/hobby/ - Hobby

>>20970
Critical support for House Harkonnen's Anti-Imperialist planetary liberation struggle against the settler-colonialist House Atreides.

I know that the "Harokonnens are good guys" posts are just trolling, but to be honest bugs me as well with how Atreides are supposed to be good. Bitch, all of the families are decadent shitter nobles who would see billions die during their petty squables (like how Harkonnens obliterate large parts of the Arrakis city). What they needed to do was show that Atreides were just as much bickering noble idiots as everyone else.

>>20975
But Duke Leto risked his own life to save those spice harvester workers and prioritized lives over profits they are the lesser evil!!!!11

The worms are the good guys.

I dropped the book halfway through the first chapter where the main character gets "tested". I don't like really like these heavily concept based sci-fi books like Heinlein or Asimov or Le Guin. I feel like it's a cope for how unimaginative the genre really is.

>>21050
Ok I regret including Le Guin in there. She does genuinely play around with the spess stuff.

>>20570
>>20572
I forced myself through Euphoria for whatever reason and it made me fucking hate her. Such an annoying, boring actress.

>>21006
I eat bugs for breakfast

>>21053

why yes i eat bugs how could you tell?

>Herbert was a strong critic of the Soviet Union.
Cringe
He seems like a anarchist/libertarian with his politics just being anti-government

>>21070
Didn't stop him from defending communist and Soviet-sympathizing workers when Joseph McCarthy's initiative went through. Make of that what you will.

>>21050
Same. It doesn't really feel sci-fi it feels like medieval fantasy with science aesthetic. I always get the feeling that these authors have the Anglo brain and it makes me think it was written in a stuffy library with a bunch of bronze shit a globe and colonial maps, like they are the son of a Baron or a Prince who was educated in "ministering" a business and learned about geopolitics from an aristocratic perspective. Its like they view the world as an RTS video game.

>>21114
*laughs in sandworm*

>>21113
Based. Sci fi should be told from the perspective of the commoner who deals with the social consequences of the future world most directly, not somebody at the top who's merely overseeing things where reality is largely an abstraction and access to high technology is an assumed entitlement.
Dune is deconstructing this kind of mythos to be fair.

>>21142
Ghost in the shell is NOT this and it is still remarkable. In fact, the cruelty and coldness of the police main character just make it better.

Kinokos sinss

I've come to tell you how wrong you all are.





Very wrong. Oh so very wrong.

>>21143
Huh? Did we watch the same GiTS? How is Motoko cruel? She sacrifices herself to stop a terrorist; GiTS has one of the most sympathetic portraits of AI police bots you can find in any fiction. Typical jap/anime bullshit glorifying militarism and ignoring all social conflicts and motivations to focus on muh cool gun fights and pseudo-Einstein protagonists.

Saw new Dune last night, I liked it, although it makes me want to go read the book(s) properly since my 5th grade teacher had me read it and I only vaguely understood it

>>9852
It's got a lot of good aspects but it kinda lacks the more material 80s adaptation, and the ending and final third of the movie feels too similar to James Cameron's Avatar (and it's Cliffhanger).

I feel like Dune is a very confused series, or maybe it’s just how people interpret it that seems confused to me. A lot of people claim Paul is bad because of his jihad, but he continuously suggested the jihad was out of his control. He chose it over joining the Harkonnens, but ultimately the Golden Path was going to require immense misery and bloodshed. It seems like choosing to help the colonized Fremen conquer the empire and achieve their dream of terraforming Dune was marginally better than joining the Harkonnens.

But people say the Fremen lost their culture in the process! I don’t see how their culture was going to be maintained when it was based on the destitution of the desert planet, and terraforming Dune was upending the whole material basis of that culture. And then when you get into the actual fulfillment of the Golden Path by Leto II you’re talking about universal tyranny, but Leto II didn’t even want to do what he did. He wanted to die, he hated it and was immensely bored by his own presience. He only did it to stop the apocalypse, and the vision of humanity’s extinction was even independently corroborated by Siona’s presience, so it isn’t like he is definitely making it all up. All indications are that presience is very powerful, it’s the whole basis of space flight without computers.

So I dunno, I just don’t get it. It seems like Dune has themes of fate and the question of how individual will plays into history, but in terms of the many people who seem to want to construe it as condemning Paul and Leto II, I don’t see it. Paul and Leto II saved humanity from extinction at great personal sacrifice. Paul’s messianic status may have been a lie of the space witches spread on Arrakis a long time ago, but in a way the lie became a reality and Paul couldn’t do much about it. He never had much of a choice, neither did the Fremen, nobody did. At most they had the choice of just not participating, but through presience Paul and Leto II saw that doing that was it’s own kind of choice, the choice to allow the Fremen to be oppressed by the Harkonnens or even allow humanity to perish by killer machines. Presience made them experience the predicament of being unable to be truly free from consequence and causality. I know Herbert himself hated leaders and all that shit, but Paul only really subverted notions of the uniquely powerful or heroic leader by being largely powerless at the same time as being a messianic emperor. I don’t think the message was that what he did was “bad”, it’s that he wasn’t as powerful as he appeared. Leto II very explicitly taught Herbert’s philosophy that leaders and centralization were dangerous and humanity would be more resilient against catastrophe if it was more diverse, which was probably majorly based on ecological stuff he was interest in.

