Because we’re hopeless. Pity is the best we’re ever going to get.
People dont fight back because are afraid of death, imprisionement, etc. The critique of capital today exists only as another form of propagation of capital, making it impossible to imagine real change. The pity you talk about, guaranted by "free speech", only exists as another comodity in the society of spectacle, characteristic of the modern era.
>>1861947Sounds about right. “Subversive” identity (neurodivergent, queer, etc.) has become commodified and just another product capitalism can cash in on. I guess pity is a part of that.
>>1861942In a society as harsh as ours pity is the only positive attention oppressed and marginalized people get. If I’m struggling every day I want pity because it makes others empathize with me and the oppression I face. And pity isn’t a bad thing. It shows care for others.
>>1861957Pity in itself is not the problem, but the comodification of pity, the fact that people need tô "compete" for pity, etc. Is all tied to individualism, and modern capitalism.
>liberal/idpol Left
no such thing. they're just liberals.
>>1861959What would even be the word for le "individualism" in German, because I think you're moralizing way beyond Marx.
Modern leftist politics is based on pity a lot. Especially that intersectional feminist stuff (I’m not saying all intersectional feminism is bad, some of it is really insightful, but a lot of it is super emotional and relies on pity).
>>1861959What’s wrong with demanding pity if pity is needed for your survival?
>>1862019Ah, you mean "intersectional".
>be me>play Sensitivity Monopoly>roll 12>Community Chest!>Go back 3 spaces>Hard R Boardwalk>With three HR managers>$1400 fine>So how was your Monday?
“Community care” and “radical joy” are arguably forms of pity politics.
Pity, or consideration? I don't see people demanding pity, pity is useless.
>>1861966>Leftno such thing, since we're pointing things out. they're liberals and we're a range of socialists.
>>1861973I did not take this conclusion from Karl Marx, but a quote of "capitalist realism", maybe it is closer to the frankfurt school or gransci or something, never read any books of those authors although.
>>1862079Social rentierism, cute
I'd liken it a lot to the siege mentality.
Every identity group (yes, including white Christian males) in post-modernity believes they are under siege, that there's some "man behind the curtain" looking to wipe them out. Some guy on the music board said Zionists see "antisemitism" everywhere and anti-Zionists see "Zionism" everywhere and I'd say this comrade is 100% correct.
Ask queer people why they hate capitalism and they'll tell you it's because capitalism compels them to be cishet.
Ask autistic people why they hate capitalism and they'll tell you it's because capitalism compels them to "mask" or wants to wipe them out through "eugenics" or whatever.
Ask academic intersectional Black feminists why they hate capitalism and they'll tell you it's because capitalism compels them into a eurocentric way of being.
Clearly, this isn't Marxism. No one ever says they hate capitalism because of the falling rate of profit or overproduction or the fact capitalism needs to morph into imperialism out of necessity in order to take over new markets and grow indefinitely with no end in sight. It's only about "ME ME ME".
The bottom line here is preservation of identity. Identity in the postmodern world has very little material basis anymore and has largely been reduced to an aesthetic (hence why anyone can identity as "queer" or self-diagnose as "neurodivergent" if they feel like they don't fit in). The only way identity can truly affirm itself is by being pitted against the rest of society, hence why the siege mentality is so prevalent. "I'M NOT USEFUL TO CAPITALISM SO CAPITALISM WANTS TO WIPE ME OUT!" Main Character Syndrome on steroids.
Pity plays into this because being pitied means someone else outside of your identity group feels morally obligated to serve you. The big Other recognizes you as you demand to be recognized and shows sympathy to you, hence affirming your identity.
>>1862332 (me)
Forgot to mention that in a neoliberal culture whereby everything has become a commodity all social interactions function like a marketplace. In the market you don't use psychology to connect with others, you use leverage. What's going on here is that identity is being used as leverage. If one can sell you the idea they're under siege by the Big Bad Wolf they can use moral blackmail to make you do whatever they want.
>>1861947>The critique of capital today exists only as another form of propagation of capital, making it impossible to imagine real change.Could you elaborate on this point?
>>18619451 pity has been deposited onto your account
>>1862332>posts a pity party about post-ModernismModernism is reactionary. Sorry, boomer, meta-Modernism is already picking up stream from post-Modernism and it's even whinier than you are.
>>1861942Because they're pathetic
/thread
>>1862339>Modernism is reactionary.No, u
>>1862339>picking up streamNow this is a portmanteau. But what does it mean?
>>1862332>>1862333Is this Carlos from MWM by chance?
>>1862332>Ask queer people why they hate capitalism and they'll tell you it's because capitalism compels them to be cishet.
>Ask autistic people why they hate capitalism and they'll tell you it's because capitalism compels them to "mask" or wants to wipe them out through "eugenics" or whatever.Except it's way more than that. Job and housing discrimination still exist. Nearly half of all trans people are unemployed. 85% of autistic people are unemployed. A large number of transwomen in particular are houseless. Both trans people and autistic people can be legally killed in some places. Look up trans panic. If mothers kill their autistic children they will usually receive little to no punishment for it and there's been multiple instances of this. Both trans people and autistic people are also way more prone to police brutality. A lot of transwomen get brutalized by cops on the basis the cops think they're sex workers. Autistic people have been shot by police because they couldn't pick up on social cues which ended in them being brutalized.
I think the siege mentality is perfectly logical when there are actual people out there trying to kill you.
>>1862359And are trans and autistic people being hunted down and mass-murdered like Palestinians in Gaza currently are? Are they being shoved into ghettos with no way out? Is the FBI actively waging a war on trans and autistic communities?
If anything, trans and autistic people are the identity groups that have been the most catered to in the past 10-15 years. Elite universities now have "neurodivergent sensory rooms" for y'all. The number of adults identifying as autistic has exploded in the past few years because everyone is motivated to run out and seek a diagnosis for some cultural reason or another (most likely due to the fallout from covid). Hell, people are even debating whether or not autism should even be classified as a disability rather than a benign "difference."
Trans people are the most visible they've ever been. Transphobia is now becoming taboo and you can be canceled or fired for saying anything remotely deemed transphobic.
The reason the siege mentality persists in spite of all the progress is because identity can only be affirmed if it has an enemy. Insist that the social injustice that existed decades ago is still around and even more extreme and you've got one.
