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I know reddit is a cesspool, but reading through the posts made at r/teachers simultaneously broke my heart and made me rage. Doesn't help either that I have several friends who have been teachers for over 10 years, and they've told me horror stories about the state of American education.
For one thing, American schools are grossly underfunded. Every time states start running out of money the first cuts they make are to the schools (including state universities). But it's not just that. Teachers (my friends who teach included) are making the point that the parents of the children they teach no longer value their kids' education. These kids are reading far below grade level, can barely do basic math, know nothing about geography, history, or the natural sciences, and simply don't care. To top things off, most of these kids (we're talking gen alphas, so kids born after 2012) have loads of behavioural issues, lack any sense of discipline, are terribly rude to teachers, and are glued to their phones and iPads/Tablets. The parents expect the teachers to function more like babysitters than teachers and put very little to no effort into educating their children at home (for example, they don't read to their kids or help their kids learn math).
You may not see this as a big deal, but it will have implications down the road. American society and culture has become heavily anti-intellectual as it is and the downfall of the education system is only going to make things worse. Much worse.
>>1868607>>1868608Gentle parenting was a mistake.
Leftists may not like the concept of tough love, but it works.
>>1868612I'm inclined to agree but the schools still need fixing.
>>1868607Democratic schools where staff and students have equal votes on everything, let students sleep through bad lessons or skip them if they have something better to do, allow everyone to work together in exams rather than on their own in the individualist way, more practical and vocational lessons which can become the backbone of student's education if they want.
>>1868611It only works to reproduce Protestant mental illnesses, but it also works to end them. Seriously, punch people for being Euroid in public, and a lot of problems start getting solved.
>>1868615> let students sleep through bad lessons or skip them if they have something better to do, Only things I disagree with.
>>1868614For sure, it's just such a deep and profound issue I
not a burger wouldn't know where to start. The assault comes from all angles, be it neglectful parents, neglectful management, cultural issues.
It's not like I can just suggest the commune approach of 'just homeschool or join a small special school', that doesn't fix the problem at large.
>>1868619Yeah, that's one big problem I have with the way leftists approach shit. "Just leave the system and go to your own private island, man!" That doesn't work. Not to mention all the proletarian parents who are held prison by their shitty economic conditions and can't just homeschool or go somewhere better.
>>1868615>Democratic schools where staff and students have equal votes on everythingOP said 'real talk', not 'enjoyable fantasy'.
>allow everyone to work together in exams rather than on their own in the individualist wayFunnily enough, this was similar to how one of my courses at university worked - during the exam we would all have access to a shared document we collectively wrote online during the semester.
>>1868608>that second screenshotTrue horrors beyond your wildest imagination.
>>1868615>allow everyone to work together in exams rather than on their own in the individualist wayWouldn't this just make and encourage students to copy what the studious students do and end up not being able to exam the student individually to see if they learned
a lot of it originates from outside the classroom, with the completely broken social fabric and parents just sticking a tablet in front of their kids' faces as soon as they get home, they aren't learning social or emotional regulation skills and no amount of school funding is gonna make up for that
>>1868615Not to poopoo your entire proposal, but my sister went to a college that was organized very similar to what you're describing (Hampshire). She said she didn't learn shit and it didn't prepare her for the real world.
>>1868621>Yeah, that's one big problem I have with the way leftists approach shit.0) 'leftists' isn't a real word, say what you specifially meanMost socialists don't advocate utopian communes or solutions which only the rich or well-off (e.g. short working hours) can access.
>>1868621>>1868619Well, maybe your absolute determination to solve the problem by decree is latent aristocratic idealism or Stalinoid mysticism, neither of which have anything to do with Marx.
>>1868627Most "socialists" are just neolibs plus cunty emoting, so they're materially useless unless telling the ruling class to kts.
>>1868623>>1868625TBH I have no idea why parents are giving kids younger than 10 electronics. TV addiction among kids was a huge problem when I was growing up in the 90s and early 2000s and now the problem has only gotten worse.
There needs to be studies on how heavy screen time affects (and rewires) kids' brains because it certainly feels like there's something going on. Doesn't help either when the kids already have autism or ADHD and screentime makes "zoning out" so much worse.
>they aren't learning social or emotional regulation skills and no amount of school funding is gonna make up for thatHeavy agree on this one. I have to ask what cultural factors are causing parents to simply not care about their kids' growth and development.
>>1868628>Well, maybe your absolute determination to solve the problem by decreeWhy do you assume the worst of people?
>>1868629My mom watched TV while she was pregnant :(
>>1868631Because I'm usually right, especially when bourgeois social reproduction is in play.
>>1868607>The parents expect the teachers to function more like babysitters than teachers and put very little to no effort into educating their children at home (for example, they don't read to their kids or help their kids learn math).This is a harsh truth but why should the parents care if their kids are educated or not? What end goal does education serve? The so-called American Dream was killed forever in the 2008 crash and millennial parents know this. Millennials were raised by boomers at the peak of neoliberalism whereby they were raised as if they were mini adults. Millennials as a result have a ton of mental health issues because they could never live up to their parents' expectations. So now that they're having kids they're destined not to put their kids through the torture they were put through and instead of focusing on turning their kids into capitalist success stories they'd rather see their kids have happiness and enjoyment. That's why millennials gentle parent and put far less focus on discipline. Plus what end are these kids being educated for? They're going to be nothing but baristas at Starbucks anyway so who the fuck cares if they ace their math test or write five-page essays in the 3rd grade? Happiness is more important than knowledge.
>>1868622>OP said 'real talk', not 'enjoyable fantasy'.They exist and work well it is just they are only done in small scale because lack of funding or they are private schools.
>>1868624Yes but that's fine as long as they are working together. Copying work is good. Collectivist exam principles must come first. Exams will also only be 24 hour open book and you will know the questions beforehand.
>>1868626I went to one because the govermenint payed for it thanks to autism and it worked very well. It basically had all I described with Maoist education principles except the exams because they had to conform to national specs. It taught me public speaking and confidence around others and we even shunned someone for being the child of a landlord. Grades were passing but that's not what matters. Everyone should have that education not just petit-bourgeois, the mentall ill and problem students who are sent there.
