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Old thread (v1): https://leftypol.org/hobby/res/7136.html

The practice and principles of Permaculture are one of the most important tools for not only creating a sustainable socialism, but also for repairing the damage done to the global ecosystem by capitalism, and lessening your individual reliance on the current capitalist system.Permacultural practice and socialism are two very powerful allies, and learning about permaculture should be necessity for modern socialists and communists.


Anons I'm so proud we filled an entire permaculture thread, let's make v2 even better


Archive of previous bread → https://archive.is/8jNjO


>>33648 (OP)
Modern agriculture changes the land to allow growing huge fields of the same crop continuously. This isn't how plants grow in nature. In nature, it's a mixture of different kinds of plants, from large to small trees, and from grasses to fungi and wildlife.

This diverse ecosystem allows nature to maintain stability against changing climates rather than being vulnerable to adverse weather events like monoculture crops, or to being wiped out by swarms of insects.

It's more labor intensive, but it's also what we need. The working class is the leader of humanity's future destiny, since we are the most numerous and most productive. we must achieve permaculture, which is a mode of agricultural production only supportable by socialism

much like the bourgeois represses or fails to develop or fund technology which increases decentralization of the means of production, like torrent software, they must also suppress more productive ecologies capable of allowing robust and decentralized production and consumption of food

only through centralization of agriculture can food take on a commodity form, and communally maintainable and productive land would pose an alternative to needing commodified food at all, which breaks a vital coercive measure of capital to bind the working class to capitalist societies rather than decentralized ones maintained by the workers themselves

permaculture grants the working class, an extension of their skin and digestive system which they themselves can control. bourgeois control of food is much like biological slavery, only through each individual being able to control their own means of food production, through a community which itself can, through a town, principality, nation and entire Earth which can, can the working class be made free of bourgeois labor coersion efforts


you may say, this monoculture lets you decrease harvesting and administration labor through linear scaling of human labor efforts through simple agricultural devices. to this the clear reply is that in the coming near future, and arguably present, we have the capability to achieve this same automation with permaculture at large scales, through advanced robotics and robotic aids of human labor.

historical arguments lay flat in the necessity of drastic reinventing at each present in time of the means of production through a scientific understanding of reality, and the latest reality requires stable ecological niches rather than mass genocide of exotic plant life in favor of just one plant chosen for some arbitrary metric like shippability, shelf life, or color. one woman's weed is another one's medicine, another one's building material. we cannot lose any more life, capitalism is a sick machine with sicker side-effects, that cannot be kept as the global coordinator of labor any longer, given the serious threats we face and the more advanced form of labor organization we must achieve, than crude wage-coerced and private forms


the psychotic urge to destroy an entire forest, to harvest wood for some trivial use, generates profit, contrasted against the immense loss of the rest of the forest, its soil, mycelial networks, insects, small animals, and even apex predators, then water reservoirs, windbreaks, rivers, maybe lakes all protected by that forest. all aligned within a mesh of interactions maintaining a healthy ecosystem, utterly destroyed to create a series of inert tables with an expected lifetime less than even a few decades or years in many cases. this utterly deranged, alien behavior is the work of not just the owning class, but capital itself, this behemoth burden and simultaneous lifelink, how do we migrate over life from capitalism to something else? with food and water most foremost.


in trying times, a man could look to the sky, listen to the rain, follow the eagle, and be guided to salvation among nature. capitalist enclosure of nature aims to prevent this. they dont want us living on big chunks of land with forests on them that have been sculpted over generations to provide for an entire person's nutrition needs and even some medicinal uses, along with water access, they don't want healthy environments allowing more makeshift and temporary living conditions with fewer materials, and conversely, they also really don't want reinforced cement commie blocks embedded within these self sustaining ecosystems, allowing large groups of people to live in a very sustainable and reliable way, without massive labor inputs required and without coerced wage labor. they do not want us to achieve communism in any way, and there are many avenues they use to oppress us to prevent us, which means there are many ways to do it or help reinforce it


