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File: 1729464470783.jpg (67.47 KB, 736x414, mirkwood.jpg)

 

Elf edition.

Since a bunch of the old threads were basically nuked with the server transfer, I wanted to revive some of them.

General discussion of the fantasy genre.

File: 1729466960467.mp4 (3.76 MB, 362x360, The_Mummers_Dance.mp4)

Also, here's an old song from my childhood that I've always personally associated with fantasy for some reason.

Fuck Universal

File: 1729509616695.png (385.72 KB, 640x360, ClipboardImage.png)

>elf edition
Which is best for elf sizes?
<human size
<slightly taller than humans
<slightly shorter than humans
<little guys (hobbit size)
<really little guys (Keebler size)
<a lot taller than humans

>>44049
1m95 for male elves, 1m80 for females

>>44049
6'10 for females, 5'11 for males

>>44049
I find tall women to be attractive.

File: 1729529979755.png (561.08 KB, 514x600, ClipboardImage.png)

>>44049
I have this story I'm working on where the elves are this elitist group that have dominated humans and become the noble class of that feudal society.

>>44053
Oh so I'm thinking pretty tall. Maybe 7 to 8 feet. I think fantasy stories don't do size difference enough. Only like the monstrous humanoids like ogres, while all the intelligent ones are roughly human size or sometimes midgets like hobbits and dwarves.

>>44049
Different tribes of elves with different heights between them

>>44049
whichever have largest tits

>>44058
Wouldn't that just be the tallest ones or do you mean proportional to their bodies?

You know what grinds my gears with fantasy? The dipshits who say something like
>B-but it's fantasy! There's wizards and dragons!
when something doesn't make any sense.

Good fantasy is supposed to have coherent worlds that feel like the could exist. Like this could be a real place in some parallel dimension, not like someone's just making shit up.

>>44413
I think there's a bit of a disconnect on this tbh. There's (broadly) two kinds of fantasy in this regard. On the one hand you have "grounded" fantasy with well established rules, and on the other you have fantasy that runs on vibes and will get away with anything. Maybe you could think of it as a spectrum, too since sometimes they mix these elements, like in Lord of the Rings having a detailed history but also very soft magic.

always thought fantasy was for faggots but then I read Conan

>>44417
>Conan
that's gay as fuck anon

>>44422
Is that praise for it?

File: 1736669233311.mp4 (10.45 MB, 1280x720, conan priest.mp4)


>>44039
Good taste, anon <3

>>44049
Women larger than the males. 😉😉😉

How would you balance elves being immortal (or just very long-lived) in a game system where characters level up or get more skilled over time?
>Longer lifespan and slower growth/aging means higher XP thresholds
>You can lose XP/skill with time (also lets elder races respec organically)
>Some other drawback (and not reducing attributes since elves are ageless)

>>44961
>>Longer lifespan and slower growth/aging means higher XP thresholds
This is the solution i've seen most often. It looks to be the best fit from a flavor and game mechanic standpoint, but on the face of it raising XP caps seems like bad game design.

The approach you can kind of extrapolate from Elder Scrolls is stacking minor elemental weaknesses until damage taken from most enemies seems to be fair in relation to offensive strength and human attributes. This approach definitely enriches character building, yet might not even the scales enough or be hard to justify lorewise.

Other tweaks might include having humans be more favored by gods (if they're a part of gameplay) or charismatic to members of certain races, locking in races for certain class/alignment combinations or giving a race more difficult sustenance requirements (see zangband's vampires, ghouls and golems).

>>44961
Honestly, I just kind of operate on the idea that this is the elf's first real adventure

>>44107
>Wouldn't that just be the tallest ones or do you mean proportional to their bodies?
The latter.
The thicker the shelf, the hotter the elf.

File: 1737046249116.png (486.73 KB, 745x739, qju8tdo6nqtd1.png)

What are the best aesthetic inspirations for fantasy cultures? (Especially non humans)

>>44998
Elves love gazebos, collonades and arches.

>>45008
I remember reading about a society following the elf archetype that lived in a grand city made entirely from light tent fabric, like a more dignified version of dwarffortresses hippie elves. The first pic has a somewhat similar vibe.