>>21183
does anime tend to glorify militarism?

>>21239
what anime? Anime is a medium - a certain style of the macrocategory of animated film/series - and has numerous genre, including culture specific ones endemic to Japan (Shounen, Shoujo, Seinein etc.)
Depending on this and on an individual basis of an anime and its creator, they can be pro or anti-military, see >>>/anime/10545 and the Attack on Titan thread and compare to Miyazaki media, communist anime (thread) and other stuff, there's no single tendency.
Shounen is expected to be pro-military, yet many of the most iconic anime of the genre such as Gundam or Naruto have an overall theme that, despite the cool action, war fucking sucks.

I liked it, but I think a series would be much better. I have three criticisms:

1. Not mentioning the Butlerian Jihad obscures to the viewer completely why their tech is the way it is, why you need spice melange for instellar travel, why hunter-seekers need nearby "operators", etc.

2. Many characters are killed off barely after they are established. Piter De Vries isn't even noticed by people unfamiliar with the book and has like 30 seconds screentime, despite him being such a depraved and villianous character. Feyd-Rautha should have been introduced already. Duncan Idaho and Gurney Halleck are barely introduced, there is zero emotional impact on Idaho's death unless you just like Jason Momoa. Kynes must be a fucking joke of a character, literally introduced and then dies like 10 minutes later.

3. The Bene Gesserit are barely explained. The spacing guild was not explained, although we might see that in part two. Generally, it feels like all the factions more act like an aesthetic backdrop without really explaining their roles and ambitions. Also, giving House Atreides fucking Nazi aesthetic was a horrible design choice.

>>20666
Sorry but Jodorowsky turning Dune into Stranger in a Strange Land is hard pass for me. He would have been better off adopting that book instead of turning Paul into an actual Jesus figure. One of my biggest appeal for the novel was how cynical it was.

>>21557
Jodorowsky's ideas about how to do the plot may have been wonky, but given the scope and influence of the story, it merits a radial interpretation of the material to make something bold and novel of its own. However, I think that anon was talking more about the psychedilic elements which were almost totally absent from Villynoov's version. It gets a lot of praise for feeling grounded and real but that's almost the polar opposite of what the story is dealing with. Maybe part 2 will make good on that part and cash in on the groundedness of part one by subverting it, but I doubt the studio would be ok with that.

>>21239
On the contrary, the plot of SAC second season and Arise is that military bad!
>>21558
I would not have minded Jodorowsky adaptation in the visual department. Big departure from books kinda works at times, as I like Veerhoven's take on Starship Trooper. But, IMO, the thing is in Dune people fuck. People are still human at the end engaging in all human desires despite a veneer of haughtiness.
The whole immaculate birth of Paul because Jessica converting blood of Leto into sperm and getting impregnated as Leto was castrated prior to Paul dying physically (getting killed by Feyd when it was the opposite) and spiritually becoming cosmic entity with everyone, I think it takes away that human element. The crux of the saga is humanity despite its tribulations endures with its all vices. That was point of Bene Gesserit's Gom Jabbar test. Which is why the Golden Path was such a brutal step. Despite having a larger than life figures, its characters are still human at the end.

Jodorowsky discards that for his larger than life vision, contorting the story into R.A Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange land. He was aiming for a visual journey that would alleviate the viewer into some religious frenzy. And he is aware of it, which is why in the documentary he uses rape analogy, which also ends up alluding to his own origin as a child out of marital rape.

Would I have mind that if it ever materialized? No.
Pretend that it would be adaptation of the book not something inspiring into something entirely different like Starship Trooper? No.

>>20606
Well more generally imperialism in the middle east.

>>21280
I mean the red hawk is their symbol and they look appropriately military.

Just watched it. I enjoyed it. Overall, it felt like a straightforward adaption but perhaps missing some of the more trippy and political aspects of Dune? Most evident in the costume design, where everything has a hard, military, efficient look in it. The anti-imperialist stuff is there, but not explored that much. Ecology is also there, but not really explored. I really liked the presentation of the Imperial officials, when they got off the ship on Arakis. That was fun and campy. The Sardaukar doing human sacrifice on a massive scale in a city designed for it was also very cool.
I like the presentation of Paul's ability to read the future, the flux and uncertainty of it. I don't think it was like that in the novels? All the characters were written how I remembered them from the books, and I was about to soyface when Keynes pulled out her hooks. Totally forgot about people riding worms. I liked Jessica, felt the actress did a good job capturing the conflicts of being a mom/doing a science experiment.
Overall, felt like it stayed very close to the source material. Looking forward to the next one.