>>1868629i think part of it is just parents working more and not having social support to fall back on. they don't have as much time to pay attention to what their kids are doing while at the same time not letting them do anything unsupervised (like going down to the park or playing with neighborhood kids), so keeping them glued to a screen is a safe way to keep them out of trouble
>be me
>2032
>tell lil faggots to read Marx
>they literally can't read
>literally less than 5% can read a full pamphlet
UH OH
>>1868634>So now that they're having kids they're destined not to put their kids through the torture they were put through and instead of focusing on turning their kids into capitalist success stories they'd rather see their kids have happiness and enjoyment. That's why millennials gentle parent and put far less focus on discipline. And that method clearly isn't working either. Laissez-faire (or neglectful) parenting keeps a kid utterly helpless and unable to solve their own problems when they get older.
>Plus what end are these kids being educated for? They're going to be nothing but baristas at Starbucks anyway so who the fuck cares if they ace their math test or write five-page essays in the 3rd grade? Happiness is more important than knowledge.You do realize leftists have always put heavy stress on education and knowledge for a reason, right? We DON'T want a stupid working-class because a stupid working-class can't do revolution or build the new society after the revolution. The Spanish anarchists taught illiterate peasants in the Catalan countryside for a fucking reason.
>>1868636I'd wager this too but even middle-class parents are giving screens to their kids. I've seen yuppie mothers at restaurants give iPads to three-year olds for instance.
>we have become babysitters
Yeah well people are working two jobs to survive and childcare is at record highs. No shit effectively free daycare is seen as the priority.
>>1868638>Laissez-faire (or neglectful) parentingPerhaps the European social model is wrong, and preparing children for slavery is in fact not going to make them more revolutionary? There was quite a bit of critique from the indigenous Americans, quite coherent and complex.
>utterly helpless and unable to solve their own problemsReally? Some kids learn to solve problems because they are guided through it.
Tell me honestly. Why should we be gentle with people who reproduce the bourgeois order? If we started beating adults for reproducing European culture, then it wouldn't reproduce, and a lot of problems would be solved.
FYI, here's the TikTok the reddit post is referencing.
https://www.tiktok.com/@fitpeanut/video/7364133893341056299This woman is beyond salty.
>>1868643>"many of these kids do not care, and they don't care because their parents don't care."Nailed it.
>>1868645They're refusing to reproduce the working class as a class. It's worth seeing for what it is and adjusting the program around it.
>>1868648So what are they raising their kids to be then? Because these kids certainly aren't going to wage revolution if they're dumb as rocks.
>>1868646Christian parenting culture should be destroyed, not reproduced.
>>1868648And by doing so throwing the entire burden on to proletarian teachers who have to suffer the consequences of the parents being idealist retards.
>>1868648This statement is so stupid I don't even know why I'm responding to it. If this is truly an "education strike" i.e. "I'm letting my kid flunk school and be a pain in the ass to hard-working teachers because I want my kid to shake off the dominant ideology in late stage capitalism" it's not working very well. Especially not when these kids are zombies glued to screens.
>>1868655
Not just tech but neglectful parents not giving a shit and forcing teachers to effectively take on the burden of raising the kids for them.
>>1868655
so true retard!
>>1868658
>I honestly can’t believe anons who use an IB would be susceptible to low/-hanging propaganda.
Have you seen /pol/ or /v/?
>>1868658
Glowies or think tankies who use an IB would be happy to push low-hanging propaganda and display simulated favorable responses, in the hope the targets will internalize or even repeat it.
>>1868658
Why would the CIA make up fake stories about public school teachers being at their breaking point because the state of education in America is so bad?
>>1868656>>1868653>>1868652>>1868651Jobs aren't sacred, you morons. Stop trying to hold up middle class society and start stripping the copper out of the walls.
>>1868664What's your alternative solution?
>>1868666
How do you know they're putting blame on minorities? The things the teachers are describing are very unique to middle-class white kids, like being addicted to iPads.
>>1868660
I didn't say use. It's basic IB knowledge.
>>1868667Like three other people have said this exact same thing: pessimism and knowing the ship is sinking is what's causing students to not care.
You don't need to know how to read in order to destroy the capitalist state.
>>1868673So why have revolutionaries always stressed education then? The Black Panthers taught DiaMat to people in the hood for a reason.
>>1868676The same revolutionaries tend to do pointless shit like bombing random places and making everyone else look bad. Look at the french revolution or the October revolution the masses who supported them werent very literate either.
>>1868678(same person) people tend to be smart enough to know their own material needs regardless of ones level of STEM like education. People will revolt if they are starving regardless of knowledge.
>>1868674
By ignoring these problems and blaming minorities right-wingers are guaranteeing America's failure. Honestly, why should we to stop them?
>>1868667I see a lot of overlap between the content of your screenshot and what was being discussed in the thread on pity (see:
https://leftypol.org/leftypol/res/1861942.html#1861942 ). People know things are only going to get worse from now on so they either throw in the towel or they fish for pity knowing they will never make it themselves. People are also a lot more inclined to identify as "disabled" or "neurodivergent" and insist they have "high support needs" even when they clearly don't, because they see it as a way of being able to opt out of capitalism and instead gain sympathy from others. What's the point of participating in capitalism if you're never going to have anywhere close to your parents' standard of living? Might as well get an autism diagnosis and use that to emotionally blackmail others into coddling me.
>>1868681>People are also a lot more inclined to identify as "disabled" or "neurodivergent" and insist they have "high support needs" even when they clearly don't, because they see it as a way of being able to opt out of capitalism and instead gain sympathy from others. What's the point of participating in capitalism if you're never going to have anywhere close to your parents' standard of living? Might as well get an autism diagnosis and use that to emotionally blackmail others into coddling me.My understanding is, having an autism or ADHD diagnosis means no one will expect you to succeed in capitalism since your brain "isn't properly wired" for capitalism or whatever. So, especially coming out of covid, getting diagnosed becomes fashionable since people see it as a get-out-of-jail-free card.
>>1868607You fix it with a socialist revolution. I don't get Americans love for utopian Reformation. You mfs don't have power to even get a food bank going and you want to "fix american education"? Are you fucking retarded?
