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File: 1608525657722.jpg (144.41 KB, 824x1334, start to finish.jpg)

 No.2562[View All]

Thread for discussing ATLA and LoK or rather analyzing both, appreciating the effort of creating the former and shitting on the lazy liberalism of the latter
266 posts and 119 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.


some good takes from Tumblr

> the atla fandom is such a good study of the effectiveness of imperialist propaganda in that so many fans have completely internalized the idea that air nomad culture is hippy dippy weakness that would actually have no real substantive place in the avatarverse, and you can see this in the number of post-finale fics (well written, amazingly intricate, incredibly well plotted fics!) intent on teaching aang a lesson about the futility of pacificism or cutting him down to size after his victory against ozai, driven by a belief that aang somehow had it easy or that his choices were childish and unrealistic. the idea that serious commitment to a buddhist-inspired philosophy could influence a hero’s actions is so far beyond the grasp of so many fans that you can sense their downright anger, even outrage, that such a philosophy was upheld as worth defending! the idea that aang as a hero was making deeply spiritual choices about how to end the war - and thereby upholding his duty as the the spiritual guide to the world - and that he deemed air nomad religious values worth upholding against the might of an imperialist nation, just completely eludes so many people. because it’s not flashy and badass and powerful i guess? idk idk idk but some of y’all are soooooo invested in loving the fire nation and discounting aang/ the air nomads in specific insidious ways and it’s…whew. frustrating, predicable, kinda scary.


> Yeah It’d be great if people in general could learn the difference between being weak and being pacifistic.

> A weak person physically can’t harm anyone. A pacifist can harm you but chooses not to. Aang almost killed Ozai in the Avatar State but he didn’t, not because he was too weak to kill Ozai (he was literally just about to do so) but because he felt it wasn’t the right thing to do.

> Aang isn’t the only one to do this. Zuko could have killed Ozai during the eclipse if he’d aimed his lightning at his father instead of away. Katara did it with Yon Rha where she had the perfect opportunity to kill her mother’s murderer but didn’t.

> Why does Aang get all the flack for doing the same? Because his reasoning was different?

> Some people are a bit too invested in a 12 year old murdering someone.


>why would the fire nation develop faster than any other nation, from a materialist standpoint?
Power, like in the physical sense. They can create fire out of thin air, which means they are able to heat things up more effectively. It's the same kind of benefit as having oil. Other benders can only move things around. Firebenders can create energy. They're insanely OP in that respect, even though fire has other limitations that make up for it in most (small scale contexts). Fire can't be used to build anything, and it just doesn't work underwater (unlike airbending which can make bubbles) or if it's too cold for the bender. It's also dangerous in ways that the others aren't. IMO the show did a great job making the elements balanced in a general sense but also giving them massive strengths and weaknesses that shape the whole society.

>water-bending could easily be used to create powerful water turbines

Problem is this is both unintuitive and inefficient. You need people to continuously power these turbines, when in reality you only set up such a thing at a natural source of water. They might be able to reshape rivers to this end, but just having people run the turbines is the same kind of thing as generating power by people riding bicycles. Also for it to scale at all you need to discover electricity.
>and earthbending has the ability to track and unearth great quantities of ore and coal
Only Toph is shown at first to have the tremorsense abilities, although earthbending obviously makes mining easier. Just because you have the resources doesn't mean you have the technology to work them, though. Prior to the development of ironworking, iron was not seen as particularly useful. It's too hard to work without sufficient heat, and usually full of impurities. Without the ability to metalbend, it's probably just not worth the effort for an earthbending culture to figure out advanced metallurgy since they can just send earthbenders into combat, and their "weapon" is just sitting around everywhere. It's sort of like mining asteroids to us. Sure it's possible in theory and it would be very useful, but the difficulty of it compared to the much easier alternatives means there's little incentive to try it.
>as well as the ability to basically mass-produce housing even pre-industrialy.
Waterbenders can also produce housing in the snow. Earthbenders being able to build things works as an explanation for why they are the largest and most populous nation (and it would help for digging canals for irrigation), but this doesn't get you far if your tech level is still pre-industrial and your economy is mostly subsistence agriculture.
>between all of them I would frankly expect the earth kingdom to be the first to reach the industrial revolution because they could most easily modify the land to create conditions where food could be produced plentifully enough that they could build up a strong division of labor
But why bother dividing labor if you can just keep expanding and finding new land to use and keep building houses perpetually? Based on what we see in the series, most of the land is wild. That means the Earth Kingdoms can just keep growing and following the same economic and political model. Given that they seem to be a bunch of mostly independent kingdoms loosely connected culturally, there's nothing pushing them to adapt to urbanization and a higher population density. The exception is Ba Sing Se, and they are relatively advanced. But they also seem to be fully self-sufficient and not engage in very much trade. As we see when the Gaang first arrives, the concentric rings show the division of labor, but because of the isolation (and perceived safety from the Fire Nation) there's nothing pressuring them to advance. The walls if anything provide a security that means they have less material reason to develop weapons technology. The kind of bureaucratic palace economy they have seems to involve less free trading (actually demonstrated in-show when the Cabbage Merchant has his cart smashed at customs), which also means that it's harder for the merchant class to emerge as a power and drive industrialization.