a return to primitivist living is clearly not the answer to class struggle under capitalism. and yet in many ways a return to nature and primitive ways of living is what we need regardless. because of the increased productivity of nature and persistent and decentralized means of production, socialism can allow stabilization of non-oppressive labor requirements and resource distribution scenarios, sidestepping the requirement to work divided in the way the capitalists would have us divide labor

through elimination of some forms of consumption, entire forms of labor become unnecessary. through local production of food the entire agricultural shipping industry is eliminated. through universalizing food and housing access, the entire landlordism and landlordism financing industry can be eliminated in its necessity of scale. but this is surely a decrease in complexity and a return to something more primitive. yet how is it eliminating so much labor by primitivizing? because it is socializing the means of production and organizing people at a higher level of advancement than before, beyond what is capable of being achieved by the anti-social instruments of capital


the elimination of the commodity form must first mean the creation of non-commodity forms, grown from the pre-existing conditions of commoditization of all resources for creating other resources. only through direct relationships to the means of production, combined with socialized and decentralized distribution and access to the means of production, can the commodity form be eliminated. this does not have to mean a decrease in industrial efficiency. it can also entail a radical shift in value systems and necessity for material wealth to begin with, as we must note how many are themselves simply generated by the poverty of conditions under capitalism itself, driving weird compulsions to consume in one way or another, which would not otherwise be felt in a satisfying lifestyle, allowing yet more labor requirements to be eliminated. this re-primitivization simultaneously generates a richer and more robust life, and decreases how much we all must work.

socialism requires less labor than capitalism through these effects


and no wonder it is nature itself that developed the most self-transformative system, given the seasons imposing variable survival conditions. only through using nature itself, not attempting to take nature apart and use its inert pieces to build something new, no rather through using living nature, as it stood, for as much as possible. given all that it can offer and how utopian it is, why should the availability of some luxuries like jewelry be expected and yet not the availability of survivable forest refuges for relaxation? communism doesn't have to be kept on a clock forcing people to work at the right time, rather the systems on which we work should be designed entirely to accomodate us, not us accomodate them, as mere cogs in machines of diverse parts, as diverse as the facets of the division of labor imposed by the capitalist class, and as those are removed more and more over time through human advancement of our species and our ecosystem, we can achieve utopian primitivism, that most wholesome and natural form of living, out in nature as much as possible, and yet protected through advanced technological society


Permaculture is love


Post more informational content and hope pills.


What if I want turmeric and peppercorn, and my permaculture garden isn't in a tropical climate


i hab some of these things on permaculture


>use greenhouse techniques to grow tropicals in your region
>get it from somewhere else
spices in particular last well when kept dry, and take small amounts, so they're a perfect choice for international trade if it's hard to grow certain spices in certain regions. at the same time, local spices are often neglected and could be built up. maybe you have a replacement ingredient for those two locally that almost tastes similar, or good enough


What if I just don't want to operate a greenhouse along with a farm and want to live in a city instead


then do that?


Well, anons, I've recently become lucky enough to have the opportunity to purchase land where I can start a permaculture project. Does anyone have any beginner's resources? I've watched a few videos about basic permaculture principles, but a step-by-step guide to site selection and forest foundations would be sweet. My aim is for a 5-10 acre max land parcel located in a subtropical region.


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You don't have to source every food item from the local produce. The point is that a lot of it can be done closer to the point of consumption. You would do that for crops you eat a lot of, like potatoes, doesn't matter as much for things you eat less than a pound of per year.

You can put permaculture production in cities in or alongside parks, so the stuff is nearby for your supply. And greenhouses for certain kinds of things can be put on rooftops. And also of course incorporated into the sprawl. Permaculture is not solely the agricultural aspect but (best case) incorporates architecture and city planning/engineering too. Permaculture combines well with better city planning in general, because higher density walkable urban centers mean more land becomes available for other things. It takes a significant amount of land per person to feed even with improved yields, so that's a plus. It would also enable growing back more forests for carbon sequestration, putting back trees where a lot of (redundant) farmland exists today, replacing suburban sprawls with permaculture types of farms, and reconfiguring cities to be more ideal for human habitation in terms of density, amenities, layout, etc. Less dense than super metropolises but much more dense than suburbs, you know, mid-rise multi-purpose mixed-zone buildings.