>>1868690Go to /siberia/ and there's a thread verbatim to this one asking how to fix Detroit.
>>1868691I know, comrade… I know 😔
>>1868688That, and being neurodivergent gives you permission to be an eternal child. The infantilization of autistic people is huge. People think all of us (I'm on the spectrum as well) are nothing more than overgrown children incapable of being mature adults. But I guess that's what people want when they make an effort to get diagnosed.
>>1868704Jesus fuck that was painful.
>>1868696Funny thing is like almost a decade ago I remember people posting nascent studies about smartphone/tablet usage being heavily detrimental for children development being downvoted to hell by reddit nerds. Incidentally it was in at this time a big lobbying effort was coming from big tech to push this shit to kids and in the classrooms. Teaching is also becoming harder in Europe but in my country they have a blanket ban on phones in the classroom at least which apparently isn't the case in the US.
>>1868707I highly suspect electronic devises are rewiring kids' brains at a time when neuroplasticity is still working. I know it's not "PC" to say but I wonder if one reason why neurodivergent issues are so common now is largely due to the effects screens are having on our brains.
>>1868708Funny thing is there's been studies done showing a correlation between early childhood TV watching and autism, particularly level 3 autism. Parents don't realize how crucial those early years are to childhood development.
The parents are right, the kids only need their graduation papers.
>>1868608>nobody will hire their kidThe kid will not be hired anyway, getting a STEM PhD to work at Amazon logistics, thats their future, why are some idiots still thinking that people get hired because they have skill or show intelligence.
Again, the victims of the system are blamed, it’s always the actors not the system, if only they did this and that then suddenly everything would fix itself. How come those parents don’t have the time to educate their children? Why do they need to work multiple jobs to make ends meet? I didn’t expect anything else from Reddit, to be honest, but c’mon.
>>1868713I don't know if you can work at Amazon logistics without being literate…
>>1868713Working-class parents aren't the ones buying iPads for their kids. The problems being described on these reddit posts seem like middle class white problems not hood problems.
Ban all electronic devices and cell phones from being sold to people under 18.
Metal detectors installed in all classrooms and students banned from bringing any devices into the classroom with the penalty being risk of expulsion and mandatory community service at some retirement home. If they're already working can also fine them.
This would instantly solve 99% of the problems overnight. It's the internet turning kids into drooling retards who can only parrot back wikipedia to their teachers when asked to write something.
t. former student who graduated with honors and had an average 3.85 GPA in university
>>1868715In ancient Greece, slaves that showed intelligence and physical health were frequently killed, not everybody was able to be a houseslave.
Medieval serfs survived with a 40% literacy rate, why can’t porky redo it?
>>1868714Screens also fuck up children in indirect ways, for example like when parents are taking care of a baby while looking at the nightmare rectangle, the fact that they are fixated and don't do eye contact with the kid is detrimental.
>>1868717Everybody has a phone, especially the poorer regions, because they skip the PC and instantly go for touch screen electronics.
>>1868719Because jobs now require a lot more expertise. You can't even get hired at a low-wage mall job unless you have a BA.
>>1868722You sure it’s not the result of the job market being so oversaturated with degrees? You don’t need a bachelor to do a mall-job properly, but they still expect one, as the employer has a big surplus to pick from.
>>1868713>Again, the victims of the system are blamed, it’s always the actors not the system, if only they did this and that then suddenly everything would fix itself. It's ridiculous logic too, because it demonstrably refutes itself if you carry it to its own conclusions. Everyone goes out tomorrow, goes into debt to get student loans, busts their ass working a full time job for 8 years while they get a masters or a doctorate in some high demand STEM bullshit, wow, great job guys, now those non-unionized job fields are oversaturated and porky can pay you as low as he wants. Good luck even finding a job in your chosen field. You'll end up doing shit work anyway.
>>1868733What's the solution then?
>>1868733To be fair, college students are proving to be some of the most radical and class-conscious people in America right now. Did you miss the campus encampment protests?
>>1868736They have become class conscious as their future is so completely hopeless.
>>1868740That doesn't explain why they care about Palestine so much though. You're not seeing the outpouring of Palestine solidarity from illiterate people.
>>1868742And these protests have so far achieved nothing.
>>1868744Those kids protesting will grow up, they will remember the heavy handed treatment, the knee jerk reaction, the murder fantasies directed against them.
Gen Z & Alpha will rise up in the future.
>>1868744They have. They've gained international attention. The fact these protests started at elite universities like Columbia also says a lot.
>>1868736>To be fair, college students are proving to be some of the most radical and class-conscious people in America right now. I wasn't arguing against that at all. I was pointing out that if everyone went out and got a degree it would no longer correlate to higher pay. Because job fields would be oversaturated. I wasn't making fun of college students, I was pointing out how college is a false promise for economic prosperity, especially now that it's considered the bare minimum, rather than a unique thing that only a few people do.
>>1868744Revolution will break out in America when the 18 year olds who joined the armed forces for veterans' benefits are forced to fight China, Russia, and DPRK. That's when Russian soldiers finally turned on the tsar. When they're actually forced to die in a trench for a system that doesn't work.
>>1868749You were implying that college is worthless when I pointed out the campus is one of the best breeding grounds for radical though, as we're seeing right now with the Palestine solidarity encampments.
>>1868734Just wait until these dumbass kids learn about how early-diagnosed autistic/aspie kids were treated in the 90s and early 2000s.
>It's the parents fault!
While parenting indeed plays a large part in it, the fact remains that this is a massive cope on the school systems fundamental failure.
I dropped out sophomore year.
I simply could not take the system anymore, I had failed to make friends, and felt there was nothing there for me. I was right. Best decision of my life and I dedicated myself fully to myself, working on myself until university when I could at least study what I wanted to.
Firstly, the education system is simply fundamentally flawed.
We believe in this notion of a general education, when in reality most people will never need such a thing.
This is done as a method of forced unpaid labor on children that does not instill much of anything, often childrens passions are rejected early on and they have to fight to study them because of these pointless systems.
We need specialized education early on.
