The far left in France is and always has been retarded. Even in Marx's day, they were a bunch of imbeciles led by midwits like Proudhon or psychos like Blanqui. Nobody should take them seriously. Even their best intellectuals ended up quitting the left entirely. As they say in Africa, nothing good comes from France.
>>1880096Althusser was not that bad tho
>>1880106he did kill his wife though?
>>1880090Not strong and it won't be. Communism is dying out everywhere.
>>1880106Althusser was a batshit crazy schizophrenic. Foucault, Baudrillard, Deleuze etc. are all basically post-left and its easy to see why. Even fucking Satre abandoned the French left. Just look at the French Marxists and French Maoists. Those people were fucking insane. The 68 movement leftists won't STFU about was literally a bunch of students protesting for the right to visit the girls dorms and have sex and when they got that right they went back home to fuck. That's not a revolutionary movement.
French revolutionism gave birth to the left and its also the cancer that's eating it up from the inside too. The French revolution was a mistake and we need to stop fucking romanticizing it.
>>1880113Althusser was basically just a western Maoist. Really after a short hegelian phase in the 50s, his whole project was rationalizing Mao's though with Marxism.
>>1880109>>1880113>>1880116yeah he killed his wife when he was old and schizo as fuck, what gives? doesn't invalidate his theoretical work
almost like denying Marx because he basically lived on Engel's money
>>1880090Since we don't have a /fra/ general board, this could be the one, where people talk french and shit talk their country left parties and stuff.
>>1880122Althusser's theories are now mostly irrelevant anyway. Foucault practically replaced him.
>>1880122Althusser's theories are now mostly irrelevant anyway. Foucault practically replaced him.
>>1880116>That's not a revolutionary movement. Could have been if the communist party weren't opportunist cowards and the Kremlin's little bitches, they joined late when the movement was already blossoming into a general strike and they refused to take power when they could.
Have to return to tradition.
>>1880116>The French Revolution was a mistake>The revolution's model that made possible: the Haitian, Soviet, Chinese, and Cambodian revolution was a mistake. Surprised your Napoleonic hands are large enough to use a keyboard.
>Is being a communist socially acceptable there?
I mean, kind of, it depends. At least calling yourself a Communist or openly identifying as one isn't illegal in the sense it is in Germany or the US, so you have to play some pretend game. The PCF is still pretty relevant nationally and even more at the local level despite selling-out a few times or slowly bleeding out. You have hundreds of 'Communist' mayors all over France, especially in the Banlieues of big urban centers.
>>1880144so you don't have to play pretend games'
>>1880140It never would have. Why did the Kremlin not support it? A revolution in France, which would have created a left government that was probably anti-Soviet, would still have destabilized NATO's dominance of Western Europe and forever removed France from ever playing a role in NATO and the EU. It was in the Kremlin's interest to support it or allow it to go ahead. So why did they not? Because the CPSU's foreign relations people knew that there was no real chance of a revolution there at all and sponsoring it or giving it a little push would have been a waste of money.
Why? Firstly, there was a lack of common leadership or networks across social groups that could effectively organize and mobilize people towards a revolution. Second, there were always tensions between the students and the workers' unions. Students just wanted to get laid while workers wanted better conditions. The students with their retarded sex obsessed avant-garde ideology decided the workers were retarded and they needed to lecture and preach the virtues of anal group sex to those dumb blue collar savages. Meanwhile, the workers simply wanted better conditions and pay and hated the students arrogant and foolish beliefs. It was clear that the protest movement was prone to collapse. Third, the French authorities had a strong autocratic state and a strong military that were in perfect position to coup or contain a revolution if it were to take place. 68 was never going to succeed and it wasn't even revolutionary because all the students cared about was having sex. That's a very easy demand to satisfy. Much easier than improving working conditions.
>>1880142Napoleon was as much a product of the French revolution as Robespierre. And yes the French revolution's model was a mistake. You know why? Because leftoids and even Iranian Islamists took the French revolution as a model. They assumed that since the French did X, Y and Z then they also had to do it even if it was unnecessary. There were many purges in China, Russia, Iran etc. which were entirely unnecessary but the idea was "ah well this is how all revolutions are just look at France." This kind of schizo thinking is why Zhou Enlai was famously ambiguous about the French revolution. The whole reason the Soviet Union and China became autocratic guided democracy (aka dictatorships) with mass purges was because France did it and therefore we have to do it. It was totally insane and false and ultimately destroyed the USSR and nearly did the same thing to China.
Leftists have a really poor understanding of what the French revolution actually was. If the Jacobins were around today we'd call them fascists because that's closer to what they truly were.
The left will do much better if we just abandon this obsessive French revolution larping and get rid of the French model of revolution for a more sane approach to revolution founded on a better strategy and empirical observations of what works and doesn't work. Part of the left's backwardness is because they are just like those dumb French generals at the beginning of WW1 who had their soldiers dress up in Napoleonic uniforms and goose step across no man's land, not realizing machine guns, heavy artillery, and barbed wire exist. We need to stop this obsessive copying of the French.
Another glowanon trying to dictate what the Left should do…
>>1880096>nothing good comes from FrancePlenty of good and bad came from france. The red flag come from paris commune. And the guillotine ofc.
The french revolution was a shining example and inspiration for all progressives for decades.
>Even their best intellectuals ended up quitting the left entirelyno ? Sartre ? De Beauvoir ? Clouscard ? Debord ?
And post 1945, the PCF did gain absolutely massive concessions from porkies to the benefits of workers, the neolib still havent managed to completely destroy what was obtained there, especially social security.
>>1880116>literally a bunch of students protesting yeah, the movement won when the worker joined in a general strike though, and again significant gains for workers, with the added benefit of all porkies shitting their pants (de gaulle even ran to germany). There was absolutely revolutionary potential there. Dont worry though, the far left did do the criticism of 68, the libs are the ones wanking a lot about it
>its also the cancer that's eating it up from the inside what the fuck are you on about.
>The French revolution was a mistake no, fuck you
>we need to stop fucking romanticizing it.no, fuck you
damn look at me getting all defensive and nationalist
>>1880090 (OP)
like everywhere, collapsed with ussr, but still we have few far left parties that carries the ideas in modern electoral spectacle, and our main left opposition party is on many things more radical than average euro socdem. And yes, its still completely socially acceptable in most circles, although many will separate themselves from (and/or denounce) real socialist projects.
>>1880090I met a pretty well-informed left-wing journalist who spoke French and spent time there and asked him about it and he said it's not very strong. Really it's that France is roughly split three ways between left (Melenchon), center (Macron), and the right (Le Pen).
>>1880116>The French revolution was a mistakeWoah, hey!
