was a free, goofy, janky simulation game that's fun. I don't know if the outlook and composition of the playerbase has changed since it's become a product where players are now customers demanding satisfaction, but you can still play it for free.


>It's not really a game
The classic DF fan copout argument. You can't criticize DF's shortcomings as a videogame, because it isn't actually a videogame! Except it is, and its shortcomings are glaring.

Each new fortress needs the same unfun gameplay loop to get going: make a million stockpiles; set up your workshops; set traps; manage your dwarve's labors (which is tedious af even with Therapist); make a gazillion bedrooms; set your seeds to brewing only; etc. etc. Once you get going, "winning" is actually easy: once your fortress is self-sustaining, build a drawbridge and almost never open it. DF is such a brilliant game that drawbridges are indescrutible!

Military and combat are absolute dogshit to handle. The military is so obtuse and complex to wrangle that it feels like a job trying to get shit to work. In fact, DF's shit UI ruins more than just the military. Entire classes can be taught showing how DF fails at UI at all fronts and how this results in an unfun and miserable experience for those without rose-tinted glasses. And this criticism goes for both the classic and Steam versions.

DF is the epitome of wide but shallow. The dev just thew a hodgepodge of shit into spaghetti code and people think it's so "deep" because there are a million different items and the world is procedurally generated. But procdeural generation wasn't new when DF was made, and DF's "emergent storytelling" merely comprises some simple interaction of the game's spaghetti code with one of the million of lol so randumb items. For instance, the story you just told is actually common; as the wiki explains: "Statues will often depict creatures that the artisan likes or loathes, or other dwarves surrounded by the creatures they like or loathe." (https://www.dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Statue)

If I want to play a fun videogame, then DF isn't as me because, as you even admitted, it's not a good game. And if I want to immerse myself in a deep rich fantasy story, well I'll just READ a book and not bother with DF's unfun autism.

>Is it highly rated
Go to any generic videogame forum and people will unquesitonably bleat in unison that "OMG DWARF FORTRESS IS DA BEST GAME EVA" despite the fact that most people haven't even bother to play it for a considerable amount of time. It's overrated as fuck

>the sentiment was always that it was a free, goofy, janky simulation game that's fun

Even that take is overrating DF. DF is FULL of unfun and dull mechanics that delusional people trick themselves into thinking are fun because said people don't want to admit that the 100+ hours they invested into learning the game has all been for naught.


omg why does this game not cater to my tastes
just move on


>hurr how dare you have a strong opinion about something!
I'm explaining why DF is an objectively overrated game. I'm sick and tired of people praising this shitheap when it's just not good. It's an Emperor's New Clothes situation.


lol /v/ermin moment


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This fucking board is just /v/ but even more autistic, populated almost entirely by contrarian faggots and people who rant about videogames more than they actually play them. The only upside of this board as it is currently is that at least you have decency to not bring up retarded culture war bullshit and actually try to be argumentative unlike /v/ermin, I give you that.


>I'll just READ a book and not bother with DF's unfun autism.


>actually try to be argumentative
and fail.
/games/ is occupied by the most toxic people on leftypol. I don't even know what is being attempted at belittling every post, is it to increase activity and bump the thread or is it to stroke an ego that they can't stroke on the main /leftypol/ board due to their immense deficiency in all aspects of their life?


Why the fuck are you guys getting salty in a thread about dorf fortress god damn


some can't resist responding to shitposters


>nooo why does playing the meta in an unfinished game get so hecking repetitive?1?1?1?1?


This is why simulation games suck: they're a pointless chore
You can shit on first person shooters or whatever, but at least they provide some mindless fun, which is what video games are ultimately for


>but at least they provide some mindless fun, which is what video games are ultimately for

Based AF take. I would refine your statement that videogames are for mentally-stimulating fun that's a step above just sitting on your ass watching TV, but you are fundamentally correct. If I want to grind at something, I practice guitar or a sport. If I want to challenge my mind, I'll study math. If I want to be creative, I'll try to write music. If I want to immerse myself in a good story, I open a book or watch a film.

Videogames are great for that intermittent state for when I don't have the energy to do difficult/creative tasks but I want something more stimulating than staring at the TV. Personally, team fortress 2 fills that niche for me, and I can see how other first-person shooters satisfy that as well. But games like DF are just an exercise in extreme autism with little to no payoff.