I will never in my life use anything beyond 5th grade math in my profession, maybe if you're a theoretical physicist and your job is to calculate whether or not colliding one God particle into a uranium atom will cause a nuclear explosion then it is, but for most people it isn't.
That's why most people aren't leaving high school to get white collar jobs, they're leaving to get a janitor or cook job.
We, even leftists, have this very bad tendency to look at things based off the past, we never question when something needs radical change based off efficiency rather than through minor improvements over time so I can't blame people for not often calling out that the way we school children at the basic level, is just plain wrong, and is setting them up for failure, and is frankly just abusive.
I also firmly believe in the school to prison pipeline.
Budgets are one thing, the outright hell that is public school is another.
The psychologically hostile architecture found in public schools inspires feelings of immediate dread through its spiritual emptiness.
Now this is a problem with brutalism and modernism in general, I am a firm believer this sort of stuff harms the soul, and it is much the reason why gen z now has fear of seeing empty furniture rooms, and buildings. The point is that at the fundamental level of the buildings of public education themselves this stuff is just planned out to be intentionally awful.
Now obviously parents have a lot to do with it, if you're focused on work then your child is doomed, if you just throw them in front of a phone to become the equivalent of consumers all their lives with no barrier, and especially if you cripple them mentally and physically with birthing them at 37 and not 27 then you ensure that they're going to be a burden on everyone.
However if you as a teacher are going to be asking for "respect" you will not earn it by having parents beat their kids, and then threatening to beat them with a ruler if they speak up in class too loudly. The only reason children become distracted in class at all is because they have no reason to care.
I skipped 9th grade math class for 60% of the year because I had no interest in it what so ever.
The fact remains that this system is fundamentally broken because it is expectant on the ages of which you have the least self restraint, or willingness to eat shit unless you're beaten into submission, and if you don't want them to be unfocused and unwilling to be invested, you cannot fix that without making them invested.
No amount of funding will fix that.
We don't all need to know anything about geography, history, or the natural sciences outside of hobbies because most of us are not working as geologists, historians, or programmers.
Do away with this period, it simply does not work, remove the common knowledge curriculum that has simply never worked, and replace it with specialized learning from day one.
The only people calling for the alternatives, return to form, and salvation of the system as others have pointed out in the thread are those who are reactionaries that think whipping kids into shape will fix things, it won't. Humanity cannot be beaten into doing things they don't like, and until we realize that no one can move on.
>>1868611>>1868629>gentle parenting>I have no idea why parents are giving kids younger than 10 electronicsIt's just capitalism. People's jobs don't leave them enough time and energy to actually be present in their kids' lives.
>>1868800>needs radical change based off efficiencyThe correct answer is to put all the adminstrators and managers to the wall.
>>1868745>Those kids protesting will grow up, they will remember the heavy handed treatment, the knee jerk reaction, the murder fantasies directed against them. Yeah just like the geriatrics who currently fill our government did with regards to the 60s antiwar protests. Get a grip. I think the protests are a net good because a few have achieved divestment, but it's delusional to think the kids won't fall in line with liberalism once they're out in the real world.
>>1868960>moralistic cope is more important than material conditionsReddit
All I have to say is that I'm glad I chose not to have kids or marry in this decaying late-stage capitalist hellhole. Everything is only going to get worse and worse and it would be generations if not centuries before anything gets better.
All I have to say is that I'm glad I chose not to have kids or marry in this decaying late-stage capitalist hellhole. Everything is only going to get worse and worse and it would be generations if not centuries before anything gets better.
>>1868725modern society is more complicated than feudal society, even being a cashier requires basic math and literacy skills. There is an oversaturation of degrees thats not the sme as an oversaturation of skills, middle skill labor jobs like trades are undersaturated.
American schools exist to prepare kids for prison, not educate them.
>fix education
You are still thinking within the established parameters. The entire institution should be abolished. No more compulsory "schooling"
>>1868611Madone why doesn't anyone actually read on this shit? parenting was cracked a long time ago, you basically have to parent kids in what is called "authoritative parenting", which ISN'T the same as "authoritarian".
All other forms of parenting have been proven to suck ass (permissive, authoritarian and uninvolved) and to create terrible consequences for the kid in the long run. You can look this shit up (4 parenting styles)
>>1868607You know the worst, most blackpilling part? When this inevitably yields consequences down the line, psychologists will attribute all of this to genetics/blame innate cognition.
>>1869070>pop self-help psychology is authoritative as long as it gives me a permission slip to torture my child into believing my liesMaybe it would be better to find ways of preventing manners culture from being able to reproduce.
>>1868813this
>>1868960the geriatrics in our government weren't actually anti-war during the vietnam era. they were pro war or ambivalent. that's why they were allowed into positions of power in the first place. you might be able to find a couple of exceptions to the rule but it wasn't the norm by any stretch of the imagination. While there is some truth to the idea that the radlib baby boomers "fell into line and became conservative at 30", it's mostly that the "good ones" died young, or went to jail, or whatever, and the ones who survived, survived because they were able to work within the existing cruel system. Anyways, the whims of individuals is entirely superstructural and we should be looking at the base.
>>1869006Medieval peasants were able to do basic math and literacy, do you think they sold their wares just like that?
>>1868607No one values intellect anymore. Millennials would rather raise kids to be compassionate than smart.
>>1868960Hippies were a small minority, everybody else was a proto-yuppie. They all claim to be have been hippies once, just like every single Frenchman in Paris claimed to have been with the Resistance when the city was liberated.
>>1869061Yeah except for the fact we still need doctors, scientists, engineers, etc.
>>1869086Superstructure informs and often determines (Engels' words, not mine) the form in which the economic necessity will appear, and as such what we can do with it in revolution. "Otherwise the application of the theory to any period of history would be easier than the solution of any simple equation."
Only counter-revolutionaries stare at the base all the time, especially when considering social phenomena.
Repealing No Child Left Behind and Common Core would be a good start.
>>1869127We don’t. The “healthcare” system in America is all smoke and mirrors. Most “doctors” do nothing but push pills.
