Discuss.
Dune discussion general.
https://youtu.be/jJj2yHM3d3Y>>9852chalamet is delicious.
The lynch one is kino campyness included.
It will most likely be very liberal at key parts.
The film so far looks like generic hollywood sci fi, i dont put much hope into it. Not enough surrealism.
>>9873Movie trailers are usually outsourced to third party studios so I wouldn't make guesses on the soundtrack. Hence why they're all the same.
>>9902The Lynch movie was compressed, confusing and awful, you should have instead watched the 3 part Dune miniseries, it's much better and more faithful to the book. Frankly, you don't have to read the book if you watch that series.
As for what it's about… it's kind of long, but Dune is two books in one. The first is about a feudal galactic system, and within that system there's a noble family that is forced to take over a desert planet (Dune), who are then betrayed by the emperor and the former family that had owned the planet. The son escapes into the desert.
The second "book" is about how that foreign born son "dances with the natives," wins their trust, and twists their local religion to become the messiah of their prophecies and to wage a guerilla war to retake the planet. The desert planet matters because it's the only planet in the galaxy that produces the spice, which is a necessary ingredient for faster than light travel. It was an allegory for the dependency of foreign empires on controlling oil rich countries in the sixties/seventies, and a lot of the words in the book sound Arabic. The ending was that the war got so out of hand that the emperor came to Dune himself to try and finish it, and the princely protagonist has the natives launch a surprise attack, and then he forces the emperor to make him the new emperor of the galaxy.
There's a lot of other threads mixed in that end up in later books, but that's a summary of how the series began.
>>9890Jodorowsky’s version is the only good one. Not this all gray bleached out garbage.
Good bless the frogs for spawning Moebius.
>>9902Deconstructed hero's journey. Dune is a hero's journey story as written by someone who explicitly hates heroes. The surface reading of Dune and what is actually happening are frequently opposites of each other.
It's also a reply to Asimov's Foundation trilogy. Interestingly there's a Foundation series coming out:
https://youtu.be/FZd3xUDudy8Foundation takes place in a declining empire. A "psychohistorian" named Hari Seldon has discovered a way to use mathematics to predict the historical development of human societies on large scale – which is now possible given the galaxy-sized scale of the empire. Seldon predicts the empire will collapse and plunge the galaxy into thousands of years of darkness. The solution is to create a "foundation" that will accumulate human knowledge, preserve it, with the hope of shortening the dark ages and allowing the galaxy to recover from this very long "depression" in a kind of behind-the-scenes planning.
Herbert, being more of a libertarian, didn't like this idea. A big part of Dune is that plans laid thousands of years in the past run out of control. Paul Atreides, the protagonist in Dune, is the result of a breeding program by an order of space witches named the Bene Gesserit to create a superbeing which they can control and take over the galaxy. It doesn't quite work out that way.
>>9916>Herbert, being more of a libertarian, didn't like this idea.The anon who wants to know more here. But isn't this contradicted by the later novels though? From what I've read in the synopsis, his son specifically uses a really long-term plan that he predicted in order to eventually save mankind (Golden Path). Also from what I've gather this plan was highly brutal, so it also seems as if the books are saying that the ends justify the means as well.
>Asimov and Foundation seriesI'm a bit of a booklet when it comes to OG sci-fi, but at least the premise sounds quite Marxist in its view of reality, that a person could in theory manage to predict the future historical developments by absorbing present material information. Was he somewhat of an /ourguy/?
>>9860I heard that they gender bent Lyet Kynes, the leader of the Fremen. Thankfully he is a minor character but it's especially egregious that, out of all the characters, they would make him a woman. Because the Fremen are basically an arab mixed/berber civilization, and a woman being the leader of such a society? Yeah, it pretty much shows how completely out of touch liberals are with the exotic cultures they fetishize. They like the aesthetic and different skin colours of far-away people but they put under the rug all their cultural aspects which do not align with liberal ideology.
>>9873It's a cover of Pink Floyd, you philistine!
Yikes.
Is there a bigger enemy to cinema than this man? All of his “films” are bombarded with pseudo imitations of other directors: Prisoners is a blatant remake of David Fincher’s Zodiac. Enemy borrows elements from Alfonso Cuaron’s Prisoner of Azkaban, and Arrival, the biggest offender of all, plagiarizes the moody peril that comfortably resided in Christopher Nolan’s Insomnia. Don’t forget about Sicario either, which is a shamelessly nuanced attempt to hijack the cinematic language of Michael Bay’s Bad Boys 2.
Denis Villeneuve doesn’t contain a single original thought. Blade Runner 2049 was a culmination of hackery and evident of the intellectual dullness of his previous films. The man is simply a proficient illusionist. He knows who to surround himself with. For instance, he employs the likes of Roger Deakins to photograph his movies with IMDBlike sensibilities in order to hijack the approval of impressionable film buffs looking for the next piece of “cinema” to fawn over. Then he calls up Ryan Gosling, still enjoying the indie spoils of his Drive fame, in order to drown 2049 in arthouse approval.
And Dune is next on the menu.
Denis’s Dune will receive the same cultural reception as George Lucas’ Star Wars prequels, Timothée Chalamet as Paul Atreides having a strikingly similar casting notion as Hayden Christensen as Anakin Skywalker. The prequels can be forgiven as misguided art though. Dune will be the anti-thesis of that, a film crafted by a hack at the peak of his illusionist abilities.
Villeneuve is a miserable hack whose movies are propped up entirely by Deakins meme cinematography which gets the r/movies and IMDB pleb crowd all hot and bothered. It is the death knell of Cinema. One of the biggest trashmasters working today, a hack's hack. This is hot pocket the director. Cheeto dust: the man.
His flicks are a bad joke; an insult to the filmic medium; a gob of spit aimed at all that is good and great about filmmaking. Another polished post-fincher gritty popcorn director.
pretty worried, but heh, at least they can do special effects now
>>9853shouldnt be too hard
>>10111yes, the fact he was a godlike being wasnt known at first, the bene gesserit basically just make up useful legend/religions on all planets they send their agents on, so they can be used later as political tools if needed, in a very cynical view. They don't litterally spell out their plan of ultimate messiah as religions
>>10138>>10142hard disagree, although the first one is the best by far, the serie stay good and have plenty of great plot/philo until the death of leto. i'd even say you miss a lot dune concepts if you stop at first one
>>10279Honestly I didn't find anything about it "weird", it seems like a typical 70's era scifi with LoTR level worldbuilding. Dune + Messiah are basically one book and is a must read for any scifi fan, Children is a fucking slog and NOTHING happens except the last few chapters, and Emperor is Herbert trying (and failing) to write a smarter than human character, albeit with some really fun moments along the way. I tried reading Heretics and gave up around 100 pages in, it was just more of the same and it didn't really jive with me.
If you want some real fun, just read Emperor going in blind. If you like it, go back and read the first 3, if you don't then you've just saved yourself a lot of time.
>>10380>LoTR level worldbuildingIt’s nowhere near that though. LoTR in a single book established almost the entire cosmology, history of every countries, their languages, and every known norms of the genres. While Dune is just a cool universe that have a lot of things kept vague on purpose by Hebert for later fleshing out through multiple sequels. And it’s legacy is much more limited, which has only Warhammer emulating it (GW stole from everybody because it started out as satire before retards and company shills ruined it with Space Marine wank).
>>10389How else are you going bait people into buying when they explicitly knows that their author is long dead.
>>10404His work has a lot of classic libertarian themes and an idealistic look at voluntarism, something fashoids and the US military love to emulate. It’s not a surprise when his work is party mandatory reading for them.
Also lots of his protagonists are super smart, ultra competent individuals. A great way for burgers to have a power fantasy.
>>10416Because for Americans especially, libertarianism got completely taken over and shaped by the ruling class from the start. It’s also the first place where the term liberal becomes the definition for petit bourgeois landlords and the people subservient to them rather than left wingers.
The opposition to tax became the opposition to keeping the private interests of small time capitalists rather than the opposition to a capitalist state in general.
>>18633>Orientalist>white saviorok I could see why someone would think that but
>queer-codedHow? Does Timothee Chalamet just have a gay looking face or something?
>>18635Different anon
I think the actor they hired for Paul Atreides doesn't fit, he is supposed to have been intensely trained in personal combat from an early age, he should look like he's got more stamina.
Also the Fremen should have leathery dried out skin because they are denied enough water.
>>18635>How?The Baron being homosexual?
Him raping male family members being Canon?
Duncan Idaho losing his shit at the Lesbian Fishspeaker orgy?
Herbert disowning his own gay son?
>>18636agree about paul
the fremen is a little harder to pull off, and unlike the harkonnens they are supposed to be approachable to the movie audience so you can't make them too weird
>>18637i don't think you understand the "coding" part of queer coding
>>19500In that moment at the banquet, all the stress is going to him, I guess in the whole Aristocratic hierarchy, the atredies are pretty low, to be used and fucked over by the Harkonnens and the Emperor.
He sees how an end to class society could potentially alleviate his social ills and how he lives, all the important people he has to schmooze with, the expectations people have of him, etc…
At the end of the day at an individual level, it seemed to me Leto really loves his family and wishes Jessica was his wife.
Maybe the life of dukedom was never for him.
