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File: 1608526718424.jpg (142.77 KB, 1280x720, LordOfTheRings.jpg)

 No.11615[Last 50 Posts]

Noticed a lot people talking about Tolkien’s works and philosophy. So, I created a thread specifically dedicated for that and other things related to it, like the movies and games.


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The fact that Nazis are into Tolkien’s works has always surprised me. I can understand at a surface level that Tolkien based his works off Norse/Anglo-Saxon culture. For example, the Rohirrim are just straight copied from Anglo-Saxon Culture, hell they even speak Old English. But excluding that, Tolkien was hard-core Catholic and he himself described the Lord of the Rings as a Catholic work “unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision”(Letters of J.R.R Tolkien, letter 142). Secondly, The Nazi’s asked Tolkien about his “Aryan” heritage. He wrote back to them saying that his family was German, and Tolkien said that their real reason for asking him about his heritage is to see if was Jewish. Which he replied he was not, but he did call them “gifted people” (letter 30). Finally, Tolkien stated his huge dislike of Adolf Hitler “I have in this War a burning private grudge against that ruddy little ignoramus Adolf Hitler. Ruining, perverting, misapplying, and making forever accursed, that noble northern spirit, a supreme contribution to Europe, which I have ever loved, and tried to present in its true light.” (letter 45)


Nice thread
Since Tolkien and Lord of the Rings are pretty good stuff I'm going to link Tolkien posts from the Fantasy thread
The Last Ringbearer >>1214

Tolkien's politics and 'racism' in his story and his life >>4152

Elf Politics



Are there any communists in lotr?


Could any solid LotR lore experts redpill me on who the hell Ghan-buri-Ghan was? When I read the third book, his appearance seemed like a total non sequitur. Is there any lore to him, or why is he even in the story in the first place?


Of him specifically, nothing besides what is given in the book. But he was part of the Drúedain, who are related to men. They are described as being shorter and fatter than regular men, and overall have primitive and wild culture and appearance. They are good natured, and have always fought on the side of good. Unfortunately they have been persecuted by wicked or ignorant men, who see them as evil based on their appearance. Because of this persecution they are very secretive and keep to themselves and a couple of stories have shown them to use magic, that ordinary have no knowledge of.

One theory about them that I find interesting in that they could be men who weren't corrupted by discord caused by Melkor during the Ainulindalë (The Music of the Ainur)


It's a fairly medieval setting so I don't think so. The hobbits are bourgs, the Humans are feudal, the Goblins are high-way robbers and normal elves are a stagnant group of elites while Wood Elves are semi-tribalistic anprims. The dragons are artificial spirits given chimeric forms and the Orcs are dominated by strength for leadership.


Neanderthal parallel?
Pretty forward thinking of Tolkien if so, and an interesting way to work them into the mythology.


>The hobbits are bourgs
Nah they're more like kulaks


I doubt it. It is more likely it is just a coincide.


I mean, knowledge of them had proliferated quite a bit by that point, and Wells even wrote a story of them as 'barbarous beasts' by 1911.
Which does fit in well with the typical views held by Tolkien's 'ignorant men;'
granted, the idea that Neanderthals were effectively humans in terms of their brainpower is a relatively modern understanding,
so perhaps he really did just get lucky in his depiction of related but slightly different from men primitive humans.


I prefer the Hobbit story over LOTR, it lacks the whole "good vs evil" army shit and is an interesting adventure of fantasy


There both fun reads I find. But I do prefer the Lord of the Rings as I writing and world building to be better.


Maybe dwarves. Their society somewhat resembles Juche (Longbeard dynasty look like Kim dynasty). Industrial cooperatives, single working-class mostly, brotherhood and not so racist to other races (except orcs and goblins).


>>11744 (me)
Well one anon already said that >>1196


the amazon series is going to suck ass


Isn't it supposed take place in the 2nd age? If so that's about 3 and half millennia time period to cover.


Supposedly Tolkien stated that one of his regrets was that he didn't give the Orcs much sympathy and that they were treated like slaves that often didn't get a choice rather being evil.