>>1880149>The students with their retarded sex obsessed avant-garde ideology decided the workers were retarded and they needed to lecture and preach the virtues of anal group sex to those dumb blue collar savagesthe fuck are you on about. Theres plenty of reasonable criticism to make, but this aint one of them. Far left was strong among students, and sex was far from the only thing they wanted, even if the movement started by wanting to stop segregating schools (which was still a good thing to ask btw).
>The whole reason the Soviet Union and China became autocratic guided democracy (aka dictatorships) oh you're a retard, ofc
>was because France did it yep, nothing to do with material reasons and real political struggle, just cargo cultism
what a dumb fucking post
>>1880149>let's just bargain with porky for the share of our own exploitationKys rightoid and tell your friends at A More Perfect Union to gas themselves
>>1880090They are a faction of the radicals of France. Anti-status quo, at least in rethoric. I would say France has the highest ammount of "radicals" in Europe.
France is probably the most class conscious country in all of the European core atm
>>1880149>Leftists have a really poor understanding of what the French revolution actually was. If the Jacobins were around today we'd call them fascists because that's closer to what they truly were.I think Napoleon is closer to being fascist than they were
You are correct the French Revolution was living rent free in the heads of all these subsequent revolutionaries though, and they thought their revolutions were going to play out exactly the same way and acted accordingly
Saying the whole thing was a mistake is going too far though. Maybe they should have stopped before purging the girondins
>>1880252Including the French capitalist class though. lol
>>1880149yes they were such fascists that all that fascists talk about is how much they hate the enlightenment and the french revolution
>>1880149>Because the CPSU's foreign relations people knew that there was no real chance of a revolution there at all Yeah this is it and totally not because the USSR had completely abandoned internationalism at that point!
>>1880306CPSU did not throw away internationalism. In the 60s they supported multiple communist and national liberation movements. More crucially outside the imperial core that benefitted from colonization. France was likely not going to succeed compared to Angola for example.
>>1880306weird how they were actively supporting revolutionaries in every other continent
>>1880168The student movement in 68 was not a revolutionary movement period. Sure, they did have legitimate grievances (as well as illegitimate ones) but they were not going to overthrow the state anytime soon. What made May 68 different was that workers got involved and there were grassroots strikes and occupations on a huge scale. But these workers and protesters/rioters in working class districts weren't all leftists bent on revolution. They had different aims, different beliefs, and different objectives. There was no common revolutionary thread that held all of these groups together. The idea that there were months long mass protests led by students and workers all coming together around a new left ideology is a myth created by the student 68ers themselves. They wrote dozens of nostalgic books about May 68 that created an enduring myth of a great revolution that almost came but didn't.
>even if the movement started by wanting to stop segregating schools (which was still a good thing to ask btw)I'm pretty mixed about this. Some of the changes brought about by student movements in the 60s were harmful to the academic establishment in negative ways. Its one of the contributing factors for why academia so god damn corrupt, dysfunctional, and anti-intellectual these days. Neoliberalism has played a role but so did a psychotic student movement high on their own avant-garde bullshit.
>yep, nothing to do with material reasons and real political struggle, just cargo cultismI hate how you dogmatic Marxists do this. Just wheel out "material conditions" like a chatbot whenever anyone brings up ideological motivations as if people don't think and have ideas which go on to shape how they respond to material circumstances. Communists and anarchists, as far back as Marx's own days, idolized the French revolution to an unhealthy degree. They believed the French revolution was this amazing event in human history and the most recent example of a total transformation of society. They looked to the French to develop strategies and models to guide their own behavior and develop a theory of revolution and their view of that period was rose-tinted and extremely self-serving. This cultish obsession with re-enacting scenes from French revolutionary history directly fed into how they made political decisions and responded to material conditions on the ground.
The Soviet Union might have survived had they not insisted on copying and re-playing a script handed down by the French. Why carry out unnecessary purges? The French did it. Why launch top down social engineering projects to change culture or launch crusades against religion? The French did it. Why establish authoritarian committees of technocrats to circumvent and "temporarily guide" the revolutionary democracy you'd just built? Because that's what they did in France. The Bolsheviks even named a god damn battleship after Jean Paul Marat, a guy who was basically a tabloid writer and shit stirrer who whipped up mob violence against mostly innocent people.
And before any smug anarchists get any ideas, you do this too with Catalonia. I've seen anarchists get upset that say the Zapatistas or "the Kurds" haven't replicated X or Y policy from Catalonia, and even the anarchists cult worship the French revolution.
There is little to no empirical studies of revolutions beyond France, Russia, and Catalonia circlejerk with the same poorly evidenced truisms repeated over and over again and evidence to the contrary is dismissed. "you have to purge people during a revolution" or "all revolutions are bloody and ruthless in ways that make them worse than war" etc. Its a great irony that the supposedly progressive left is so backward looking and conservative. Repeat the past, read the same books, rinse and repeat. Its shameful.
>>1880264Napoleon was a pragmatist who was trying to balance the revolution while trying to bring France (and himself) back into the European fold and create a liberal monarchy. In that sense, he was conservative compared to the Jacobins and Girondans but still a radical in the eyes of Europe's established monarchies. He carried over many ideas from the revolutionary period and tried to integrate them into his own form of government creating a unique hybrid. But when you examine the rhetoric and behavior of the Jacobins you can see how proto-fascistic they were. The French Republic would be an ethnostate for a French nation where everybody would speak the same language, follow the same state mandated beliefs, where mass surveillance was used for the first time in its primitive form, and all who resisted were put to death. The ideologies of the French revolution was a mix of French Enlightenment liberalism of populist and aristocratic varieties, misinterpretations of Rousseau, and larping the Roman Republic combined with extreme xenophobic nationalism.
There is a lot more continuity between the radical revolutionary period and the Napoleonic era than most leftists would like to admit. Its strategic because you can then blame a ton of bad things on Napoleon and use him as a fall guy, which is what Trotskyists do with Stalin and anarchists do with Lenin, and then pretend everything was okay until the villain took over. Pretty ironic considering how the same people are sticklers for material conditions and oppose big man theories of history only to do it themselves when it suits them.
>>1880306You only put bets on the horse that has a chance of winning. Whenever there was a revolutionary group undermining NATO or America, the Soviets and Chinese gave them generous support and competed with each other to back them. This didn't happen in May 68 because the Soviets knew that it wasn't going to lead to a full blown revolution. They were more concerned that Maoism was spreading in Europe than another French revolution. It was a storm in a tea cup.
