>>1849876>Most peopleProjecting your dreams onto the majority, five yard penalty
>>1849882Gram gram's gotta go.
Isolation.
At least that's my issue
>>1849879>the enemy is bourgeoisie, none of our neighbors or grandparents are bourgeoisieSee Marxists will say this to anyone "not in the fold" and then when you spend not even five minutes in Marxist spaces, you encounter anything from Haz huffing that Baristas aren't real proles to Settlers-posting. It's like how evangelicals sometimes say they aren't a "religion" but some kind of "personal relationship with Jesus" but then screech about social issues like gay marriage or abortion; what kind of personal relationship needs to be handled in federal elections?
Honestly I wish there was a bot to compare how many times people on this board actually talk about politicians versus ranting about whole categories worth of people.
>>1849743I'm already destroyed what the fuck
>>1849876>You talk to most Americans and they'll tell you that they see their enemies as living in D.C.Yet they keep voting for them…
>>1849938Yeah, states assign false debts to their members to entrap them, same as any other capital.
>>1849938To a certain extent it's voting against the people they like the least.
>>1849938Not like it would change things if they stopped voting for them
porky has learned how to train prole pretty well
>>1849961>>1849955Well, they'll keep getting the same results. Americans are cattle.
>>1849974I mean yeah kinda but it's not like it's exactly easy to get millions of people together and organised to throw out the politicians.
>>1849824>>1849832>Strangely, everyone believes that American politicians are all also corrupt, crooked liars, but somehow they're still better than, say, Mexican politicians. It's not that they are fundamentally different but that in America, politicians now have a legalized form of corruption in lobbying, revolving door jobs, paid speeches, book deals, etc which has effectively crowded out the more conventional corruption as seen in Mexico from cartels.
>>1850061Sure, but it's just about the perception and the unexamined logic of
>all politicians are corrupt >but American political corruption doesn't produce dysfunction like Mexican corruption does>this is because of race/the founding fathers (pbut)/god
>>1849725Because people are retarded, they'll just blame minorities or some shit instead of the obvious problem
>>1850061I know a guy who lives about half of his time in Mexico (but he's a gringo and might be insulated from a lot of that) and he believes the U.S. is just as corrupt but it's legalized here. But then my cousin from Chihuahua was like "Mexico is really corrupt and it sucks." But she's a working-class girl and the experience of direct corruption might be more in your face.
But I dunno.
Fun story. There used to be… might still be… big radio towers on the Mexican side of the border colloquially called "border blasters" because Mexican regulations were much looser, so they could blast at much higher wattage into the U.S., and some English-language stations in the U.S. would run on their frequencies (possibly lower cost as well). But they were required to read Mexican government announcements periodically (by law), so some guy driving down the highway in Arizona would be listening to country-western music and then during a break, American accented voices speaking English would do a skit where a woman says "The mayor of my town said he would cut off my utilities if I didn't vote for him in the coming election! What do I do????" and then a guy says "Government officials threatening to withhold services in exchange for votes is a federal crime! Please report that to the National Anti-Corruption System! Fighting corruption is the duty of our republic!" And the guy in Arizona listening to this is like what the hell lol
>>1849727Here in Germany you either go to Uni or do three years of 600-1000 Euro slave labor called "Ausbildung" for a job that has shit pay and/or bad working hours.
>>1849725Because when you believe the alternative will be worse than the present, you'll do anything to maintain the pain you've grown accustomed to. Sure the ship is sinking, but at least the water isn't in my cabin yet.
>>1849725the treats keep flowing…
>>1849805Do people really mostly buy into legalism? There's a parallel petite-bourgeois pro-capitalist mindset that is basically "if i can break/bend the rules, that's how I'll make it out". I don't know which is more prevalent, but the latter seems very popular as well. But then again maybe I consort with lumpen too often idk.
then again, lumpenization is partially a choice, the choice to refuse competition for slots in a body-destroying and soul-deadening job, to instead try to make enough money to bypass all that somehow by selling drugs or robbing. In that way it's a very authentic proletarian ideology
They aren't okay with it they just dont know why its happening and blame scapegoats, where I am it's foreigners and the government. IDK about you but everyone I know is bitching about the economy, the cost of living, the explosion of homelessness, etc.