I've always found some of the most interesting parts of the Lord of the Rings is when the orcs get to talk and share some of their thoughts, like when merry and Pippen are overhearing the three different groups of orcs bickering (Urak-hai from Isengard, Black Uruks from mordor and the smaller orcs from the Mines of Moria), when Sam overhears Gorebag and Shagrat, or in gorgoroth when Sam and frodo overhear the large soldier and the tracker…. It makes the orcs more than mindless drones and I think it would have been cool to hear a lot more of that and for them to be "humanized" a bit more… Like when Gorbag refers to frodo being left for dead as a "typical elf trick", it implies they have a morality that looks down upon leaving a wounded comrade


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If you're after a scholarly defense of Tolkien from the progressive/left I really love this book from Patrick Curry.

yes was thinking the same thing recently, when going back over the part where they are talking about Shelob. Those orcs are not mere animals, but are fully fleshed people with thoughts and feelings

I'm a huge tolkien nerd, but it's one of the faults with the legendarium that he didn't really give as much depth of thought to the Orcs.


Honestly Orcs are quite well expanded upon in World of Warcraft, as I've stated before in the Fantasy thread.

Something I've read in a rather amusing crossover fanfic of Middle Earth and Naruto by Neon Zangetsu expands on this a bit by having Orc mentalities explained by a rule of strength and by instinct due to how harsh their lives are in general, there is no time to be picky about what you eat or asking questions before attacking because it could cost them their lives.


Apparently it might have sex and tiddies in it????!!?
Everyone's gotta be fucking GOT now I guess jesus christ.
and a shit article too:

And I'm no prude, but this is not the place for that shit,
jesus fucking christ it's TOLKIEN, TOLKIEN



Wait there actually IS a Netflix series?! I thought that was just a joke!


Gimli destroys the ring

I wish this happened TBH


you mean Amazon


>sex and tiddies
The weirdest Tolkien ever got with sex is the Túrin Turambar having incestuous relationship with his sister Nienor Níniel, neither of which were aware of. And upon finding out both ended their lives.


The last part is honestly unreasonable, TBH.


Can't wait for the gay sex between Frodo and Sam and the accusations of homophobia if you don't think they were gay all along.


If only you knew.


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Thought I should place this quote here for future reference.


I did post about that, though thanks for the complete quote m8.


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Posts related from the Dindu Nuffin thread, mostly regarding Orcs and their 'evilness'


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>jannies spoilering something that's just erotic and not even explicit
You wouldn't do this if it was a straight couple, unironically smdh.


Ironically they still have NO General Rules or Board rules put up despite someone already creating some basic rules for /hobby/ for the mods to put up and recently rules for the site


I always wondered what Smaug would do if he had the One Ring.
Gandalf states:

“the dragon, Sauron might use with terrible effects"-
The Lord of the Rings - Appendices (Durin’s Folk)


File: 1608526744194.png (1.01 MB, 640x2156, Moving trees.png)

Tolkien seems to both love and hate Shakespeare

Pic 1
"Tolkien loved this line in Shakespeare: 'Macbeth shall never vanquished be until Great Birnam Wood to high Dunsinane Hill shall come against him.' He loved the thought of marching trees. However, Shakespeare had other ideas. He just makes an army cut down tree branches so they look like a marching wood."

"Tolkien thought this was rubbish and invented Ents. And the march of the Huorns on the orcs at Helm’s Deep."

_"The prophecy about who would kill the witch-king parallels the prophecy about who could kill Macbeth – “No living man can kill me,” sneers the witch-king, while Macbeth “cannot be slain by man of woman born.”

But Macbeth dies due to a loophole in his prophecy – apparently a man born by C-section is not born of a woman (No, I don’t get this either). Tolkien thought that was lame, and made his witch-king die at the hands of a woman."_ (And a hobbit, a man but not of the race of men).


OP here I'd spoiled it my self.


