Undertale is primarily a commentary on the ways people approach media. Genocide route, in that context, is a response to playing through games in the increasingly prevalent mechanical and consumptive way. While there's enough in there to support Toby exalting authorial intent, I think he's noticing trends in the ways people approach games (consumptive and completionist), but hasn't really diagnosed the cause, which is why he condemns the player for playing through genocide (or choosing to see it without playing themselves) as a personal failing rather than getting at things like the culture industry or trends in game design and marketing that encourage that kind of approach. As not a great fan of authorial intent I still see a lot of value in a game (or anything really) having the guts to resist people who only want to engage with it in a boring or distanced way.
54 posts and 17 image replies omitted.>>36214>these players never cared about player agency at all, they just didn't want to be criticized for power fantasies or content consumption.If there as any doubt of this in 2016, it should have entirely vanished by now.
Games really are nothing more than toys to these morons.
Polite sage.
>>36214Spec Ops has some great moments, but the white phosphorus really isnt one of them. I had 0 emotional reaction to it, because I tried like dozen times to get through the section without using it, until I realized the game literally wont let me, so I clicked the war crime button and watched the "wow cant believe you did such a bad thing you bad person" cutscene. It feels cheap because the rest of the game does offer player choices. Like when locals lynch one of your teammates and corner you, you cant walk away, you have to shoot, but you can choose to shoot above their heads, scaring the mob away without hurting anyone. That setpiece utilizes game mechanics and plays with player agency and expectations of the genre far better than the white phosphorus thing did. Or the ending, which was one of the most impactful moments I ever experienced in a video game, when the marine squad comes to rescue you, and as player you have to fight the instinct to shoot them on sight because that is what the game has been training you to do the whole time.
>>36216It's not about player choices or player agency, brainlet. The entire game was a prank on Cawadooty players. The marketing and trailers leading up to release suggested exactly nothing of what will happen.
The entire speech by Konrad is pointed directly at (you), and why you bought this game in the first place. With the final message that Cawadooty players should kill themselves
now.
>he actually shot Konrad>and then got the fade to white endingPathetic.
>>36216You're falling for the same trap these other players did. The white phosphorous scene DOES have a choice, just not a conventional one - you can quit at any time. But you're not going to, because you're here to make yourself feel better, and quitting flies in the face of that.
That's the point of the game, and it's why it waits until Konrad's apartment to spell it out for you - because if you've made it this far, you're the kind of person who will never quit no matter what. It's also why the final choice is designed the way it is - the game is challenging you to prove it wrong by quitting, or prove it right and see how much farther you can take Walker's pointless, insane, self-serving adventure.
There's a reason the white phosphorous scene happens right in the middle of the game. It's not supposed to make you feel guilty - quite the opposite, actually. It's giving you the same excuse that it gives Walker, i.e. that you shouldn't care because you "didn't have a choice," so that you will keep pushing forward until you confront Konrad.
The scene is so much more than "wow, you're a bad person!" It's a turning point that not only pushes you further into Dubai, but gives us the first real look at who Walker is, completely recontextualizing everything he's done up to this point (and us with him).
>>36228The game literally makes you choose between quitting or continuing in the ending.
Regardless, this is still missing the point. Even if there was a "walk away" ending (which would come with a heap of logistical issues), that's not what the game is about. You came here to play the hero, so why would you quit? The game isn't just telling you that quitting is a valid choice - it's telling you that
it's a choice you're never going to make.This is why I said the game is challenging you with Konrad's confrontation. It gives not one, but
two different ways to end the game right then and there - but fully expects you to shoot Konrad. Hence why there are three unique epilogues after shooting Konrad, but none for quitting.
We could argue whether or not quitting actually is a valid choice, or whether a choice not being obvious in-universe makes it any less valid (Undertale also delves into both of these ideas…oh hey, that's right, this is an Undertale thread!). But ultimately this gets away from what The Line is trying to focus on.
>>36236On your first playthrough, you might not notice this billboard. It's on the very first level, long before the white phosphorous drops. That's right - Walker has been hallucinating the entire time, presumably because of whatever nightmare went down in Kabul. He was broken from the start.