>>19696Who the fuck cares if the author was a conservative or not. Tolkien was a conservative however his work never gets put under so much scrutiny even though its dogwhistles are much more on the nose than in Dune. Jacobin goes full clown show here:
<It’s a guilty pleasure for the more radical left, and there’s no shame in that. Nobody longs for a return to a hackneyed, bland socialist realism. I'm glad Jacobin allows me to consume "problematic" fantasy and sci-fi, thanks Jacobin. And then out of nowhere making the jump to fucking socialist realism, are they fucking serious?
>>19696 Homosexuals,
Bureaucrats
And bullyboys
Increase before
Each fall into darkness.
Just saw it. It was alright. As another anon said, it has problems with pacing, at times it seems very rushed and like the director just wants us to get to a certain point. As if someone is giving you a quick rundown on context before they tell you a story. That is its biggest flaw.
Some complaints and nitpicks:
>everyone wears black, both Atreides and Harkonnen. Harkonnens should be red, and the Baron should be wearing red, not black
>I don't like how agency is taken away from Paul. I can remember three instances of it. 1) in the pain test, it is Lady Jessica who recites the litany of fear, not Paul. 2) when Stilgar spits in front of the Duke (at the wrong point in the discussion, I might add), it is Duncan, not Paul who recognises the gesture and says thank you. They all spat, which was pretty stupid I thought. 3) when flying through the storm, Paul hears The Reverend Mother's voice tell him to "let go", after which he lets go of the controls, turns off the engine and goes to sleep. In the book, they go through it, thanks to his skills, plus effects of spice on his already sensitive mind.
>should have spent more time on exposition of Arrakis, and show how wasteful the Palace and outsiders are, not just reduce it to a "they oppress us monologue" at the beginning of the movie.
>not enough exposition of Paul's struggle within him.
>Kynes (casting choice was fine) gets killed by three Sardaukar, instead of being left in the desert. That monologue he has in his thoughts before he dies should have been included.
>when Sardaukar attacked the palace on Arrakis, they weren't wearing Harkonnen uniform, but Sardaukar uniform
>Princess Irulan subplot is completely left out, unless they're gonna do flashbacks in the 2nd movie
>Paul doesn't have an arc, really, neither do we feel "the fall" of Atreides because we don't really know how big they were. There's a throwaway line by Leto where he says "other houses look up to us", but we don't really see them settle in and rule Arrakis, it just seems that as soon as they get there, they're betrayed and attacked
overall 7/10
>>19703I agree. It should have been 3 hours.
And another thing. Jessica is fucking crying almost all the duration of the movie. I don't remember Jessica from the book like that but maybe I am wrong.
>>19697lol
how would Dune be different if a communist wrote it I wonder
Saw it yesterday. I liked it, surprisingly.
No naked Timothee, unfortunately.
Aesthetics on point. I saw the lynch movie and miniseries before this (many years ago), haven't read the book, but I generally agree with anon's points here
>>19703 Some things it could have improved, other things it got right. The movie ends half way through the story compared to the miniseries.
>>19876Are you aware of Hamilton by Lin Manuel Miranda or some shit.
It recuperates WHITE MALE american history and makes it woke. The founding fathers are reimagined as slave-owning PoC.
>>19892>No naked Timothee, unfortunately. We'll just have to wait for
Wonka I guess.
BBC misses the mark
>here is a scale to Denis Villeneuve's Dune that borders on the biblical. Monolithic spaceships hang like moons in the heavens. Worms the size of skyscrapers swim like sharks through the desert. Extreme wide shots frame the barren planet of Arrakis as a vast unknowable ocean of sand, its dunes fluttering in the wind like waves. And yet it is not only size that makes Dune one of the most striking science-fiction films of recent years. It is how it marries that grandeur with slow, atmospheric and considered filmmaking – where shots live long, and scenes breathe freely.https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20211011-denis-villeneuve-the-sci-fi-director-of-the-21st-centuryI think the writer just wanted to write that kind of article. I was myself ready to have that opinion because I liked Arrival. But Dune just fell flat.
>>20394I liked Dune better than Arrival because of the idealist kumbaya ending of Arrival. What a liberal movie.
>>20408Herbert thought that the name "sounded Soviet" at first but then in the official canon they go back to a Finnish noble family.
>>10389>this is dumb namingStrange way of spelling "good branding". :-/
>>10400>>10404>>10414>space marinesIs not a question about IF but WHEN we'll see them. What I really liked about the Sardaukar was the scene where they silently inserts using anti-grav. Not the same thing as in the Dune-games where they are basically walking tanks.
I really like the E S T H E T I C S, and the wire from the rocket launcer to the breastplate is cute. Cute but probably useless.
But unless you really get the drop of someone and manages to hit ALL your targets AT ONCE, you're pretty much a walking target for a marksman with a 50-cal.
Also, does anyone please have a link to the sacrifical scene in DUNC?
>>10416You could substitute it with "Culture is for a man what maternity is for a woman." When a woman becomes a mother, her place in society is pretty much set. Men have no equivalent to maternity, so therefore they must constantly strive for something.
>>20566>DUNC⊃∪∩⪽
lol yeah they did spell it dunc
How the fuck do you take something as unique and interesting as Dune and make it feel like a cookie cutter Hollywood movie?
It sucked.
>no room for characters to breathe or get established
>seriously most of them get introduced and then die without more than a few lines
>not one of the story beats felt like it landed because the pacing is so rushed there's no time to properly set anything up
>you've heard of trimming the fat, but here they trim out the organs, skin, and most of the muscle leaving just bones and sinew
>it feels like you're watching a generic "second act where everything goes wrong" movie in a trilogy except without the first movie to set everything up and establish it
>worldbuilding barely exists, almost exclusively pointless cameos to be "I KNOW WHAT THAT IS!" moments for book readers
>the worldbuilding that's there is bland exposition, like some nerd telling you about how cool the world of Dune is
>some of the most important/unique concepts don't even get glossed over and go unmentioned, like the Butlerian Jihad (which probably makes the technology level seem confusing to the average audience)
>art direction is the most phoned-in embarrassing shit I've ever seen, like the designs for everything was filtered through several layers of studio executives telling them to make it more familiar to movie audiences
>The technology looks more like what average scifi would show for the 2100s not the 10100s
>The TV miniseries version is unironically less bland with design
>tries to hard to do the "dingy and used" look from classic Star Wars but applies it to things that shouldn't look like that, like Caladan (even Star Wars is better at this, compare Tattooine to Cloud City or the Death Star)
>action scenes are pretty much incomprehensible between the quick cuts, wild swinging, and flashing shields
>CGI shitfest in general. To be expected these days but if you can show us anything you want and you're making DUNE at least make it interesting. This is almost how I would expect Chris Nolan to make Dune. Actually it's worse.
>BORING cinematography for most of the film, only a few shots felt like they had careful thought put in, and they were almost all in the trailer
>none of the sequences felt like they were planned out well, or like too much had to be cut for time
>Paul's emotional low point breaking down in the tent has a really awkward cut that causes a continuity slip-up with the actor's facial expression and emotional state and it feels like a chunk of the scene was just chopped out
>rated PG-13 and boy does it show when they have to pointedly take the camera away exactly at the moments when seeing the violence would give the scene the weight it needs
>Dialogue feels too contemporary. It's almost Joss Whedon territory with the way they handle humor.
>performances are serviceable at best, but a few characters feel like the actors haven't quite grasped the characters and are just trying to read their lines with the right emotions *cough* Duke Leto *cough*
>In an unusual turn for him, even Hans Zimmer phoned in the score, and instead of something over-the-top or with a really memorable gimmick (the wailing woman thing is so overplayed), he just didn't fucking bother to score some of the most important moments at all and they're just awkwardly quiet. They don't even muffle the sound effects for dramatic silence – you hear the natural sound in the scene being all un-cinematic and it feels like you're watching a behind the scenes or something unfinished.
>ends on genuinely the most hackneyed shit I've ever seen in my fucking life, Chani literally turns to the camera and says "This is just the beginning" as Paul, Jessica, and the Fremen walk into the desert sunset.
Fucking embarrassing cringe adaptation tbh.
I watched this for free and I want my time back.
This material needs to be a miniseries format to even begin to do it justice.
Everyone saying it's good is higher on copium than the navigators are on spice.
It's not as bad as Suicide Squad but they should do the same thing and reboot this immediately with different people in charge, but this time as a miniseries.
>>20598you can have my piss bro
>>20603>But they kinda did get the Duncan character right, and they really nailed the ornithopters. And they showed how high frequency vibrations can liquefy sand, and that made a believable worm scene for the first time.These are mostly true but they don't negate any of the problems.
Duncan like everyone didn't get enough time to properly establish his character. It felt like Jason Momoa shot his part in 2 weeks. What was there was fine and most of getting him right was the casting choice.
The method the Ornithopters use to fly is the right way to do it, but they're said to
fly like dragonflies not to
be dragonflies. They're described as being insect-like IIRC which seems pointedly different and implies that they don't look like dragonflies. Designing them as dragonflies is the laziest way to interpret them. IMO it's the best design in the film and
still a great example of how uninspired everything is.
Yeah the sand effects look cool but it's the kind of stuff you can see from kids messing around in Blender. You mostly see that with isolated pockets where the characters are standing. I was expecting them to do bigger set pieces with sand considering the scale of the worms, but I guess they just didn't have the budget to run a computationally expensive physics simulation.