>stirner poster
>normative takes about what video games are "for"
They're "for" people who want to play them, whatever the reason.


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newest version (0.50) kinda freaks me out. mouse use is a complete non-starter for me. would love to try it out and see all the changes but its unplayable as of now. 0.47 for lyfe!




I got used to it but I fucking hate how they gutted the traditional keyboard shortcuts. A lot of things take longer than they used to.


Why does this happen every single time they try to simulate capitalism?


Because this is what happens with Capitalism in the Real world. Its just when you do it in games that it is more in your face about it than in real life.


they need to try a capitalism patch again, after reading capital


They're finally working on adventure mode.


idealist rpg stats. wouldn't that be like the laws of nature?


They were working on it from the start, it just has more for them to do to give it a GUI, and it's clearly a lower priority than Fortress mode (and Legends has minimal UI).

The capitalism patch was pretty accurate from what I understand. The problem is that the lack of mitigating effects like conflict between nobles and capitalism or the ability of the player to levy taxes and whatnot. The forts essentially would always end up doing runaway ancapistan.


I think the capitalist mode fails in the game because it doesn't resolve itself through revolution, I haven't played it so maybe I'm wrong.


Yeah it's the same basic issue where there are more complicated behaviors you have to code into the character AI. The closest you'd get with the current system is for morale to get so low that it causes poor dorfs to go berserk, but they don't really have a system for organizing collectively. There are guilds that form spontaneously but I'm guessing that system is too mechanically abstracted to adapt well to that kind of purpose. Toady working on the plots/villains system is probably more useful to including those kinds of mechanics. The idea there is having people with plans and gathering resources and allies to make it happen. You could probably rework that to account for revolutionary figures or just political movements in general.

As far as the economic mechanics of capitalism go, there wasn't really a problem there probably. What was missing were "external" factors that would act as a check or a proper "end state."


In adventure mode you can get godlike strength and endurance by putting a weasel in a headlock for 10 hours and in fort mode a group of 5 experienced farmers can support a fort of 200 dorfs and still have a huge surplus of food, it's definitely not meant to be an accurate simulation. The world can't really evolve either (unless that evolution means getting destroyed by necromancers), dwarf civilizations will always value craftsmanship and goblin civilizations will always be evil baby kidnappers (and goblins themselves are genetically cruel bastards).


>it's definitely not meant to be an accurate simulation.
I think that's more of an issue with feature completeness. This is mostly an issue of balancing the ratios of inputs and outputs, which hasn't been done at all at this point (1 unit of rock/wood to build a door, a cup, a chair, a staircase, etc).
>The world can't really evolve either
IIRC tech trees are an intended feature eventually.
>dwarf civilizations will always value craftsmanship and goblin civilizations will always be evil baby kidnappers
There's some variation here already, probably more is intended. The game does operate on a pretty static idea of history for now though, where cultures and polities just are the way they are. You'd need to explicitly include mechanics to allow for that to change, which would probably be pretty hard given the complexity of the features. Not that it's impossible or not going to happen, but it would take a while to make that work.

There's a degree of "cultural exchange" already though, in the sense that literature can be transfered between settlements and copied. Toady wants to make the books able to actually impart knowledge that affects the mechancis, so part of the plan would include things like Goblins being able to read Dwarf books about crafting and pick up skills or attitudes.


Ermmm so reddit told me this is the hardest game of all time but so far i only lost once and overall it just feels boring
And yes im playing the classic non steam version
What am I missing?


you ain't dug deep enough yet


I think when people say 'hardest' what they mean is 'highest barrier to entry'


It's not hard, just inaccessible. You can cloister up and wait out any problem until you've trained up 100 legendary fighters in full masterwork steel ready to deal with it, but it's more fun to take risks and set limitations on yourself. Dig deep, set up in evil biomes or near necromancer towers, start wars with everyone, stuff like that. I just like making my dorfs happy by fulfilling their dreams.


The only "hard" thing about Dwarf Fortress was the UI and some of its mechanics being obtuse to understand without reading the wiki.


go play in an undead biome and purposefully dig as deep as possible if you really want to lose over and over.


The dev seem based


>release capitalism update for dorf fort
>it completely ruins everything in the same ways that capitlaism ruins things IRL
>fanbase hates it and sees a demonstration of how the logic of capitalism works
>roll back update so it's a planned economy again
what did he mean by this


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