>>1862362>And are trans and autistic people being hunted down and mass-murdered like Palestinians in Gaza currently are? Are they being shoved into ghettos with no way out? Is the FBI actively waging a war on trans and autistic communities?It is not a competition? Are any trans and austistic crying about how Palestinians are getting too much attention?
>>1862367The pity economy is a zero sum game. There's only so much pity to go around. Palestinian suffering is a shame, but they should have solidarity and let the rest of us have some pity too.
>>1862367What exactly do autistic people have to worry about that isn't just standard economic problems everyone is facing under capitalism, especially now that most of the cultural stigmas are being addressed and combated?
Most of what autism advocates on social media are demanding is infeasible. Remember nine years ago when the Syrian refugee crisis happened in Europe? There was no war in Greece, yet Syrian refugees weren't happy in Greece; they all wanted to go to Norway and demanded aid workers bring them there for free. Yet, how many Greek workers wished that they could move to Norway? It's the exact same scenario with autism advocates. Angry Aspies on TikTok and IG insist any attempt at integrating them into mainstream society is an attack on their identity. They insist masking is "psychologically torturous" and instead demand they all get a UBI so they never have to work again. Yet, how many neurotypical people wish that they could just quite their soulless and low-paying jobs and live off of free money from the government? Why do low-needs Aspies believe they're more entitled to things neurotypicals will never be entitled to?
So Zoe finally gets an autism diagnosis at age 26. She now has an excuse to drop out of society despite the fact she has a college degree and was previously employed. No one expects her to be anything more than an eternal couch potato so she can fuck right off and live the good life. Yet her sister Ava doesn't have that label and has to keep working her minimum wage job as a Starbucks barista. She has zero excuse despite barely being able to afford rent and living a miserable, alienating existence. See what I mean?
no palestinian ever banned me for palestophobia
>>1862380Zoe is statistically 5x more likely to commit suicide than Ava is. That's why.
>>1862380>Most of what autism advocates on social media are demanding is infeasible. Remember nine years ago when the Syrian refugee crisis happened in Europe? There was no war in Greece, yet Syrian refugees weren't happy in Greece; they all wanted to go to Norway and demanded aid workers bring them there for free. WTF are you talking about? Greece got saturated with refugees and they turned the country into a refugee camp. No one was going to integrate the fucking millions of refugees in tiny ass broke ass Greece, no duh people fled to greener pastures where they could earn a living.
Jesus Christ some of you people are so unaware of basic current affairs yet spending your whole life on news commentary forums.
>>1862388I've been suicidal all my life but the notion that I should be allowed to freeload because of it is revolting to me.
>>1862388And what's the solution to this problem, then? Give me a political program, not something vague like: "autistic people need to be accepted for who they innately are."
>>1862391I was repeating what Zizek said on the matter. Syrian refugees weren't merely escaping from war but were also seeking out the European dream, a dream that had since been long dead in Europe.
>integrateThat's the thing. They didn't want to be integrated. They didn't even want to register with the aid workers on the basis it was degrading.
>>1862380>Angry Aspies on TikTok and IG insist any attempt at integrating them into mainstream society is an attack on their identity. They insist masking is "psychologically torturous" and instead demand they all get a UBI so they never have to work again. Yet, how many neurotypical people wish that they could just quite their soulless and low-paying jobs and live off of free money from the government? This seems more like a problem with entitlement culture than autistic people specifically. Everyone believes everyone else has to do shit for them yet they shouldn't have to do anything for others.
>>1862400As per OP, autists were just one example.
>>1862398>Syrian refugees weren't merely escaping from war but were also seeking out the European dream, a dream that had since been long dead in Europe.What does that have to do with Greece vs. the rest of Europe? Everything you said was retarded.
>That's the thing. They didn't want to be integrated. They didn't even want to register with the aid workers on the basis it was degrading.More retardation.
>I was repeating what Zizek said on the matter.Retard says retard things why repeat it?
>>1862402Why is he retarded? He is just making a point about empathy; that refugees are opportunistic people too, who internalise the external image of fruitful europe, when europe cannot even provide for its own citizens. Here in the UK many complain how migrants receive houses and benefits while citizens sleep on the streets. This is a contradiction in the *image* of the west's wealth - like how they clear out london of homeless for the king's coronation, or clean up san francisco for xi jinping's visit. Now many migrants are not receiving the same benefits due to numbers and are seeing through the sham.
>>1862400To use the Syrian example again (in spite of:
>>1862402 (you)): from their perspective, Syrian refugees felt that they shouldn't have had to integrate, because why should they have to follow the rules of the big bad western oppressor? Yet they had no issue with taking advantage of western compassion.
Aspies on social media are exactly the same in this regard. They ask why should they have to work on their social deficiencies if all it amounts to is playing by the evil neurotypical rulebook, yet they have no issue demanding pity from neurotypicals.
At what point does the oppressor vs. oppressed dynamic become useless in these cases? And at what point is identity merely being used as leverage or moral blackmail?
>>1862406This is exactly the point I was getting at.
>>1862406Maybe your problems have more to do with being a welfare-nanny state than immigrants.
My cousin lived 10 years as a refugee in Italy and didn't make anything, she moved to America and now she has hundreds of thousands in assets 10 years.
Smart Euros get the fuck out and build wealth in greener pastures just like the refugees in Europe.
>>1862412Cut to the chase. Where can I buy your NFTs?
>>1862413You're projecting is what I'm saying. You think everyone in the world is a welfare queen and needs the government to "provide for them."
That's all you. Look where it got you.
>>1862415And before you "in a communist society" me you know you don't live in one. You know that welfare is just a mechanism to suppress dissent yet you won't get out of your suppressed mentality.
>>1862415Not him, but that's not what he was arguing at all. He was saying, as Zizek was saying, Syrian refugees held idealized views of Europe as being a land paved with gold where everyone gets loads of goodies for free. That's why, in spite of being perfectly safe from war in a poorer EU nation like Greece, they all demanded to go to a richer EU nation like Norway or Germany. Yet when they arrive in Norway or Germany they realize the "Europe" they had been sold no longer exists. I remember reading articles during that time about Syrian refugees who were told the German government would give them a free house FFS. When that didn't manifest they went back to Syria.