>but it was believable this timeThis is what I mean by copium. The whole movie felt like checking boxes. They
technically made a Dune movie and the effects looked real/convincing (as if that's an achievement lol). It's just lacking any of the inspirational elements or effort that you would expect from somebody adapting the story out of some artistic drive. It's unfair to compare to Jodorowski but he's a good example of somebody who wants to do it for the art and tries to make it unique. This feels like they did it for the money and tried to make it acceptable. It feels very standard and of its time, which is fine for some science fiction, but not appropriate for this. Hell, look at the color grading on the shots you posted. This is such a boring contemporary thing to do: make the whole shot one color. It might work for Arrakis, but that Caladan scene isn't
under the sea. It's just overcast. Why does the forest look blue? They could have at least darkened it to give the shot more contrast. This is the same director who did Blade Runner 2049.
And still this is without rehashing the
flaws. This is just a fundamental problem with the approach they took to the film.
>>20606>is this story an allegory for british imperialism lol?yes, overtly (although there's more going on)
>did frank read hegel?IDK, doubt it
>>20385>The personal journey of Paul is a good kid who becomes a cold hearted and brutal religious leaderalso, a cynical, depressed, broken man
and also, how even with basically omniscient super power, he isnt able to fix shit because
1. on some level its not possible, things like the jihad cant be stopped without causing even worse shit, because the universe is so complex even a great man with a cheat code apparently cant solve everything
2. he just doesnt have the shoulders for it, and cope out to let his children bite the bullet for him and have to do the dirty work for tens of thousands of years
>he definitely had a massive distrust of governmentsI mean, he also recognize their power, necessity and usefulness. The bene gesserit are pretty funny on that front ; nobody trust them, yet nobody can do without, and a lot of the best characters work for them
>>20606>is this story an allegory for british imperialism lol?yes, spice could be considered literally as spice from India or figuratively as oil. Considering it is required for certain types of space travel, yet also consumed as a drug would be, you could say spice is a stand in for both.
>did frank read hegel?Maybe, but you can obviously see the resemblance between the muadib and the ubermensch.
>>20610the offworlder bookfag is a face dancer, do not fall for his tleilaxu tricks
denis is loyal fedaykin
>>20658>Imperium of Man in WH40k struggles against a much smaller empire like the Tau because they are spooked by advanced technology.
I mean, sure. But more important reasons as to why the IoM hasn't completely genocided the Tau would be the former's never ending existential struggle against much more threatening foes
>>20653po-tay-to po-tah-to
Maybe preserving the spice is a better option, but the desert an the worms are where the spice comes from. So while they don't seize the mechanical MoP they are controlling the original source and doing what they choose with it.Also a based example of the relationship between base and superstructure.
>>20615>ne of my favorite things about Frank is how he wasn’t about that “great man” bullshit.Can you explain this? Just because he says great men are bad doesn't mean he doesn't think history revolves around the actions of individual choices.
>Bene Gesserit>matriarchal secret society that controls history from the shadows and invented messianic religion to manipulate the empirehow is this not blatantly anti-semitic.
>inb4 yeah but chapterhousenah he added late in his life as insurance against the claim
>>20666 (Hail Satan)
It's Dune made for today's generic sci fi audience. One of the worst things about it was how straightforward the visuals were. No interesting camera work. Nothing unusual done with the visual effects. The religious and psychedelic components are almost completely absent from this version. We'll see what part two looks like, though.
>>20673Denny Veenoo is starting to feel really gimmicky with the cinematography, especially those "wide landscape with a random humongous thing slightly off-center" shots.
>Someone said that this movie is "every frame a painting"Someone should remember that film and painting are different mediums, one of the key differences being the frame in film has all sorts of movement at its disposal. The camera in this film barely moves at all, and you literally never see any tilting, zooming, or other effects that could help convey the scale or shape of things better than a (mostly or completely) static shot. It's called a
move-ie for a reason. I came to watch
moving pictures not an art gallery.
>>20670>I don't know, they looked exactly how I imagined it when reading the book.Hence "straightforward." For something like Dune they should have got more creative. Like
>>20666 said Jodorowsky had the right idea.
>I am not a cinematography nerd so I don't know about the camera angles.Not going to try to explain how all of it works but the gist is that they barely used any of the techniques available and stuck to a pretty limited set of looks. It's a bit like they wanted to make sure that in most shots you could clearly see the set and the actors clearly and sacrificed expressive or engaging camera work for the effect of looking at a (scenery) painting.
>>20668>Bene Gesserit>it's da joooooosthis is in your head, it's not in the Dune novels
I read these novels, they don't contain any 1to1 allegories
>>20713missionized'
The Bene Gesserit are more like a Catholic church order.
>>20712Yeah
Bene Gesserits can be compared to the spratan wives, vest virgins, or Catholic nuns. Maybe all 3.
>>20708kek
>Gurney not editeddouble kek
Slightly surprised they announced it this early. Would have expected them to keep a lid on to encourage more people to go to theaters on the "they will only make part 2 if there's enough demand!" logic
But I think Brolin already blabbed about starting principal photography next summer so it this was already known.
>>20715wtf I love Denny's Venue now
>>20819It was lightyears better than any music in the actual film, as some of the lines in the trailer which were at times wildly different from the film.
At this point trailers are a more developed form of art than movies. If you think about it, it's almost like the trailer is the real movie that you consume. Because you see the trailer and that's what convinces you to pay. Past that point the movie just has to exist and contain what the trailer shows so people don't cry foul and demand their money back. Trailers are a highly developed medium that's refined by psychologists and shit to maximize their effectiveness. It shouldn't be surprising that they are catchy and stick in your head. That's the point and the process has become extremely refined.
Going back and rewatching that trailer has made me realize that like many other recent movies, the trailer is actually a better piece of entertainment than the film. It's also pretty much a complete but condensed version. It handles the tension and payoff better, and you get practically the same level of characterization for everyone that you get in the actual movie (other than Kynes and Yueh who barely appear and Jessica who actually has some depth that's not in the trailer). They even blew their load by showing most of the worm scenes in the first trailer. The bones of the plot are all right there. It's not even a teaser, just a more compact and tightly paced version of the film. It's even got a bigger share of its running time devoted to characterization.
Imagine if movies actually made good on the experience the trailer promised.
>>20820Speaking of lightyears and ebin trailer music covering a popular song for a scifi movie trailer…
Here comes a more visually interesting science fiction movie using infinitely weaker source material.
Is it a coincidence that this trailer dropped right after Dune's opening weekend in the US?
Maybe the upshot of the movie is that it encourages more space fiction. >>20846> if that’s your idea of goodno no no
not good
better than this shitty adaptation of Dune
Okay, so I just watched the New Dune last night and… I don't know, it felt really uninspired to be honest. If anything, the best way I can describe it is this - unecessary. It literally doesn't do anything better than Lynch Dune in terms of story telling appart from adding more bloat. So much bloat in fact that it had to be fucking split into two movies. It feels very Srar Wars E9 to me, where it seemed that the director decided to listen to the advice of the retarded YouTube film "critics" that rant about muh logic. This time specifically to those who shat on Lynch Dune because "it wuz confuzang" or "duzn't maek sens to me" and "lmao wut iz habbenin in dis zene". Idk, maybe I am just a transcendat being, but Lynch Dune when I watched it a few years back, made perfect sense, even though I had no prior context of what Dune series were. The new one just adds in a ton of unneeded crap where characters repeat ten times that "emperor is playing us", "Harkonens will attack", "you are the chosen one" and so on, which just makes it tedious. The only good thing it really did was the tent scene where Paul actually gets a glimpse of the future and we see the "oh shit, my life is fucked and I will become a monster" side of his character
>>20874Everything in this post is wrong, like the complete opposite is true in every aspect, lmao
>literally doesn't do anything better than Lynch Dune in terms of story telling appart from adding more bloat. Except for casting better actors, being more faithful to the book, not adding some shitty gimmicks, having better special effects and cinematography and having a coherent movie plot. The Lynch movie is fucking trash, he even said so himself but yeah if like 20 minutes of diffuse Wizard of Oz style monologs followed by 10 minutes of people standing in a room telling each other to shut up and be silent while wearing shitty costumes then I guess the Lynch movie is for you.
>The only good thing it really did was the tent scene where Paul actually gets a glimpse of the future and we see the "oh shit, my life is fucked and I will become a monster" side of his characterSo you compare Dune to Star Wars yet the scene you liked the most is the one that is the closest to a Disney/Marvel-tier battle scene which only gets a pass (from my side at least) because it's literally supposed to be a. surreal nightmare scene.).
>>20879From the trailer vs the film we also know they shot different versions of some scenes, like the gom jabbar one has different lines and Timothee plays it differently when his hand's in the box.
>Do you often dream things that happen just as you dreamed them?>[pause] Yes. Not exactly.or
>What's in the box?>Pain.>AAAUAAAAUGGHHHHIt's likely that a director's cut would significantly expand a lot of the movie. It's pretty obvious they were cutting things for time and some scenes just feel rushed or even incomplete.
>>20847>trailer I watched is totally awesome look at da bright lights Capeshit brain rot when you think trailers represent the whole film because that’s what capeshit trailers do entice you with bright shit and explosions
Good job you are a capeshitter, hence capeshit opinions are nonsense.