>not flashy and badass and powerful i guess?
It's definitely not that lol. They go out of their way to make Aang's spirituality flashy and badass and powerful. This author is making it about imperialism which isn't wrong but that's not the whole picture. Aang's views (and most of the show) is very obviously inspired by eastern philosophy and Buddhism, and the primary audience in the west are either actual Christians or at least have their worldview massively shaped by Christian values and philosophy, which is extremely incompatible with the kind of ideas in the show. Most of the audience grew up believing in the importance of cosmic hierarchies and military power. The Fire Nation is BY FAR the most familiar to western (US especially) audiences. And not just with their political structure and the obvious pledge of allegiance gag, but the whole premise of the war. Not just the fact that it's imperialism, but the justification given too - Sozin pitches the war to Roku as a very on the nose combination of manifest destiny and Bush-era nation building. He all but says they're going to "spread freedom." Paraphrasing, he said it's the Fire Nation's destiny to share their greatness with the rest of the world. On a subconscious level, the primary audience of the show has been primed to see the Fire Nation as sympathetic.
> Why does Aang get all the flack for doing the same? Because his reasoning was different?
IDK maybe it has something to do with the fact that Aang actually stuck to his principles from the start and all the others not killing was a choice they made in the moment. Zuko wasn't sure what he was going to do with Ozai and Katara was fully intending to merc Yon Rha. They both decided against it in the middle of a potentially killing blow. Aang was never going to do it, so him pulling back doesn't sUbVeRt ExPeCTaTiOnS and narratively it's kind of blue-balling or something.


I explained why there is focus on killing by Aang in my posts about the Lion Turtle Deus Ex Machina; They specifically focus on his dilemma of violating his principles of pacifism, and then just give him the ability to make a choice with an asspulled new ability, which isn't something uncommon, but still feels like a bit of a cop-out. This is in the same tier as Goku going Super Saiyan against Frieza, except unlike Energy Bending, that was talked about at length over the Namek Arc, while Energy Bending isn't even mentioned until the final couple episodes, thus we get a feeling of a copout >>2756 >>2810 >>2816 >>2817 >>2822

Additionally, his Avatar State against Ozai was an accidental unlock. A literal plot-device rock hit him in his lightning scar… why didn't toph's massage do that when she pounded his entire back with rocks? Plot. Why was the rock specifically in that spot to hit him? Plot. It's a bullshit move for an otherwise awesome scene.

Finally there is a saying; Pacifism is a coward patting themselves on the back.
It's one thing to be against violence or harm and thus seeking other methods, that is being a gentle soul. But outright refusing to fight seriously and be ready to kill because you're against it and refuse to budge is pathetic negligence. Making the hard decisions and dealing with them is the consequence of having power and leadership, and if you don't you are jeopardizing the lives of everyone behind you.


here is a decent video about the ending of avatar


I guess we might see a resurgence of Avatar stuff with the netflix release of the series


> Aang was never going to do it, so him pulling back doesn't sUbVeRt ExPeCTaTiOnS and narratively it's kind of blue-balling or something.
How so?
I actually like the way they did Aang’s ultimate refusal to kill Ozai, it reminded me of Luke’s refusal to kill Vader. Both flew into a blind rage and nearly killed the opponent, however they both realized before the final blow that killing really is a choice and each choose not to. Both Luke and Aang are told to follow a destiny but chose their own instead. I like how it goes down with Aang somewhat more, honestly, since the Avatar State actually DOES mind control people and thus Aang’s refusal to kill had to be strong enough to overpower the combined wills of all avatars that came before him.


Guess we are going to see a resurgence in Avatar.
<Nickelodeon is launching Avatar Studios, a new division to create original content spanning animated series and movies based on the world of Avatar: The Last Airbender and The Legend of Korra, the network announced Wednesday during ViacomCBS' Investor Day presentation. Original creators and executive producers Michael DiMartino and Bryan Konietzko will lead the studio as co-chief creative officers.
<The first project is already lined up: an animated theatrical film set to begin production this year.
Nick must have been seeing those Netflix numbers and realized what they were sitting on.


yeah, you really should /get/out


File: 1628434719041.png (64.42 KB, 858x342, h.png)

>Lily Orchard
isn't that the person who made horsecock fan-fic


I… I don't know… could be the same Username?