>Something I've read in a rather amusing crossover fanfic of Middle Earth and Naruto by Neon Zangetsu expands on this a bit by having Orc mentalities explained by a rule of strength and by instinct due to how harsh their lives are in general, there is no time to be picky about what you eat or asking questions before attacking because it could cost them their lives.
That actually makes a lot of sense. Much better than it just being their nature.


Sauron's view on Gandalf and the rest of the Istari.

If he thought about the Istari, especially Saruman and Gandalf, he imagined them as emissaries from the Valar, seeking to establish their lost power again and 'colonize' Middle-earth, as a mere effort of defeated imperialists (without knowledge or sanction of Eru). His cynicism, which (sincerely) regarded the motives of Manwe as precisely the same as his own, seemed fully justified in Saruman. Gandalf he did not understand. But certainly he had already become evil, and therefore stupid, enough to imagine that his different behaviour was due simply to weaker intelligence and lack of firm masterful purpose. He was only a rather cleverer Radagast - cleverer, because it is more profitable (more productive of power) to become absorbed in the study of people than of animals.

History of Middle Earth, Volume X "Morgoth's Ring", Chapter 5 Myths transformed.


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Fëanor is the real bad guy of the Silmarillion. If it was not for him the forces of elves, men and dwarves would have not been severely weaken to the point that would have needed to call on the Valar.


I find it somewhat amusing that this thread is just solemn discussion rather than the typical LOTR meme-posting that used to be done.


he'd just get more gold

dragons are fiending for that gold high


A liberal homosexual feminist Protestant was teaching a class on George R.R. Martin, known hack

”Before the class begins, you must get on your knees and worship Gurm and accept that Planetos is the greatest fantasy setting of all time even greater than Arda!”

At this moment, a brave, patriotic, British WW1 veteran who had served 1500 tours of duty on the Somme and understood the necessity of war and fully supported all decisions made by Butcher Haig stood up.

”What are the linguistic differences among the peoples of Westeros?”

The arrogant proddie smirked quite schismatically and smugly replied “There is the Old Tongue and the Common Tongue, you stupid warmonger”

”Wrong. There should be hundreds of dialects. If the Wall is 8000 years old as you say, how can the Wildlings and Northmen understand one another?”

The HBO shill was visibly shaken, and dropped his chalk and copy of A World of Ice and Fire. He stormed out of the room crying those redditor crocodile tears. The same tears redditors (who today live in such luxury most can afford sex changes) cried when Missandei was beheaded. There is no doubt that at this point our sola scriptura-faggot wished he had pulled himself up by his bootstraps and become more than a garbage pulp fiction fan. He wished so much he could die a glorious death in battle, but he had sworn to always be a draft dodger!

The students applauded and became Tolkien fans that day and accepted the Pope as their Lord and Master. A giant eagle named “Thorondor” flew into the room and perched atop the flag of Gondor and shed a tear on the White Tree. Beowulf was read in the original Old English several times, and Eru Ilúvatar himself showed up and enacted Aragorn's flat rate tax policy across the universe.

The Lutheran was fired the next day and sunset found him squatting in the grass, groaning. Every stool was looser than the one before, and smelled fouler. By the time the moon came up he was shitting brown water.


Top tier shitpost copy-pasta



Haven't read it, but looks intriguing.


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Easily one of the best versions of this pasta, well done.


The Valars were pieces of shit. If they were more proactive nothing of this shit would've happened.
If they cared about humans as much as they cared about Elves, the humans wouldn't be fully exposed to the wiles of Morgoth, convincing them that the world is ruled by a cruel god.


Pretty sure that the Valar, as spirits with Iluvatar wrote the entire history of Middle Earth in song and the parts sang by Melkor became all the suffering and death and chaos he and Sauron would bring. In light of that there arguably wasn’t anything the Valar could do as it was all predetermined anyway. Plus Morgpth encountered the elves and men before the other Valar had, hence how he corrupted some each time.


>Eru Ilúvatar himself showed up and enacted Aragorn's flat rate tax policy across the universe.


To be fair, the Valar were probably freaked out about killing large numbers of "fragile" men in the upheaval. They didn't have to worry about that when they went to drag Morgoth out of Utumno since neither elves or men were born yet.