>>20886>>20846>>20888You are just coping with the fact that a glorified toy commercial shat out by disney will probably have better visuals and more imagination (among other things like better pacing) than a huge budget blockbuster adapting a seminal science fiction novel with a bunch of talented people, likely because the studio wanted to keep it unchallenging for the normie audience.
>uninspired, copies appealing shots from other moviesWhich is still better than the fucking NOTHING we got in Dune.
The real cringe is expecting anything of value from hollywood. It's all consoomer trash and it's more appropriate for them to make cash-in toy advertisements than to try adapting something actually good. Don't try to make the industry something it isn't.
I have no expectation that Denny will do anything interesting with the juicier second half of the book (or if they do a 3rd movie like he wants to), even though this movie should in theory have bought a lot of goodwill from the studio.
>>20877The only thing outstanding about the movie is the source material.
>>20887Notably almost all the political intrigue is completely absent.
Instead we get shit like Gurney and the Baron growling shit like "tHeY'rE nOt HuMaN tHeY'rE bRuTaL" and "KiLl ThEm AlL"
The adult characters get very little time or respect other than mom and dad because they want the zoomer audience to watch for Timothee and Zendaya (who is herself in the movie for about 2 minutes of screentime).
>>20734>>20841>>20812picrel
>>20844kek nice webm
Kino scenes:
>Anything with the Sardaukar>Anytime the Atreides house theme played Cringe scenes:
>Mapes(?) screaming when handing Jessica the knifeseriously wtf was that I know it's in the book since I just read the first one recently but that's something that could have been taken out
>Chani's perfume commercialsliterally doing nothing but filling space and showing off her hair and smile it was so pointless. once is ok but then they do it 10x more throughout the movie.
>Anytime Jessica cries She's much weaker in the movie than she's portrayed in the book. In the book she's extremely focused and inner turmoil is quickly buried but here she breaks into tears every 5 minutes it was extremely disconcerting.
Everything else was kind of average. Not especially terrible but not amazing either.
Overall verdict: 7/10 mostly due to how well Denis managed to adapt the un-adaptable. I'm glad we didn't get Princess Irulan as a voiceover spoiling everything since that would be super cringe as well.
>>20912>ChaniIt's especially funny because the dream version of her is all ethereal and mystical and the real version is just like "niqqa you bout to die, here's a knife lol"
>JessicaYeah I feel like this is one of those things where in order for a woman to be "sympathetic" to the audience (in the producers' mind) she has to have the temperament of a child. It's a lot funnier because no other female character is like this. It might also just be for the really stupid audience who can't put two and two together
>gom jabbar scene>Jessica establishes that she knows exactly who this is and why she's here>it's explained to the audience exactly what's going on and the danger Paul is in>Paul is suitably unnerved by the whole thing>keep cutting to jessica outside, practically having a mental breakdown so you know you're supposed to be scared>afterward Jessica talks about how it was unnecessary, establishing she understood what was happeningBut oh no the audience might not understand the scene or her emotional state if you don't make it as obvious as possible. You can't just have her standing there acting stoic and reciting the litany (which by itself should make it clear how someone's feeling). No, she must be hyperventilating and on the verge of tears because the audience is dumb and she's a whamen with powerful emotions, so she can't be more stoic than Paul (a literal teenager an inch away from dying while under physical duress). Can we have even a couple minutes of ambiguity about how Jessica feels toward Paul? Can we trust the audience to handle that? No, the audience is too dumb. Forget that in like the next scene we get an on the nose explanation about what her feelings about him are and how that relates to the Bene Geserit's plans. We can't allow any tension in this 2 and a half our film. We need to telegraph exactly what's going on at all times.
>>20916Lol you just gave me an idea to blend all of Jessica's crying scenes into a short vid along with the credits and title screen while labeling it Dune.mp4.
The seething would be hilarious unfortunately I don't have yt might drop it on bilibili to see what the chinks think.
>>20965Despite being the baddies the Harkonnen aren't even brutal.
>Quickly kill all their enemies through swords/knives/bombs>Technically holds true to all deals they make (in the letter but not the spirit lol)>Supposedly oppress the Freman but the Freman are retards who will initiate random death duels for no reason at all and if left unchecked will start a galaxy wide jihad so who cares>Allows the Duke to have his final words and speech out of respectBesides being fat/ugly and dressing in all edgelord black is there a single thing the Harkonnens do that is particularly terrible? No.
Even executing Atreides prisoners makes sense because holy shit have you seen how loyal they are? One guy shouts Atreides and these NPCs will repeat it for a full minute; you don't leave zealots like that running around in your base even if they are prisoners.
I feel like Dune is a very confused series, or maybe it’s just how people interpret it that seems confused to me. A lot of people claim Paul is bad because of his jihad, but he continuously suggested the jihad was out of his control. He chose it over joining the Harkonnens, but ultimately the Golden Path was going to require immense misery and bloodshed. It seems like choosing to help the colonized Fremen conquer the empire and achieve their dream of terraforming Dune was marginally better than joining the Harkonnens.
But people say the Fremen lost their culture in the process! I don’t see how their culture was going to be maintained when it was based on the destitution of the desert planet, and terraforming Dune was upending the whole material basis of that culture. And then when you get into the actual fulfillment of the Golden Path by Leto II you’re talking about universal tyranny, but Leto II didn’t even want to do what he did. He wanted to die, he hated it and was immensely bored by his own presience. He only did it to stop the apocalypse, and the vision of humanity’s extinction was even independently corroborated by Siona’s presience, so it isn’t like he is definitely making it all up. All indications are that presience is very powerful, it’s the whole basis of space flight without computers.
So I dunno, I just don’t get it. It seems like Dune has themes of fate and the question of how individual will plays into history, but in terms of the many people who seem to want to construe it as condemning Paul and Leto II, I don’t see it. Paul and Leto II saved humanity from extinction at great personal sacrifice. Paul’s messianic status may have been a lie of the space witches spread on Arrakis a long time ago, but in a way the lie became a reality and Paul couldn’t do much about it. He never had much of a choice, neither did the Fremen, nobody did. At most they had the choice of just not participating, but through presience Paul and Leto II saw that doing that was it’s own kind of choice, the choice to allow the Fremen to be oppressed by the Harkonnens or even allow humanity to perish by killer machines. Presience made them experience the predicament of being unable to be truly free from consequence and causality. I know Herbert himself hated leaders and all that shit, but Paul only really subverted notions of the uniquely powerful or heroic leader by being largely powerless at the same time as being a messianic emperor. I don’t think the message was that what he did was “bad”, it’s that he wasn’t as powerful as he appeared. Leto II very explicitly taught Herbert’s philosophy that leaders and centralization were dangerous and humanity would be more resilient against catastrophe if it was more diverse, which was probably majorly based on ecological stuff he was interest in.
>>21239what anime? Anime is a medium - a certain style of the macrocategory of animated film/series - and has numerous genre, including culture specific ones endemic to Japan (Shounen, Shoujo, Seinein etc.)
Depending on this and on an individual basis of an anime and its creator, they can be pro or anti-military, see
>>>/anime/10545 and the Attack on Titan thread and compare to Miyazaki media, communist anime (thread) and other stuff, there's no single tendency.
Shounen is expected to be pro-military, yet many of the most iconic anime of the genre such as Gundam or Naruto have an overall theme that, despite the cool action, war fucking sucks.
I liked it, but I think a series would be much better. I have three criticisms:
1. Not mentioning the Butlerian Jihad obscures to the viewer completely why their tech is the way it is, why you need spice melange for instellar travel, why hunter-seekers need nearby "operators", etc.
2. Many characters are killed off barely after they are established. Piter De Vries isn't even noticed by people unfamiliar with the book and has like 30 seconds screentime, despite him being such a depraved and villianous character. Feyd-Rautha should have been introduced already. Duncan Idaho and Gurney Halleck are barely introduced, there is zero emotional impact on Idaho's death unless you just like Jason Momoa. Kynes must be a fucking joke of a character, literally introduced and then dies like 10 minutes later.
3. The Bene Gesserit are barely explained. The spacing guild was not explained, although we might see that in part two. Generally, it feels like all the factions more act like an aesthetic backdrop without really explaining their roles and ambitions. Also, giving House Atreides fucking Nazi aesthetic was a horrible design choice.
>>21239On the contrary, the plot of SAC second season and Arise is that military bad!
>>21558I would not have minded Jodorowsky adaptation in the visual department. Big departure from books kinda works at times, as I like Veerhoven's take on Starship Trooper. But, IMO, the thing is in Dune people fuck. People are still human at the end engaging in all human desires despite a veneer of haughtiness.
The whole immaculate birth of Paul because Jessica converting blood of Leto into sperm and getting impregnated as Leto was castrated prior to Paul dying physically (getting killed by Feyd when it was the opposite) and spiritually becoming cosmic entity with everyone, I think it takes away that human element. The crux of the saga is humanity despite its tribulations endures with its all vices. That was point of Bene Gesserit's Gom Jabbar test. Which is why the Golden Path was such a brutal step. Despite having a larger than life figures, its characters are still human at the end.