Whats even more absurd is that people are still choosing to bring new life into this world.
They feel entitled to have families yet they dont have the skills or meams to raise them.
>>1851213same, where I am people are complaining about the homeless (other people, not themselves or their family), the cost of living (meanwhile they still make do, they just adjust their expectations down), being broke (but they still make enough money to keep the lights on, they use food banks and charities to fill the gaps and they stay fed and housed), the economy (but only in order to talk about voting for Trump), and so on. I don't know I genuinely believe that enough working people are just doing well enough that they aren't compelled to start seriously seeking alternatives - and those alternatives are currently not seeking them very strongly either! sadly.
>>1851258my coworkers constantly advocate beating children into obedience for the smallest things, even just having an independent personality. It's extremely depressing. And so many people are openly addicted to something, and so many are not wanting to stay where they are but are seeking "bigger and better" (but not, you know, fundamental social changes). The culture is so individualist.
>>1851270actually I want to add what the homeless are talking about: most I've talked to either plan on remaining homeless and making it work, or they have a scheme to get some good money quick with little effort and then get housed and turn it into a business, one unique guy I talked to kind of took care of lots of the people around the camps in the area and he had like a whole 10 step plan on how he was going to get housed, stay housed, get his girlfriend out too, and everything. But he never made it so far as I saw.
In general it seems like the people who actually are dealing with the full ramifications of the economic hardships going on right now have various bourgeois-aligned ways out for the most part. Either via charities, philanthropy, etc. (which is surprisingly available), via illegal means, or just via taking on more hours (can include making young kids take care of each other - I say this because the family is kind of a reserve of time that can be eaten into by the bourgeoisie, it's where labor is spent to grow the next generation of workers, making it a place where labor can be taken for short-term gains and long-term difficulties)
but again - revolutionary alternatives, as well as a strong culture of mutual aid, care, solidarity, just doesn't exist and it's kind of our fault for not doing well enough on that front and showing people alternatives.
>>1851258I doubt they're "entitled" to raise families, so much as doing so because that's the cultural plan laid out for them, propagandized, threateningly implicated at many junctures throughout one's youth.
>>1851270>beating children … even just having an independent personality>The culture is so individualist.Or is it clannish or tribal?
>>1849725the people have no say in public policy so they can't reform the political system
they're afraid of fascism so they won't drop out of the political system
they're afraid of dying violently so they won't overthrow the political system
the only option left for most people is to become a lib who gets defensive the minute anyone makes demands that are too "unreasonable"
>>1851279ok good point, I'll have to qualify that. They're individualist in the sense that they live within a sort of narcissistic, social darwinian, perverse social structure where everyone is expected to be a competitive individual, but at every level there is someone higher who each individual is equally expected to both conform to as an ideal, and obey. These dual dictates make everyone (who buys into this) both leader and follower, self-expressing individual and conformist, rule-follower and rule-maker. It lends itself to absurdities like displays of obedience up front and subversion (for personal ends) behind the back of authority - but what doesn't lend itself to contradiction is the ultimate ideal of the authority who is obeyed by all, to which everyone strives.
So not individualist in the anarchist sense, or in some philosophical sense as if they believe deeply in an egalitarian ideal of everyone being allowed equal individuality. They are particularly for themselves as individuals, and no other individual. So yeah also it's clannish and tribal, but not in a way that lends itself to a solid group definition or lasting norms, just in the sense of requiring obedience to authority for its own sake (well, because "or else").
>>1851324everyone has a fear of dying violently. the problem is that Americans have zero desire to kill violently
>>1855687Wrong, Americans love killing people it's mostly the other workers, schoolchildren, and themselves
>>1849725because I'm a coward who understands that if I join LE REVOLUTION i will likely be a rank and file soldier in a trench rather than a lenin writing theory and giving rousing speeches, or a cheka officer shooting POW /pol/yps in the back of the neck.