>>1869186The EHR system is actually your doctor now. The clinician just fights it on your behalf.
teachers are cops. for every 1 teacher that actually cared about the kids and their education there were 10 losers who just wanted to experience the power trip of telling kids what to do
>b-but the bad kids
Yeah the bad kids sucked and were disruptive/annoying but lets not act like that makes teachers saints. by that logic cops are good because sovereign citizen libertarians are annoying. The only cool teachers are college professors. In general teachers are just karens and male losers who are, as nick mullen put it, adult dumb-asses.
>>1869195>getting your opinions from tvYou middle-class people are worse than useless
>>1869200bro I don't know what privileged private school your yuppie parents sent you to but most american schools are just prisons run by people that resemble prison wardens more than educators. Get your head out of your ass.
>>1869205Because they were set up that way to keep poor kids poor. Education is necessary and every credible leftist agrees.
>>1869205I didn't mean to imply your opinions were wrong, only that hanging price tags on everything and everybody is teenage bourgeois behavior. I suggest you take some time to investigate just how deeply commercial ideology has pervaded your entire mode of social production.
In any case, if I were you I would stop watching television and charismatic leaders. As an alternative, I suggest the
Grundrisse, Marx's proudest work. Its discussion of the two types of primitive communism is only a few pages long but very relevant to our discussion today, which you will see. You may find that what you see on TV has nothing to do with Marx.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/download/pdf/grundrisse.pdf
>>1869212"Education" is just ideological car washing, it's useful for the adults to work or take care of the house. It's not even good for socializing children.
>>1869205>experience the power trip of telling kids what to doWhat? Is it a power trip to tell a student to do homework and be quiet when taking a test? Teachers are also proles and comparing them to cops is ridiculous. By the way schools have a cop in the building.
>American schools are grossly underfundedthe segregated ones with black and brown kids, Future Slave Caste Workers under settler colonialist apartheid
>society and culture has become heavily anti-intellectual PMC radlib can't talk about material conditions of capitalism so they blame parents, fuck off OP
> lack any sense of discipline, are terribly rude to teachersare teachers educating young people dialectically? No, not at all, they just lecture and maybe put on some dogshit Hank Green youtube video. Dialectical teaching would require kids to be able to ask questions, not just passively consuming lecture content. They would be able to engage in a two sided line of inquiry where both parties are learning dialectically from each other, not standardized testing nonsense.
>>1868608>they want their kids to have a safe spacePMC: "kids are so stupid for caring more about not getting stabbed by gangsters than about medieval French poetry"
>no six year old needs to know what Skibidi Toilet isA story about endless war and how the spectacle of society exists as counter-revolutionary forces that reinstate the bourgeois capitalist status quo? That has nothing to do with the Biden regime's banning of TikTok and their genocide in Palestine!
>They cannot sit, they are never in the momentthe soulless class of Kamala Harris want you to be a quiet little slave who passively consumes their lectures without asking any questions. Moving around is only for white settler children, not their future slave caste.
>>1868611>Leftists may not like the concept of tough love, but it works.degen reactionary NPC incapable of saying the word 'capitalism'. You should seriously consider suicide, sorry leftoids but tough love works! 🥰😍😻
>>1869216> Is it a power trip to tell a student to do homework and be quiet when taking a test?authorities who control youth are famously not full of groomers and sexual predators like Jeffrey Epstein:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/12/nyregion/jeffrey-epstein-dalton-teacher.html> Teachers are also proles and comparing them to cops is ridiculous<The school-to-prison pipeline refers to practices and policies that disproportionately place students of color into the criminal justice system. Such a mystery why the nazi forum of leftypol has never heard of the 'school to prison pipeline'! I guess these white settlers have never spoken to a person who lives ten minutes away in the segregated de facto apartheid part of their towns?
https://soeonline.american.edu/blog/school-to-prison-pipeline/
>>1869219Lot of bold statements here not supported by evidence.
>>1869219>teachers are authoritarians who abuse kids>teachers don't allow students to ask questions>teachers are grooming the kids>teachers are indoctrinating the kids to be LGBT>teachers are responsible for kids going to jail and ending up in the school prison pipeline>teachers are fully responsible for curriculum and not the state somehow?Did Mrs.Smith give you detention or something? You have a serious hate boner for teachers
>>1869216I really don't think you understand just how abusive teachers can get. Its like saying "I don't understand why people think cops are so bad they just write tickets and bust drug dealers". You have an idealized family sitcom understanding of the world.
>>1869227>You have an idealized family sitcom understanding of the world.I went to school dog teachers can't do shit to you unlike a cop who has legal right to fuck you up.Comparing them to cops is not thinking dialectical at all.
>>1869227You're not totally wrong, in France a hundred years ago the teachers were called the black hussars of the republic. However today schools tend to be run by managers aiming to please the parents who often turn out to be entitled idiots, all this at the expanse of the teachers, so you often end up with a situation where teachers can't use necessary authority to enforce discipline without fallback.
>>1869234Alright, let me regal you with a true story that I witnessed. There was a kid in high school study hall. He had IBS but the teacher in charge of study hall, some power tripping fat southern white cunt, was not understanding in the least and thought he was just making up excuses to go to the bathroom to look at his phone. One day he shat himself and the teacher cussed him out and called him a retard to his face. He broke down crying and reported the incident to the principal and his parents? Guess what happened? Fucking nothing because the fat southern hick lady was a nepo hire who was blood related to one of the school board members. And it wasn't just this kid she was mean to: she was a cunt to everyone except the other staff members.
there was also a story of a psycho who taught PE who would beat the mildly autistic kid and didn't get fired until another kid recorded it and sent it to the police and local media.
And also I graduated Valedictorian. So tell me again about how its because I didn't want to do homework, cocksucker.