Lots of people seem to agree it would have worked better as a miniseries. So here's a question for the thread: what would the ideal structure for a screen adaptation of the Dune franchise be?
>How far into the story should they go before stopping?
>How should they break the books into seasons?
>How long should episodes be (roughly) and how many episodes should each book/season get to do the material justice?

>>21571
GEOD is a good stopping point.

>>21557
Too bad. Another copy of Jodorowsky's Dune bible sold at auction recently and it looks like it'll finally be getting scanned soon. https://twitter.com/jamieswb/status/1462814157338775560

>>21574
>finally be getting scanned soon.
ive seen a lot of it somewhere befor

>>21568
Yeah and its worth mentioning that in the 1984 dune they have a Tsarist Russia aesthetic.

Making Spice Russia - birchpunk

>>21280
>Kynes must be a fucking joke of a character, literally introduced and then dies like 10 minutes later.

Yeah that one's weird. They genderswapped Kynes and then cut the meal scene(dinner) with the smuggler and arrakeen big honchos that would give a lot of context and worldbuilding with a small budget compared to fucking around with CGI.

Another thing that bothers me is that they seemed to have cut all of the eugenics out. That's what Dune is about. It's "What if humanity went full retard and took the (shittiest) path of solving every problem with eugenics, the story." So now the Bene Gesserit are just feminist witches holding out against unenlightened feudal patriarchy, the male "Kwisatz Haderach" cannot be explained because political correctness. And I suspect the rush through the betrayal arc is because political correctness would not allow the depiction of the protagonist as part of the feudal, deeply classist society with cynical aristocrats openly admitting it's all smoke and mirrors to keep the rabble busy, miserable and subservient. Oh and the Fremen need to be kept in the noble savage(but oddly progressive, instead of pragmatic) unexplored territory.

It's like they wanted to make a modern adaptation but in the process ended up gouging most of the meaty bits for political correctness until what remains is a generic story with winks to book readers that satisfy no one.

Book readers are reminded of all the movie does wrong by omission and non book readers don't get the reference at all because it's given no context within the movie.

>>21909
> So now the Bene Gesserit are just feminist witches holding out against unenlightened feudal patriarchy,
Wait
How the fuck did you get the notion that the Bene Gesserit were good in the film? They come off as devious as fuck, help to orchestrate the death of Paul’s house, Paul’s mother is shown as right to have gone against their wishes, and Paul himself despises them for setting him up to be their puppet.
> the male "Kwisatz Haderach" cannot be explained because political correctness
Or….crazy thought…they’re saving the explanation for the second film? Like ffs in this movie they only even vaguely hinted at what is supposed to make Paul special, all they have given thus far is that he has some Bene Gesserit abilities and can also see the future vaguely
From what is shown it’s pretty clear they’re going to explain his abilities in the next film since the ending shows Paul having visions of multiple possible futures
> And I suspect the rush through the betrayal arc is because political correctness would not allow the depiction of the protagonist as part of the feudal, deeply classist society with cynical aristocrats openly admitting it's all smoke and mirrors to keep the rabble busy, miserable and subservient.
Again, it’s pretty damn clear the Atreides are not truly liberators to the Fremen, Leto’s men clearly see the Fremen as savage subjects and nearly murder the first few Fremen they encounter who they had specifically contacted to come for diplomatic negotiations, and Leto himself is only contacting the Fremen to have an edge against the Harkonnens and the Emperor who he knows are trying to kill him
Also why the fuck do you want to watch a movie that’s 90% exposition exactly? You realize a film adaptation is not a BOOK? Film is a visual medium, most people do not want to see a film consisting of people constantly explaining shit to other characters who should already understand the situation in-universe
Like did you want a scene where Paul is directly told what spice is used for even though he should already know? Paul isn’t exactly on a hero’s journey here.
> Oh and the Fremen need to be kept in the noble savage(but oddly progressive, instead of pragmatic) unexplored territory.
Again, how exactly did you get this interpretation? The second the Fremen encounter Paul and his mother traversing the desert, they sic sandworms on them and then plan to murder them for their water, afterwards Paul is forced into a duel to the death against a guy he just met, and again, there is going to be a second film that depicts the Fremen jihad
> It's like they wanted to make a modern adaptation but in the process ended up gouging most of the meaty bits for political correctness until what remains is a generic story with winks to book readers that satisfy no one.
It’s almost like they’re making a sequel and most people actually enjoy twists, revelations, and no bland exposition in a movie

>>21909
You are a retard

>>21914
>Film is a visual medium, most people do not want to see a film consisting of people constantly explaining shit to other characters who should already understand the situation in-universe
Excuse me, without the knowledge of the Butlerian Jihad, which is mentioned in the book in the first fucking chapter, you won't even get why their tech is so weird and why they use swords.

