/labor/ - Labor

The problem is that most leftists wanna accommodate and expand unskilled job sector. They don't wanna help people grow out of that.

They are allergic to trades. Most leftists promote mainly college education.

>>676
I don't know if I could trust that farmer but his ideas seem intriguing

>>676
>“if it isn’t blue collar it isnt a real job” socialist nut heads
So you were a retard and far from a socialist.
>I dont think a socialist movement is possible if servitude and service work is allowed to continue.
Which socialist movement? They're already dying in the west regardless of anything. How are you getting the power necessary to abolish service work in order for the socialist movement to stop dying or whatever.

>Outside of being undignified,
Irrelevant.
>these jobs just flat out and do not have to exist in a socialist society.
And you deducted this by the power of imagination? Hahahahahaha get real. A socialist society isn't a utopia you just impose on people, removing icky jobs and shit.

Read theory. Ask questions.

>>678
He’s a quasi-natural farmer advocating the resurgence of pre and early civilizations natural farming techniques. The more important ideas aren’t his findings of natural farming itself, but his criticism on how marketplace demands on what food is grown and when it is grown has reshaped and led to shitloads of problems regarding how farmers—more importantly agricultural companies—approach farming as modern farming is generally a lot less sustainable than it used to be. I wouldn’t trust everything he says as he does exstensibely fetishizes the image of people eating wild foods and farming using old methods quite extensively. Personally, I think he’s a primitivist and a “tree hugger.”

>>677
>they promote unskilled labour
>they want people getting a university education
??? Whatever. Personally, I support education as there are way too many people that are illiterate and largely don’t know much going on in their own societies much less the planet at large. Universities do a lot to socialize people into communities as they do work with other organizations (at least the credible ones) to gather patents and data on emerging fields.

>>679
“A” not “the” as the socialist movement died a while ago after several groups betrayed and neglected it. Anyways, I’m concerned about the movement where you centralize and forcefully support industrialism and technology style of socialism that largely did the most to provide alternative socialist movements a chance to succeed.
>Irrelevant
You think you can convince someone to join your movement if you cannot even promise that they won’t be stroking someone else’s sick (in some cases literally for private care workers)?
>And you deducted this by the power of imagination?

Take a look at the labour force by sector of the countries china, North Korea, the USSR, and compare it to basically any capitalist state imaginable. You are delusional if you think that service work will be needed or even valued in a socialist society.

>>680
>Anyways, I’m concerned about the movement where you centralize and forcefully support industrialism
Which one? In your imagination? Any socialist project is largely determined by it's cultural historical context. Not some imaged promise land. I think you should look into messianic Christianity instead. Rapture will come brother!
>You think you can convince someone to join your movement
Which movement? lmao.
>look at USSR and DPRK
>You are delusional if you think that service work will be needed or even valued in a socialist society.
Both of these countries had/have service work. What in the name of hell are you talking about?

What even is this thread?
OP, I would like to remind you that then Marx called service jobs unproductive labour he did not mean they are useless or even unnecessary
Just put Das Kapital in NotebookLM and ask AI what Marx thought about service work, mmmkay?

>>681
The overwhelming majority of the people that worked and are working there were not anywhere near as involved in service jobs as the average person in places like India, Brazil, France, or the United States.
> Which one? In your imagination? Any socialist project is largely determined by it's cultural historical context
You mean the ones the Leninist, Stalinist, and syndicalism’s movements (the ones in referring too anyways) left behind

>>683
Because it was a society that was quickly industrializing. As I mentioned, you said service jobs were not necessary yet they existed and still do. You claim they weren't necessary by mere feat of your imagination. You deducted this with no technical data, no analysis, no plan on how to abolish it. You just wish it were true and worked back from there. It's just a wishlist you have because you have a grudge against service work for some reason. Your entire analysis rests on your moral repulsion towards service work, and literally nothing more.
>You mean the ones the Leninist, Stalinist, and syndicalism’s movements (the ones in referring too anyways) left behind
I asked which socialist movement I would be "convincing" random people to join based on messianic promises of a utopian future, and the examples you snap back with are all defunct. Like breh wtf are you even on?

>>684
You think the only movements that forced socialism to materialize as something more than what armchair historians were predicting was defunct?

Past that, the amount of people involved in those jobs was and still is declining in those countries just off the basis that people are educated and have the tools necessary to do more than whatever service jobs the fucking Americans of al people are proudfully celebrating in public.