>>1862419>That's why, in spite of being perfectly safe from war in a poorer EU nation like Greece, they all demanded to go to a richer EU nation like Norway or Germany.The Greeks did not want them nor could keep them if they did. Why do you keep repeating retardation?
>>1862420It's not one or the other. Greece couldn't accommodate them and they simultaneously wanted to go to some place "better."
>>1862422It defeats your metaphor because staying in Greece wasn't an option they could just suck it up and accept.
>>1862396You change the culture so it's more centered around autistic traits and needs. Make communication and language more direct. Stop using so much sarcasm or ambiguous language. Stop requiring eye contact. Stop stigmatizing stimming in public. Stop stigmaitizing being a loner. Let autistic people flourish.
>>1862423So why Norway or Germany rather than Serbia or Bulgaria?
How many Arabs talk about the need to re-take muh al-Andalus yet how many Syrian refugees went to Spain?
>>1862424>Make communication and language more direct. Stop using so much sarcasm or ambiguous language.Ah, so we make language and communication more inclusive by dumbing it down so Aspies can feel less othered? Isn't ambiguity part of what makes language beautiful? Should we force society into normalizing having the language of six-year olds then? Would that not prevent autistic suicides?
>>1862426We changed language to be more inclusive of trans and queer people. We no longer say things like "pregnant woman" but "pregnant person" instead. Why shouldn't language be changed to suit autistic people?
>>1862429Trans people don't need language to be stripped of its ambiguity and therefore beauty to feel included.
>>1862052>>Hard R BoardwalkFucking kek
>>1862359Most of those examples are not people
trying to kill anyone. They're real, they're horrible and they're systematic, and yes some people are actually trying to kill trans people, although those examples you listed don't substantiate your claim.
>>1862369>pity is a zero sum gameThis is obvious, literal nonsense.
>>1862388I have tinnitus. What do I deserve?
>>1862344The core of meta-Modernism is the selective negation of post-Modern deconstruction. Remember that "debate is just entertainment" comment that set our meta-Modernist Destiny into an absolute tizzy? That comment undermined the possibility that anyone can "be" (not just pose as) a serious agent, without all the weight of being a serious actor, if that makes sense.
I've probably explained this poorly, as caffeine is still kicking in.
really it was a typo, but in typos there slips truth
>>1862396>Give me a political programHiow about mandatory lobotomies for anyone trying to reproduce capitalist relations? Really killing yourself is all the political program you useless middle-class fleshlights should bother your pretty little heads with.
>>1862515Postmodernity and its offspring is just pedophilic french decadence that obscures the class struggle in a strained and amateurish empiricism
>>1862398>I was repeating what ZizekYou should kill yourself for sucking the balls of capitalism's court jester and for taking the Ljubljana school seriously.
You should also kill yourself for reproducing any part of Protestant culture.
>>1862380>What exactly do autistic people have to worry about that isn't just standard economic problems everyone is facing under capitalism, especially now that most of the cultural stigmas are being addressed and combated?Eugenics, you son of a bitch
There was never an entire ideology meant to justify the genocide of able bodied proles, but there absolutely was an entire movement that promoted the eradication of mentally disabled people and it still exists today
>>1862523>pSyChOlOgY iS a tOoL oF tHe dEvIlPiety is a mental illness. Lobotomize yourself for being a whiny drama loving cuck.
>>1862530You are medicalising me now! Dont use your normative biopower against me otherwise you will be abusing the power relation. I feel othered and need social compensation.
>>1862546Kill yourself for repeating your subculture's talking points.
>>1862464At any given moment there is a limited amount of pity available in the attention economy. On average a single person has 2.17 pity to spare a day that could be spent different ways, for example giving change to a beggar and retweetng a post on twitter asking for pity, after that most people run out of pity per day to share.
This means that on the online pity market, specifically Twitter, there are 105.42 million American users, each having 2.17 pity a day, totaling 228.8 million pities available on burger twitter each day. Considering that the Palestinian genocide has been trending for months now, it is safe to assume that a good 60-70% of the pity available is being hogged by a foreign entity, while the rest of us (trans, neurodivergent, etc.) have to compete for a significantly shrunken pool of pity for months now.
It's been tough, really. Worst day was when that dude lit himself on fire for Palestine. That day no matter how hard we posted about the challenges we face in cishet/neurotypical society rarely a like or retweet or supporting comment came by, making many of us feel destitute and considering suicide.
In short, the pity economy is not something to take lightly. It's the LEAST thing society owes us after what they did to us.
>inb4 just use pity bots on twitter!!!It's not the same, and you know it. It's like telling vampires to drink vegetable-based blood instead of proper human blood. Real pity gives us strength and a will to go on and bot-based synthetic pity can only sustain one a few days before the suicidal thoughts come haunting us again.
Everything is true. I saw the rivarly between Poles and Jews in getting pity, except Jews do get pity and Poles not at all, they are thought as right-wing bigots still. That's typical for dumb liberals.
>>1862743On the other hand, the politics of adversity fetishism are cancer too.
>>1862747>please give me internet points because my relative died 5 weeks agoshe deserves worse
>>1862750Not really. The chvd pressing that Evroid adulthood institution should be subject to a very spirited conversation, however.
>>1862526And yet there’s mass hysteria about “eugenics” from nearly all political sides. Who is committing “eugenics” against Aspies and why?
>>1862519>>1862524You're visibly upset.
>>1862526>Eugenics>and it still exists todayKek. Can you show real concrete instances of "eugenics" against autistic people in the past 10 years? Are they being rounded up and put into camps? Are they being forcefully sterilized? The only "eugenics" I see is taking away certain disability benefits, yet that's just austerity and it affects all disabled people, not just Aspies/autists.
If it was found that lack of vitamin D during pregnancy caused autism (which several studies are now showing) would telling pregnant people to get more vitamin D be "eugenics" against autistic people?
If it was found that overstimulation during infancy caused autism, would finding ways to deal with that be "eugenics" against autistic people?
If mold exposure during pregnancy and infancy was found to cause autism, would the government providing free mold checks to the homes of pregnant people be "eugenics" against autistic people?
Where should the line be drawn and how should it be determined?
