Discussion of the Hobbit, Lord of the Rings and the other works by J.R.R. Tolkien.
Just wanted to revive some of the old threads that were nuked by the server transfer.
>>45039>Isn't LOTR like Dune in the sense that a lot of shit is based on internal visionsI wouldnt say lot of, but Eye of Sauron specifically yes. It was like that in the first movie too. Making it a literal giant Eye stuck on top of Barad-dur is one of the worst things about the trilogy (closely contested by having the army of the dead single-handedly win the battle of Minas Tirith).
I think the palantir scene is just a leftover of earlier plan of giving Sauron physical form, that was abandoned because Peter Jackson is a hack with no sense of subtlety (his interpretation of Mouth of Sauron was a guy with a really big mouth, I mean cmon).
I despise the Hobbit movies, but if I had to give it a compliment, I think the imagery of Sauron there, where the "Eye" is a firely aura around him with his silhouette in the middle for the iris, is really cool. But then he starts talking and all my goodwill evaporates, because he says shit like "Kingdom of Angram will rise", and "Age of Orc has come". He is currently rebuilding Mordor, the seat of his power, why would he possibly try to intimidate the White Council by mentioning his plan to rebuild some decommissioned realm half a world away from where the War of the Ring was to take place? And since when is Sauron an orc ultranationalist, they are the lowliest among his servants, cheap cannon fodder, he doesnt care about them.
>>45041>since when is Sauron an orc ultranationalist, they are the lowliest among his servants, cheap cannon fodder, he doesn't care about them.Yeah. According to Tolkien's letter #183, which clearly states Tolkien's conception of Sauron motivations fully. Sauron wanted to be a "God-King' and basically rule every "rational creature" with "absolute temporal power".
Comrade [Jk] Sauron was no "orc supremacist". He believed in his own supremacy of being an "immortal angelic spirit" and wanted "divine honor" from everyone
Source for video clip taken from Tolkien youtuber the red book
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVyjPIkQ-iA >>45042>>45038>Barad-dur I had an epiphany on this recently. I think the concept is gnostic, and it symbolizes a broader movement in humanity that represents a general anti-human, pro-power sentiment. It's hard for me to put it into one word or label because the nature of symbolism (and all the more true for powerful symbols) is that they represent multiple things.
So, the LOTR universe is meant to be about an endless "good vs evil" narrative, where "good" represents a positive affirmation of nature, and "bad" represents a negative reaction to it. Where the positive man gives up his own ego for the good of the realm (ie Frodo), the negative man attempts to sacrifice the whole realm for himself (Sauron). These are polar opposites. In fact, Frodo's place in life (as a nobody) even reflects this polarity, since Sauron has a place of supreme power. They are different in every way.
However, there was clearly a high attention to detail while sketching out the whole created world, and Tolkien himself has said that he based it all on history. It's to key understand though that he did not like to make simple allegory. I think this would apply primarily to the specifics of his plot but less to the general shape of the plot (shape is more abstract, less allegorical) and less to allusions that don't directly impact the plot (ie by describing eras of timekeeping, such as the time of the lamps, by describing the elves' awakening periods, etc). I think his world building stuff may be direct references in many cases, and we also know he was an expert in ancient scandinavian, so he may have read content in books that were completely scrubbed from latin and english records (thanks the Jesuits).
>>45038In the book, it is mentioned multiple times how Sauron would use something called the "Eye", the "Eye of Sauron, or the "Lidless Eye" to view the various things happening around Middle Earth, and either avoiding the attention of the Eye or deliberately trying to gain its attention are part of the book. There are people who will swear up and down that it isn't some kind of magic eyeball and its just a metaphor for Sauron's gaze and the big magic eyeball at the top of Barad-dur is just an invention of the movies, but there's a part in the last book that suggests that there is, in fact, a big burning magic eyeball peering out of the top of Barad-dur, albeit a significantly less dramatic one.
>Far off the shadows of Sauron hung; but torn by some gust of wind out of the world, or else moved by some great disquiet within, the mantling clouds swirled, and for a moment drew aside; and then he saw, rising black, blacker and darker than the vast shades amid which it stood, the cruel pinnacles and iron crown of the topmost tower of Barad-dûr. One moment only it stared out, but as from some great window immeasurably high there stabbed northward a flame of red, the flicker of a piercing Eye; and then the shadows were furled again and the terrible vision was removed. The Eye was not turned to them: it was gazing north to where the Captains of the West stood at bay, and thither all its malice was now bent, as the Power moved to strike its deadly blow; but Frodo at that dreadful glimpse fell as one stricken mortally. His hand sought the chain about his neck.Which sounds a lot like an actual magical eye to me.
>>45451>>45242I think the Eye of Sauron is literally the sun. Imagine in ancient times that someone told you the sun was a living being, a god, and he could see you all day while he was up. This is a key part of Abrahamic religion, right? This idea of an all seeing, all powerful entity that punishes.
On top of that, the "Sauron as a king" idea is just that some ancient kings were crowned as "son of the sun", or avatars of the sun itself. It's the Pharaoh.
Now, Tolkien's history with Mordor and Sauron goes to before our recorded history. Morder according to his maps is roughly modern day Romania. The very characteristic mountain range around it makes this clear.
So, what Tolkien is actually saying is that solar worship and the idea that the king is the avatar of the sun started here, and this religion of solar worship essentially led to the evils of empire building, as the above anon explained. It's anti-human.
>>46259These proto-Romanians of 5000 BC created the Tartaria tablets, which is proof of their sophistication in that age. They were the products of steppe tribe invasion into Western European agricultural lands. This is probably the story of "Sauron" in LOTR who creates "orc slaves" out of "mud". This is the steppe tribe creating mutts out of the Romanian agriculturalists and turning them into slave soldiers for the empire. Everyone else then had to contend with this mighty economic power.
So, those proto-Romanians are in the same region as Greece and Anatolia. I think they moved southward and into the Mediterranean, and they became the Minoans, the Phoenicians, and the "Egyptians" (King Menes being the first Pharaoh, although some archaeologists believe Egypt existed for thousands of years before this, so King Menes and his descendants maybe didn't build the pyramids). Then, they moved eastward and became or conquered the Sumerians and Babylonians (and Mesopotamia at large). I believe the Babylonians called them Gutians in their age, so it didn't all happen instantly – they didn't conquer the whole world in one swoop.
In the end, it isn't even a single group of people that we can label so much as it is an influence from this ancient period that is felt by many people today, although some people try to claim they descend directly from them. I believe this may be the root of Judaism, but it's also in Hinduism. The whole thing about being the solar avatar is at the root of this all.
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