Also my dislike of service work is born out of disliking for servitude and to an extent slavery. Most service sector jobs are manned mainly by trafficked migrants, prisoners, actual slaves, people borne into caste systems on the lower edge, disenfranchised and marginalized minorities, and more of what I can only describe as the most destitute and oppressed peoples imaginable. The fact that this same phenomenon is present in nearly every country without failure is neither accidental nor unrelated to the nature of capitalism and its anti industrialist tendencies. A socialist system doesn’t just reduce or even fully eradicate service work because it encourages rapid industrialization, but because it puts workers in a spot where they cannot ever find themselves trapped into that god awful work environment to begin with.

>>685
>You think the only movements that forced socialism to materialize as something more than what armchair historians were predicting was defunct?
Illegible. What are you saying? How is that a response?
>the amount of people involved in those jobs was and still is declining in those countries just off the basis that people are educated and have the tools necessary to do more than whatever service jobs the fucking Americans of al people are proudfully celebrating in public.
Cite your sources.
>Most service sector jobs are manned mainly by trafficked migrants, prisoners, actual slaves, people borne into caste systems on the lower edge, disenfranchised and marginalized minorities,
Cite your sources
>the nature of capitalism and its anti industrialist tendencies
Capitalism is the single most industrialist force to have ever existed in the history of humanity. "Anti industrialist" my ass lmao.
> A socialist system doesn’t just reduce or even fully eradicate service work because it encourages rapid industrialization, but because it puts workers in a spot where they cannot ever find themselves trapped into that god awful work environment to begin with.
Invented garbage that you just pulled out of your ass.

>>686
:/

>>687
:/

>>680
>You think you can convince someone to join your movement if you cannot even promise that they won’t be stroking someone else’s sick (in some cases literally for private care workers)?
>You are delusional if you think that service work will be needed or even valued in a socialist society.
are you trying to say that we won't need healthcare workers?

>>688
You know what sure, here’s some stats since you wanted them so badly.
First image sourced from Moscow on female labour 1936

I’ll post more

Anyways, the reason why I would suggest that socialism would stop service workers from being forced into their position ties into the implications of proletarian empowerment. The fact that the jobs those people were working in under a decentralized system are explicitly demeaning, unhelpful, and largely unproductive is what makes their eradication under a socialist system necessary. For the betterment of a socialist society, we cannot have perfectly capable people stuck working as entertainers, housekeepers, maids, delivery workers, and other shitty roles for private entities.
And no, capitalism is far from pro industrial. The entire existence of the shock doctrine alone is dedicated to suppressing and stopping any and all industrial progress made outside of the USA. Just look at the disaster in Nigeria. A country of hundreds of millions of perfectly fine people now having any and all industrial progress stopped by a cia backed drug baron, Egypt is in a similar situation, all of South America has had its industrialization routinely stopped by capitalist powers even before the Soviet Union ever formed. That’s not accidental that seemingly all mechanization and industrial progress grinder to a halt in most of the planet with the exception of china and South Korea under Park.

>>690
For Vietnam, black and blue reprepresrnt industry and agriculture respectively.

Second image is for North Korea’s industrial population. When taking this in with the fact that around 47% of workers there work in agriculture this leads to a fraction of those under juche being involved in any service work.

Then the third pic is unsurprisingly the United States.

I’ll also just throw in the caste thing I brought up and the fact that most societies that have or had it often left a shit tone of people on the lower end working in those menial service jobs to entertain or babysit the rich

>>690
So in the USSR, the industry that grew the most was trade and food services, way more than any other, second only to transportation services…..
>socialism would stop service workers from being forced into their position ties into the implications of proletarian empowerment
That's not a goal of socialism though?

>>692
Right and not every other heavy industry (or even just construction just by manpower). I’m not taking your argument seriously just off the fact that it isn’t even correct and the fact that I know that you went out of your way trying to cherry-pick a shitty example anyways.

Resturant culture should be destroyed. Imagine paying $30 for a piece of chicken and rice sonyou can larp has a slave owner and have the help bring it to you.

I went to a resturant for the first time in like 3 years yesterday and the whole experience felt gross.

>>694
Resturant culture is very new, post-1970s new. Boomers created modern resturant culture. I think any place with wait staff is just gross. Money is power and resturants arent about the food, they are about flexing power to have someone who is 'lesser' serving you . Not a fan.

what about communal cafeterias or something?