>>1868607abolish schools, or slash their structure to ribbons: you do reading and writing, the two essentials, and then the remainder of your time is
yours. don't care about history? great! don't study it! love art? great, spend
all day drawing!
now you might chide me here: but anon! the purpose of education is to round people out, to give them a broader view, to introduce them to new things, etc, etc… but that's a nonsense. the history education a child recieves at the average school is next to worthless, notable more for what's omitted than for what's included. music and art classes are a farce where if you're lucky teachers will indulge those with pre-existing skills they've developed independently and ignore the rest. computing classes are a perfunctory introduction to the microsoft products you'll use if you're lucky enough to score an office job, maybe with some token boring-as-hell programming on the side. it's a horrible, horrible model. imagine if instead you just put the teacher there as a knowledgeable person people could go to for help with their personal projects, or to expand on a topic of interest, rather than a top down instructor attempting to churn out education like it was canned fruit?
i think that
everybody should be a well-rounded generalist, but the current education system does the opposite of this: by attempting to force a shit version of subjects on people who don't care, almost inevitably in the pursuit of some nonsense metrics (grading art! grading!! art!!!) it simply puts people off: those who fail at (or are bored to tears by) school classes in these subjects conclude that it's
not for them, they're disheartened and discarded, encouraged to think: ah, my role is not to create, it's to follow orders.
fuck off!i'm even skeptical of the merits of literacy and numeracy education. in my case my parents taught me and i regressed when i went to school. my english language skills were terrible until i started posting online. to that one guy: yeah go on point out that i'm too lazy to capitalize, you middle-school-english-teacher wannabe. you little hitler.>>1868608i'm inclined to regard the first as a good thing: if everyone stops caring about academics the stupid qualification-inflation arms race falls to pieces. the objective primary purpose of contemporary mass education
is as a daycare so parents can toil all day. if it's going to be a daycare, make it a fun and stimulating one rather than something that - if applied to any other human output - would be regarded as some kind of insane central planner's fantasy.
>>1869256>you do reading and writingwhat about basic math anon? do you really want innumerate students?
>>1869260deleted it in an editing error, if you look at the spoiler there's a demonstration i was going for "reading/writing and math".
(i'd say most students are already churned out nearly innumerate, but let's keep it around just in case.)
>>1869252>the south It sounds like you went to school in the rural south if you are talking about nepo hires and the fact that the parents got no consideration due to the smallness of the area. That doesnt happen in urban areas in the south and corporal punishment doesn't happen in metropolitan areas. I think it is fair to say you should consider how other people experienced education across this country than the rural southern town you grew up in. That administrator would've lost their job if that was done outside a rural school district.
>didn't get fired until another kid recorded it and sent it to the police and local media.That's most cases because they can't deny it and sweep it under the rug like a lot of rural schools do.
>So tell me again about how its because I didn't want to do homework, cocksucker.Well you grew up in rural Dixie and sounds like your school was owned by the local descendent of a plantation owner.
>>1869216>Is it a power trip to tell a student to do homework Yes. Homework is retarded: if it works as an "educational" tool all it actually achieves is to increase the education-gap between rich and poor, if it doesn't it's simply setting you up for the expectation that your time is not your own.
Is it any surprise that in fordist society (i.e. the recent-ish past) the kids most likely to have to take their office reports home with them to continue working on were the ones who do their homework, while the ones who'd wind up in the factory were the most likely to skip it? Is that an accident?
If not doing homework increases the gap between the rich and the poor, the solution is to abolish homework, not to harass the kids who didn't do it so that they've got an antagonistic relationship to the teacher inside the classroom, compounding the educational disadvantage further. (Yeah, kids are really going to develop a trusting relationship with the cunt who
actually got angry that they didn't want to waste their precious free time on make-work.)
>>1869280>he thinks north-eastern catholic school aren't equally if not more abusive. lel
>>1869310It's not a contest. Every entrant loses.
>>1869256Imagine being a communist and thinking studying history is worthless.
If anything, every child in a communist state should be required to have in-depth schooling of philosophy, economics, psychology, and history.
>>1870025studying history is great, the problem is that doing so in the context of the current school structure actively
discourages it, it sucks out all of the life and reduces it to a series of facts to memorize for a test. if someone thinks history is boring, you are not going to change their mind by making them sit and pretend to listen while you drone on. you are going to
actively discourage them from independent study of the relevant topics, you are going to drive people away rather than bring them in. historical questions are the kind of thing people gravitate to naturally: why is this the way it is? how did this come to be? encourage them to follow those threads, cultivate interest and independent study: don't browbeat them into learning mostly outdated fragments of trivia in a pop-culture understanding of WW2.
i cannot emphasize this enough: the problem is not with subjects, it is with schooling. the school as presently structured is a
threat to subject matter knowledge.
>>1870035>why is this the way it is? how did this come to be?The point, however, is to change it.
>>1870035Not everything has to be as poignant and interesting as an AI produced youtube short. Some basic stuff you have to learn to get to the interesting things is inherently boring for a lot of students and that's okay as long as they can keep at it. Your idea is all well and good but IRL can see how methods like Montessori which try to make learning not boring fail at delivering quality education, making exiting students who want to pursue higher knowledge struggle a lot or simply unable to do it.
>>1870040>quality educationDefine this. Prison-school is quite poor at conveying the skills or the need to extend and expand one's understanding of the world they operate in. The incuriosity is especially pronounced in debate tards.
>pursue higher knowledge>higherI'm pretty sure you meant to say "petit-bourgeois class formation" here, and I'm sorry hazoids but we're destroying everything you can use to distinguish yourselves.
>>1870037a great little quip, but in the context of the current school structure that is very much not
why you are being ""taught"" history. the point is to deliver measurable outputs of "education" and to develop your ability to conform to arbitrary, hierarchical instruction, or otherwise to mark you as someone unfit for such tasks. "the point, however, is to do what you're told!"
>>1870040not everything has to be interesting, the important thing is that the boring stuff should be voluntary. how much boring history have you learned in pursuit of some interesting thread? how many skills have you self-taught, pushing through the dull to get to the good part? people can be and should be encouraged and assisted to push through the boring bit, they cannot generally speaking be forced to take an interest or to learn.
would you come away any better off if, right now, i locked you in a room for 8 hours and made you copy down everything i say about the history of b3ta.com - much of it incorrect, as I'm only one lesson ahead of you - without any ability to question or to focus in on areas of interest to you, without being able to go to the bathroom without my consent, with your task turning to answering inane questions on a sheet of paper when i'm bored of talking, with any sign of slacking called out… or would you accept that this is an insane way to attempt to convey any kind of knowledge or instruction whatsoever? that the two primary purposes served here are to keep you in one place for 8 hours and to develop an institutionalized relationship to top-down command.