Take the scene with the hunter-seeker drone for example.
>the operator must be nearby!
Why? The audience is left clueless as to why we need mindslaves to operate things.

>>21914
>Film is a visual medium, most people do not want to see a film consisting of people constantly explaining shit to other characters who should already understand the situation in-universe
Ditching the internal monologues was unironically a huge mistake. They should have learned from what David Lynch did right instead of trying to be as different as possible in execution.

>>21918
>Excuse me, without the knowledge of the Butlerian Jihad, which is mentioned in the book in the first fucking chapter, you won't even get why their tech is so weird and why they use swords.
Why the fuck does the audience need to know? And furthermore, how the fuck would this be conveyed to people who should already know the history of their own universe without making the main characters look like retarded with a shit tier exposition scene? Like why the fuck does Paul need to be told shit he should already know as the heir to House Atreides? Idky book fans struggle to comprehend that films typically do not have an ongoing narration, and almost no well-done narration is a boring fag giving exposition about plot.

>>21920
Dude, there are core aspects of the entire story that you can't just guess or whatever. Should LotR have started in the Mines or Moria?

In the movie, Paul literally watches documentaries on Arrakis and they fit in nicely into the fabric of the movie, so come the fuck on.

I am usually a big fan of "show, don't tell" and Dune is already weird enough, but you do realize there is barely any substance left for non-book watchers to apreciate besides the visuals? Excuse me for expecting something a bit more high-brow than Star Wars which is just just self-explanatory fantasy transplanted into space.

>>21925
Also, they are covering like… 1/3rd or less of the first book of a saga. A first book which is itself an (in-medias-res?) introduction. There is so little meat in the movie. They have actors, they can have the actors speaking. AS I said before the book provides two scenes of motly dialogue to establish context without needing to verbalize the internal monologues. The meal scene with Kynes and the Arakeen VIPs and the verbal interactions with Stilgar's Fremen before the fight with Paul.

But they din't want to go there because the Fremen wont fit very well to politically correct sensibilities if reproduced faithfully and will get scorned by book readers if they don't. Apparently their budget is better spent on desert and explosion's CGI and fighting choreography. So much so that they skipped the whole "finding the traitor" arc and with it the entire in explainer for Hawat, Idaho, Jessica&Leto and their situation on Arrakis to rush to the fighting scenes.

I'm not asking for some stringent pedantic adherence to the books. I read the books after watching the movie and it's such a shame how little they did to condense the already sparse explanations given in the book. It seems to me that they went the other way, that they though it they remove just a little bit more context, they could pass it for a generic story that needs no worldbuilding.

I'm 80 pages into Children of Dune, why do people hate on this book? It's better than Dune Messiah so far, and even that wasn't a bad book by any means.

>>22086
Dune Messiah isn't even a sequel, it's literally more or less the conclusion of Paul's arc that began with the first book, it's a great book.

>>21926
After watching the Lynch version it's very obvious that they tried very hard to be as different as possible and it really suffers for it. The worst example is that where that version over-explains things the new version explains nothing.

>>22087
It's so cool that Paul can run the universe but the possibility of being a single father drives him to suicide, pimp as fuck

>>21203
>Golden Path
So I'm reading through God Emperor right now and the problem I'm having with the series is that the more things are explained the less sense they make. And the whole "Golden Path" that Paul didn't have the balls to take is like peak nonsense justified by prescience.

>Oh sorry the prescient character says so! x99
For everything.

Also the eugenics is starting to get on my tits. I get the eugenics as a plotpoint to illustrate the ass backwards, stagnation of an empire stuck in spice based technofeudalism. But even then technology is lampshaded as an easy way out the moment anyone develops a way around shield technology or brings back computers for FTL navigation.

It seems every plotpoint revolves around some part of "human nature" that needs to be bred in or out of the human species. So the threat to humanity justifying the Golden Path feels even more contrived. Like if there is genetic/psychic memory, what is the justification of the Bene Gesserit or the Tleilaxu or the guild navigators not to explore that memory to gain a massive edge with the scientific knowledge from before the Butlerian Jihad?

But nope it's all about breeding the right prophets, warriors and administrators. Then ultimately traumatizing the entirety of interstellar humanity so that it's collective genetic memory will direct them unconsciously away from the timelines that result in extinction. At no point is this access to literally the entirety of human knowledge and experience, even mused to be of any use other than securing technofeudal power so that one can do interstellar level eugenics.


Why? Because some prescient dick that claims to be acting with the perspective and wisdom of every previously lived human despite never acting himself outside of character for the present times says so. and because of it every character and faction must be retards.