>>1880090Communists are lolcows in the west, especially leninists, it's more socially acceptable than calling yourself a Nazi but still pretty leftfield
>>1880090being a communist is ridiculed in france + no one knows what the fuck it consists of except stereotypes of rigid equality and staline, literally the only things they can think of.
the overton window is way on the right now, mélenchon is considered not far left anymore (extrême gauche) but ultra left (he's a socdem)
also people who vote mélenchon think they're marxist leninists and actual MLM tell people to vote socdem
shit's fucked up and retarded
>>1881744same as everywhere else then
>>1881744Insane to believe how right wingers managed to defeat leftists everywhere. Leftists ideas don't appeal to anyone anymore. Workers vote for their own enslavement in hopes of lower taxes
>>1881922>"You did this to yourself"Leftists have spent the last century or so doing their best to alienate and annoy pretty much everybody
>>1881922You are right, vbut half of the workers don't vote. So hopelessness and apathy is a problem too.
>>1880276This. The french bourgeoisie is very class conscious.
For the working class, it's not this though. There was the yellow vests movement which made people regain class consciousness, but since the left didn't make anything out of it (except for marginal people like Ruffin), it soon became a good electoral basis for the far right. Because the french are very anti-establishment - but not anti-authoritarian. There is a good tradition of anti-etatism and de-centralization, not in a libertarian or anarchist way, but rooted in anti-establishment as well. France also has a lot of (somewhat) communist institutions (Sécurité Sociale, intermittence).
>>1880252No they're not. They're just gonna vote for the right-wing party waiting for their life to magically improve again.
D'ailleurs qui était à République ? C'était déprimant, que des jeunes et des étudiants, clairement pas l'ambiance 2002.
Copypasta:
>I follow French politics closely, here are a few thoughts :
>First timing is definitely key here : Macron is calling the elections as soon as he can : in a mere 20 days. Most of his opponents are not ready : they have no candidates selected for many constituencies, there remain bitter rivalries between allies, etc.
>Second, this move is likely less intended against the far-right and more again his left. The socialist coalition made marked improvements in the European elections, coming very close to beating Macron's own Renaissance (14% to 14,6%). Macron is likely more vulnerable from the left than from the right, and the timing is quite bad for the left-wing parties due to internal disagreements and lack of a common platform.
>Third, more broadly, I believe he is trying to consolidate the French political landscape between the far-right and his party as the liberal alternative. This is the more striking results of his last 3 elections. Should there be but 2 parties, it is likely that the far-right won't get a majority soon.
>Fourth (a tad less seriously), the French team is the favorite to win the Euro 2024 football championship which will be played at the same time as the election (June, 14 - July 14, compare with the election on June 30, July 7). So he may intend to play on the French team's success for his own campaign…
>>1882088cursed dubs for based news
(very impressed that the PS agreed to it so quickly)
>>1882090how much support do they have?
>>188212010% of vooters (which is approx. 50% of people who are registered to vote)
>>1882122 (me)
Correcting with socdems and greens : ~30%
>>1882090Are these commie orgs or just libs standing together with other libs for a few weeks for safe protests?
>>1882122wtf, french elections only have like 20% turnout?
>>1882127No he is coping about the majority choosing reactionary politicians over ones that would benefit them
>>1882125Those are purely lib, reformist, electoral parties or movements. There are commie (mostly trotskysts) orgs which haven't signed this.
>>1882127What do you mean by that? I was wrong on the total of the electoral left percentage (I first only thought of LFI)
>>1882088Wait how, wasn't PS acting very annoying?
>>1882127 I think the anon meant that only 50% of people registered to vote actually do, and 10% of those vote LFI.
>>1882238
Trotzkyist splitters at it again.
<Marine Le Pen described Russian President Vladimir Putin as a "defender of the Christian heritage of European civilisation." The National Front considers that Ukraine has been subjugated by the United States, through the Revolution of Dignity. The National Front denounces anti-Russian feelings in Eastern Europe and the submission of Western Europe to "Washington's" interests in the region. Marine Le Pen is very critical against the threats of sanctions directed by the international community against Russia: "European countries should seek a solution through diplomacy rather than making threats that could lead to an escalation." She argues that the United States is leading a new Cold War against Russia. She sees no other solution for peace in Ukraine than to organise a kind of federation that would allow each region to have a large degree of autonomy.
>>1882252
In France? Literally the last time they did this which led to the establishment of labor rights in France. Have you ever touched a history book?
>>1880122There's a pretty big gap between killing your wife and having your bff pay your rent, just sayin
>>1882088There is shock and seethe in the media right now. It's funny to witness. Hell it suprised us that PS actually did this
Just realized PS just doing this because now they can be at the top of all lists and possibly the presidential candidacy because now they are nominally larger than LFI.
>>1882290I doubt that they can get their way that much when LFI,especially Ruffin is pushing super hard for the Popular Front. It is clear Ruffin wants to be lead the effort and be the candidate in the next presidential election.
Watched some French Tv pundits and the center+right is going full-steam ahead with their smear campaign. Now the entire French left is anti-semitic and getting the Corbyn treatment apparently.
>>1882125That means she is a populist and no doubt she will continue funding Ukrainian neo-nazis.
>>1882095>empowering the far right to shut out the leftnow where have i heard this one before
Lmao one of the succdem party (not PS) left the Popular front just hours after the agreed to it. What a joke. At least now the Popular Front is free from its cancers. All that is left now is to either intergrate NPA and LO or get them to stand down and endorse the Popular Front.
>>1882088>>1882305Can someone explain to me what this means?
>>1882621Place publique is out. Mouvement Républicain et Citoyen, NPA, Les Radicaux de Gauche wants in.
>>1882619They are literally the most neolib element. I. am not shocked.
>>1882629Various left wing parties are joining for a unity ticket for the upcoming French parliamentary elections in order to avoid being crushed between Le Pen and Macron.
>>1882644this, glucksman is basically early macron pretending to be leftist, Im glad they are not in the coalition, hope they crash and burn because they seriously thought a good score at euro election means anything
>>1880135>>1880134>neolib replaced marxistin academia, yes
>>1882676>neolibs have cootiesAnything that demystifies social control is a valid addition to the Marxist reading list. Antyhing that doesn't can go to hell.
>>1882693Holy fuck, huge news, this is the rump party of the French conservatives and part of EPP, formerly France's europhile right-wing. Big taboos are being broken right now.
Macron has pulled a Hindenburg and the Center-right is following suit endorsing fascism.
>>1882713It seems Le Pen has given up on being anti Euro so it makes sense I guess
>>1882723>It seems Le Pen has given up on being anti Euro so it makes sense I guessNot that surprising, always seemed opportunist, there has always been a strong pan-european tendency within fascism.
>>1883078Now I got what kind of game Brigitte's husband is playing: he wants a chaotic, hung parliament so that he can carry on with his IVPITERIAN presidency for the next three years until he has to fuck off. Galaxy brain stuff at work here.
>>1882709>PS (CIA)Let's not forget that in 2017 soCIAlist ministers had agreed on an unwritten plan in case Le Pen would have won those year's presidential election. Basically, they would have enacted a state of emergency to crush a possible leftwing uprising or something like that.