>>1870047I actually went trough a lot of involuntary boring stuff to be able to read, write, understand the world and if you jag up your memory you will also discover that it is the same for you. If you have a kid someday you might discover that he may not want to voluntary learn the alphabet or the multiplication tables, and that he may want to watch TV or youtube slop all day. I hope you make the right choice.
>>1870040>as poignant and interesting as an AI produced youtube shortridiculous strawman. Studying history is definitely not really what is mostly happening to children in history class, which is a shame because studying history can be fascinating. Its largely national mythos, and the few big wars, event, periods linked to it.
>>1870081>went trough a lot of involuntary boring stuff to be able to read, write, I didnt. Mostly cause there was a culture of book reading in the family and I had started on my own cause I wanted to read more. Writing is a bit harder but being able to write is neat.
>understand the world pretty much 90% voluntary and outside of school
>if you jag up your memory you will also discover that it is the same for you. nah not really, I cant really think of that much I was forced to sit and endure that I can remember today and think is useful for my life, although tbf I was a good student who had an easy time and liked learning so what I had to literally endure was limited
>the multiplication tablesI never even bothered to entirely learn those, barely needed after 6, and I was a good student
>he may want to watch TV or youtube slop all daymore children are abandoned to those than actually want them
all of this not to say children dont need discipline or can just be left to do whatever they want, of course learning basic calculus, writing or history is useful even if potentially boring.
But having an education where the primary concern isnt submissiveness to authority, preparing good proles, freeing parent for work, reproducing social standing and learning national mythos would be a good start. Something with less focus on competition and hierarchy and more cooperation, initiative and work methodology.
The staggering lack of scientific methodology usage in the education system and the lack of emphasis on pedagogy in teacher education and work tell a lot about the actual objectives.
PS note that im not american but I guess education must be mostly similar in western countries
and holy shit does the OP framing seems like a reactionary having a classic moral panic attack about the next generation
Make it more like the Soviet school system.
>>1868629>>1869070Ironically, autistic kids don’t do well at all in what would be considered “anarchist parenting” environments. Autistic kids crave authority and structure and hate spontaneity and structurelessness. When autistic kids have gentle parents they see their parents as unreliable and start becoming little authoritarians themselves. Why do you think so many violent incels have hippie parents?
For the record I’m autistic as well so please don’t judge.
>>1875200>Why do you think so many violent incels have hippie parents?Because of the capitalism outside of the home.
Violent parents get the rope, and we let the kids do it.
>>1875200You don't need to be an authoritarian parent to provide structure to an autistic child. Autistic people generally want structure. It's not that hard to give them structure and teach them how to create it.
>>1875209Autistic kids do better with authoritarian parents than gentle parents. Not giving an autistic kid form authority destroys us and leaves us helpless. Since anarchists are obsessed with the notion of structure and order as “oppressive” and champion spontaneity instead how do they reconcile their bullsit with embracing autism?
>>1875219No they don't. They repeat themselves like the abused permanent children they are.
>destroys us and leaves us helplessYou need to work out your own kinks in your own bedroom, right-deviationist.
>>1869219why does every thread about education have some retarded 10th grader lashing out over their teacher not letting them watch tiktok on their phone during class or whatever
>>1868611Alot of parents do tough oive and we still have delinquents
>>1875482You tell us, expert.
>>1875219structure and authoritarianism are not one and the same. imagine, dear autist, a train simulator. even in freeplay mode, the track provides you with structure, but you may proceed along it as you please. in other modes, however, authority is introduced: you will have a narrow acceptable block of allocated time in which to pass through each section of track, arrive at each station, etc.
structure is essential, authoritarianism is often harmful. if you just want to learn the cab controls, for example, being bounced out of the simulator for a late arrival adds frustration for no gain.
>>1875212what i find interesting about this is that "authoritative parenting" style is basically how i imagine an imageboard should be run, if perhaps with some slightly fuzzier rules.
(most are actually run by a mixture of neglectful and authoritarian methods masquerading as permissiveness.)''
>>1875482because school is shit and many teachers are bad at getting the behaviors they want.
something i always resented in teachers is that they wouldn't ever try to
level with me: if i wasn't - say - doing homework, and a teacher had said to me "look, you can't keep doing this because
i might get into trouble" i would've immediately accepted this as a valid reason to do it - to help someone else out - but a teacher would never do this, would always go:
"because i say so",
"because it's the rules",
"because everybody else does". well, sorry, that's a set of reasons so dumb, so frankly
insulting that even a 10 year old knows to ignore it…
yeah, yeah, obviously some kids were just cunts you couldn't reason with, but politeness dictates you try.
>>1868607I remmeber reading doomsday posts like these about Millennials amd Zoomers ten to fifteen years ago.
I dont deny theres a problem in education but I feel alot of these problems are exaggerated.
We still have young people talking about science amd history points.
>>1868718>Kids dont deserve electronics jist because of few kids abusing it.>Adults abusing anything should nevr result in regulation>>1868637They said the same about Millennials amd Zoomers
>>1868629Electronics arent the problem. The real problem is th smothering zero-tolerance/zero free-range play.
People seem to think childhood is universal across ge erations. That its electronics thats ruining the youth.
Its not
>>1875219>>1875200Yea, people who advocate for harsher restrictions on childrens livelihood are often failed adults themselves
>>1870081This isnt really true.
Kids do have intellectual desores but we smother them so much and bar them any worldly exposure.
>let's fix the USA
'no'
>>1868722>>1869006trades are undersaturated because schoolteachers are paid to shill for college
step 1: less shootings
step 2: less drugs
Step 0: less administration/management
step -1: less americans
>>1868639>>1868625why do people blame electronics for youth problems?
Its not the electronics. Its the social exemptory laws imposed onto youth.
If kids were allowed free range play and allowed to drop out and pursue trade programs then it would be fine.
>>1870952>PS note that im not american but I guess education must be mostly similar in western countriesand holy shit does the OP framing seems like a reactionary having a classic moral panic attack about the next generation
Theyve been making articles like these since the 1950s.
People always act like the current era of kids are Cain and Abel.
>>1875562why do you blame youth for electronics problems?
>>1875566I dont.
Adults do.