Heck, a few months ago it was reported scientists in Germany found the genetic mutation that causes autoimmune disease. Meaning, it won't be long before they can CRISPR that shit out of existence. Now I'm sure there are some people who suffer from lupus or fibromyalgia who believe their chronic illness gives them a unique perspective on life and shouldn't be cured or prevented, right? Why would it be moral to prevent physical disabilities but not developmental disabilities?
Bloody hell, telling pregnant women not to smoke is technically "eugenics" by the Angry Aspie definition.
>>1861942It makes sense for zoomers to crave pity given so many of us grew up in dysfunctional homes with Gen X parents who were notoriously harsh. Most of us were born either right before 9/11 or right after and we never got to have that idyllic 90s childhood that most millennials got.
>>1862789Politics is a mental illness. Stop whining.
>>1862462I think a much better way of explaining it is that the system isn't running around killing anymore intentionally but rather let's vulnerable people die by making it harder for them to survive. When you feel the whole world is against you it's very easy to believe there's some kind of malicious conspiracy to deliberately wipe you out.
>>1862846It has been found that male circumcision causes autism. What happened is that certain religious authorities overrode attempted bans on the procedure in at least one country.
So you have your answer, now kys for trying to reproduce Protestant culture and whining like a old henpecked man about it.
>>1862853Yes. When you're struggling and everyone else around you appears to be surviving and thriving you start thinking in terms of conspiracy. But that's the thing: how do you know everyone else around you is, in fact, surviving and thriving and not falling into holes of their own?
Identity politics internalizes the notion that "this system wasn't made for me" even when "the system" has no real god-master who created it.
>>1861942>Identity politics internalizes the notion that "this system wasn't made for me" even when "the system" has no real god-master who created it.But isn't your purpose for posting here the enforcement of dead people's property rights? I mean, social conservatives have an entire system for producing mental defectives and you sound more jealous than anything that your ontological defects aren't buying you as much attention as you'd like. Very normal for people who watch reactionary podcasts which tell their viewers how socialist they are.
>>1862859>Identity politics internalizes the notion that "this system wasn't made for me" even when "the system" has no real god-master who created it.We all make "the system" and we can just as well refuse the order, which will change the way it is made in ways that are not necessarily immediate or obvious at first examination. ("Otherwise the application of the theory to any period of history would be easier than the solution of any simple equation.")
However, conservatives stand in the way of social evolution because of the sequelae of comprehensive social reproduction systems that treat the future adult as entirely a mere vessel. They are intentionally broken people and they have nothing to offer us.
Its not just the left.
The right suffers from this too.
>>1861959glorification of suffering a badge of maturity.
Most people swap stories of personal suffering as a way to justify whatever shitty take they have.
Its used as crutch for arrested development.
>>1862332>Ask queer people why they hate capitalism and they'll tell you it's because capitalism compels them to be cishet … The bottom line here is preservation of identity … "I'M NOT USEFUL TO CAPITALISM SO CAPITALISM WANTS TO WIPE ME OUT!" I think that's…. true… though. Irrespective of the problems with identity politics, the push back against it often holds that there's some antagonistic contradiction between "I want to live out my identity as a gay person to the fullest" and socialist politics. Socialist politics is supposed to be universal but gay identity politics is too particular. But it's unclear how this is the case, or what this means in practice. If it refers to the exclusion suffered on account of being a certain identity, that seems to be the fault of systemic oppression, not the identity itself. The former should be the proper focus of the attack. If the argument is not referring to that, then it has the unfortunate implication that being black, being Palestinian, being a woman, etc. is incompatible with full participation in society (for some unexplained reason). Well, in one of those cases in particular (Palestinian) that is true under the present way of things – and systems of privilege and power really are trying to wipe them out!
This push back (along with the contempt for pity) strikes a Nietzschean tone. The left has adopted a slave morality and allowed too much "diversity" in, so the left needs to contract to be more sleek, homogenous and spartan. More able to be decisively managed in a struggle. But that might not be what the ruling class really fears. Nietzsche after all believed the "slave morality" (the urge to level, the contempt for strength) had a lot of power, that's what made him afraid of it. Maybe all of these people saying they hate capitalism for [reasons] are differing particulars, but they have something in common. The overall thrust of that argument is that liberation must include both the particular and the universal. Like, "struggling as women/gays/blacks/Palestinians/etc. but also as humans," or these particulars forcing the universal to expand.
>>1862881Good game this tonight we riot, but you need to pay for it, so it is not communist but bourgeoisie clearly
>>1862462>Most of those examples are not people trying to kill anyone. They're real, they're horrible and they're systematic, and yes some people are actually trying to kill trans people, although those examples you listed don't substantiate your claim.I think this is a liberal way to look at it. Is the state itself trying to kill people the end-all/be-all of what constitutes oppression? (I think the state works more optimally when it doesn't have to.) Or maybe what I said is unfair because you do say what trans people deal with is bad and systematic. But, like, my boss isn't literally "trying to kill me" either but he still exercises power over me, even if it's often latent or unexercised (but that could arbitrarily change at any moment).
I have to be friends with him, or remain on good terms, laugh at his jokes. If I don't, he might fire me. Will he? I don't know. But his power exists, and that is the reality for working people, so working people *in general* cannot be understood to have freedom from domination by other people in capitalism on the level of a status. As far as I can tell, trans people *in particular* don't have real freedom either, and much for similar reasons. But I don't know how you square a socialist ethic or politics with the idea that people aren't oppressed if other people aren't literally trying to kill them.
>>1862880>glorification of suffering a badge of maturity.They like to think that they control where the beatings begin or end. Well, kick them in their special parts and bring your comrade friends.
>>1862902>They like to think that they control where the beatings begin or end. Well, kick them in their special parts and bring your comrade friends.is this a poem?
>>1862910We need more /poetry/-core stuff on this site
>>1862910Parody of the theme from
Mystery Science Theater 3000. Sort of, ah, détourning the détournement
>People who truly believe they have a cause to fight for and sacrifice for don’t hyperfixate on themselves but seek to transcend and push back against whatever hardships they have.
I think your error is that you think these people aren't doing that. Most of them operate under a liberal understanding of political development where you have to campaign and persuade people, combined with the fact that it's simply human to articulate your pain and garner sympathy. Given the existence and popularity of intersectionality among progressives it's safe to assume such people expend sympathy just as much as they expect it. As for hyper fixating on themselves, since when is that new or unusual? Everyone does, including your idealization of the proletariat fighting a revolutionary struggle. Psychologically, it's about them for themselves.