>2nd pic
When I watched the first season the second time it became pretty obvious they originally planned Asami to be a twist villain.

>Season 2's initial Civil War plot was an excellent
What I hate most about LoK is the wasted potential. You can see they were starting to get into really rich material that could have surpassed TLA but they moved away from that for some reason (lack of confidence?)
There were all sorts of things they could have done with him but making him a hypocrite was about the dumbest option. Advanced chi blocking would have been a much more interesting direction. They wanted to do a thing about Aang de-bending someone and the unintended consequences, but they should have picked a different plot for that.
>Toph, Lin, Tenzin, etc
Yeah they kept adding characters and not knowing what to do with them and their solution was to add more characters they also didn't know what to do with. Probably one of the strongest examples of losing Aaron Ehasz as the lead writer fucking with their ability to write the story.
>So that's just about it… half a season, 2 villains before they were flanderized at the end of their respective arcs, and 3 wise, stoic, gruff characters who were denigrated to serve Korra by the plot and writers.
It was originally going to just be that first half of the season but during the project Nick asked for more. The reason everything ended up flanderized is the characters weren't conceived with four full seasons in mind.


>could be the same Username?
it links to the same user


LOL… well Lily Orchard did do a lot of MLP vids so I guess he did make that. Still, their Korra video is excellent.


Ok, she still a horsefucker tho


File: 1632262423674.png (1.09 MB, 1280x720, ClipboardImage.png)

What's the materialist explanation for why the Fire Nation attacked and then everything changed?


Eh, not my problem if they pull a Mr.Hands


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>The fire nation did have factories and combustion engines
<conquering army seeking to unite and bring Fire Nation culture to the nations
Fire Nation was starting to become an industrial society and thus began the process of primitive capital accumulation - colonization and imperialism.

As obvious in Korra, Bryke aren't communist (pretty anti-communist liberals actually) but the beauty of materialism is that it’s so self-evidently true that artists often depict it without realizing they are.


>The show doesn’t accurately simulate how real humans would be in every situation
But it does simulate them accurately in important situations and involves or goes into the socio-economic ramifications of
A) having elemental magic
B) fighting a long term conflict
C) an imperialist industrial state


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In the fifth episode of Book Two: Earth of ATLA, named "Avatar Day", Aang gets put on trial for the 'crime' of Avatar Kyoshi - killing Chin the Conqueror - and sits in prison of his own will to try and make peace with this multi-lifetime feud. The episode is a fun one, even if it is a bit fillerish; letting Sokka shine, give Kyoshi badass history and and an interesting idea of Avatar being a force of balance, not necessarily pleasing everyone.

But I digress; I recently had the chance to see episode clips from various animated series I liked, particularly Naruto and ATLA. Rewatching clips from the 4th War arc I listened to Episode 261 of Naruto Shippuden, and Gaara's speech right before the United Shinobi Forces set out to fight.

The speech is honestly excellent, displaying some of the best of Naruto's story-telling, and the final statement of Gaara made me think about something in relation to the Avatar. Gaara, Kazekage or not, is only 17 years old… he has died before, lived a short and traumatic life and only recently begun to live life and not just exist. And yet he is prepared to put his life on the line to ensure the unity of the Alliance. Aang is younger and missed 100 years of imperialist conflict, he is a reincarnating person, but each reincarnation is a unique person and dying means they end up being astral spirits not able to really live life.

Among the ways Aang could have gotten out of 'prison' is to promise his life as a payment in blood for his past life's "crime" BUT only after he beats the Fire Nation.
Given the context of Chin's death this doesn't quite work s I initially thought, but it could have worked in a situation similar to the final battle against the Fire Nation (such as at the Steam Prison) calling for exploited proletarian/peasant Fire Nation people to overthrow their tyrannical leader and that if anyone had personal qualms with the Avatar, he'd face them after the war was ended.
>Fight with me and after this war is finally over, if any of you still hate me, you can have this life of mine.
Of course this isn't the best that it could be, but it would have fit ATLA.


File: 1632336922892.png (81.79 KB, 3000x2000, Fire Nation Sun Empire.png)

The Fire Nation required raw materials for industrial expansion, land for its growing population, and luxury materials for sale in Fire Nation markets.