>>44998
I finally understand now

File: 1738879404790.png (527.3 KB, 360x521, forgotten realms orcs.png)

Hey, unique stat blocks for orcs were removed from the latest D&D monster manual. This, combined with orcs becoming a playable race and their attempt to have nicer, more peaceful orcs has revived the discourse around orcs.

My takeaway is this: not every setting that has orcs needs to make them like the Warcraft orcs. Forgotten Realms orcs were just another kind of monster.

>>45130
The silly thing about Orc Discourse is there's usually always some other monster that just takes the place the orcs used to have, like gnolls, hobgoblins, orgres, etc.

>>44961
>How would you balance elves being immortal (or just very long-lived) in a game system where characters level up or get more skilled over time?
What kind of game are you talking about? Like Elder Scrolls? What does living long matter? Not that many ingame years pass right? If you mean in a game that takes place over generations, like Chivalry, I'd just have it that the elves are just a lot less fecund. So you're stronger/more skilled, but losing characters hurts more.

In like an Elder Scrolls game I'd just balance the races by giving them various strengths and weaknesses on the stats like most games do.

>>45132
Well if you have a video game where lifespan isn't going to come into play it'd really just be an immersion thing - why would the elves who are 400 years old not be vastly more skilled than the humans who are 30? But in a context where lifespan does come into play, either a video game or a tabletop game that takes place over decades, any characters with a longer lifespan would gain an innate advantage from being able to stick around longer and keep gaining XP. I guess you could make the shorter lived races tougher, but it'd be a little weird for that to be a standard difference between them.

>If you mean in a game that takes place over generations, like Chivalry, I'd just have it that the elves are just a lot less fecund. So you're stronger/more skilled, but losing characters hurts more.

This is a good answer for games where you're managing large numbers of people as opposed to individual characters. Shorter lived races tend also to have flavor that gives them higher fertility, like humans or goblins typically breeding more than the typical dwarf or halfling.

Are D&D retroclones reactionary?

>>45131
>The silly thing about Orc Discourse is there's usually always some other monster that just takes the place the orcs used to have, like gnolls, hobgoblins, orgres, etc.
Just like burgereich "whiteness" discourse. I used to think Latinos were next up to become white, but now I believe it's Indians.

>>45131
That's the weird thing, isn't it? The orc discourse is specifically about orcs. If I made a fantasy setting and described trolls as a race of savage monsters that live in caves and beneath the earth who come out to raid and terrorize the countryside, or described the beastmen as a race of twisted mortals who functioned as mortal demons, hating the sunlight and all that is good and grows upon the earth and plotting the destruction of all creation, no one would care. They're just fantasy monsters to act as baddies in your campaigns.

The discourse is about orcs ''specifically."

>>45137
I dunno, I've seen discussions about it on tumblr where the issue is with the fact that there's an evil race that it's deemed morally good to destroy, and orcs just happen to fill that spot most of the time because of Tolkien.

Though I wonder if that's even true in lotr. Like it's presented as pretty uncomplicated because of the circumstances, but then there's the episode where sam and frodo infiltrate Mordor and there's a conversation between a couple of orks about maybe just bugging out and setting up somewhere else out of sauron's control. So like, in that respect orcs aren't all unthinking slaves, and if that's the case then in the logic of lotr there's capacity for good orcs.

File: 1738914195018-0.png (1.07 MB, 960x514, garthim.png)

File: 1738914195018-1.png (991.52 KB, 905x1000, gnoll.png)

>>45138
I think they might dislike that broader idea, but I think it's specifically the orcs that trigger it. I think it may be because orcs are distinctively more human in appearance than other monstrous races.

For instance, I haven't heard anyone complain about the portrayal of the Garthim in the Dark Crystal because they're weird evil insect crabs. As another example, gnolls often fill a very similar roll to orcs in the fantasy settings where they appear, but don't seem to trigger the same conversations because they're weird hyena monsters.

>>45139
You might be right, and I suppose I don't necessarily blame them, especially in regards to other internet zeitgeist stuff like the ubiquity of orc/elf rape fiction and the tropes that tends to employ.

>>45135
>Are D&D retroclones reactionary?
lol
No they are just updating an old ruleset to be more accessible with better formatting and such.