You walk out of your apartment and exit the commie block. It looks like you just entered a forest. You take a walk, eating some wild berries and doing a bit of weeding that needs to be done, indicated on the digital work queue. You follow your augmented reality glasses to a beautiful clearing full of weeds and get to work.

Carrying your sacks of weeds back to the compost area you pick an apple and some berries for a snack. Then you take a few hour fishing break to catch lunch. At the edge of the forest you find a high speed rail node and take it to the city. Youre dropped off and grab an electric scooter to ride on the tree lined streets, meant for small vehicles only.

You love work because its free associative labor you chose to volunteer at, and since you got lucky and this form of work was in high demand , you receive thanks from the community and a beautiful pendant you proudly display

After work you meet your family at the village canteen where you cook together and share stories

Return home merrily, you dream of the next day. Tomorrows a farming day, where you'll be taken to the countryside to help sewing the seeds

All is good in the world


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Now is the time to grow plants comrades



.pdf plox


this looks amazing, however i am not paying. please, pdf, i cant find it on libgen


What's the organic way to put in a pond? Importing clay? I just want a small one for the frogs so I'm hoping vidrel will work


someone convince me not to plant these non-native seeds I spent 80 bucks on


Permaculture isn't necessarily against doing that. If the species isn't invasive there's not that much of an issue. Also worth considering that climate change is going to wreck a lot of ecosystems and we're going to have to adapt by introducing a lot of non-native species that are already adapted to the new conditions.

Depends on the soil you have. Some soil will drain faster than others. You may not need to do anything but dig a hole if the drainage is slow enough. The video seems on point if that's the kind of pond you want. If you don't have a natural source of clay nearby you might be able to find some natural clay at a pottery supply store.


I bought a rotary cultivator today, plan on getting at least part of my land into shape to where I can at least plant 'taters. 5 horsepower. I have 4 ha of fields that has laid fallow for probably 20 years, I'll only be able to turn a fraction of it


like what the other anon said look for low drainage, ion that much about permaculture but I do know a decent amount about wetland ecology, chances are a slow draining area might already have some wetland plants growing there or maybe even a vernal pool. point is find the area where collects the most and drains the least and start there, if your in the tidewater region and send lawns pics I could verify cuz you do have shit like eastern star eye grass and blunt spikerush randomly growing in poorly drained lawns.


Also good advice.
Look up where there are wetlands near you and try to get some transplants form there maybe, they'll already be adapted to the conditions. If you do some research you might be able to find some information from your local wildlife department or something some material about local plants. If you're trying to attract particular animals you can probably find a guide specific to them. Frogs vary a bit so it depends on the species probably. If you find a plant that they like to lay eggs on that is probably a good one to go for since it's so important to them.


Thanks. I have a few spots that flood after big rains and my soil has plenty of clay so I'll give it a try
Torn about whether to put it in the shade or sun.. I don't want to have to fill it manually so shade would cut down on evaporation but then I worry that the lack of sun will create a less then ideal habitat for the critters its meant for? Also will this be a breeding ground for mosquitoes?