Agree. Bilbo is a badass. I liked the movies by Peter Jackson too. Maybe that makes me a brainlet.


It 100% does, but we can still be friends.


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The new animated Lord of the Rings seems promising, it's premise is interesting being a distant prequel and Kenji Kamiyama who is one of the directors is well known for his involvement in Patlabor, Jin-Roh, Ghost in a Shell series and more.


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>anime LOTR


You do realize that the animated Tolkien productions of the past were also animated in Japan right?


Yeah but they weren't "anime". I'll give this a shot but if it's going to be done in a modern meme anime style I'm probably not going to be super into it.


>they weren't "anime".
If it's animated on the same level as GiTS I think that'll be fine, and besides they're calling it anime because it attracts the weebs.




>obviously fake
Haha indeed


Yeah that would be cool. My concern is that it just looks like every generic anime made today.

I actually wouldn't mind a 2D animated movie that looks like a smoother version of the old Rankin-Bass movies, where it has that kind of weird, old-school fairy tale look, but they don't really make them like that anymore.


>it just looks like every generic anime
Wait, have they released concept art/trailers?
>a 2D animated movie that looks like a smoother version of the old Rankin-Bass movies
Yeah that's not happening. I knew a dude on DA who was part of a reboot for Flight of Dragons but it got cancelled with only some refurbished concept art he had posted on his account left.


Nothing released yet, it's just what I'm worried about


So what's the sitch?


I agree. It's pretty gross, but it's not like they were aware of what was happening. They seem awfully quick to assume culpability for something that wasn't their fault and didn't harm anyone.


>The Valars were pieces of shit.


Tolkein supported Franco during the Spanish Civil War. He is literally a christcuck fascist. This thread is cringe.


>muh Christianzzzzz
You sound very asshurt. Cope harder



Anyone think that Amazon's new LOTR series going to be a massive dumpster fire? I mean it's written by the same guys who wrote Star Trek:Beyond.


Yeah probably. It's pretty obvious the Tolkien estate doesn't care about the quality of adaptations. The original LotR trilogy being good was basically a fluke.


Lately I've found myself singing along to some of the poems from Lord of the Rings, namely:Song of Durin, Fall of Gil Galad and the Ent Marching Song




Tolkien is overrated beyond belief. He wasn't even original. People act like he invented the fantasy genre for some reason.


>He wasn't even original
He is, having created several languages in his verse and having only inspiration from Faustian and pre-Faustian Germanic mythology. Nobody has ever claimed he created it all on his own, but the Hobbit or LoTR are not emulating any specific mythological legend of Northern Europe that he based his ideas off of.
>People act like he invented the fantasy genre
In essence he is a founding father of the modern concept of fantasy genre, thus numerous media are heavily based on his foundation of fantasy, from Warcraft to DnD.


Oh boy, a video about Amazon's newest cash-grab, er, I mean, new diverse show for LOTR.


They actually released it? I thought that shit died off. LMAO.


File: 1645150480139.png (8.98 MB, 4800x2400, ClipboardImage.png)

So the TV series appears to be parodic-levels of crap, but the animated prequel; War for Rohirrim has hopeful concept art, fingers crossed ladz!




Yeah, but on the other hand, they do seem to literally eat eachother.
Tolkien kind of dropped the ball fleshing out their society more.
Same with the Easterlings


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>YASSSSS diverse dwarf queen! SLAY!
>What? The lore says that female dwarves have beards? Ew. Gross. We can't do that. That would raise questions about gender and might genuinely queer up the show a bit, or make it stand out in a unique but faithful way that might turn mainstream audiences off. We can make the dwarf a black woman because that's popular now. We're not here to push boundaries. We're here to shit out an adaptation and make money.