>>45137
>>45138
Orc discourse is usually about orcs and only orcs, but sometimes it broadens to the more general concept of evil or monstrous races. You even sometimes have people making arguments about how certain creatures being framed as "monsters" instead of just another species (especially intelligent monsters that aren't "races" like beholders) is weird and gross. Which has a point, since the games and other media usually treat being an extinction event for the "bad creatures" as a good thing. This is arguably rooted way way deeper in the ideology of fantasy than any particular "bad race."

>>45143
>especially in regards to other internet zeitgeist stuff like the ubiquity of orc/elf rape fiction and the tropes that tends to employ.
Here, I feel like D&D is partially responsible. Before you could play as an orc, only half-orcs were playable, and the half-orcs were explicitly stated to be the product of just such a dynamic, just orc/human instead of orc/elf.

>>45144
Here's the thing, fantasy creatures having wildly different mindsets and motivations to our own is partially what makes them feel like a fantasy creature. This goes all the way back to ancient mythology and folklore where fey creatures would have significantly different mindsets, motivations and a sense of morality to humans. For example,t hey typically show little or no value for mortal life, but will treat games and riddles like the most sacred of laws.

If you don't have this, fantasy creatures start all feeling like variant humans.

>>45146
That's true but if anything it's a testament to how boring an "evil race" or "evil culture" almost always is. Even if you make your orcs Yakubian monstrosities that only know evil, it's way more interesting to actually explore that dynamic and its pragmatic implications than to just have them be fodder for your sword and board heroes. It's also robbing the story of a lot of powerful emotions and themes if you simply reduce the enemy to acceptable and disposable targets when the characters might have mixed feelings or at least more interesting motivations for why they fight these enemies.

There's also a vast and wide open space you can explore in the realm of "their psychology is different from humans." Star Trek did this significantly better despite usually still being unrealistically reductive and silly (which is more an issue of doing alien-of-the-week instead of spending more time developing the worldbuilding).

>>45147
>That's true but if anything it's a testament to how boring an "evil race" or "evil culture" almost always is. Even if you make your orcs Yakubian monstrosities that only know evil, it's way more interesting to actually explore that dynamic and its pragmatic implications than to just have them be fodder for your sword and board heroes. It's also robbing the story of a lot of powerful emotions and themes if you simply reduce the enemy to acceptable and disposable targets when the characters might have mixed feelings or at least more interesting motivations for why they fight these enemies.
Screenwriter John August wrote a good blogpost on this years ago.

https://johnaugust.com/2010/screenwriting-and-the-problem-of-evil
Screenwriting and the problem of evil

>In most movies, the villain isn’t really “evil” — he’s just at cross-purposes with the hero. Darth Vader does not perceive himself to be doing wrong. The queen in Aliens is protecting her brood. The shark in Jaws is, well, a shark.1


>The villains I’m writing fall somewhere in between zombies and robots: more sentient than the shambling dead, but less purposeful than Skynet. The challenge has been figuring out how to articulate What They Want in a way that makes sense in a popcorn movie.


>If I were writing a junior-year philosophy paper, I’d be able to fold in some Nietzsche and Sartre quotes and call it a day. But that won’t play at 24 frames per second. It needs to be satisfying without external support. So I’m left to look for parallels in other successful movies.

personally I thought the warcraft orcs were a lot more interesting when they were just straight up evil before they became lame noble warriors tricked into being evil by a demon or whatever

>>45149
It was interesting at the time because IIRC Warcraft III was the first major piece of fantasy media to go with that angle. There was a time when "good orcs" was a pretty fresh and unique take. And at least in Reign of Chaos, the Undead had taken up the mantle of very evil baddies that the orcs dropped.

>>45150
>the Undead had taken up the mantle of very evil baddies that the orcs dropped.
And they do far better job at it too. Orcs lack the cool factor as villains, they are just violent "ooga booga Grog smash" cavemen.
Concerning the shifting fantasy attitude towards orcs, I think its because even when they are supposed to be unambiguous bad guys, they get depicted as evil people, with culture and individuality, rather than evil monsters. Even back in the begining, Tolkien noticed the moral dilemma implied in that.

File: 1739256810365.jpeg (299.96 KB, 2000x1000, skeksis.jpeg)

Anybody see the Dark Crystal show before it was canceled? Was surprisingly adult at times.