>I don't want to have to fill it manually so shade would cut down on evaporation but then I worry that the lack of sun will create a less then ideal habitat for the critters its meant for
That depends on what critters it's meant for exactly and what their environment prefers. If they like plants that need sun and you can put them in, they will provide the shade for example. Devil's in the details. A lot of permaculture is just learning specifics of the organisms and other features you incorporate into the system.
>Also will this be a breeding ground for mosquitoes?
Mosquitoes will breed in any standing water they can find. If you already have puddles forming in the area they already have an opportunity to lay their eggs. If you're worried about it there are plants that repel mosquitoes. Citronella is a commonly used one that's often easy to get.


your def onto to something cuz some species will prefer shade over sun, considering amphibians are exothermic but also need moisture a mix of both sounds ideal, if you wanna drop ur general region I could easily find what frogs live near you and what there ecological preferences are


there U go you tards u_u


thank u n_n


mmm :3


finally assembled it and manager to overfill the engine with oil because the instructions are badly translated from Italian. drained the excess oil, which had foamed a bit. letting it rest now to see if the foaming clears up


spent about 2 hours tearing up part (about 1 are) of my 1 hectare "lawn", works pretty well. if I were serious about planting the entire thing I'd probably need a tractor


Nice, are you planning on putting mulch down? I think it was you that mentioned potatoes. I did those for the first time this spring and man oh man did I fuck up. Everyone seen eyes on potatoes but I hadn't seen those long ass stems before so I broke them off like a retard before planting xd
Thanks guys
reading up on the frogs and wetland plants of central Ontario and I think a shallow ditch in the sun will be perfect. I live right next to a lake so there's plenty of viable habitat already anyway, I'm just giving them a place to chill. I might still give them a 3 feet deep section for hibernating but we'll see


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>Nice, are you planning on putting mulch down? I think it was you that mentioned potatoes. I did those for the first time this spring and man oh man did I fuck up. Everyone seen eyes on potatoes but I hadn't seen those long ass stems before so I broke them off like a retard before planting xd
lol @ breaking off the shoots
it's probably too late to plant any annuals. there was snow on the ground into May this year. I need to look into more perennials
moose or deer have been grazing on one of my young apple trees >:(
picrel is the result of my cultivating efforts. managed to turn over about 140 m² in five hours


>>34175 (me)
I already have some redcurrant bushes. perhaps I could clone them
strawberries would also be interesting
cabbage, swedes, sweet potato for carbs
I think I need to pay the local plant school a visit. I'd also need to set up a barrier of some sort. I know there's some barbed wire in the barn from the previous owner, and chickenwire on top would keep birds out
I also have hemp seed that I plan on planting, both to see how much biomass can be produced but also because CBD is legal here


>>34176 (me)
speaking of perennials: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Land_Institute#Kernza
perennial grain is apparently an active area of research


Strawberries are great for permaculture because you can easily co-plant them with other things and they propagate themselves. Just be aware of what they do and don't play nice with (look up companion planting info). But if you're as far north as it sounds like idk if strawbs grow too well. IIRC there are more cold hardy varieties though.
>I think I need to pay the local plant school a visit.
This is a good idea, although they might have an ideological skew about agriculture to be aware of.
>I also have hemp seed that I plan on planting, both to see how much biomass can be produced but also because CBD is legal here
Nice, you should be able to get plenty of biomass from that and be able to get a consistent source of mulch.


plenty of people grow strawberries here, no problem in that regard


Some advice for strawberries: the first season you grow them, pick off the flowers before they fruit. Growing fruit takes a lot of resources and if the plants can't fruit they will spend the resource they have on growing more and establishing themselves.

Less fruits = more roots.


I have more perennials than anything. Put in two blueberries today and replaced a chokeberry that the rabbits nibbled to the ground
>I'd also need to set up a barrier of some sort
Ya something chewed the bark off of all of my fruit trees this year but they seem to be pulling through
I need to do currants still
>I'd also need to set up a barrier of some sort
your best bet is to plant more than you need. I gave up with barriers and the like


oh and I forgot, you do this because the faster they get established the more productive they will be sooner. you lose out on fruits in the first season but then you get more production later.

more roots -> more fruits


sounds a bit tedious to go and deflower (heh) the strawberries but I get the idea
>Ya something chewed the bark off of all of my fruit trees this year
could be red deer


>sounds a bit tedious to go and deflower (heh) the strawberries but I get the idea
It's the same tedious as picking the fruit would be.


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What are you guys' thoughts on aquaponics? And is it possible to efficiently run a setup through a pond?