>What cultural forces would you pinpoint as the reason for why demand for pity has become such an obsession?
Doesn't sound like a materialist question, bucko. I would argue it's the reverse. Human beings are naturally social and empathetic and progressive politics is opening up the space to express that while previously a dog eat dog mentality dominated and still does for anyone who is not a progressive.
I love how leftypol outright hates identity politics unless it’s autistic identity politics.
>”nooooooo I love being autistic I’m special and unique I’m innately anti-capitalist the world needs to prioritize me I hate neurotypical people everything I don’t like is eugenics!!!!!”
You really are no different from standard SJWs in this regard. Fucking pathetic and out-if-character. Any other group idpoling this hard would be mocked and degraded by you guys.
>>1862915>Doesn't sound like a materialist question, bucko. I would argue it's the reverse. Human beings are naturally social and empathetic and progressive politics is opening up the space to express that while previously a dog eat dog mentality dominated and still does for anyone who is not a progressive.Tapping the sign again for the econfags.
<I have interpreted your first main phrase in the following way: According to the Materialist Conception of History, the factor which is in the last instance decisive in history is the production and reproduction of actual life. More than this neither Marx nor myself ever claimed. If now someone has distorted the meaning in such a way that the economic factor is the only decisive one, this man has changed the above proposition into an abstract, absurd phrase which says nothing. The economic situation is the base, but the different parts of the structure-the political forms of the class struggle and its results, the constitutions established by the victorious class after the battle is won, forms of law and even the reflections of all these real struggles in the brains of the participants, political theories, juridical, philosophical, religious opinions, and their further development into dogmatic systems-all this exercises also its influence on the development of the historical struggles and in cases determines their form. It is under the mutual influence of all these factors that, rejecting the infinitesimal number of accidental occurrences (that is, things and happenings whose intimate sense is so far removed and of so little probability that we can consider them non-existent, and can ignore them), that the economical movement is ultimately carried out. Otherwise the application of the theory to any period of history would be easier than the solution of any simple equation. We ourselves make our history, but, primarily, under pre-suppositions and conditions which are very well determined. But even the political tradition, nay, even the tradition that man creates in his head, plays an important part even if not the decisive one. The Prussian State has itself been born and developed because of certain historical reasons, and, in the last instance, economic reasons. But it is very difficult to determine without pedantry that, among the many small States of northern Germany, precisely Brandenburg has been destined by economic necessity and not also by other factors (above all its complications with Poland after the Prussian conquest and hence, also, with international politics-which, besides has also been decisive in the formation of the power of the Austrian ruling family), to become that great power in which are personified the economic, linguistic, and-after the Reformation-also the religious difference between the North and South. It would be mighty difficult for one who does not want to make himself ridiculous to explain from the economic point of view the existence of each small German State of the past and present, or even the phonetic differentiation of High German which extended the geographic division formed already by the Sudetti mountains as far as the Faunus.
>>1862526There are also plenty of people and groups who believe gay people shouldn’t exist yet I don’t see most gays holding a siege mentality to the extent autistic people do.
>>1862926Autistic people can't be conditioned into bourgeois society. Conservatives cry like stuck pigs about it, liberals medicalize it, both treat their own fully deserved failure to reproduce their mental illnesses as a "disorder", that's all.
>>1861942> For what reason has there become such a fixation on pity rather than, say, empowerment? Real revolutionaries don’t allow themselves to fall into pity because all it does is demoralize them in the long-run. People who truly believe they have a cause to fight for and sacrifice for don’t hyperfixate on themselves but seek to transcend and push back against whatever hardships they have.Neoliberalism has made the culture fundamentally narcissistic at its core. Nobody fights for a “cause” anymore, they fight for narcissistic supply.
>>1862928> Autistic people can't be conditioned into bourgeois society. Completely false. Autistic people can be just as evil as neurotypicals, if not moreso. Autism doesn’t turn you into some naive, innocent little child.
>>1862928People literally said gays and lesbians couldn’t be conditioned into bourgeois norms either once upon a time yet here we are with corporate Pride Month and rainbow flags hanging outside if banks.
>>1862941I said they couldn't be conditioned into bourgeois society, such as the bourgeois morality you're trying to bore me with right now.
>le blank slateI didn't say that. I said they couldn't be conditioned INTO bourgeios society.
>>1862944>gays and lesbians couldn’t be conditioned into bourgeois normsAre you saying that homosexuality is a brain disease?
>>1862950Explain what bourgeois morality is.
>>1862950Explain what bourgeois morality is.
>>1862950Explain what bourgeois morality is.
>>1862950NTA homosexuality and heterosexuality are both mental illnesses
>>1862950> Are you saying that homosexuality is a brain disease?Homosexuality was still in the DSM until the mid 1980s. It was absolutely seen as a “brain disease” and yet now LGBTQ people are more accepted than they’ve ever been.
>>1862961*behavioral disorders but yes
>>1862965But persons with autism are not.
>>1862964>Poor little Aspie wants to see himself as “special” so he insists his identity is innately anti-capitalist even though he lives his life as a shut-in and can’t socialize.I actually don't care about identity at all. That's bourgeois shit. I'm a big fan of preventing you from reproducing *your* mental illness/identity, however.
Have you considered thatbourgeois society is better destroyed than participated in? That your values aoblige nobody to anything?
Nietzschean schizo thread
>>1861942>For what reason has there become such a fixation on pity rather than, say, empowerment?Empowerment is not allowed to be part of the discussion
>>1862332My understanding is that the cultural superstructure is easier to critique than the economic base so people critique that.
>>1861942wow people "demand" empathy
what a fucking crime, ben shapiro
if anything, social media is gleefully cruel
>>1863056
Cognition, behavior, and personality are separate moments of the mind's practical-critical activity.
>>1863056
>They are obsessed with rationally ordering the world around them and arbitrary rules
Sounds like the perfect Marxist, then.
>They are loner individualists
Marx supported the full and free development of the individual. Are you one of those Zizek cokeheads? Or are you merely deflecting from the marcissistic masturbation that makes up your self-entitled utopia?
>incapable of socializing with others
Sounds like you're butthurt and entitled.