>>45166
Yeah it's another casualty of covid. The puppets required the puppeteers to be in very close quarters that would violate regulations (most puppets required more than one operator). It's a shame. It was extremely impressive from a technical perspective and the puppets manage to feel like characters and carry a show without regular human actors. They only used a marginal amount of CGI to make minor tweaks to the faces and lip sync IIRC. Other than stuff like backgrounds and erasing puppeteers of course. It really helped sell the idea of an very different/alien world.

It was also pretty on the nose about class struggle. Unlike most fantasy where the status quo is good, it's explicitly a system of domination and exploitation. This is more clear than in the original movie - the show depicts and discusses the Skeksis appropriating surplus, which is identified in-universe as an injustice and explained to be the material basis of the class society. IIRC that's just the first episode. It's a feudal system not a capitalist one of course, so it's not that radical, but class struggle is still fundamentally the driving conflict of the show.

File: 1740894660049.png (330.34 KB, 326x435, goblin singing.png)

>Clap! Snap! the black crack!
>Grip, grab! Pinch, nab!
>And down down to Goblin-town
>You go, my lad!

>Clash, crash! Crush, smash!

>Hammer and tongs! Knocker and gongs!
>Pound, pound, far underground!
>Ho, ho! my lad!

>Swish, smack! Whip crack!

>Batter and beat! Yammer and bleat!
>Work, work! Nor dare to shirk,
>While Goblins quaff, and Goblins laugh,
>Round and round far underground
>Below, my lad!

File: 1740894695595.png (287.51 KB, 288x409, singing goblin 2.png)

>Fifteen birds in five fir-trees,
>their feathers were fanned in a fiery breeze!
>But, funny little birds, they had no wings!
>O what shall we do with the funny little things?
>Roast 'em alive, or stew them in a pot;
>fry them, boil them and eat them hot?

>Burn, burn tree and fern!

>Shrivel and scorch! A fizzling torch
>To light the night for our delight,
>Ya hey!

>Bake and toast 'em, fry and roast ’em

>till beards blaze, and eyes glaze;
>till hair smells and skins crack,
>fat melts, and bones black
>in cinders lie
>beneath the sky!

>So dwarves shall die,

>and light the night for our delight,
>Ya hey!
>Ya-harri-hey!
>Ya hoy!
.


>>45323
>>45324
I love goblins.

>>44415
>very soft magic.

by "soft magic" do you mean it doesnt have well defined rules, or "low magic"? latter ofc makes no sense with LotR but i'd also argue LotR challenges your initial premise, since it is extremely detailed and largely internally consistent, but also a world & story that operates according to mythological presumptions, not naturalistic ones. its less like the fantasy derivative of it than it is like if there was a greek/norse myth that prioritized the actions & lives of mortals/lesser demigods

>>45389
The post already explained, "soft magic" means not specific rules for how it works. Soft magic is like Gandalf being able to vaguely use magic to protect the fellowship from danger. Hard magic is like having spell slots and doing math.

File: 1741743486453.jpg (2.16 MB, 2700x3600, WoW_Chronicle_Magic.jpg)

>>45390
Hard magic is okay in an RPG context where you need well defined rules and numbers to make the game work, but it typically feels too rationalist in a fantasy narrative. I think magic is supposed to be somewhat mysterious.

This is one of my problem with the new Warcraft lore. Originally, the various forms of magic were mysterious and generally unrelated to each other. Then they retconned and reworked it into this stupid hard magic system (pic related.)

This is just one of many things that has ruined the setting, but this was not a fucking improvement.

>>45390
Actually, Tolkien had a magic system in mind and concrete ideas about how various magical things worked, he just kept it deliberately vague in his published books and tended to go over them mostly in letters and notes. For instance, he says in a letter that each mortal life has a certain lifespan allotted to it, and magical life extension worked by stretching that lifespan out, and as a consequence it sort of gets thinner and, well, stretched out. In the book, Tolkien only vaguely alludes to this, like when Bilbo reaches the great age of 111, and yet doesn't seem to have aged at all, and later remarks to Gandalf "I feel thin, sort of stretched, like butter scraped over too much bread."