The showrunners (Bryke) mostly did some worldbuilding and got good talent on this show. When they took the writing helm in Korra it really showed that they needed someone else in that role. The head writer for ATLA, Aaron Ehasz, apparently slipped a /pol/ meme ("magic dirt") into his own show (Dragon Prince), so he's probably not left wing either. IDK who but somebody on the team definitely had some lefty sympathies to a degree though, because the Fire Nation parts of the story have a fair bit of satire against the US (most obviously when Aang goes to the school there and they do burger school shit like the Fire Nation pledge of allegiance). This also mirrors Imperial Japan in the first half of the 20th Century.

>the beauty of materialism is that it’s so self-evidently true that artists often depict it without realizing they are.

Indeed it's pretty self-evident and the show definitely does a lot of homework trying to make the worldbuilding make sense materially, like how waterbenders naturally end up living on ice caps or swamps because they are literally in their element there. People settle in advantageous places, and their societies are structured in a way that accounts for bending.


>magic dirt
what is the /pol/ meme? is there a clip for context in the Dragon Prince show.


File: 1632343872504.png (171.72 KB, 1000x1000, ClipboardImage.png)

It's a somewhat obscure one. Found out about it from somebody posting a stonetoss comic and nobody getting the joke. Basically it's an attempt at satire against liberals who are ok with immigration and assimilation. The rightoids think that libs believe in "magic dirt" i.e. that just by crossing the border and walking on the soil in a new country the immigrants "become" people of that country. Pic related.

Here's the clip from the show where it comes up. I should point out that this scene happens immediately after the characters (illegally) cross the border into the elf country.


File: 1632344276771.jpg (427.36 KB, 1904x1733, magic dirt.jpg)


Also when I saw that I rewound to check and the episode's writer credit is Aaron Ehasz.


Speaking of Dragon Prince, someone did a scientific theory on the reason for this magic dirt https://archive.ph/hGtPX


Doesn't the magic just come from living things? Dirt is full of microbes and fungus and all that stuff.


File: 1632674892729.jpg (Spoiler Image, 369.07 KB, 2250x1650, 1358475 - Avatar_the_Last_….jpg)

I got to admit, that moment at the last episode that Ty Lee said, "The girls and I really bonded in prison." Always sounded weird as a kid and looking over the episode again if gives me lesbian/bisexual vibes. Given Korra this is quite possibly what is being hinted and feels like a well-done subtle indication of such inclinations, rather than hamfistedness.

Also I wondered if Ty Lee taught pressure point attacks to the Kyoshi warriors? Too bad LoK never mentioned them again.


I'm not interested in the ao3 shit fan-fics anon


Oh relax your potatoes anon.


Nah, then stop showing me shit


Stop being a faggot first.


you made the post int first place, so you were the first.


File: 1632690089220.jpg (115.08 KB, 1174x1144, llqmp3.jpg)

TOUCH BROWN BOOBA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
GET FUCKING PREGNANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


M8 you already have a whole 500+ post Korra porn thread in /siberia/


File: 1632692355165.jpg (404.99 KB, 2560x1844, dv6ujjvvo9A.jpg)


and it's more based then this garbage >>19897


File: 1632701246102.png (249.89 KB, 1174x1144, bro Korra 2.png)

>X porn is better than X smut
Amazing logic

This is honestly a depiction of Korra that is top-tier, a total Bro tomboy that is both hot but you can also be relaxed and chill with. If only the show had sticked to this aesthetic.

Also Aeoleus has some good stylization.


>Amazing logic
yes, because strong tomboy is better then bitch ass kid
LOK has better lewds


>strong tomboy is better then bitch ass kid
??? You do realize Tomboy is not based on age but behavior, yes? TOPH is a tomboy.
>LOK has better lewds
I'd hope so given that the characters in the original series are 12-15 and not 17-19 young adults.
A Repetar: The series [LOK] sucked objectively, Korra is a bombshell though, and the series had some good ideas and potential that Bryke squandered on liberal idpol and overdone 1920s aesthetics.

>[email protected] like a coward


that's not the point


butthurt lel

also why post a few minute from the other post


No argument

Don't bother, they're a s*gefag that spam threads with vaguely relevant posts but nothing concrete to say, and schizophrenic takes after you reply.


>s*gefag that spam threads
Why are you rping with yourself, 4fag?


File: 1632819673384.jpg (20.66 KB, 377x349, get help meds.jpg)

>RPing with yourself
>muh 4chan
>s*ging more
Thanks for confirming your illness, projector.