I don't see why not but I've never seen an aquaponics setup that wasn't mostly PVC pipe and plastic containers for the fish. Something more organic would be ideal
Only possible drawbacks I can think of for the in ground setup would be that controlling temp and pH might harder and runoff from the pond might be bad for the environment


>PVC pipes
reminder that the phthalates used in PVC as plasticizers leaches out and is very carcinogenic

Aquaponics in a permaculture system is an emerging thing and has a lot of potential. You could argue that aquaponics conceptually is just extending permaculture to an aquatic ecosystem.


>reminder that the phthalates used in PVC as plasticizers leaches out and is very carcinogenic
what is the alternative? PTFE is hardly affordable. PP or PE maybe?


PTFE is also bad, but for different reasons ("forever chemical"). I would recommend against plastics in general if you can. The effects of plastics are not well understood at this point. If you are serious about building piping you should be looking for metal in the long run. Cheap plastic tubes to get a proof of concept working is probably fine, but even putting aside health and environmental concerns, plastic degrades easier than you think, especially outdoors and being pumped with the kind of bio compounds that would be involved in aquaculture. Typical uses of PVC pipes for that are by hobbyists who aren't taking it that seriously or by companies that are trying to cut costs and skimp on building materials. Plastic pipes can be useful for things like managing wires (since they also function as insulators), but they're really a pretty bad solution for piping liquids.


Which metal would be sufficient for piping? I'm looking to build a small setup as ancillary plant and meat production to a more traditional permaculture design, so I want something that isn't going to bankrupt me.


Copper has been a solid standard although it's become more expensive in recent years. You should keep in mind though that none of this stuff is some iron clad rule. It's all tradeoffs. If you don't have the opportunity to get better materials, the less healthy/environmental ones will still work.

But you also might look into designing aquaponics without pipes. There might already be solutions using landscaping or other types of construction. Permaculturists tend to try to avoid relying too much on systems like pipes since they can require more maintenance. You can definitely set up an aquaponics system without needing pipes, but there would again be tradeoffs. It might require more space or it might be harder to isolate.


y not ceramic pipes?
metal corrodes


copper has antibacterial properties which probably isn't good in an outdoors environment. I suspect iron might be best


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Ceramics are not as common or versatile but sure. There are a lot of water management methods that use pottery and so on.

Iron rusts easily. Steel might be better. Then again rust can feed the ecosystem in some situations.


I use iron as a catch-all term here. but yeah iron ions are beneficial to most lifeforms
interesting method


still looking into permaquaculture.. some interesting links on this page https://freshwater-aquaculture.extension.org/pond-culture/


picked up some perennial seeds
>Oriental garlic (Allium tuberosum)
>rucola (Eruca vesicaria)
>wild strawberry (Fragaria vesca)
will get to planting tomorrow, and a bunch of annuals


Found some permaculture books that touch on aquaculture but I'm going to stop now because I don't even live in a place where this is viable.
I did get a start on my wildlife pond and hit the ground water less than a foot down! We just had a rain so Im assuming this is temporary. The immediate vicinity is heavily planted out with wildflowers and this is the same area-ish that I put the swale in that I was talking about last thread so I guess these things are keeping the ground wet despite being on the highest part of the property. Its cool but now I have till its dry to dig more
nice. I've got those strawberries too. Sadly after many years now I've still not eaten any.. I guess the animals get them first but that's pretty much what they're there for anyway so oh well


that is cool. I wonder what the "watering radius" of one pot would be? Im think 2-4 per 4x8 foot raised bed


Depends on a number of factors, soil drainage probably being most important.


this gives me too much flashbacks to that 'magic ceramic pot heater' that was going around social media last year


it started to rain so enough yard work for today. planted so far:


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true, theres too much clay in my area for this. I did find these if anyone else is interested. They're called Ollas


managed to also plant
and water the field before I had to leave


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>mfw fertilizing plants with used coffee grounds from Chiapas coffee beans


incredibly based

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