What even counts as “service work”? Chefs are productive workers the same way factory workers are, they take inputs and their output is a finished product that you consume

I think there's a direct line between American restaurant culture, tipping culture, servitude culture. The idea that you should have somebody bring you the food, ask you if the food's good, cater to your every whim, and then you're getting paid $2.50 an hour and relying on tips. That is directly because this country was a slave nation for 400 years. There's a direct line between restaurant culture and slavery. It's a cultural malaise. I don't know, I haven't been to a restaurant in like three years. Fucking went out to eat. It was just so overwhelmingly disgusted with the whole concept around it. While all these people and they're nice fucking outfits and shit. And of course all the wait staff, every fucking member of the wait staff is Hispanic. But all the people eat at the restaurant are white. I'm like, I'm not dumb. I know why this is.

>>696
Based

>>698
You know there’s restaurants in other countries right? It’s not at all exclusive to the US or setter colonial slave societies

>>695
Have you never been to a buffet?

>>701
Never been to one that actively tries sucking off the hosts as much as the ones in North America do. Normally you just book a seat and the staff fuck off and let you feast with your friends. The better ones in other countries like japan and Vietnam just have people come in through drive throughs or use self serving machines to just grab their meals and let the chefs and cleaners involved in something that even resembles productive work have some semblance of actual dignity and privacy.

>>700
>>700
I'm specifically talking about the American model of restauranting where the whole idea is the experience of it. What is the experience? The experience is being served by another person. The experience is having another person below you in the hierarchy during that temporary moment. It's not really about the food. It's not really about anything more than the ambiance of being served. Having someone below you, and why might that be? There are obviously other models for eateries, but American restaurant culture is particularly evil to me.

>>703
Maybe I’m stupid and fat and American but it has always been about the food and drink to me, and that’s also true of most people. Karens are in a very small but vocal minority, hell if you’re going to a soul food or Caribbean restaurant, the ones with worse service actually have better tasting food a lot of the time. I’m not saying what you describe isn’t real but it’s marginal.

>>676

One thing you should note is that things like transportation, construction, healthcare, etc. are considered services in national account statistics.

>>677
Yeah well, most aren't leftists anyway, they're radlibs

If even that as a fucking janny isn't liberal about anything besides his own sausage fingers on the keyboard banning people and downloading child porn.

You're right that the goal should be building people up. Be that in stem, an actually reliable job in manufacturing or some other tangible work they can do anywhere and be useful to themselves and others, they ought to have autonomy both in their heads knowing they're building character, and in their environment actually having a say in things seeing as they're the ones doing the work.

Nothing pisses me off more about Western society than the ass backwards notion more work means less rank. And people will actually look at you confused when you give them attitude and tell them flat out you work twice as hard as them so either shutup and listen, or this project can fail. The end.

I do it at home too. No respect despite how I carry my boomer parents. I walked out on their asses and didn't speak to them for months. Everyone else kept pressuring me to go back. Why? To be unappreciated and literally have two leeches upon my back? What do they do for me? If anything they only hinder. All the meanwhile physical and emotional abuse. Fuck them. They can rot in their own filth and die.

That's the attitude you gotta give everyone. And there's no easy answer. It's fun to talk about revolution this and beating up your bosses dog that.

But the fact is, it got this bad because people want it this bad. They're stuck in their ways, some even believe they benefit from it when they really don't, let alone the ones that actually do.

So no, there's no nice fitting answer other than you have to make a conscious effort every day not to put up with more than you have too. And for many of us. Those shitty wagie jobs are all we can get. I got a cousin who has all these supposed connections, she ain't doing shit. A lot of good those connections did her.

And if you don't? You're fucked every which way. So I don't blame them for working the shit lumpen job, but I'm not gonna tickle their balls and tell them they're the proletariat dictatorship. They're it. But they're owed more. A lot more. Blood even.

>>915
>>676
The problem is, leftism nowadays has chosen the service worker as their poster child
Trades are looked down upon as petit bourg reactionary.

People think that doing service industry jobs are the only stepping stone to success.

>>680
>??? Whatever. Personally, I support education as there are way too many people that are illiterate and largely don’t know much going on in their own societies much less the planet at large.

Since the 1970s/80s, college has become the more common experience for prime age adulthood
More people spend their youth in schooling than ever before.
And despite this, we still have so many people being labeled illiterate.
Interestingly enough, the people we look down on for being illiterate are master craftsmen. They know how to build fences, fix cars, change door locks, even make elegant meals from scrap.
Also they tend to have more direct experience with other parts of their geopolitical region.


>Universities do a lot to socialize people into communities as they do work with other organizations (at least the credible ones) to gather patents and data on emerging fields.


😅😅😅😅😅😅😅
This naive explanation is what's wrong with public education. "Socialisation" ?
With all the peer pressure and dropping out?
And cutthroat competition for grants?