>They are like people who've been mentally brainwashed into taking modernity
Oh, like tankies and conservatives and Thiel's reactionary social critic podcasters?
>They are Marcuse's one dimensional men
You take Marcuse seriously?
>living in a totalitarian totally administered society.
Yep, that confirms it: you described your inner self by projecting it onto another. Good job. Now pull the poopoo lever and let's talk about material conditions which your feelings and judgments most definitely are not.
>>1862332> Ask autistic people why they hate capitalism and they'll tell you it's because capitalism compels them to "mask" or wants to wipe them out through "eugenics" or whatever.Autistic people can “unmask” all they want. I’m not obligated to put up with them or befriend them if I find their behaviours off putting or burdensome on me.
Same reason I’m not obligated to put up with anyone else whom I find offputting or burdensome.
>>1862928What makes you think autistic people would fair any better under communism, where group cohesion is necessary? I thought one of the main characteristics of autism is not caring about social groups or group dynamics at all. Wouldn’t the same be true in any system, much more in an illiberal system like communism?
>>1863342Socialism would have guaranteed jobs and housing and no need for bullshit networking in order to survive
>>1863193I think some autistic guy bullied your seething ass into lashing out on an anonymous imageboard about it. Being that obsessed with people who aren‘t harming anybody can‘t be healthy
Stop using this bullshit pop psychology and do some class analysis
>>1862332>muh authentic selfI love how this very notion presupposes that there's such a thing as an "authentic self" or "authentic identity" to begin with, that our "self" isn't merely a product of relations of production.
>>1863346>no need for bullshit networking in order to surviveThat's not true though. You'd still be part of a collective where you'd have to conform to some standard in order to connect with others. I assumed socialism was about a more communal economy where we cease being alienated from each other. An angry loner wouldn't do very well in that system.
>>1863346Yeah, except the main reasons autistic people have for hating capitalism aren't about jobs and housing but about them not being able to find a girlfriend or feeling left out of social events because they assume people only hate them due to capitalism creating a culture where autistic "traits" are seen as undesirable, which they can never fully explain.
>>1863410Where did you hear those particular claims?
>>1863342if autistic people can work, then that's the end of that
communism wont need to run on people smiling more or being able to do small talk more
and the infirm should be taken care of with compassion since there's no need to pretend they can't be in an advanced human society
>>1862939This.
What's called "pity" should more accurately be called narcissistic supply. Because that's what it is.
>>1861942>Why does it seem like the crux of the liberal/idpol Left is an obsession with pity and being pitied?Being a perpetual helpless victim who's unable to fight back is considered the most redemptive thing you can be.
Why do you think it is that the left celebrates the comrades who "lost" more than the comrades who won?
>>1863494>Why do you think it is that the left celebrates the comrades who "lost" more than the comrades who won?Bleh, you are falsely associating certain general behaviors with "the left." All ideologies value foot soldiers who will line up to sacrifice their life(martyrs) because that is the bases for every successful ideology.
>>1862928>both treat their own fully deserved failure to reproduce their mental illnesses as a "disorder", that's all.Are you suggesting autism is only considered a disability because of capitalism?
How would a level-3 autistic person who is completely non-verbal, profoundly intellectually disabled, and requires round-the-clock care to ensure they don't hurt others or themselves not be disabled under any other mode of production?
Even before capitalism, autistic children were frequently killed or exposed (left to die). Why do you think that was, when there was no "bourgeois society" yet? The big mistake here is thinking autism is only stigmatized because autistic people (allegedly) can't fit into capitalist social norms. Yet, autistic people do things which are frequently offputting to other autistic people.
You don't have some great metaphysical "anti-capitalist" attribute. Your entire post stinks of essentialism.
>>1862950The fact Elon Musk, Bill Gates, and Mark Zuckerberg are all confirmed Aspies debunks this notion entirely. Aspies seem to make the best capitalists, especially now that Big Tech is the ruling industry. "Revenge of the Nerds" in real time.
>>1862976Bourgeois society isn't destroyed by dropping out. Being a 24/7 loner with non-existent social skills doesn't beat back against anything. You might as well start advocating utopian socialism or "post-leftism" if you think like that.
>>1863496I'm speaking more to things like anarchists upholding Anarchist Catalonia and Makhno's Ukraine, Marxists upholding Rosa Luxemburg, and so on. Why celebrate the losers instead of the winners like USSR, China, and the DPRK?
>>1863513>winners like USSRWhat the fuck are you talking about winners thru failed and don't exist like the rest.
Nobody is 'upholding' those things anyway for the most part, which you would know if you went outside instead of being an Internet 'leftist'-coded hobbyist.
>>1863342>where group cohesion is necessaryI believe some measure of that perception is your latent Christianity talking. Or you interpreted Marx's pre-capitalist "communes" as a model for the future.
>>1863397Vulgar materialists should kts. No reifying
Homo oeconomicus you fascist faggot.
<According to the Materialist Conception of History, the factor which is in the last instance decisive in history is the production and reproduction of actual life. More than this neither Marx nor myself ever claimed. If now someone has distorted the meaning in such a way that the economic factor is the only decisive one, this man has changed the above proposition into an abstract, absurd phrase which says nothing. The economic situation is the base, but the different parts of the structure-the political forms of the class struggle and its results, the constitutions established by the victorious class after the battle is won, forms of law and even the reflections of all these real struggles in the brains of the participants, political theories, juridical, philosophical, religious opinions, and their further development into dogmatic systems-all this exercises also its influence on the development of the historical struggles and in cases determines their form. It is under the mutual influence of all these factors that, rejecting the infinitesimal number of accidental occurrences (that is, things and happenings whose intimate sense is so far removed and of so little probability that we can consider them non-existent, and can ignore them), that the economical movement is ultimately carried out. Otherwise the application of the theory to any period of history would be easier than the solution of any simple equation. We ourselves make our history, but, primarily, under pre-suppositions and conditions which are very well determined. But even the political tradition, nay, even the tradition that man creates in his head, plays an important part even if not the decisive one. >>1863406>I assumed socialism was about a more communal economy where we cease being alienated from each otherNo, you're looking for Christian Communism. Socialism is a meaningless warm fuzzy word and you need to stop whining for pity and read more theory (propaganda is NOT theory).