Can someone please explain to me why mumakil would be taking part in the siege of Edoras


>female dwarves have beards. Ew. Gross.
I mean, yeah.


because they look fucking awesome


God fucking damn it looks so bad


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>hey dude, do you want a humanitarian relief package
>ok jesuse christ dude calm down


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>Everyone starts complaining about there being a black dwarf lady
<Everyone ignores the fact that a character heavily advertised in the promotional material is an OC Donut Steel like Tauriel


On the topic of Ponomarkenko, they're a total glowie and even used a fake Pentagon advisor called "David Jewburg" for their articles (mostly cause he thought most slavs aren't going to realize the jape due to it being an English term) >>>/edu/10009

>Everyone starts complaining about there being a black dwarf lady
Because they're idiots, ironically the main issue is the lack of a beard.


Her being black doesn't particularly matter, but the fact that they are willing to sUbVeRt ExPeCTaTiOnS by doing colorblind casting but they won't give female dwarves beards because of gender norms shows that being woke is purely performative and that they don't give a shit about the source material at all.


>won't give female dwarves beards because of gender norms
Stupidest thing is, gender norms are fine in general, but this literally goes against the gender norms of dwarves.


File: 1647520064338.mp4 (3.38 MB, 720x720, sexy shelob.mp4)

What kind of loser portrays Tolkien's work accurately and in the spirit of his novels?


There's not that much material for what the show is going to be about. Of course they're going to be doing OC donut steel characters.


>lotr is catholic

NO! There's nothing universal about it, no redemption, no universal love.

Like Tolkien said, LOTR is a mythology for England. And indeed it is. A mythology not for any past England, like he wanted, but for a twentieth century fascistic, genocidal inbred empire with all of their racial prejudices put into the book.

LOTR is exactly how fascists and the nazis saw and see the world, and Tolkien is just another fascist. Don't believe that midwit about alegories, everyone with eyes can see what he meant with orcs, elves, mordor, etc.


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He literally had every single race of non-monster humanoid on one side and then the arabs on team monster.


Orcs are portrayed how they are because the story is written from the perspective of Frodo/Bilbo, who are themselves quite racist, even toward the "good races." A lot of the portrayal of the more monstrous beings has to do with the prejudices of the characters describing them. The fact that elves, men, dwarves, and hobbits all manage to cooperate within the fellowship (Gimli and Legolas especially) is meant to tell you these kinds of barriers can be overcome in time.


shut the fuck up dude, just say you like it even if it's fascist trash

There's no fucking excuse for Orcs, go read the Iliad and learn how a real epic treats enemies.


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>Muh racist orks!
>reddit spacing
Yeah go back you fucking snowflake. You are also utterly ignorant of the Illiad if you're saying this unironically. You're comparing a legendized war between men caused by the meddling of gods to an utterly fictional work based on the mythology of Northern Europe. Elves are the forest spirits of said lore and Orcs, if you had any basic comprehension are born from a group of corrupted elves that turned to evil and served a the physical manifestation of a literal GOD of evil.
>LOTR is exactly how fascists and the nazis saw and see the world
<Tolkien is just another fascist
Yeah the fascist that sent letters to Hitler telling him that his actions made him ashamed to be a Northern European. The fascist that expressed himself as a primitivist and monarchist.
Your "muh allegories reel" shit is, as usual projected racism of liberals.

>every single race of non-monster humanoid on one side and then the arabs on team monster
You people really haven't read the books you're bitching about, have you?


The Orcs are the Kin of Cain. In Christian Mythology, after Cain murdered his brother Abel and was cursed by God, he left to wander the Earth with his wife Lilith, and sired many children with her who also bore his curse in their blood, often becoming monstrous or rising from the grave as undead when neither Heaven nor Hell would have them. When the Germanic tribes began to Christianize, they began to associate many of the monsters in their own mythology with the the Kin of Cain. If Tolkien's goal was to to create a sort of mythology of England, he couldn't ignore how popular and widespread the belief in the Kin of Cain was. Similarly, "orc" was a word that had spread around Europe meaning monster or demon, almost certainly a reference to the Roman God of the Underworld Orcus, and showed up in Beowulf which is where Tolkien probably first encountered it, and since Tolkien was a massive Beowulf fanboy, he also likely wanted the main baddies to be Mini Me Grendels (who was also stated in the epic poem to be one of the Kin of Cain).