>>1883141>Brigitte's husbandkek. i'm going to use this from now on.
Okay, we have a front populaire but what now? how can they take more seats than le pen in just 3 weeks?
>>1883176Even if you simply add the results of the left and the succdems they don't reach the total of the RN, and it's probable that a not insignificant number of voters will not be down with the alliance for various reasons, chief among them that LFI's attacked every day from the right and there's enormous pressure for the other parties to distance themselves from them. Also there's been zero time to agree on anything so they'll have very little credibility for how they're planning to handle things after the election. Everyone knows they're gonna backstab each other at the first opportunity.
Two things can still somewhat work against the RN: European elections typically have a bigger part of protest votes so it's not impossible that they'll have a lesser score this time, and there might be a more energized vote against them following the current shitshow.
I wouldn't count on it though. RN can still win big just because every other party is in complete chaos.
The youngest French communist is 45 years old.
>>1883078but has the proletarian gained class consciousness? Everyone talks about the vanguard until the popular masses revolt against the revolutionary minority.
>>1883078Nothing ever happens
>>1883235>Everyone talks about the vanguard until the popular masses revolt against the revolutionary minority.Basically never happened, the vanguard is that good for the working class in an historical analysis.
>>1883248>in an historical analysisI'm gonna need an N for that whig shit, bot
>>1882693>>1882713it could also be just establishment realizing that Macron is probably done and best thing now ally with national rally to assert some leverage on them and eventually suffocate and subdue them.
>>1883176At the very least, their formation denies RN the majority.
>>1883195>Also there's been zero time to agree on anything so they'll have very little credibility for how they're planning to handle things after the election. Everyone knows they're gonna backstab each other at the first opportunity.They literally done this before with okayish results. Just redo the policies they wanted as NUPES. If anything what you said applies to the french right. They can accuse RN of wanting to keep the pension retirement reform coz they are willing to ally with those that do.
>>1883429If they formed the NUPES during the first presidential round they would have handily won the presidency LFI alone only missed it by a few percentage points.
>>1883432That's true but tbf the polling didn't suggest that at the time. Melenchon exceeded all expectation in that one.
>>1883435It's incredible how disliked Melenchon is among the other party elites, down to the personal level, despite the fact that he is a brilliant political strategist and orator.
>>1883436I guess because he is genuinely hostile to the establishment. Plus he doesn't seem like a nice man to hang out with.
Socialists used to dominate French politics for decades, you find a lot of communists on the local level still and quite a few commie mayors. They have gone down the absolute drain since 2012 though
>>1883507But what happened?
>>1883514this is such an embarassing larp
i wish it wasn't this way, but literally all of these parties except FI are completely irrelevant
>>1883511Macron happened, he was a socialist party member and look where he is now
>>1883530But how did the IVPITERIAN drag the french left down with him? Won't it make more sense that Hollande messed something up?
>>1883436They've been dreaming of Corbyning him for years and they're gonna try their hardest this time.
>>1883540Hollande's presidency, plus Mélenchon and Macron's parties eating into their margins. Same thing happened with Les Républicains and Macron/Le Pen. They were big tent parties so they don't know how to position themselves ideologically now that their voters can shop elsewhere and a guy who shares 95% of their ideas is in power.
>>1880162The guillotine took the nobility of a beheading and turned it into some goofy industrial bullshit. It's the early modern equivalent of how the US uses all sorts of goofy poisons and shit instead of just using a firing squad.
>Napoleon was as much a product of the French revolution as Robespierre
I'd argue Napoleon was a product of the 9th of Thermidor and the ultra-leftist refusal to temper the terror, leading to a collapse into the directory. Napoleon represented the kind of man Robespierre spent his life rooting out (although, it is known now Robespierre never even wielded absolute authority).
>Because leftoids and even Iranian Islamists took the French revolution as a model.
When I said model, I did not literally mean they copied every aspect of it. Cause they did not. What the Jacobins gave revolutionary movements was a guide on how to seize state power and hold it. Without Danton's insurrectionary commune there would be no Bolshevik revolution. "Purges" are the organic consequence of ideological struggle within a party and represent the sharpening of political contradictions.
>why Zhou Enlai was famously ambiguous about the French revolution
"it remains to be seen." Isn't ambiguous. It is just acknowledging that the aims of the French Revolution were never achieved and the torch was given to the communists.
> became autocratic guided democracy (aka dictatorships) with mass purges
With one revolution surviving 71 years before having its own thermidor and another still going strong. Thereby validating the Jacobin model as the only successful way thus far to seize and hold state power.
>Leftists have a really poor understanding of what the French revolution actually was
Evidently you do.
> If the Jacobins were around today we'd call them fascists
The Jacobin ideal was far too universal to be called Fascist. Historians today are even writing pieces like: Robespierre an old regime feminist? Or how Robespierre's statute still stands in Haiti because he defended the colonial people's right to revolt. Let alone his demand that Christians live like their savior and distrust of wealth in general. Doesn't sound very fascist. The Jacobins were petty-bourgeois revolutionaries and not communists but they still made one hell of an effort.
>The left will do much better if we just abandon this obsessive French revolution larping
There never was a larp. I find most leftists are ignorant of the French Revolution today, despite it being the only successful seizure of state power occurring in a Western colonial state besides Portugal. Toward the final months of Robespierre privately lamented to Saint-Just that he feared the terror would never end. But in those final months, Robespierre also lashed out at the merchants and large bourgeoisie. He spoke of the proletarian's plight as the class and spoke of the role of society was to support those who were poorest.
>Leftists have a really poor understanding of what the French revolution actually was
It seems you do.
French comrades. Does the Popular Front have any chance of winning or is this yet another nothingburger?
>>1882710>Anything that demystifies social control is a valid addition to the Marxist reading list.His conclusion (pro-neolib) are tied up with his method.
>>1883731Sure, just like every ideology arising out of the early 20th century made heavy industry into a god and the total consolidation of society in and out of the workplace into a social imperative. If your historical materialism were more developed that would be obvious. Instead you're a middle class lackey of the bourgeoisie still dickriding Taylorism-Fordism as the future of humanity.
If your immanent critique simply stands athwart history at the intersection of 1947 yelling "Lalalalala none of this is happening" then 1. it isn't immanent 2. it isn't critique 3. you are a larping boomer.
>>1883728not a nothingburger, the far right gonna win which is a significant shift in electoral dynamics, although in practical terms this aint gonna change much in how shit is run
popular front hope of win is minuscule, they might even loose seats compared to last alliance
>>1883728It's better then nothing but it is foolish to count on an institutional solution, go vote for them if you can but direct action is what is needed.