Again. Most people born after the late 1970s/early 80s have been familiarisrd with college as part of their life goals. And what we see from this romanticism of college/university is a sociopsychological branding of extended adolescence.

A lot of people nowadays can solve math equations and do political analysis essays but they cannot book an eg or even talk to the opposite sex. They don't even know how to do laundry or cook.

They cannot even do basic home repair.

>>915
>Nothing pisses me off more about Western society than the ass backwards notion more work means less rank. And people will actually look at you confused when you give them attitude and tell them flat out you work twice as hard as them so either shutup and listen, or this project can fail. The end.


Their is the common assumption that the elites don't do any work at all. That they're all party animals who have their genitals wipe constantly by maids

CEOs have to be in meetings constantly. They don't get to really enjoy the money they make. Most of it has to go to insurance for their jobs and lives.

Most self proclaimed leftists seem to have a bit of entitlement about them. They feel they deserve more toys but they don't wanna put in work to earn it.
They support lumpenproles as some misunderstood heroes who should be funded for their "careers".
Most lumpens would either rather have a decent job or would kill/rape children an homeless for monetary gain if there were no consequences.

Capitalist services produce no value. Capitalist services are imperialist phenomenon. Capitalist services destroy value. Capitalist service workers are not proletarians.

The export of capital sets a mark of parasitism on an entire country which lives by exploiting the peoples of other countries and colonies. The capital invested abroad forms a continually increasing proportion of the
national wealth of the imperialist countries, and incomes from this capital an ever increasing element in the income of the capitalist class. Lenin called the export of capital “parasitism squared”.

Inseparably connected with increased parasitism of imperialism is the fact that huge masses of people are divorced from socially-useful work. The army of unemployed grows and the surplus-population engaged in services to the exploiting classes increases, as also of those in the machinery of State and in the incredibly inflated sphere of circulation, intensifying exploitation of the proletariat.

The decay of capitalism is further shown in the bribing by the imperialist bourgeoisie, out of its profits from the exploitation of the colonies and dependent countries, of a small upper stratum of skilled workers—the so-called labour aristocracy—by means of higher wages and other sops. With the bourgeoisie’s backing, the labour aristocracy seizes the leading positions in a number of trade unions; it forms, along with petty-bourgeois elements, the active core of the right-wing Socialist parties and constitutes a serious danger to the working-class movement. This stratum of unproductive workers who have become bourgeois is the social basis of opportunism.

The opportunists essentially play the part of agents of the bourgeoisie in the labour movement. By splitting the ranks of the working class the opportunists justify imperialist parasitism and idleness, preventing the workers from uniting their forces to overthrow capitalism. This is one of the reasons why the bourgeoisie still continues to hold power in many countries.

>>927
>Oh noooooooo a fucking meeting!!!!
>My cunt mother had the audacity to say to my face I should live on like three hours of sleep and be her personal uyghur every single day. Should've tooken a knife to her throat than and there. Just slit her throat and Livestream it for mother's day

Yes, I would literally kill and rape EVERYBODY if there was no consequences.
Hell, I'd do it anyway. Fuck your consequences. There's a mod right in front of you. Dox and kill him or you have NO LEGAL RECOURSE for me. NONE, you fucking cuck letting that pedo psycho just sit there banning and harassing us. That alone has given me all the legal privilege I need to do whatever I want whenever i want. I have legal authority to give people authority to shoot up schools. My entitlement supercedes the faggot president of the United States of Amerikkka

>>676
>>2289364
I am a waiter and in my country the restoration sector is very big, the biggest, but the workign conditions are one of the worst. The people in my trade are surprisingly lacking in class consciousness, i believe because a lot of them come from a somewhat lumpen background and because the majority of them, especially gen xers and millenials, are struggling in this shitty profession in the hope of one day opening their own little restaurant. The trade unions in this sector are thus one of the shittiest of the country. Some conditions as basic as having a 8 hour working day, continous shift, 40 hour work week, at least 2 consecutive free days… are almost never met. And yet they are so totally unconcsious. Comrades, what should i do? do i invest my time in entering the trade union and doing agitprop in this sector or should i move on and consider service labor a lost cause in itself?

>>1017
Trying to invest socialist zeitgeist in service jobs is ridiculous. Also, people are not really accepting of socialism anymore.

At best, the socialism they accept would be some liberal revisions

>>679
Back in ussr students, employees, neighbors, etc used to clean their schools, workplaces, neighborhoods themselves

It's not a big deal

>>1033
This.
It's unfortunate that people think cleaning public spaces is something for maids/reformed criminals.