Lord of the Rings has pretty big Christian influences, and it doesn't take a scholar of theology to see that the plot is influenced by the Christian apocalypse, with the Anti-Christ (Sauron) seizing the world in the name of Satan (Melkor) and, naturally, having the Kin of Cain (orcs) leave the shadows to gather under his banner.
The primary race supporting Sauron, other than orcs, are the "Black Númenóreans", the exact same race of people as Aragorn, Boromir and the citizens of Gondor. They're just not seen in his novels beyond characters like the Mouth of Sauron because they're implied to all be dicking around in Mordor. The books at least state that the Easterlings were noble, but tricked and lied to in order to secure their loyalty to Sauron. The same courtesy isn't extended to the Black Númenóreans.


>writing a letter to “the nazis” stops you from being racist


He openly denounced it and the nazis that espoused racial 'science'. He did not have any racist writings and specifically dismissed any attempt to try and project human races onto his fictional works.
>inb4 hiding it
Tolkien lived in a time that had people lynch blacks in the South with no repercussion and the British Empire gassed African villages that refused to bend a knee to their rule, People hardly would care about a racist caricature had he intended it, but he did not.


>There's no fucking excuse for Orcs
The orcs are demons, are you suggesting that every work with demons in it is fascist?


I’d say the racialism in Tolkien’s works have nothing at all to do with the orcs, but rather the fact that only the whites of the West are heroic freedom fighters fighting to ensure Morgoth and Sauron do not rule Middle Earth, the peoples of the East and the South are said to have mostly bowed down to Morgoth’s rule and then Sauron’s after him. Of course there are also other iffy ideas, like the obsession with bloodlines and royal blood, how the Numenoreans have a “superior” bloodline to all other human cultures.
Biggest issue is that the non-white cultures of the world are all servants of Sauron….


The "West" doesn't refer to some kind of Middle Earth equivalent of Europe, the "West" of the Men of the West refers to the island of Númenor, which is, for all intents and purposes, the LotR version of Atlantis. Nor were they all necessarily "white". Some were, but others were supposed to have been of darker complexion, like Aragorn himself who is described in the book as brown skinned.


reminder that mordor is the ussr and lotr is fascist. Also the only reason they're putting blacks in the show is because people know it's a fascist book loved by fascists and the people who own the IP don't want to be lumped with fascists.


Aren't Orcs RINGED elfs in Tolkien's lore?


Orcs are corrupted elves, made into a twisted mockery of their former selves by Morgoth. He did this with many creatures. For instance, the trolls are a corrupted, twisted form of the ents.

They have a pretty close correlation with the Kin of Cain from Christian Mythology, which was treated as a lesser type of demon beneath Lucifer and fallen angels, and it's what Grendel was stated to have been in Beowulf, and Tolkien was a massive Beowulf fanboy.


Do you have any evidence that Mordor was supposed to be the USSR?


sweet tumblr's here


>the peoples of the East and the South are said to have mostly bowed down to Morgoth’s rule
where does it say that


<Implying that fascists don't simply latch on to anything that seemingly on the surface supports their ideas because they are a bunch of shallow retards that can't look deeper into the works that they like.

Tolkien himself hated fascists and was against their race science. Amazon is only making that LOTR series out of cynical greed. Why do you liberals support corporations so long as they have the "right" races or genders in their products.

You liberals are exactly like the fascists you say you hate.


>a story that is explicitly about different races with thousands of years of enmity, distrust, and cultural differences working to overcome it all and set the hate, isolationism, and prejudice they've been clinging to for hundreds or even thousands of years aside, develop an appreciation for one another and their differences, and collaborate in what they all realize is an almost certainly hopeless task all for the slim hope of achieving a final, lasting better world for everyone
>is fascist


>single working-class mostly
When there is nobles as the ruling class, it's not "single-class", it's a two-class system.


>buddy cop story


literally incoherent and self contradictory nonsense


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it cannot be resolved


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guess that's why it's called fantasy literature

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