Seeing how openly fascist the cops are in france ,every protest will turn violent fast, so there is really no need to hold back at this point.
Some people in our country start praising the European right-wing when they see the National Rally (or a similar party) being unfriendly towards Ukraine. They seem to be unaware that this party once paid homage at the Yasukuni Shrine.
国内一些人看见国民联盟对乌克兰没有好脸色就开始鼓吹欧洲右翼了，他们似乎不知道这个政党曾经参拜过靖国神社
Marechal and Zemmour broke up, lul
>>1883959What are dvg and r!?
>>1883984literally who and literally whom?
>>1883986marine's twice married "ultra-catholic" niece whose italian husband looks like an arab and and algerian jew that heads the extreme-right party and rails against the great replacement of white EVROPEANS®
>>1883984lmaaao really? That's great.
>>1883986DVG means 'divers gauche' meaning 'diverse' left, DVD 'divers droite' diverse right . This is a label in France chosen and given to (regional) independent candidates, alliances or electoral lists that are not part of a major or official party to put them in a political category.
R! is Reconquête which is a relatively new right-wing party founded by Eric Zemmour, an Algerian Jew and French Ultra-Nationalist former journalist (basically the French Tucker Carlson/Bill O'Oreilly) and Marie Marechal Le Pen the niece of the current leader of the National Ralley.
>>1883997>an Algerian Jew Aw man. Us Algerians really should know better.
>>1883984This and the Republican leader arguing with his party and their twitter account getting deleted is hilarious.
Say what you will about the French Left but at least they are not up to this level of hi-jinks yet.
>>1884027He should say fuck it and roll up with a Robespierre wig
>>1883984She shouldn't be called Marechal. Her biological father is not some Monsieur Marechal, but a notorious French spy who also liked to work for I****l.
>>1883991>>1883999The racist minority is too common of a trope nowadays, it's just unfunny now.
>>1883997>DVG means 'divers gauche'Fascinating.
>>1883984Apparently RN refuses to take her back too lol
>>1880090I heard that in Brittany they have communist parties in barns
>>1883984that's a win for the french right though
zemmour fucking glows
Nouveau Front populaire is officially formed.
>>1884785fwiw, it doesn't seem like most voters of either right wing parties are as happy about any potential alliance as the left wing parties and their voters.
And it would makes sense, NPF can just accuse them of an alliance of convenience, asking why is a party who opposed the pension reform allying with a party that doesn't?
So basically the head of the French 'Republican Party' (center-right, gaullist, traditionally europhile but in recently years getting more and more unhinged) has barricaded himself in his office and staged a one-man lock-out despite the fact that his party has just expelled him. So today around noon the party secretary found a second and could enter the building with the disgraced president nowhere to be found.
But it's not over because there seem to be some legal issues surrounding the authority of the president and his presumptive expulsion. It seems like the Republicans will spend the next month in an internal legal battle instead of participating in the election. In the worst case the expulsion is ruled illegal and the president single-handedly ends up signing up the entire party to an electoral alliance with the Far-right, resulting in total implosion. This is all being reported in the French press.
This is the weirdest shit in French politics since the Dreyfuss affair.
why is french politics so schizophrenic
>>1884878Tell us whether their policies and plans are based or not.
On the whole, it's because the Socialist Party has done shit, the center-right "Republicans" party has done shit and the bourgeois media is advertising for the far right by inviting them on and propagating the far-right discourse on "grand replacement" and "delinquent migrants".
>>1884883Really? The other controversies that are ongoing as well such as R! spiltting apart and LFI MPs get accused of antisemitism coz they mocked a jewish presenter really adds on to the vibe that the election is a shitshow.
>>1884910The policies comes out tomorrow.
>>1883749You are without a doubt the biggest pseud on this entire forum.
>>1884883Here is a good summary of the last absolutely batshit crazy 24h.
Turn on subtitles and. then autotranslate.
>>1884928les pauvres youpins
est-ce que quelqu'un les sauvera des big bad cocos
>>1884928>LFI MPs get accused of antisemitismaccusing leftists of antisemitism has become a staple for reactoids since the founding of the zionist entity
>>1885429lol yeah I always love his interventions. He has become very good at answering those "do you condemn the violence" shit by striking right back. Easy to be prepared too, its always the same question.
>>1884910most of them are unapplicable under the EU,or not decided by the national assembly.
according to some retard on 4chan tiktok is banning leftist accounts in france.
is that true or just rightoid delusion?
>>1886554is this a compromise with LFI? im totally ignorant as to this guy
>>1886554Is this good or bad
>>1886562>>1886564This is a good thing. LFI has negotiated for candidates from more radical (and smaller) parties that joined the alliance to run as sole candidates under the Popular Front banner. They have also nominated a whole bunch of people from unions and extra-parliamentary anti-fascist orgs.
>>1886571While a 7% point gap might seem large in 2022 Nupes wasn't as united as NFP is now and Poutou has national-level recognition while his one-term RN opponent is some unknown schizo climate-denialist small business winery owner fascist pieds-noirs prick.
>>1886571Is it finally time to go from "Nothing ever happens" to "Maybe some things will happen"?
>>1886600He is a brilliant orator, politician and used to be Melenchon's designated successor before he went full retard and slapped his wife during a dispute, he basically has been completely rehabilitated by LFI but will likely never take on a significant public role again. Melenchon is shielding his closest loyalists and purging those that were critical of him.
>>1880142>The revolution's model that made possible: the Haitian, Soviet, Chinese, and Cambodian revolution>Cambodian revolutionYou dont mean..
>>1886593They're betting on nostalgia
>>1886600If he purged the socdems then what remains on LFI?
>>1886600>purged soc-dem progressiveshow is this a bad thing?
French courts have suspended the expulsion of the leader of the gaullist, center-right party Republican Party(LR) who is moving forward with his one-man negotiations and selection process for a shared candidate list with the French far-right RN. The legal dispute between the LR party board and the president is continuing.
https://www.francetvinfo.fr/elections/legislatives/elections-legislatives-2024-la-justice-suspend-l-exclusion-du-president-des-republicains-eric-ciotti-par-son-parti_6604563.html
>>1886617>how is this a bad thing?Do you even know who were those "soc-dem progressives" that were "purged"?
>>1886884NFP supports a weapon's embargo against Israel and recognition of Palestine.
>>1883819Man there are news of Alternative für Deutschland (literal neonazi party) going on an official visit over there last June and allegedly meeting with the Deputy Ministry of Foreign Affairs.
Honestly between that and Kissinger I would be really surprised if they did *not* know.
>>1887029 The relationship between China and Germany during World War II is not as sensitive as it is in Europe.
Given the current friendliness of the AfD towards China, many Chinese nationalists would likely be happy to see the AfD come to power. Whether they see it as the successor of World War II Germany out of admiration for German military power, or as the successor of East Germany out of communist sentiment, the goal is to 'unite all forces that can be united.'