Functional illiteracy instead of dysfunctional literacy with summers spent learning trade skills to graduate. On a less serious note, 90 percent of the problems with American education outside of the usual suspects, start with dominionist christianity's infiltration into every strata of life.
Ive always heard about how kis nowadays are getting dumber yet I always see amd hear kids still speaking normally and tropping trivia facts.
I also notice most adults whenever I talk to them.about academic subjects they seem to get anmoyed and or stumped.
>>1870081I genuinely can't think of anything that i learned which was both involuntary and useful. if something was useful and involuntary, generally, i wouldn't learn it. (sux2bu, second languages.)
the closest i can get is stuff i wish i could've skipped but which i learned voluntarily. like, i didn't enjoy learning CSS, i still don't particularly like CSS, but it was of my own free will that i sat down and suffered through it. if we'd done webdev in school i can all but guarantee i wouldn't touch it with a bargepole because it'd be "that pointless shit they tried to force on me" rather than "this annoying tool that can, nevertheless, do something i'd like to try."
>>1875550Kids get constant dopamine hits from learning new things. They are driven to learn.
AFAIK montressori type education has been around long enough and popular enough that we can see the results. Does it work?
>>1875569Wrong. Have the first semster be book studoes and the second semester be trades.
Starting in the sixth grade, all classes shoukd be vocational.
Adults treat academics asthe moralising agent of youth yet most young people whom are top of their grade are stuck in dead end jobs.
They also seem to have no worldliness.
>>1875578Most educational curriculum is the same old cliche stuff taught from elememtary school.
Like I cannot tell you how many times I reread the same course of world history from sixth to tenth grade.
I learned more about history on my own time
>>1868611it is unsustainable as it creates resentment
>>1875584History is the origin myth of a literary tradition. Its mandatory teaching reproduces the suite of metaphors, narratives, and names developed in it as a society-wide commonplace. The origin myth of the current order, once internalized, inspires the (re)production of that order and of its myth.
Even the format of the world history (e.g. "one damn thing after another", whig narratives, or hismat) conditions the student to the particular sense and value of time idealized in that world, and guides their application and extension of that knowledge. "Why is this important?" "Because we said so", "Because it leads to us", or "So that you can steer it" (Theses on Feuerbach #11 in Internet Rule #40).
The whole master narrative of American education is apt for the system of capitalist properties and their allocations, useless for generally developing social human beings and autonomous-social capacities.
>>1869170this.
I think the real problem with modern ducation is the lack of moral individuality granted to kids.
Kids are seen as all the same.
Theyre not allowed to be seen as anything else but an age number.
Theyre expected to like and do the same things as everyone else as their peers.
Kids arent allowed to have differing skillsets.
>>1875752And heaven forfend they should develop a friendly relationship with an adult down the block, lest all manner of parental private property feeling explode.
The teachers should quit and work in higher paying jobs. Let market forces fix the education system.
>>1875760this. The only reason why America even cared about education in the first place was because of World War 2 and the Space Race.
Before and after that, they never cared.
People think education is an automatic gold ticket to the good life.
They think higher education is like the movies amd TV with hot prime age adults with cosmopolitan quirks and everybody has nice cars amd private practice offices.
>>1868649Why do people think of children only as students?
Alot of out historic revolts had non-academic folks helping.
Also, acadwmic skills dont mean overall intelligence.
>>1868608The elementary post about kids not being potty trained is kinda exaggerated. And the Skibidi Toilet hate again?
Cmon Skibidi Toilet isnt a problem.
Surreal animations arent the problem.
>>1868608Also little kids are naturally restless. Fprcing kids to sit and do rug time is gonna make miserable.
Teahers need to male little kids go outside more.
>>1868634I agree with you except the happiness part.
The problem isthat society reduxes modern youth to be students.
People seemto treat academic prowessastheseeds ofthe future.
Yet, time amd time again, we see that hu dreds of hours studying to ace math and history tests and getting a highGPA usuallymeans you dont know shit about cooking or cleaning or basic repair.
Most of our spexies history has been tech ical skills. Idk why modern adults wanna forsakethis knowledge.They wanna make academic skillsthe new livelihood of society.
We hve so many intelligemt kids whom are working McDonalds and dont know how to talk to the opposiye sex.
Adults only love them becauethey never "follow.the crowd".
But the same.adults are too.self.abosrbed in their generational zeitgeist and dominion over the youth.
>>1875842NTA but treating children like idiotic pure angles that can't be helped is anti social. Children should have a holistic education and environment to grow up in. This is irrelevant now, because we don't have a communist society and the world is fucked up and people are fucked up, plus everyone in the US is an antisocial reactionary schizo.
>>1869127create proper incentives for certain people to persue those fields
thats it instead of trying to make everyone a scientist and doctor let the ones who are genuine in that field try and study and no matter how long it takes let them finish
sure some might pass year 1 and others after 10 and 15 but its still a healthier system than everyone being forced into some weird hogwars sorting hat bullshit
>>1869219this is the only person on /leftypol/ who reads holy shit
>>1868607in the soviet union if you ever wanted to change what profession you had (because of age or because you found something more interesting or because you moved somewhere and you needed a new job) you could apply to schooling they would train you upto a basic efficent level and then it was upto you to develop your craft
i think the same should be done in the case of education
>>1875925>>1875932the real problem is the lack of vocational classes and playtime in schools. Recess time hasbeen reduced so fidgeting and restlessness is now wrongfully labelled as ADHD/ADD.
>>1868638>And that method clearly isn't working either. Laissez-faire (or neglectful) parenting keeps a kid utterly helpless and unable to solve their own problems when they get older.Ironically, most paremts were laissez faire towards children before the 1980s.
Most kids were expected to raise themselves after age eight.
>>1868667This.
The moral assignment pushed onto yputh is idealism.
Even in midst of crisis, adults assume kids are supposed to be naive and optimistic.
Innocence is just a moral copout exploited by adults to avoid responsibility
>>1876043Therapy, you need it
>>1876058Yea I need it because youre stalking me like a rabid dog.
>>1876059As long as you are aware you are in serious need of it.
>>1876060Nta but kys hazbot
>>1876069I'm a jewish Jihadist tyvm
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