Down bad

Great takes


>why post a minute from the other post
Because I'm a different poster, retard


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Haters gonna hate



>I'm a different poster
You said it. Not me

brown woman cute


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>brown woman cute


File: 1634194217960-0.jpg (199.66 KB, 1950x1950, toph and the pebble.jpg)

File: 1634194217960-1.jpg (106.63 KB, 630x1024, girly toph and katara.jpg)

File: 1634194217960-2.gif (1.19 MB, 500x375, tough toph.gif)

Toph, Transgenders and Tomboys
This is a post a long time coming but in many liberal circles, especially after KorrAsami's lazy canonicity, 'fans' of ATLA have tried to push the idea that "Toph is Transgender" admittedly it's not a large group but I'd like to address it nonetheless. As an example I've seen several users on the ATLA wiki say they think Toph is a Transgender character. There is even a debate thread that I read before deciding to make a position.
Example: User Hasdi Bravo has stated that he believes Toph in a live action film should favor in casting Male actor Issac Jin Solstein in the role of Toph, since Toph is a "Boy In A Girls Body"

Toph is by all metrics a Tomboy character, not trans. She's rough and ready and likes to do things that are traditionally masculine, like fighting, swearing, being rude n' sassy, adventuring and breaking the rules and other typical boyish things, this contrasts Aang perfectly (earth vs air) because he likes to be controlled, polite and unantagonistic, even if not constantly. Toph mocks this, calling him "twinkle-toes" and compares him to a girl. Yet there is no doubt that Aang is not feminine or female-identifying (he calls himself "a guy" for example). The same goes for Toph at the other end of the behavioral spectrum.
The aforementioned debate mentioned several key arguments I think deserve to be stated
1 - Toph NEVER expressed feelings of resentment towards her gender, or ever directly said she felt like a "Boy In A Girls Body" nor asked to be called by male pronouns
2 - She clearly expressed interest in the opposite sex on various occasions, her crush on Sokka for instance. or the fact that she HAD 2 DAUGHTERS!
3 - She clearly enjoyed participating in (stereotypical) girlish activities with Katara from time to time. The Day Spa short in Tales of Ba-Sing-Se is a perfect example.
4 - She outright stated in Book 3: "City of Walls and Secrets" that she deliberately acts against Female stereotypes because she hates being held to high expectations placed upon her as a member of the upper class. "I learned proper society behavior and chose to leave it. You never learned anything. And frankly, it's a little too late."
5 - ATLA, unlike Korra is intended as a Y7 Show and got made in the 2000s (yes it is that old). The issue is irrelevant given the restrictions placed upon Nickelodeon and Bryke by the rating and the fact that it simply isn't a massive issue.
6 - If Toph had been dysphoric she would actively masquerade as such while disguised or try and identify more with the males of the group. For instance, while fighting as the Blind Bandit, she made no attempt to disguise her gender to the other fighters. Instead she reveled in being a "little girl" that beat tough male fighters.

The main arguments for this trans-toph conception is
A) Toph originally got designed as a boy: her old character design was the Earthbender in the opening sequence - that old design be used for roku's earthbending teacher (Sud).
B) Toph got played by a muscular man in the Ember Island Play
The first one fails to hold because some cut or changed content is often done so for a good reason and even Azula had been intended to be a boy.
The second fails because, if it didn't seem obvious enough, the Ember Island Play parodied the series in an abridged manner and intentionally caricaturized them for the purpose of the Fire Nation Propaganda Narrative; Katara is not nearly that ridiculously sensitive, nor promiscuous; Aang is a boy and is not always happy and perky; Sokka makes jokes than other things besides meat; Iroh isn't a useless glutton who has nothing better to do with his time than stuff his face with cake, etc. Moreover historically plays (including Asian ones) often did have actors/actresses play opposing roles to get masculine or feminine characteristics across, something Toph is likely familiar with being raised in a higher class. It was probably a relief for her to not be portrayed as a scared little girl who just wants more (a tempting angle for the propaganda heavy production), and by a butt-kicking masculine actor who could probably better reflect her TOMBOY nature than any over the top actress the troupe had.

TL;DR: Toph is just a tomboy, and there is nothing wrong with that. Today's society takes an individual simply acting different from the norm and tries to excessively and ignorantly psychoanalyze it a la Freud and pigeonholes it into some half-assed diagnosis based on shaky concepts of liberal ideologues. Just because a girl acts like the traditional idea of a boy, or vise versa, they don't necessarily wish to be the other sex.

Also Tomboy thread >>>/anime/2654


I appreciate this post. I'm glad that I've never run into these circles but there seems to be this weird thing with fans of Cartoons where they feel that the need the products they consume to be "progressive" and "representative" else they would have no other way to express their political opinions (or worse - they think would appear to be unprogressive). Some of them are really obsessive about this even. Zizek and coffee or something etc. etc.

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