中国和二战时期的德国的关系不像欧洲那么敏感
介于目前afd对华的友好，许多中国的民族主义者应该会乐意见到afd上台，出于对德国军事力量的崇拜把它当作二战德国的继承人也好，出于共产主义情怀当作东德的继承人也罢，反正“团结一切可以团结的力量”
>>1887029they went to japan?
>>1887130'Diplomacy, exchange and cooperation, this was the maxime of my trip to China, invited by the national people's congress. I was a great honor to be received as the first foreign guest in the Great Hall of the People after the pandemic.'
>>1887042Then those people are stupid
>>1887241>which would virtually wipe out almost all openly centrist and liberal forces.finally
>>1887246Macron might end up being a president without a party, lmao.
Do we have any French anons here voting for RN?
>>1887247HINDEBURG HINDEBURG HINDEBURG
>>1887258Yeah, I want to make fun of them
Squeezie, France's biggest YouTuber, basically the French equivalent of PewDiePie has posted several pages on IG condeming RN and echoing many points listed in the program of the Popular Front, without a direct endorsement. This was met with a swift reaction on Jordan Bardella's instagram and then even with him commenting on it during an interview, basically calling leftist social media figures a bunch of out of touch millionaires.
This is basically the equivalent of Donald Trump commenting publicly on Hasan Piker's social media posts.
Sage because /isg/ish content, however this is a new evolution in French electoral politics.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZSh35w709k
>>1887325>Donald Trump commenting publicly on Hasan Piker's social media posts.this would not even surprise me a little bit unfortunately
>>1887258French ziggas I bet.
>>1887241I see some green party in the Front populaire. Unless the anti capitalists actually made them fucking bow to their policies I doubt this is France crushing the centrists and libs.
>>1887373That's why I said 'openly liberal and centrist'.
Obviously Greens and SocDems are part of the Popular Front and they managed to water down some positions, especially with regards to foreign policy.
>>1887365Yeah, Trump has already done a lot to normalize the social mediatization of American politics.
>>1880096That's why they have been some of the most succesful leftists in history. History is written by Crazy people
>>1887376>>1888764What positions did they water down?
>>1888793military aid to ukraine
>>1887241>The Popular Front which would virtually wipe out almost all openly centrist and liberal forces.>Is filled with openly liberal forces???
>>1888810Anything else? geopolitics is kinda insignificant anyway.
>>1889170Outside of geopolitics, the only thing is that they decided to shut up about nuclear power retirement because some retards on the left still think it's a good idea to build new plants
>>1880096What's wrong with Blanqui? From what I read of the French Commune it seems he did literally nothing wrong and had all the actual good ideas that were overruled, like marching on Vichy.
>>1889170>geopolitics is kinda insignificant anyway.Not in the case of France especially Françafrique. How France responds to its "backyard" will effect the economy and working conditions of France.
>>1880149>CPSU's foreign relations people knewthe soviets where retarded that why they dont exist no more
>>1889179Let's be real there, the main thing affected would be shareholders profits, ultimately as long as the oil prices are stable it won't affect the economy much. If the France-African countries get the idea to nationalize French shit without paying it would also throw off every other capitalist and state willing to invest there Chinese included, and it they loose their grip the huge French MIC can still make a buck at the end of the day by selling weapons to people they like in the new regions taken by strife.
Ultimately, and it's sad, but the electorate does not care about that nearly as much about that as the war in ukraine or in the near east, mainly because of selective media coverage, and even that is kinda of insignificant because most people don't decide to vote in regard of these issues.
>>1889179Okay how is the NPF gonna deal with territorial and ex-colonial situation?
>>1880149>A revolution in France, which would have created a left government that was probably anti-SovietSoviet Union failed when they retreated to nation-bulding after Lenin. The Brest-Litovsk treaty wouldn't have been signed by any of post-Lenin soviet leaders cause they were too preoccupied in protecting "the nation" instead of advancing socialism, even if it lowered the USSR status in the world. See also the Greek debacle post WW2.
>>1880140>Could have been if the communist party weren't opportunist cowards and the Kremlin's little bitches, they joined late when the movement was already blossoming into a general strike and they refused to take power when they could.Mark my words. In 30 years people will say the same thing about the BLM movement despite BLM being a democrat-Open Society funded operation to destabilise Trumps presidency to get disinterested people on side for Genocide Joe.
https://web.archive.org/web/20200713091430/https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/13/us/politics/george-soros-racial-justice-organizations.htmlThe 68 movement was a bunch of fucking retards
>>1889230>posting irrelevant burger brainrot shit in reply to a two week old postYou're valid.
>>1889230Bait of the highest degree. Biden got his own protests for the Palestine genocide and Magacommunists like you are still mad that it made the "BLM is a democrat psyop" point mute.
>>1888852Can you provide a citation for a single one of those parties calling itself liberal? Thanks.
>>1889223In the case of Kanaky they oppose any ongoing reform that would expand the voter lists in favor of settlers.
What's a big deal is that the NFP officially supports the creation of a constitutional convention with the goal to abolish the 5th Republic and that now all self-styled leftist political forces have signed up to that.
>>1889291>dae le epic palestinians love my american brainrot?!so true!!!
>>1889295Imagine calling a non-American a "maga communist"
Maybe the retarded brainrotted burger is in your house
>>1889353Haz's brainworms are international
>>1889353There is no reason to distinguish among any conservative socialist movements. They are all protecting the ruling ideas and they will all be charcuterie.
>>1889353Yeah man may 68, it's just like when BLM ended up a general strike where no American worked for two weeks, the president left the country by fear to seek refuge in a fascist dictatorship and the glowies were expecting and planning for a communist coup that never materialized
>>1889175>on the left still think it's a good idea to build new plantswhy is it not?
>>1889412Mainly because renewables can get built a hundred times faster and cheaper and the more they get built the more they make nuclear completely non nonsensical as they negate the need for a baseload. Basically if we launched a big project now (not even happening) in 15 to 20 years when the fleet gets built nuclear will have no place on the grid so that's just hundreds of billions of euros and millions of man hours wasted on useless concrete edifices. By the time it comes online the old plants will be long shut down and replaced by renewables anyways unless someone really wants to risk a trillion euro clean up.
But also the EPR program is an utter failure, the engineering talent is lacking, the economical framework for such a project does not exists, the long term storage solutions are problematic, some of the fuel comes from neocolonies, and there is the whole proliferation thing and the military industry making weapons from it.
So it's just a bad idea all around that still gets pushed because of inertia; there is some amount of misplaced national pride but mostly a lot of capitalists are profiting from the nuclear industry and they want to get the maximum of money before they get shut down not unlike oil porkies.