Because they are idealists, they value intentions over acts. They think capitalim is the natural state of things and that "harm reduction" is progress. A marginalized group, without addressing the material reasons, can only hope to be integrated in bourgeois politics and indirectly lifted from that status.
>>1863501>Are you suggesting autism is only considered a disability because of capitalism?Diagnosis is always fraught with politics because the norms against which "deviation" and "fitness" are measured are historically contingent.
>How would a level-3 autistic personI'm a bit more concerned about the other 3/4, and the many that are undiagnosed but still experience the rejection of a fascist social order obsessed with its perfect material and ideal reproduction. The ones who actually progress the material world instead of insiipd cosmic melodrama people are conditioned to say they enjoy.
>Yet, autistic people do things which are frequently offputting to other autistic peopleAnd? Do you think you have a right to intimacy with everyone, you emotional rapist?
>Bourgeois society isn't destroyed by dropping out.No, it is destroyed by preventing its successful reproduction. I thought fascists and liberals (same picture) knew this stuff? In any case, this is all in Marx, which you would do well to read instead of the fascists who stole his name.
>>1863513All ancestor worship is a prepubescent disorder. Hero cultism is crap.
>>1861942Because they are american liberals spooked by race and gender. They believe in the same ideas of race and gender as white supremicists just turned on their head.
People should have come to the correct conclusion that race and gender are completely made up bullshit designed to reproduce capitalist relations.
>>1862380I’m an early-diagnosed autistic (cis) woman who has studied my diagnosis extensively, and I’m willing to bet the vast majority of these “autistic” content creators on TikTok and IG aren’t actually autistic at all. Actual aspies don’t go out of their way to seek attention and validation; people with BPD, however, do. If someone is telling you that being autistic makes them anti-capitalist and a threat to the system, it’s far more likely they have BPD and are after credit from others.
>>1862332You’re missing one key component: under neoliberalism, one’s identity becomes their brand, the way corporations have brands, and the goal becomes to promote one’s brand over everyone else’s brand the same way corporations compete with one another in the marketplace. Autism, queerness, etc. are all “brands” under this era of capitalism. Validation of identity is simply about promoting oneself against everyone else. Social media has also made this 100x worse since everyone’s social media persona is a de facto brand.
>>1862332>Identity in the postmodern world has very little material basis anymore and has largely been reduced to an aestheticyoure a fucking moron i literally have a materially transgender body. i have a dick and titties. you stupid fuck. and i will be in many circumstances viciously punished for this fact by society. shut the fuck up you dumbass
>>1862362>Trans people are the most visible they've ever been. Transphobia is now becoming taboo and you can be canceled or fired for saying anything remotely deemed transphobic.you fell for the spectacle instead of caring about material factors like homelessness, trans kids being kicked out of their families homes, it being literally legal to murder us, etc. you stupid spectacle burger. god i hate morons like you. you should just shut the fuck up if you dont know what youre even talking about
>>1868228But anyone can identify as trans or non-binary now regardless as to their actual body, right? That’s what they meant by “no material basis”.
>>1862362>Trans people are the most visible they've ever beenyou say this like its a good thing? our main visibility is fox news spreading propaganda about us you stupidass fuck. then that spreads into every other right wing country. youre literally a dumbass and you should feel bad about yourself. you wrote this whole thread and it accomplishes what exactly? youre post is stupid as fuck
you stupid fucking liberal
>>1868237>But anyone can identify as trans or non-binary now regardless as to their actual body, right? That’s what they meant by “no material basis”.first off lots of non-binary people are trans people who are physically transitioned or even bordering on intersex in some way, definitely material. secondly supporting self-identification is to give solidarity to people whos situations are different, not everyone can transition, some trans people are trapped by circumstances to continue performing cis hetero lifestyles. so calling them "not trans" is disrespectful of among the most fucked over trans people of all. you just dont know what youre talking about and you once again fell for the "i can identify as an attack helicopter" fox news meme without knowing what the fuck youre even talking about.
>>1868231>>1868238There’s a pretty distinct difference between “identity politics” and “civil rights”. If queer/trans people were precisely fighting for civil rights (like the right to not face discrimination at work or housing) then that’s a perfectly legit thing. The problem comes with identity politics, believing you deserve to be catered to by the rest of society because your identity has a special uniqueness. That’s where you get this kind of identity competition.
>>1868242You seem to have emotional control issues from the tone of your post.
>>1868249>The problem comes with identity politics, believing you deserve to be catered to by the rest of society because your identity has a special uniqueness. That’s where you get this kind of identity competition.what catering? dumbass.
>>1868249>There’s a pretty distinct difference between “identity politics” and “civil rights”. If queer/trans people were precisely fighting for civil rightstheyre literally fighting for civil rights such as the right to use the bathroom in public and the right to purchase healthcare. you stupid fuck
>>1868250>You seem to have emotional control issues from the tone of your post.you're dumb as fuck anon, you want me to be all nice and polite to people spreading propaganda about people like me? get off this board liberal
>>1868255>theyre literally fighting for civil rights such as the right to use the bathroom in public and the right to purchase healthcare. you stupid fuckand that's just in the united states. and among the most publicized issues. did you not bother reading how even in some states of the US it's literally legal to kill trans people if they have sex with you without telling you they're trans? of course not. you think "being legal to kill them" isn't a civil rights issue?
you think "not being allowed to work certain types of jobs" elsewhere isn't a civil rights issue?
you didn't think any of this because you weren't thinking at all, you did no investigation, and yet you spoke a lot. what a shame
>>1868250A submissive, commercial comportment is not a proletarian virtue.
>>1868242Identity isn’t internal. It’s external. It’s not about what’s in your head but about what you do and the relations you have with others day-to-day. If self-identification is only about “group solidarity” then it seems like the main goal is finding a tribe and nothing else.
>>1868265>Identity isn’t internal. It’s external. It’s not about what’s in your head but about what you do and the relations you have with others day-to-day. If self-identification is only about “group solidarity” then it seems like the main goal is finding a tribe and nothing else.nice armchair diagnosis. only the external exists. how could I have fooled myself otherwise
idiot
>>1868267this is what happens on an imageboard where anyone, even random dumbasses who just decided to click on a thread, are allowed to write things. a lot of dumbass shit gets written.