The thing is, you won't notice this the first time you arrive in Dubai. And neither do Lugo or Adams. They follow him because their first impression of him is the same as ours - a competent leader under a lot of stress. They don't realize the scale of the problem until it's far too late.
It's when Adams confronts Walker about the radio tower that he realizes just how delusional and selfish his CO is. From that point on, the only thing that keeps Adams around is the promise of suicide by cop.
TL;DR - Walker was more insane than Lugo or Adams realized, and by the time they found out there was no going back.
>>36238Dang. Never noticed that even on any subsequent playthroughs lol.
I get that they don't know he's mental at first but by the time he picks up the broken radio and starts talking into it they must realise something is fucked and when he starts literally just talking to them about stuff that isn't there (like the hanged men) there's no excuse to not just desert.
But whatever, still a good story, though I disapprove of the word of god that it's about COD, it being a criticism of US imperialism in general (with a side serving of video game criticism) makes a lot more sense IMO
>>36239They know
something is wrong with him, but they still have reason to trust him. Sure, he might be talking to ghosts and shooting corpses, but he's also giving them clear objectives that he says will end the nightmare in Dubai, and honestly? If you didn't know anything else about Walker, and been constantly confronted by the insane residents of Dubai for hours on end up to that point, you'd side with Walker, too.
It's only after the radio tower that they realize that Walker was never actually leading them anywhere, and that what was wrong with him was so much worse than just talking to ghosts.
>>36243>Including Ralseinooooooooooooooooooo don't say that it's not true
just because he's not real doesn't mean our relationship isn't real
>>36242You have to recruit them for them to show up in the Castle Town. Otherwise, you don't see them again. It's unclear what happens to them.
>>36243Darkners correspond to Light World objects, yes, but that doesn't make them any less alive in the Dark Worlds. Darkners also appear to have some kind of history outside of the time we interact with them (i.e. King and Queen being a couple, Jevil's rampage, etc.) which suggests that they either have a bad case of Last Thursdayism or they have more personhood than we're giving them credit for.
Of course, if we wanted to, we could follow the "Darkners are only objects because of corresponding items in the Light World" line of thought to its conclusion. If Darkners aren't people because they're in a world below the Light World, what happens to Lightners if there's a world
above the Light World? After all, Spamton wanted to reach "Heaven"…
Also, Chapter 3 and 4 will be shipped without Chapter 5. It's closer than you think.
>>36244The Castle Town fountain supposedly needs to be active to keep the Light and Dark Worlds in balance, since it's the extra fountains in the Card Kingdom and Cyber World that disrupt things.
Unless someone lied to Ralsei, or Ralsei lied to us, we probably don't want to mess with that fountain.
>>36245> just because he's not real doesn't mean our relationship isn't realSame, pic rel
>Darkners correspond to Light World objects, yes, but that doesn't make them any less alive in the Dark Worlds.true
>Also, Chapter 3 and 4 will be shipped without Chapter 5. It's closer than you think.I hope so
>>36255There’s a very interesting one called the Oberon Smog theory, which proposes that the Knight is actually a Darkner based off of Gerson’s hammer, taking on his personality and an anagram of his name because monster funerals feature the deceased’s remains being spread on an object associated with them, with Father Alvin simply being an accomplice. It relies on the “Ralsei is a dead Asriel” theory, though, which is why I’m not completely fond of it, but it’s still very unique.
Another interesting one is the Knight is Papyrus is Gaster — that is to say, all three are the same character (seriously, there’s an insane amount of overlap between Papyrus and Gaster’s character traits). My issue with this one is that it feels like two theories packed into one, and that Gaster (even if Papyrus) has much bigger problems to deal with than the Roaring.
I’m partial to it being Father Alvin because of how much evidence there is and, more importantly, he’s one of the few who have an actual motive. I understand if he’s not the most exciting candidate, but I personally think he would be a more cathartic reveal than someone like Dess Holiday who we don’t really know anything about or Gaster who has bigger fish to fry.
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