Jodorowsky discards that for his larger than life vision, contorting the story into R.A Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange land. He was aiming for a visual journey that would alleviate the viewer into some religious frenzy. And he is aware of it, which is why in the documentary he uses rape analogy, which also ends up alluding to his own origin as a child out of marital rape.
Would I have mind that if it ever materialized? No.
Pretend that it would be adaptation of the book not something inspiring into something entirely different like Starship Trooper? No.
Just watched it. I enjoyed it. Overall, it felt like a straightforward adaption but perhaps missing some of the more trippy and political aspects of Dune? Most evident in the costume design, where everything has a hard, military, efficient look in it. The anti-imperialist stuff is there, but not explored that much. Ecology is also there, but not really explored. I really liked the presentation of the Imperial officials, when they got off the ship on Arakis. That was fun and campy. The Sardaukar doing human sacrifice on a massive scale in a city designed for it was also very cool.
I like the presentation of Paul's ability to read the future, the flux and uncertainty of it. I don't think it was like that in the novels? All the characters were written how I remembered them from the books, and I was about to soyface when Keynes pulled out her hooks. Totally forgot about people riding worms. I liked Jessica, felt the actress did a good job capturing the conflicts of being a mom/doing a science experiment.
Overall, felt like it stayed very close to the source material. Looking forward to the next one.
>>21280>Kynes must be a fucking joke of a character, literally introduced and then dies like 10 minutes later.Yeah that one's weird. They genderswapped Kynes and then cut the meal scene(dinner) with the smuggler and arrakeen big honchos that would give a lot of context and worldbuilding with a small budget compared to fucking around with CGI.
Another thing that bothers me is that they seemed to have cut all of the eugenics out. That's what Dune is about. It's "What if humanity went full retard and took the (shittiest) path of solving every problem with eugenics, the story." So now the Bene Gesserit are just feminist witches holding out against unenlightened feudal patriarchy, the male "Kwisatz Haderach" cannot be explained because political correctness. And I suspect the rush through the betrayal arc is because political correctness would not allow the depiction of the protagonist as part of the feudal, deeply classist society with cynical aristocrats openly admitting it's all smoke and mirrors to keep the rabble busy, miserable and subservient. Oh and the Fremen need to be kept in the noble savage(but oddly progressive, instead of pragmatic) unexplored territory.
It's like they wanted to make a modern adaptation but in the process ended up gouging most of the meaty bits for political correctness until what remains is a generic story with winks to book readers that satisfy no one.
Book readers are reminded of all the movie does wrong by omission and non book readers don't get the reference at all because it's given no context within the movie.
>>21909> So now the Bene Gesserit are just feminist witches holding out against unenlightened feudal patriarchy,Wait
How the fuck did you get the notion that the Bene Gesserit were good in the film? They come off as devious as fuck, help to orchestrate the death of Paul’s house, Paul’s mother is shown as right to have gone against their wishes, and Paul himself despises them for setting him up to be their puppet.
> the male "Kwisatz Haderach" cannot be explained because political correctnessOr….crazy thought…they’re saving the explanation for the second film? Like ffs in this movie they only even vaguely hinted at what is supposed to make Paul special, all they have given thus far is that he has some Bene Gesserit abilities and can also see the future vaguely
From what is shown it’s pretty clear they’re going to explain his abilities in the next film since the ending shows Paul having visions of multiple possible futures
> And I suspect the rush through the betrayal arc is because political correctness would not allow the depiction of the protagonist as part of the feudal, deeply classist society with cynical aristocrats openly admitting it's all smoke and mirrors to keep the rabble busy, miserable and subservient.Again, it’s pretty damn clear the Atreides are not truly liberators to the Fremen, Leto’s men clearly see the Fremen as savage subjects and nearly murder the first few Fremen they encounter who they had specifically contacted to come for diplomatic negotiations, and Leto himself is only contacting the Fremen to have an edge against the Harkonnens and the Emperor who he knows are trying to kill him
Also why the fuck do you want to watch a movie that’s 90% exposition exactly? You realize a film adaptation is not a BOOK? Film is a visual medium, most people do not want to see a film consisting of people constantly explaining shit to other characters who should already understand the situation in-universe
Like did you want a scene where Paul is directly told what spice is used for even though he should already know? Paul isn’t exactly on a hero’s journey here.
> Oh and the Fremen need to be kept in the noble savage(but oddly progressive, instead of pragmatic) unexplored territory. Again, how exactly did you get this interpretation? The second the Fremen encounter Paul and his mother traversing the desert, they sic sandworms on them and then plan to murder them for their water, afterwards Paul is forced into a duel to the death against a guy he just met, and again, there is going to be a second film that depicts the Fremen jihad
> It's like they wanted to make a modern adaptation but in the process ended up gouging most of the meaty bits for political correctness until what remains is a generic story with winks to book readers that satisfy no one.It’s almost like they’re making a sequel and most people actually enjoy twists, revelations, and no bland exposition in a movie
>>21914>Film is a visual medium, most people do not want to see a film consisting of people constantly explaining shit to other characters who should already understand the situation in-universeExcuse me, without the knowledge of the Butlerian Jihad, which is mentioned in the book in the first fucking chapter, you won't even get why their tech is so weird and why they use swords.
Take the scene with the hunter-seeker drone for example.
>the operator must be nearby!Why? The audience is left clueless as to why we need mindslaves to operate things.
>>21920Dude, there are core aspects of the entire story that you can't just guess or whatever. Should LotR have started in the Mines or Moria?
In the movie, Paul literally watches documentaries on Arrakis and they fit in nicely into the fabric of the movie, so come the fuck on.
I am usually a big fan of "show, don't tell" and Dune is already weird enough, but you do realize there is barely any substance left for non-book watchers to apreciate besides the visuals? Excuse me for expecting something a bit more high-brow than Star Wars which is just just self-explanatory fantasy transplanted into space.
>>21925Also, they are covering like… 1/3rd or less of the first book of a saga. A first book which is itself an (in-medias-res?) introduction. There is so little meat in the movie. They have actors, they can have the actors speaking. AS I said before the book provides two scenes of motly dialogue to establish context without needing to verbalize the internal monologues. The meal scene with Kynes and the Arakeen VIPs and the verbal interactions with Stilgar's Fremen before the fight with Paul.
But they din't want to go there because the Fremen wont fit very well to politically correct sensibilities if reproduced faithfully and will get scorned by book readers if they don't. Apparently their budget is better spent on desert and explosion's CGI and fighting choreography. So much so that they skipped the whole "finding the traitor" arc and with it the entire in explainer for Hawat, Idaho, Jessica&Leto and their situation on Arrakis to rush to the fighting scenes.
I'm not asking for some stringent pedantic adherence to the books. I read the books after watching the movie and it's such a shame how little they did to condense the already sparse explanations given in the book. It seems to me that they went the other way, that they though it they remove just a little bit more context, they could pass it for a generic story that needs no worldbuilding.
>>21203>Golden PathSo I'm reading through God Emperor right now and the problem I'm having with the series is that the more things are explained the less sense they make. And the whole "Golden Path"
that Paul didn't have the balls to take is like peak nonsense justified by prescience.
>Oh sorry the prescient character says so! x99For everything.
Also the eugenics is starting to get on my tits. I get the eugenics as a plotpoint to illustrate the ass backwards, stagnation of an empire stuck in spice based technofeudalism. But even then technology is lampshaded as an easy way out the moment anyone develops a way around shield technology or brings back computers for FTL navigation.
It seems every plotpoint revolves around some part of "human nature" that needs to be bred in or out of the human species. So the threat to humanity justifying the Golden Path feels even more contrived.
Like if there is genetic/psychic memory, what is the justification of the Bene Gesserit or the Tleilaxu or the guild navigators not to explore that memory to gain a massive edge with the scientific knowledge from before the Butlerian Jihad? But nope it's all about breeding the right prophets, warriors and administrators. Then ultimately traumatizing the entirety of interstellar humanity so that it's collective genetic memory will direct them unconsciously away from the timelines that result in extinction. At no point is this access to literally the entirety of human knowledge and experience, even mused to be of any use other than securing technofeudal power so that one can do interstellar level eugenics.Why? Because some prescient dick that claims to be acting with the perspective and wisdom of every previously lived human despite never acting himself outside of character for the present times says so. and because of it every character and faction must be retards. >>23877If there is going to be a directors cut with more story and less CGI i would be down
But after 2 hours of hans zimmer earrape my adhd brain was just 100% mush and i wanted to go home
>>20596No i agree
I never read the manga and dont plan to
Only thing so far in regards to the tech is:
>super shield tech that blocks high velocity shit but not slot stuff, so you can still walk and work, meaning the only weapons usefull are melee and shitWhy the fuck do they need spice
You dont even know the characters who die
The main character hardly has any dialogue.
Movie is shit. Looks pretty though. Nice Hans Zimmer music video
>>25815>TiTsWhat's that?
I ask because there's no way that acronym is going to bring up what you're talking about.
>>25001>Maybe I read it wrong or am not deep enough into the lore, but I thought the Butlerian Jihad was just a ban on all "thinking machines", meaning a ban on AI or anything that could be construed as AI or simply any machine whose function could be construed as doing your thinking for you, but not all computers in general.Technically speaking a calculator doing simple arithmetic is still doing thinking for you.
Maybe they banned computers emulating neural networks.