>>1889421>as they negate the need for a baseloadlmao, here we go again with the antiscientific bullshit
at least say that its actually about ownership and not any of the other scientifically discredited reasons, because its the only legit reason to be critical of nuclear at this point of a literal climate crisis. all of this renewable future predicting has failed all of its marks so far – growth, share of supply, you name it. aside from porky shit there's another reason why renewables aren't eliminating gas/oil/coal power in the west, and its precisely base load. you see countries like germany going from nuclear to coal (lmao) or others going from coal to gas (less dumb, but still pretty dumb), and not as much coal to solar/wind as greens would like.
then there's the people who always conveniently ignore the environmental/ecosystem consequences of maintenance and especially infrastructure production of most sources of renewable power also (read: solar panels are dirty as fuck to make, and the recycling is also piss poor because its expensive, instead they get dumped into africa so kids can get metal poisoning while sifting through electronic trash).
the base load will always be an issue as long as we are under capitalism. porkies owning the renewables will either have to make the majority of their profits from gigantic subsidies to justify to themselves and their investors why they waste a shitton of power for reasons of meeting base load targets on a bad wind/sun day, or they will start pushing for "energy diversification" as they always do because they wont be growing fast enough very soon. this is why the green liberal position is completely untenable, and why the green parties are all full of cranks.
green power proponents have three realistic moves to campaign for (all at the same time ideally):
1. go non proliferation nuclear to prepare for a mass shut down of ALL fossil fuel power at the same time, forget about hydroelectric dams. tell people what they need to hear: we will need at least 1 more generation of nuclear if we want to take carbon reduction targets seriously. anyone who disagrees is wrong.
2. start taking tidal/wave power seriously if you want renewable base load, as its the only non intermittent renewable.
3. focus on publicly owned (nationalise it!), at loss operated (fuck your growth and your profits), wind/solar and pay big bucks into battery and recycling research to make it actually viable in the future.
>>1889980
If you think RN will lose power because of inflation you're either stupid or a fascist
>>1890014Parisians could throw them out?
>>1889980
Hyperinflation is being pushed as a reaction to a posible leftist win, retard.
>>1890072what is the patronat?
>>1890166bosses. Patron = boss in french.
>>1890166The the collection of bosse, corporate, 'management' often used in a derogative context for political agitation.
>>1889298Is that good? The kanuks don't want that too right?
>>1890356If this reform goes through it will give settlers an electoral majority and thus further Kanaky's colonial status, likely forever.
>>1890356depends which kanuks you're talking about,but everybody here thinks they all want to become independent because of their third worldist boners. (pro tip: they will just become an australian colony if they become "independant")
>>1890362settlers are already a majority in the legal electorate. it's why the referendums kept being voted down
>>1891192ferme-la, connard
>>1892269any chance there will be a debate stream with english subtitles somewhere? would be very interested in seeing that
>>1892269France24(eng) might have a subtiled version
>>1892272idk man.
I don't speak French well anyway.
>>1892269Thing is it's not a proportional system like in the UK, so results can shift greatly depending on some local circumcriptions. It's still anyone's game.
>>1892269when is the debate? where can i see it?
also what is the >debout la france soutient le RN referencing?
>>1892278Yea but the vote % is still so high for RN. It seems like NFP's radical economic policies isn't enough to convince a third of France to not be racist. Especially when the RN kid can't even make a full commitment to reverse the retirement reforms. RN voters are running out of reasons except being racist.
>>1892279https://www.entrevue.fr/en/legislatives-debat-attal-bardella-bompard-le-25-juin/It is in 25th June.
>debout la france soutient le RN referencing?Some small far right party that RN picked up. They are copying the NFP's strategy of forming a coalition.
Franceanons, say that the polls are right and RN wins but NFP puts in a great show. What do you think are the chances they immediately shatter after the elections? Is there any hope that a RN government would fuck things up enough to make LFI more popular?
>>1892288Unfortunately there were some reports and revelations (in the newspaper express) that the mainstream left parties (this also includes the pcf btw, since it's a former governing party) were already planning to freeze out LFI for a long time leading up to current events and form a center+left alliance and especially dislodge Melenchon and his inner circle during the next election before they got taken aback by the sudden election.
Due to the strong results of the socdems, LFI had to cede way more circumcriptions to them. Right now LFI doesn't have an absolute majority when it comes to candidates anymore like during the last election . There is the latent fear on the side of LFI and ongoing conflict within the coalition that the non-LFI groups might force a vote on a non-LFI candidate together to head NFP and ultimately the prime minister, even if LFI wins a plurality.
Their ultimate goal has always been to decapitate LFI and get rid off Melenchon and his inner circle because they are based and the real ones as far as it comes to French politics. They would also favor an LFI member not from Melenchon's clique. That's also partly what the controversy of LFI getting rid of some MPs was about that was characterized as a small purge in French media.
>>1892301The actions of the PCF are especially disappointing in my personal. I know there is competition between political orgs but here has been a comtinous pattern of Eurocommunist parties that have a past history of governance who have sabotaged the newly emerged 'populist' leftist political forces that came about as a result of the financial and austerity crisis acting as a sort of henchmen for the mainstream SocDems.
>>1892303
France as a nation itself began with the french revolution, which is the inception of leftism
>>1892281>They are copying the NFP's strategy of forming a coalition.doesn't seem to be doing much for them
>>1892307But the american revolution was first
>>1892311Thomas jefferson was a jacobin
They were synonymous events in world-history
anyone wanna read this hilarious article from the nytimes about the "plight" of jews having to vote for the RN because it's the only party that unconditionally supports the homeland they've never been in?:
https://archive.is/ClWkq
>>1892281who is the guy debating for the NFP?
>>1892301how "problematic" were the people that were kicked out?
>>1892301its so demoralizing to see left parties just purposely destroy those with the most momentum and most principles. kind of similar to UK labour but theyve been a lost cause for a long time and thats one party fighting over leadership, this seems worse. it doesnt even make sense to me from a practical opportunistic standpoint
>>1892323So I don't know all the specifics and I am not saying that Melenchon should by immune from criticism but 4 out of 5 immediately announced a dissident candidacy and as far as I remember some of them were among the most critical when it came to LFI pro-Palestine line (many prominent LFI members and deputies wouldn't even give in to denouncing Hamas as a terrorist org).
LFI is under constant attacks for that. You have to know that French media has morphed to something that is arguably worse than American media. Like 3 billionaires now own all TV channels. Many new right-wing politicians and demagogues were constantly pushed or even started out as 'journalists' and commentators at those media channels like Zemmour.
Like 2 years ago a 12 year old Jewish girl was raped and any time an LFI candidate was on like two ceyrons were constantly flashing the news about the rape for example, implying that it's LFI that bears responsibility for their Palestine support.