>>1855690this is why accelerationists are retarded. they think making the people more desperate will bring about the revolution. perhaps. but the revolution will be better organized if the people are better organized. More unions, more co-ops, more mutal aid, more concessions, more social democracy, this will mean the proletariat has more free time to organize. The bourgeoisie are so well organized because they have all the leisure time in the world from living off of the surplus we create for them. But we're expected to be miserable AND activist at the same time .
>>1857573the closest the west ever came to socialism was the pre-Thatcher UK and social democracy.
>>1855690>>1857573>we'll get communism if we make the petit-bourgeois largerWhat? This is some real Malthus shit that was refuted by fucking Marx back in the day. That's not how capitalism nor communism even work.
Before you get on my case I'm not saying we should make the proletariat more miserable (technically the proletariat is already as miserable as they can be) but reformism is useless class collaborationist bullshit too.
>More unions, more co-ops, more mutal aidNone of these amount o jackshit by themselves and are only useful if they are done with the goal of uniting the proletariat and abolishing capital in mind.
>more concessions, more social democracyLmao…
>>1857579>we'll get communism if we make the petit-bourgeois largerwho are you quoting you dishonest little shit
>>1857576?! The closest we came to communism was the (early) USSR and the wave of (failed) revolutions in the early 20th century. What the fuck does electoralism even have to do with it?
>>1857579>None of these amount o jackshit by themselves and are only useful if they are done with the goal of uniting the proletariat and abolishing capital in mind.did I say anything to contradict that?
>Lmao…ok. less concessions. more misery. muh acceleration.
>>1857580Your very same post is talking about increasing welfare, reforms that only strengthen the petite-bourgeoisie and increase social mobility, absolutely nothing to do with the movement.
>>1857582Nothing to do with "accelerationism", which I consider a meaningless meme anyway. The problem with this belief is that it ends up being an obstacle to the very organization you claim to advocate - you lead the working class on all sorts of goose-chases, detracting from its energy and strength by enticing it into the marsh of tax reform and other middle-class crusades.
Capitalism cannot be reformed away, especially on a global scale. It depends entirely on the existence of an immiserated proletariat.
>>1857581USSR isnt the west
>>1857676Well, Lenin hinged entirely on a revolution happening in Europe, but that too failed and in turn doomed the USSR too. That was the closest "the west" got to revolution.
>>1857682not really close at all then. you may as well include may '68 in france, italy '48, greece, the german revolution, even the easter rising although thats a stretch.
>>1857691Indeed, it's a sad state of affairs for the whole world.
>>1858288
Back and still as much an incoherent retard as ever.
>>1858319I think I speak for basically everyone when I say I wish I knew less about you people but you've made this more or less impossible. I wish I didn't have to live with the image of some balding leftist 30-something ironyposter snickering to himself over Simpsons memes in my mind.
>>1849725>colleges are debt slave machines but parents will still push their kids into going. Petit porky problems.
>But everyone seems to be ok with it or at least tolerant. Why?Most workers feel that there are no alternatives for capitalism besides North Korean style concentration camp communism.
>>1857582>you lead the working class on all sorts of goose-chases, detracting from its energy and strength by enticing it into the marsh of tax reform and other middle-class crusades.I never mentioned "tax reform" or "middle class crusades." Stop being blatantly dishonest. I just pointed out that a working class that has already won some social-democratic concessions and isn't beaten down has more free time to organize, read theory, attend meetings, militarize become part of a revolutionary cadre etc… whereas if a prole is working 60 hours a week, has 3 kids, is in huge debt to college, and is so poorly educated that they can barely read, let alone understand marxist theory, doesn't have health care, etc. etc., they are going to have trouble organizing even for the preliminary struggles of forming cooperatives, unions, etc., let alone the larger revolutionary struggle. All these prelminary struggles compliment the larger struggle. A union can become bourgeois, corrupt, etc. but it can also become subordinate to a revolutionary party. That's the point I'm trying to make. Not whatever dishonest characterization you have here about "middle class crusades."
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