>>26195>Technically speaking a calculator doing simple arithmetic is still doing thinking for you.Yes, correct. They don't have calculators in the Dune universe. That's at least partially the role of the mentats.
I know that lots of computers are basically calculators, but (at least in Frank Herbert's original novels) the Butlerian Jihad was more of a philosophical restriction on computers based around the idea that humanity was becoming too intellectually dependent on them, and this dependence was preventing humanity from reaching its full potential. A potential realized in the likes of the mentats, navigators, and Bene Gesserit.
However, a lot of their technology is clearly computerized and it would have to be. I've always interpreted this to mean that they have some basic "dumb" computerization that neither has artificial intelligence of any kind nor performs any function that could be viewed as "thinking for humans".
So, for instance, the hunter-seeker is clearly a device that would require extensive computerization to function, but still requires a human pilot.
Also, there's a lot of spiritual and religious themes in the books, and one of the impressions I got was that the people of the Dune universe regard thought and consciousness as something sacred, and consequently not something to be given over to machines.
>>20966>>20969>>20970>>20972BASED AND ORC PILLED
CRITICAL SUPPORT FOR HOUSE HARKONNEN AGAINST NATO IMPERIALIST HOUSE ATREIDES AND THEIR COLOR REVOLUTION FREMEN ALLIES
>>34893"walk without rhythm and it won't attract the worm"
@ 2:04
>>34901Oooooh now it's coming together, I honestly never put that together and thought it was about a bird catching a worm or some shit.
>>34902 Neato.
>>20820I know this comment is almost two years old now, but Jesus Christ, that compression. Also
>BWAAAAAAAGood old Hans. I actually liked the music in the film, though.
>>9999>9999 Holy shit those gets.
>>35862 I liked them, but I also know to separate my ideological principles from enjoying a story.
>>9942>Liet Keynes>a womanI might be stupid, but this is pretty logical. What characters are not what they appear and have much deeper plans than it seems? Bene Gesserit.
Who are Bene Gesserit? Women.
Spoilers ahead.
Honestly it's a bit of a slog. There were times where is honestly just got really bored. The dialog is really campy, and the story so predictable that it can't carry the movie at all, and the movie just ignores all the world-building and exposition to drag the viewer into this universe. It's just sand and worms, and Arrakis is fucking inhospitable that you don't even get mountains, oases or any sort of settlements, just the capital which looks like a dead city as well. It's like someone tasked Todd Howard with creating an unfinished sandbox (no pun intended) for the next Elder Scroll. Cinematography was good, some scenes looked nice, costumes are so-so (not something you wouldn't see in a medium budget show on the SyFy channel) - the only cool segment was an arena fight that was shot in almost black and white.
All the characters were cardboard villains and heroes. The only romance of this film was Twilight-esque characters giving sultry looks to each other, in general the movie is terminally unsexy despite trying to be "gritty", it's like sex in the beach but all you get is sand in your peehole and vagina. The few good actors in this movie, like Skarsgart and the guy who played Thanos (forget his name) were underused, Ferguson was okay, but decided to play her character like a villian but she doesn't care about the book anyway (by her own words!). Hans Zimmer's score was okay but not a single new piece we already heard in the first movie, and at times very Hollywood-esque.
A movie that plays it safe, by the book. There is chosen one, his side chick, retarded cliche villains (who do stuff like creating a huge cloud of dust and charge into it without organization knowing the enemy is there).
>>35804>I fear some retard right wingers will be like "based religious leader takes over" after Dune Part Two.you really overestimate their analytical abilities
theyre just mad that chani is played by someone with melanin
My theory is that a lot of the changes made in Dune 2 from the book are because it's The Prophet's propaganda.
If you don't know, after Chani is killed, Paul blinds himself and wanders off into the wilderness, becoming "The Preacher," a wondering blind prophet who preaches against his own religion and is ultimately and ironically killed by one of his own priests for blasphemy.
>My mom made me do it! It was her idea!
>I didn't even have those strong prescient visions until my mom made me drink the water of life. I couldn't have even played myself off as a prophet!
>I was also totally honest with Chani the whole time and she never believed all the religious mummery. I certainly didn't convince Chani I was a prophet almost right away and have her wrapped around my finger after we did psychedelic drugs together and I gave her the old "Muad-D"
>I also did not get Chani teen pregnant and did not get our child killed by taking him on campaign with us
>Also, it was me who killed the Baron! Stabbed that MF right in the neck! It wasn't Alia with a Gom Jabbar, we wouldn't let a child into an active war zone with a poisoned needle hahaha…
>Also, everyone knew Feyd Rautha was a psychopath and though I was cool for killing him. He was one tough bastard too, but I beat him fair and square in an honest duel! He was actually beating me before he insulted Chani and I went beast mode on him! The claims that I was using prescient vision to know his moves before he made them, or that he was too used to dirty tricks in duels and poisoned himself with his own hidden needle are total nonsense
>Also, I had the Emperor taken prisoner and totally at my mercy! My plan didn't hinge *entirely* on threatening to destroy the spice!
>>40184Btw, I liked the stronger highlighting of the Fremen into different religious factions with their frictions and the strengthened role of Chani in which maybe some people disliked because it diverts a bit from the book.
It stressed the agency of the Fremen and actually reinforced Dune's anti-colonial message as well as its critique on religion. I think that this was a great and modern choice on the part of Villeneuve. I just wished the aesthetics had been a bit more along the lines of speculative fiction, in the sense of 'what would Islamic aesthetics look like in 2000 years' like they did with some of thr costumes instead of 'ok it's a dessert planet so let's go with brutalism.
>>40194Will do probably.
>>40265>the strengthened role of Chani in which maybe some people disliked because it diverts a bit from the book. probably more just disliking zendaya
>I just wished the aesthetics had been a bit more along the lines of speculative fictionProbably my biggest gripe with these movies (maybe second to how much is lost by omitting all the internal monologue stuff). When we look back at these movies they are going to feel very of their time with the aesthetics. IDK where it started but I feel like Inception really set the stage for the current era of hollywood making everything drab and mundane even when you're seeing something fantastical. Also the BWAH music and trailers.
>>40267It does well at accentuating the contrast between modern/sci-fi and medieval/supernatural elements. I agree that the architecture or what's more annoying to me the design of the military aspects of the film (simple modern officer's uniforms, generic spacesuits and non-ideological militarism) or just the entire Harkonnen homeworld are bland, but I think that also fits the source material. Like we are supposed believe that an ultra-advanced space-faring civilization will base its political structure on feudal customs. For a human being living in our world in the year 202x it's hard to make sense of how the societies depicted actually work, especially outside the Fremens. Dune only works when not everything is taken literally, as it's not a real sci-fi and it isn't based on real science, it's a mix of historical and contemporary political allegories (religion, feudalism, nomadic/martial cultures, Western colonialism, the Roman Empire, the Russian Empire, etc.) that somehow fit together.
>>9920>>9948Let's be fair dear comrades from 2020, despite psycho-history resembling historical materialism, the actual story of the book up until the introduction of the Second Foundation is an allegory for the decline and rise of a mythic, united West first as the Roman Empire collapsing into the clergy-dominated Middle Ages and its subsequent reclaiming of its technological prowess and expansion fueled by trade and secularized politics. This history omits almost everything that an anti-imperialist Marxist likes to critique: the Roman Empire's reliance territorial conqest for acquiring slaves, the reliance of early colonialists on trade and technology from the at the time still equally prosperous non-Western civilizations, the reliance of later European industries on wealth extracted from the colonies, the actual existence of any non-Western civilizations, the disunity of the West at least until WW2, and of course severe class conflict within the West.
The historical materialism that can be derived from psycho-history is at best an ultra-deterministic caricature version of Marxism where gigabrained Marx predicts the exact movements of every single grain of sand in the Sahara for the next 1000 years using science so advanced its indistinguishable from magic. This so-called historical materialism is only fit for leftcoms who spend every waking hour in their armchairs. The Second Foundation is even weirder
it's about mind-controlling everyone in the galaxy while hiding in the shadows and it's also totally incompatible with Marxism
except if you are Lyndon LaRouche himself, who, as your average late 20th century cult leader, probably based his praxis on these novels >>40364Danke, I was going to download a version later but forgot.
>>40363Sure. The scene works because of the context of the characters, situation and depiction. As Lucas says it Rhymes, like poetry.
For the over-all character:
In the context of the story, Anakin is a young man, hormonal and who has reunited with an object of his obsession which has reawakened his ego and sexuality from its repressed dormancy. It had been repressed because of the incumbent Jedi Establishment's attitude towards emotional attachment. So when he's assigned as Padme's guard, he cannot help but have his feelings and teenage hormones magnified by constant presence around her.
So in summary, a boy, who has never faced his own hormones and emotions and essentially told to repress them, is suddenly confronted with the source of powerful feelings and memories which he doesn't know how to deal with on top of already being an awkward teenager stuck between boy and man.
We see this visibly in how his maturity and good relations with Obi-Wan sour and he begins to counter-mand and argue with him as soon as he meets Padme again.
It's harder for me to describe Padme's side, but it's a reflection of classical cursed love where an overly kind woman falls in love with someone deeply broken.