>>1868265>Identity isn’t internal. It’s external. It’s not about what’s in your head but about what you do and the relations you have with others day-to-day. If self-identification is only about “group solidarity” then it seems like the main goal is finding a tribe and nothing else.tell me something, you rambling fool. was I "not transgender" before I transitioned? no, I was transgender. I'm the one who gets to define it. not you. you fucking imbecile. you don't know anything about what you're talking, it's just an abstract lingual construct to you. fucking dipshit.
>>1868249I think identity politics is that which has taken a deviation from civil rights, which is much more genuine. Civil rights is about getting equal human rights not matter what your disability, ethnicity, religion, or gender identification might be. Identity politics is about building your self-esteem by fighting various psychological wars on many fronts. I don’t think idpol does any good at all to society. Quite the reverse.
>>1868329identity politics is a liberal phenomenon that liberals use to project a facade of supporting minority rights, when in reality identity politics is a reaction against real civil rights for those same groups, which would in many cases require drastic restructuring of capital, which liberals would never support
unfortunately some of our comrades mistake the liberal identity politics and its talking points, for the real civil rights issues faced by the groups they purport to represent, and themselves end up taking the reactionary framing put forward by liberals to attack those groups, and accept the liberal framing as an accurate representation of the civil rights issues faced by those groups.
Pity certainly can be a weakness but it can also be used in propaganda to portray a just and rightous position against unjust bad people who torture puppies for fun.
>>1868336>real civil rights for those same groups, which would in many cases require drastic restructuring of capital, which liberals would never supportCare to give concrete examples?
>>1861957They get that? All I got it was a mix of "you're entitled" and "westoid"
>>1870034
>Autistic brains are very in-line with the mentality of capitalism. For one thing, autists don’t form social relationships for the sake of social relationships, they form social relationships with some sort of “end goal” in mind. Meaning, autistic brains are wired only to see other human beings as a means to an end, not as a means to themselves. That’s why autists will form shallow “bonds” with others on the basis of a shared interest only to discard those people after their special interest has changed. Do you not see the major problem with this? Why would autism be tolerated in a system where human togetherness is emphasized?
Wow, where did you find all of this info, did you pull it straight out from your fucking ass anon? You dumb fucking ass.
Crazy how you dehumanize an entire group that you don't even know then accuse us autistic people of forming "shallow bonds" "based on shared interest" "discard those people" "see other human beings as a means to an end" you ridiculous hypocrite and ignorant fool. Shut your dumb mouth, stupidass
>>1870034
>Why would autism be tolerated in a system where human togetherness is emphasized?
"Why would people with neurodevelopmental differences be tolerated in our society?"
You are literally a eugenicist and fascist, FUCK YOU.
>>1861942Simple: people are working more hours for less pay. They barely have the ability to take care of themselves, much less other people. Combine that with the effects of social media which has drastically altered how we relate to each other and you’ve got an entire culture attacking each other for not showing any care to anyone else.
>>1862388That argument is only really made retroactively: see the case of men and boys for the same exact thing
>>1862928Dude has never met a libertarian
>>1862332>I'd liken it a lot to the siege mentality.
>Every identity group (yes, including white Christian males) in post-modernity believes they are under siege, that there's some "man behind the curtain" looking to wipe them out. Some guy on the music board said Zionists see "antisemitism" everywhere and anti-Zionists see "Zionism" everywhere and I'd say this comrade is 100% correct.Everyone should read this article on the psychology of "siege cultures" (the article is from the 80s so obviously outdated, but still) and ask yourself if you see the same thing in society today.
I would love to see a Marxist analysis of siege cultures because I strongly agree siege thinking has become way too prevalent in society today.
>>1862857virtually anything pertaining to male physiology causes autism or some oher malady according to some medical paper.
>>1862407>>1862380Those entitled autists youre finding are a minority.
Most autists are trainwrecks.
But the real problem is that siciety sy oathises with autism the disease not the victims.
As a high functioning autist, I get fed up with cocksucking liberal sympathing types spouting out platitudes about how autism is a gift and it makes me special and more mature than other kids.
Those people are usually disgruntled boomers looking to get back at society for no longer being culturally alligned.
>>1870350Of what would you expect a particularly Marxist analysis to consist?
>>1870350>Everyone should read this article<At various historical periods White Southerners, Afrikaners and White Rhodesianswere acutely aware that their cultural beliefs in White supremacy were threatened by the dominant group (northerners in
the U.S.; English settlers and the metro-politan British Government in SouthAfrica; and the metropolitan British
Government in Rhodesia)
<These threatening actions included the abolition of slavery, subsequent wars (theAmericn Civil War and the two British-Boer Wars in South Africa, in all of which the sharply differing racial policies
of dominant and siege groups were a major factor), and other efforts by the metropolitan government (the federal government
in the United States; the metropolitan British government in South Africa and Rhodesia) to destroy siege-group racial
beliefs by incorporating (or threatening to incorporate) non-White groups especially into economic and political structures.
I don't think we can learn anything useful from reactionaries who faught wars to preserve slavery.
>>1870402It’s mostly about how the notion of being under siege created distinct cultural behaviours in said groups.
>>1870374How does siege culture derives from and ultimately benefit the economic processes in a given society. For example, we know that physical war helped sustain capitalism by generating a constant demand for armaments and allowing open suppression of organized labour in the name of national security; Siege Mentality probably do the same thing.
>>1871419Why does it need to? It's a social phenomenon. That "economic predestinationism" shit you're trying to flog right now is the EXACT EQUIVALENT to Thatcher's "There is no society". Self crit now.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1890/letters/90_09_21b.htm
>>1862362The whole trans thing is pretty interesting, because at the same time many of them live in poverty, but at the same time the US elite is trying to court them hard. Seems to be another instance of using vulnerable minorities as middle men.
>>1871551It's the relatively small size of the trans demo that makes it so valuable to the democrats.
>>1862362Trans people and their rights are being cynically used by the bourgeoisie. All the "progress" they've allegedly made is going to immediately evaporate when they're no longer useful as a cultural wedge to pretend-right over in congress.
>>1862846All of the things you said are eugenics which is why it shouldn't be regarded as a dirty word.
>>1862881Queer identites are useful for capital because they have less kids so the costs of workers is lower if the cost of labor does not include the costs of childbearing. Obv. this contradicts with capital's desire to increase labor supply.
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