In addition to this, there's also the fact that most "hard" magic systems kind of operate like an alternative version of physics, while Tolkien's magic system wasn't anything of the sort and seem to be based on Neoplatonism like a lot of the rest of the book. Like in one part of the book, the Hobbits mention that the elves have magic like Sauron does, causing Galadriel to be somewhat taken aback that they think that the power of the elves and the power of Sauron are the same, but concedes that to those unfamiliar with these things, it would all seem to all just fall under the umbrella of "magic." In a letter, Tolkien explains that the power of the elves comes from the ideal of beauty, while the power of Sauron come from the ideal of control and is related to a type of evil he calls "The Machine." Which is all very different from most other magic systems which, like I said before, tend to be more like an alternative form of physics, while his magic is essentially emanations of Platonic ideals, made all the more obtuse that he deliberately keeps it all vague and mysterious in the books themselves.

>>45415
Platonism is still "alternative physics" just that it's an idealist version of physics vs a materialist version. The Greeks had physical theories, they were just very different from what we have developed through science. To have a really "soft" magic in this sense would require magic to work more by fiat and hand waves (which isn't totally unreasonable depending on the story).

>>45422
Didn't the Catholic church absorb a lot of these Greek/Platonic theories and reasoning over their centuries of discourse on temporal and supernatural subjects? Would it be fair to say that the would of lotr functions along these lines given Tolkien's influences?

>>45423
Yeah but the thing is that this idea of physics is much more vibes based because it's idealist. In that sense it's still a more "soft" magic. It might be very elaborate and detailed but it's not necessarily concrete or consistent like a set of rules.

>>45425
Isn't it all kind of vibes based, though? Even with magic that mimics physics, it's kind of up to the author to decide exactly what that means.

https://acoup.blog/2025/04/18/collections-why-celebrimbor-fell-and-boromir-conquered-the-moral-universe-of-tolkien/

>This week (and probably next) I want to talk a bit more Tolkien, but in a somewhat different vein from normal. Rather than discussing the historicity of Tolkien’s world or adaptations of it, I want to take a moment to discuss some of the themes of Tolkien’s work, which express themselves in the metaphysical architecture of Arda itself. In particular, I wanted to do this because it struck me how badly Rings of Power had fumbled the core story of its second season, the Fall of Celebrimbor, seemingly failing to understand the underlying moral themes of Tolkien’s legendarium and thus not understanding which elements of Celebrimbor’s story were ‘load bearing’ and why.

File: 1745179501058.png (488.28 KB, 768x768, ClipboardImage.png)

What size should elf ears be?

Recently I watched two low budget 90s LOTR TV adaptations, one Finish, Hobitit (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHFKdgjEugs), which presents the story almost entirely from the perspective of Frodo, and the Russian Khraniteli, which adapts only the first book. Neither in a language I understand. They are both basically theater productions, with Hobitit being a more competent one, doing the best it can with its non-existent budget (although they could picked shorter actors for hobbits so that Frodo isnt taller than Aragorn). That also makes it a less interesting one, just not much going on. The only notable thing which made me laugh is when Gollum showed up, because he is literally just a naked fat bald guy, acting like he is tweeking on meth. Also Aragorn's wig makes him look like he is in 80s hair metal band. And Boromir has sort of punk look going on, dressed in black, shaved sides of head with a tattoo on one side. The actors should have been switched, Boromir has much more serious, royal aura to him.
Khraniteli on the other hand has a lot going in it. It is like a 2 hour long LOTR shitpost. Has weirdly psychadelic quality to it. "Effects" and costumes are laughable, greenscreen (or whatever the Russian 1991 version of it is) is abused even when there is absolutely no need for it, performances, I dont even know how to describe them, funky electronic music used as a Nazgul theme, just everything.

>>45649
That blog made me check out Rings of Power S2, and it officially crossed into so bad its good territory, if only it was a feature film length and not 8 hour long season. It is so blatant that whatever the declared budget is is fake for the purpose of tax evasion, writers not giving a fuck, editors not giving a fuck, special effects artists not being given enough time to polish the turd, awkward performances, the scenes arent even lit properly, what a disaster.

>>45650
Would the long ones start sagging as they age? (Do elves age?)

File: 1745182837435.png (872.9 KB, 700x850, ClipboardImage.png)

>>45651
The first season was the same, just laughably cheap while claiming to cost a fucking BILLION dollars to produce.