The sand scene in particular has the context of him and Padme hanging out and Padme - who was always rich and well-cared for (which is why she can afford to be so kind, empathetic and forgiving a person) - and she brings up her happy memories playing as a child on the warm, sandy beaches of Naboo, something she could enjoy because she lived on a watery planet in luxury, and not thinking about how it would appear to Anakin, who she knows was born into slavery. And so in marked contrast of their positions and upbringings Anakin, awkwardly and directly states his hatred for sand and all he associates it with, while indirectly reminding Padme of who he is, where he's from, and what he'd suffered. This slightly wooden dialogue works because it fits the characters and situation, and directly carry's across exactly what George Lucas wants to be seen.
Finally the scene homage's many of the corny, old TV-Shows and films like Flash Gordon.
>>40365NOTHING of this is remarkable. It is bog standard. What little symbolism there is, is obvious and superficial. It gives no further insight and exhibits no artistry.
It also doesn't go into the actual, filmographic execution of the scene, which is what the other Anon asked for. The lighting, the composition, the mise en scène. Which are all, typical of Lucas return to directing, typical and boring.
Just because something has reason behind it, is intended, does not make it good - let alone great. It is BEYOND SAD this has to be said.
>>40366>bog standard Not an argument, at this point in human history, every trope and cliche and so on has been done before.
>NOTHING of this is remarkable Not an argument, that's a statement and of a personal opinion at that.
>obvious and superficial Nope, it's obvious because it's meant to be, it certainly is not superficial, because Lucas isn't trying to hide the symbolism. He has gone on record stating that what he cares about is the story and Pure Cinema, he doesn't bother beating around the bush with what he wants to demonstrate.
>exhibits no artistry.You're just using psuedo-intellectual buzzwords to sound smarter, doesn't make what you're saying any more true.
>It also doesn't go into the actual, filmographic execution of the scene… The lighting, the composition, the mise en scène Tell you're a pretentious pseud without telling me you're a pretentious pseud. The scene is exactly what is needed for the story moment. You're just using terms you've heard by people use when talking about film, without understanding them. None of what you're saying is true because that's what YOU want to see, but it's not what Lucas wanted to show. He is intentionally avoiding a subjective position and films them as if the viewer was there with them, listening into a personal, real scene.
If you genuinely think that Lucas, who studied film professionally and whose cinematography reflected his study, wasn't aware of the lighting and composition he was personally directing, then you're an entitled ignoramus.
>typical and boringNo anon. What you're stating is the same entitled burger-fan approach to media that feeds Hollywood's anti-artistic movie production system, you come to the film expecting to see what you want to see, and when you don't get that you call it bad. When analyzing art, especially in film, a main part of it is to see how well the artist achieved their goal in expressing their idea. The focus of the scene about sand isn't about the background or lighting, the environment is a tertiary factor here. The story and characters in it are the important part, and the scene does exactly what it needs to do - portray a moment of how different Anakin and Padme are and demonstrate Anakin's inner wounds, while also setting up what occurs on Tatooine. On Tatooine is where the environment plays a greater role and focus and we see this in how Anakin reacts to returning and the over-all visuals.
Just because it isn't what you like does not make it bad, just something that you do not personally enjoy and its BEYOND SAD that the difference between the meaning and execution of an art piece and one's own tastes needs to be explained.
>Just because something has reason behind it, is intended, does not make it good Yes it is, if it carries across the intent it has succeeded. It's BEYOND SAD that you think you've stated something like this and assume it somehow makes your opinion fact.
>>40367>the star wars the clone wars writers end up making this a running gag of sorts with Anakin complaining about sand and shaking it off him sometimes It works in a more humoristic referential way because of that scene, but also works on 2 other levels. First, normal people would complain about sand like that, people do so all the time. Secondly it fits George Lucas's style of references. His films are full of references to other works of music, cinematography and dialogue and his own films. For example the scene where Obi-wan goes to a diner is visually referential to American Graffiti's similar scenes (pic rel).
>s it me or is anakin/vader basically just bonapartism in spaaaaceeeee. Not really. People use Bonapartism without understanding the meaning of the term in either modern usage or in historical usage. The main idea was essentially creating/restoring a monarchy based around a charismatic militaristic leader-figure that had the people's support through populism. And while I'm dismissive of liberal whining about Russian Imperialism, Putin does fit the modern concept of Bonapartism.
Anakin does not. His story, role and actions are far more directly dictatorial, and not a widely known, populist supported figure. Palpatine MIGHT fit that role prior to the rise of the Empire, but even that is a bit of a stretch. Frankly Anakin although not directly is in some ways analogous to Jesus Christ (his mother's fatherless conception for example) but in a twist of reality and fate, the once peaceful religion of the Jedi had become a stagnant, arrogant group, blinded to the Dark Side by their traditionalism and inflexibility, and so essentially fulfilling the prophecy of balancing the force, by pushing the messiah into the arms of the devil and being destroyed as a result, balancing the Dark and Light side in that twisted way. But with the Empire's fascistic rise things are unbalanced again, and through Luke redeeming Vader and, as part of the rebellion, defeating the Empire, the story is brought to a close. The politics are far more centered around Palpatine and his game of Cat and Mouse between Republic and CIS, between himself and the Jedi, and is a depiction of Decaying Capitalism descending into fascism, reflecting the United States, Nazi Germany and Ancient Rome.
Further discussion should be taken to the current Star Wars thread
>>15143 sage for offtopic
>>40400Anon, like I said for
>>40371 The dialogue is fine, it's just not what YOU wanted. From the point of view of the story it's great - it fits the character of Anakin as an awkward teenager with poor socialization, it's direct yet has depth and so on. You think its awful because it's not what your vision of those things is, but George's. You say how George made these movies awful…. without Lucas the story, the characters, the concepts, talents and budget would not exist.
>>40404>From the point of view of the story it's greatdo you mean it fits the story? you would be onto something if the dialogue were authentically "awkward", as though it evoked an actual "awkward teenager with poor socialization", but it does not. the dialogue is awkward in the sense that it evokes adult actors on a sound stage reading dialogue written by a man who hasn't been a teenager for forty years.
that said, people probably wouldn't rag on the writing so much if the direction were worth a fuck. the actors in these movies look lost, especially the first two. by the third at least mcdiarmid and mcgregor are having fun with it.
>>40405Should have done this earlier with
>>40404 but whatever, all further Star Wars discussion is moved to the Star Wars thread, my response to (you) is
>>40412 >>40812That's the implication, isn't it? If the reason that people want to be bullshitted into a grand narrative is because of generational trauma from centuries of religious repression against pagans, heretics and doubters, it stands to reason that said pagans, heretics and doubters must have been rational free thinkers generally freed from such nonsense.
Except that they weren't. For every Galileo, you had at least a hundred people like Montanists, Cathars and Hermeticists. Take a long watch of vid related if you want to see how supposedly rational the Hermeticists are.
>>40814>That's the implication, isn't it?No.
>it stands to reason that said pagans, heretics and doubters must have been rational free thinkers generally freed from such nonsense.What it implies is that they weren't willing to believe any new thing they were being demanded to believe by an authority. You might instead believe in some spiritualist tradition tied to your locality (paganism). The particular characteristic you see in religious people today is a willingness to adopt a
new (to them) ideology being pushed by people with power. Usually what you expect from people is to resist new belief systems like this (look at the history of colonialism trying to erase indigenous religions). There seems to be something specific in western cultures that opens people to embracing whatever new woo is being foisted onto them.
>>40834>What it implies is that they weren't willing to believe any new thing they were being demanded to believe by an authority.Except the pagans were generally very willing to accept Jesus and the Christian God. What was difficult was getting them to drop the belief in their old gods and especially to get them to drop their old religious practices and festivals (which is partially why you see many Christian holidays which are essentially Christianized mock ups of pagan festivals).
The pagans weren't skeptics. It was quite the opposite. They were reluctant to give up their old beliefs, but were quite happy to accept new ones.
>>41313>13 13 Checked
> that's not exactly an original idea, I'm sure there are stories from as far back as like the victorian era with that plot Probably earlier, I think there's at least a few Greek, Scandinavian and Chinese myths that have a similar idea. My point was more relative to modern media and just that it's resemblant.
>>41341By the standards of the other people in the story they are savages, the same way even the most advanced human civilizations today would be seen as savages by Aliens visiting our planet.
>>41340 I'm ambivalent to both. I liked the old Dune film better and Avatar was never a favorite of mine, though I liked it more than the sequel.
>>41275Frank Herbert Interview on Dune shortly after David Lynch's Dune came out in 1984. He passed away in 1986 which makes this one of his last filmed interviews. He discusses messiahs, cults, Leaders, technology, genes & religious commentary. From Great Ktca Read-A-Thon that aired 09/28/87. Filmed circa 1984, shortly before Herbert's death in 1986. Aired on PBS in 1987. Herbert opens by saying:
"Well, my Arab friends wonder why it's called science fiction. DUNE, they say, is religious commentary… My own view of it is, 'Okay, we call it science fiction.'… I don't care what they call it." For more context on what Herbert may have meant by this, see: Haris A. Durrani, TOR, "The Muslimness of Dune: A Close Reading of 'Appendix II: The Religion of Dune'"
https://reactormag.com/the-muslimness-of-dune-a-close-reading-of-appendix-ii-the-religion-of-dune/ Herbert does not appear to have made this statement as a way to simply say, "I have Arab friends" (as an apologetic or a claim to authority by proximity). It's a substantive comment, made in a somewhat amused offhand remark, about the core themes of the novels. Professor of Islamic history Ali Karjoo-Ravary, upon examining archives of Herbert's personal papers, told CBC the following:
>Q: These books were written in 1965. Frank Herbert's a pretty white American. Do we have a sense of why he chose to include these specific references in his books?Karjoo-Ravary: One of the things that I realized in my research was that, even in the 1960s, English had been so intertwined with the Muslim world because of British colonialism, because the world was already pretty globalized. Herbert constantly said that he had Arab friends. He said he had Semitic friends, which I'm not sure what he meant by that, who helped him. Part of it was also me thinking, why are we so surprised? The world was actually already pretty globalized and pretty interconnected. So him just knowing English and French and having these friends was able to really dove deeply into the history of Islam and the Islamic world.
>Q: You mentioned that it sort of slips by some readers, but his editors certainly picked up on it. I'm assuming they weren't exactly keen on it.Karjoo-Ravary: They weren't. One of them said, "You need to give us an explanation as to why there's so much Muslim flavour," in the editor's words. I think another editor also said, "What's up with all the Islam?" But also … his book, at first, it didn't do that well. And part of it was this insistence on the use of language, of using a lot of foreign words, not just Arabic. He's taking from a lot of different languages … and he was very adamant on using language to signify that you're not [in the present]. And he also really believed in slow build up and experimenting with different types of narrative and different types of sentence structure to give a slower pace than was usual in science fiction at that time.
https://www.cbc.ca/radio/day6/introducing-the-metaverse-crisis-in-afghanistan-stuff-the-british-stole-islamic-influence-in-dune-and-more-1.6220405/frank-herbert-s-dune-novels-were-heavily-influenced-by-middle-eastern-islamic-cultures-says-scholar-1.6221670 >>41543There literally is action scene every ten minutes.
>>41588It's almost like it's the first half of one book.
>>41605Almost like trying to make a single story into multiple movies is a cheap cash grab.
Looking at you hobbit, deathly hollows, and dune.
>>41626The issue is it wasn't really built to be two seperate stories. Like lotr is basically one story, but Tolkien structured it to work as three. Fellowship's ending was kind of weak too tbf. Twin towers is a better example of how you can make a complete narrative out of a part of a larger one.
I think they should've made it a Dune HBO show or something instead. They did such a piss poor job explaining the lore in the dune movie.
>>41639I said a miniseries would be the best bet. A proper adaptation to fit a normal runtime would be the next best bet.
But ate we teally pretending chalamet isn't insufferable. 0 chemistry. I felt everyone was miscast. Paul, the duke, all his top men, his mom. Dunno if it is just because I read the book first but still.
>chalamet Just sucks ass
>duke letoManlet didn't seem regal or cold or distant enough. Seens like a happy go lucky soft boy. He should be like bambi's father.
>lady jessicaDoesn't work as a femme fatale for me. Looks like a fucking nun instead. Too emotional.
So bad. Felt like a regional theatre play or something
>>41641 (You)
Ok recasting.
>paulDunno there are few to none known young actors. Probably would end up with an unknown
>letoMaybe even Brolin as Leto instead. He is kinda short too actually. Someone who can play an alpha hardass properly. Maybe Jon Hamm. Probably anyone but Oscar Isaac. The kind of silent hero of days of old like wayne or how bout not brolin but bronson(even if he is a manlet?) Or how bout liam niesen?
>lady jessicaA woman who has ever played a sexy role in their career. Maybe jolie or theron. I dunno. Someone that looks like a fucking succubus.
>>41642"Orient" just means "east." "Oriental" just means "eastern."
Dune takes place on a desert planet, not somewhere east of Europe.
>>41641I think Chalamet did a good job as "Paul" in the first movie.
I think he just struggled to be "Muad'Dib."
It reminded me of that one Pirates of the Caribbean movie where Keira Knightley suddenly has to be the leader of a crew of pirates and she just doesn't have the presence for it.
>>26165>As anything but white…..
My guy, dune litterally looks like the muslim population of the sahara. Mauritania, berbers, arabs. The muslim world is exactly "anything but white".
Well, "race" and categorizations like "white" or "black" are pseudoscientific concepts without support by genetics. "Race" is based on other people looking different and people falsely attributing difference based on just appearing to be different, not due to them actually being different (which they are not, at least appreciably, all human populations are very closely related). We do not look at evolutionary relationships with phenotypes for a very good reason. So, since race is not based on genetics, it is also not based on inheritence (it is correlated with inheretence however). If someone has the common phenotypes of X notion of "race", then they will for all intents and purposes be X, since X is not based on genetics (what is inherited), and is instead based on the phenotypes of X (not inherited, but is associated with genetics), which the person in question has (especially since phenotype is the cause of bigotry, not genetics).
>>42377>ZensunniExactly. Everyone is implied to be race/religion mixed in the Dune.
>Nilotic al-Ourouba was the probable original home of the Zensunni, the Misr. Nilotic al-Ourrouba is likely referring to the name of a location on Old Earth, encompassing the areas of Egypt, the Nile Valley and maybe some additional areas of North Africa, and/or the Middle East. Complete speculation on the part of the wiki author. That's all it says.
> "our Sunni ancestors fled from Nilotic al-Ourouba"Nothing about Old Earth.
>>42361Fremen are also based on the Tuareg (that's where all the references to the blue color come from) and the Tuareg are a ethno-cultural group that extends all the way from the Northern Sahara to the Sahel and can look 'middle-eastern' to straight up Black.
One skin color = one culture is America-brained.
>Their cultural traits are a mishmash of orientalism throwing together anything east of Greece. Their religion is closer to Buddhism than Islam as well.This is lazy superficial analysis. Actual middle eastern scholars that watched Dune comment on how they are impressed that Herbert integrated key elements of Islamic theology. While Dune obviously features orientalist elements calling every form of media that does featuree middle-eastern elements orientalist shlock is just intellectually lazy.
>>42446Unlike IRL the Fremen are shown to be in contact with each other across the globe and routinely travel across the planet, so the effects of genetic drift on them would not be as strong as they are on Earth in our real history and prehistory. Given that in the story the Fremen are said to have various adaptations specific to Arrakis (like resistance to bleeding), they have some common ancestry and have adapted to the planet. You would expect to see variations, and arguably more than in many other parts of the Imperium (especially the nobles are practicing eugenics).
What you wouldn't expect is pretty much the whole spectrum of what you see on IRL Earth. We have a lot more conditions than one big desert. Given how white-dominated the Imperium is in the movies (a handful of characters like Yueh and Thufir aside) it seems like a deliberate casting choice, to contribute to the geopolitical coding of the characters and reality subtext of the movies - making the Fremen more representative of the global south in general. That's a fine choice to make in isolation, but it does clash with the themes of Dune (which are themselves problematic at times). It's sort of trying to have your cake and eat it too between grounded worldbuilding and symbolic impact. In the source material, that was already done by having the specificity and uniqueness of the Fremen contribute to the representation of an oppressed people, rather than being more of a melting pot.
The movies don't have time to delve into much detail so the overall effect was always going to genericize the Fremen, and it seems like they leaned into that by intentionally casting the Fremen as much more diverse than the rest of the cast. IMO that choice would work better thematically if the movies had also leaned into the mythic elements or had used a framing device like Princess Irulan's quotations to make the story feel more symbolic than literal. But that potentially would have worked against the cautionary tale by romanticizing it. There's a lot on the table thematically, and it's challenging to balance those pieces against each other. The choices they make in that regard reflect the popular zeitgeist within Hollywood, which in terms of anti-racism tends to be pretty simplistic and surface level. Hollywood is not really the best place to go for anti-imperialist propaganda even if now and then you have somewhat exceptional examples popping up.
>>42448Given that the Fremen are semi nomadic peoples they have similar interactions to the Taureg and Berbers irl over similar distances. Thats plenty of isolation to develop distinct phenotypes over distant, especially given the high selective pressure in such an environment.
15 thousand years is plenty time to develop "special adaptations" such as quicker blood clothing to prevent moisture loss given that such variation is already present in todays population and it just a question of selection and duplication of genes, which happens fairly quickly in an environmentally highly selective environment.
Also who care. Why aren't you talking about the erasure of the identity of the harkonnens.
>>42449>Also who care. Why aren't you talking about the erasure of the identity of the harkonnens.I can. It makes the lineage stuff bizarre. If Jessica is half Harkonnen what happened to all the freaky Harkonnen traits? In the book they are redheads and she is a redhead. She's more closely related to the Baron than Feyd is lol. I guess because the rest of the characters didn't really get much attention on planetary adaptation, they went to the extreme with the Harkonnens (also because they're bad guys and making them more inhuman works for that purpose).
>Thats plenty of isolation to develop distinct phenotypes over distantYeah that's what I said. It's just a matter of degree. Arrakis doesn't have that much variation in environment compared to Earth. You would expect a lot more diversity on Caladan since the wetter climate allows more diverse environments. House Atreides is relatively diverse compared to the rest of the Imperium, but not compared to the Fremen. Giedi Prime being homogeneous pod people makes the most sense given they live in a mostly artificial environment. Being super fair skinned and fair haired fits with that in the original version too, but keeps them less alien.
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