File: 1745183106090.png (114.45 KB, 320x157, ClipboardImage.png)

>>45652
Ears are made of cartilage which isn't particularly good at healing. Maybe longer elf ears would tend to become crooked or something because the longer you live the more likely you are to get injured. Having big ears also makes them easier to get hurt, so maybe as elves get older they tend to develop something like cauliflower ear.

>>45651
>That blog made me check out Rings of Power S2, and it officially crossed into so bad its good territory, if only it was a feature film length and not 8 hour long season. It is so blatant that whatever the declared budget is is fake for the purpose of tax evasion, writers not giving a fuck, editors not giving a fuck, special effects artists not being given enough time to polish the turd, awkward performances, the scenes arent even lit properly, what a disaster.

That's really unfortunate. Alas. At least Christopher isn't alive to watch his father's magnum opus get raped (any more than it has).

File: 1745188194377.jpeg (492.92 KB, 618x874, IMG_1240.jpeg)

Anyone else really love Jeff Smith’s Bone? Rat creatures have a pretty great design

>>45653
Even the cheapness of costumes aside, the whole design of armors reminds me Dragon Age or something, like it is completely divorced from reality. Someone made a concept art they thought looked cool, and absolutely no thought was put into how the armor would actually function, or if it makes sense in the setting. So you have armors like Galadriel or the orc pictured, made out of random shit glued together, the exactly one elf who wears wooden breastplate, or the ruler of Mordor dressing in old rusty trash.

>>45656
Just to demonstrate how either insanely lazy, or more likely rushed and assembly line the show must have been shot, at the end of penultimate episode one of the main characters gets killed, and in the next episode he is back like nothing happened, not with any in-universe explanation or anything like that, the show just has such a poor continuity. My guess is that the script called for scene where the villain meets a hero on the battlefield, and defeats him. But when they shot that scene, I guess the director literally did not read the rest of the script, that this character in fact should not die here, and interpreted "defeat" as "murder". So you see a guy get repeatedly skewered in the chest, and then the next episode he is just fine. He is not wounded, nothing like that, the previous scene with him was simply forgotten about.

>>45661
Showbiz in general has this problem of seemingly not recognizing armor is functional. It's not just reflected in the designs but in the way they choreograph fight scenes, where you often see things like a sword stabbing straight through platemail.

>>45662
Even just in this clip the continuity doesn't make sense. You see the good guys have maybe 2 dozen people left and then we cut to a big battle lol.

>>45663
Interestingly, I dont think plate armor is even supposed to exist in Middle-Earth. I am currently re-reading LOTR, and any time armor is described, it is mail. In general, the aesthetic of the setting at should be early middle ages.

>>45665
That makes sense given Frodo's mithril shirt is supposed to be notably good. The setting is highly anachronistic though. Despite supposedly taking place in mythic pre-history Bilbo's front door has a brass knob.

>>45666
Why would brass knob be anachronistic?

>>45667
Brass wasn't developed until the early modern period

They also mention golf in The Hobbit lol

>>45668
According to wikipedia brass was used even in bronze age.

File: 1745259416449.jpg (313.99 KB, 1038x1393, 1656600646457.jpg)

>>45650
Had some short ears for a ren faire once, is was fun. I wish I was an elf.

File: 1745267228612.png (725.83 KB, 1452x1036, ClipboardImage.png)

>>45661
>medieval period was all gloomy so fantasy medieval land must also be dark with people drenched in mud

>>45673
It's not even supposed to be medieval really. They can make it look however they want. It's also a case of thinking dark and gritty = prestige TV for mature audiences such as myself.

>>45674
Indeed it's not medieval. Taking literally not even ASOIAF or The Witcher are medieval because the societies they represent are only aesthetically and superficially influenced by Europe: there's no confluence of Germanic migrations interacting with an old Roman power to create something new.

Someone probably studied this but it's a 'medieval' aesthetic made true by an stereotyped view of the Middle Ages that seeped into entertainment media.

File: 1748584313063.png (1.29 MB, 1080x813, orcs1.png)

>>45661
Does that orc's armor have spines inlaid in it?

What a bizarre detail. Orc armor was chaotic in the Jackson movies, but it was all functional armor.


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