>>1892335Like 2 days ago"
>>1892323The current leader of LFI.
>>1892317Fuck i hate these people so much. i'm not a stalinite, but fuck me if i wouldn't do purges from day one all around
>>1892335Someone needs to start 🔥 🚪 of media execs 🏠's iykwimf.
>>1893008How is trust in media, both youth and general?
>>1893015Lol, LFI's message has been 'RN is just Macron, just on steroids', so funny how Attal and Bardella have the same facial expression and suit combo. Almost looks like a gigachad/soyjak meme with Bompart smiling in the middle.
Bonjour mes amis
Comment trouves-te la Nouveau Front populaire? Est-ce que cela va être comme le dernier fois?
J'écoutais à un podcast sur Macron et je fus choqué à apprendre que Macron a fais celle gambit auparavant dans 2018 contre Le Pen
Aussi que il a trompé un gauchist président
Excuse mon foireux français
>>1893008wonder how many of those are part of the chosen
i was watching french series and movies the other day to learn french and i was surprised at how many actors were part of the tribe
>>1893015Utterly begging for ropes!
>>1893814Good thing Hollande publicly said that JLM should step down, everybody hates Hollande with a passion, so it might cancel out.
>>1894011>Melenchon: I have no rancor for Hollande, what was said has been said with the past, I personally welcome any ally in this fight.
<Hollande: Melenchon should retire and stay away.lul
>>1880149adolf hitler post
>>1893814why would they decide after the elections? that's the dumbest thing ever, they need to decide now. the party with the biggest vote share in the coalition should get PM.
>>1894110I think LFI and the others made a gamble that their bloc would have the most seats after the election.
>>1894128Yea probably a weakness of the NFP.
>>1889501We are in a climate crisis, which is why we should spend every dime in energy sources that can be installed fast, for cheap, and everywhere like in poor global south countries. Nuclear ain't it.
Solar panels are literally glass and metal, it's the easiest thing to make and recycle despite your right wing talking points. Meanwhile there is still no solid plan to decommission nuke plants or to take care of most of the waste long term. And if you care about kids getting poisoned don't look to close at uranium mines where they pump thousands of acres full of sulfuric acid for that sweet yellow cake, often in places that will never see a watt of nuclear power.
In fifteen years, long before any new plants of an hypothetical nuclear plant program launched now would be built, the grid will almost be only renewables and storage, in short no more baseload, no more room for nuclear
You people refuse to acknowledge how technologies and the economy are evolving and you are useful idiots for the oil industry who aims to delay renewables with the nuclear scam. Battery tech is there, renewable tech is there, recycling tech is there and the industry is there, baseload is going away ergo it's the stupidest thing to build new plants.
>>1894615Normalizre beating people unconscious for talking like political pundits
>>1894620Folks we've got a very bad climate crisis, very bad, some are even saying the worst climate crisis ever, even bigger than the big hole, the big hole in the O-Zone layer. We cleaned that right up didn't we? We cleaned it right up and didn't even need nuclear, it wasn't needed. We can do it again with these big beautiful panels, they're called solar panels, and they're made from just glass and metal and they're the easiest thing to make and recycle despite what the haters are saying and we all know they're wrong. The nuclear fans don't have a plan but I've got the best plan and it will be faster and cheaper than any other plan they can come up with, believe me. Everybody knows it's true.
>>1894620>>1894628Feel free to stop plugging your ears with your fingers while singing loudly anytime.
>>1894634We're messing with the big stuff now. The N-Word. The NUCLEAR word.
>>1894634Recycling is not a magic spell of destruction. Such spells are actually those of consumerism. I mean, one could say the same thing about people, that they are made of water and metal and they should therefore be easy to recycle. In fact it's not that easy
even in China. Being technologically ignorant and thinking with your emotions isn't excused by being directionally correct.
To take just one falsehood from your Gish gallop because I have better things to do with my time than Brandolini: solar panels are in fact difficult to recycle because they are built to withstand harsh conditions such as precipitation and temperature cycling. A panel that is easy to recycle will have been damaged by environmental conditions long before its service life has elapsed. In terms of the triangle of green disposition, if reduction of solar panel production is not on the menu, and recycling is ineffective, then the third and only remaining option once they no longer produce adequate power for service in their panel farm… is reuse.
Luckily, there are plenty of applications in remote locations that need only 1-2kWh each day to be useful. For example, to draw a few thousand liters of water to the surface ~daily, or to power a small radio repeater.
>baseload is going away>people will be unplugging their digital clocks, computers, street lights, etc. when not in useYou went full retard.
>>1894615>Solar panels are literally glass and metalwell no, it's also silicon and rare earths isn't it?
>>1894669Hush, no material reality allowed in politics
>>1894669You know what glass is right?
>>1894733NTA but even if glass and solar panels are made of silicon to call photovoltaic cells glass is a bit disingenous for the structure necessary to get electricity is really different from the amorphous glass form of silicon.
That's like saying radioactivity is the same as static electricity and flashlights because β rays are made of electrons and Gamma rays are made of photons.
Here is an interactive tool that shows you which seats are safe, which have a tendency, contested between two parties or contested between several parties.
https://inwebitrust.com/legislatives-2024/projection/You can click on certain scenarios to see if they are sufficient majorities.
>>1894615>We are in a climate crisis, which is why we should spend every dime in all energy sources that can replace co2 emitting sources efficientlyftfy. The idea we just have to put everything into a single magic bullet is retarded.
>right wing talking points>nuclear powerright wing usually not a fan of nuclear because its require so big investment and involve so much security and scrutiny it has to be public.
>Meanwhile there is still no solid plan to decommission nuke plants lets be real, its not that hard to tear down shit and shove the irradiated part with the rest of the waste
>to take care of most of the waste long termin france this kind of shit is actually pretty well run. And when you compare the actual dangerosity and quantity of nuclear waste and the step taken to handle it; with… pretty much every other waste, its kind of a joke of an argument.
>And if you care about kids getting poisoned don't look to close at uranium mines where they pump thousands of acres full of sulfuric acid are you implying rare earth and cobalt mining is easier on the kids ? yes, uranium mining, like most mining, is very polluting, but its such a minuscule scale compared to most things its again a pretty bad argument imo.
>In fifteen years, long before any new plants of an hypothetical nuclear plant program launched now would be built, the grid will almost be only renewables and storage, in short no more baseload, no more room for nuclearlol. lmao even. ok I dont think youre worth talking to. What storage even exist beside the limited hydro ? shit like hydrogen have tons of problems and pretty low efficiency.
>You people refuse to acknowledge how technologies and the economy are evolving no, you refuse to be connected to reality. No new power generation technology entirely replaced the previous ones. They didnt even slightly replace it, they were just added on top. The idea that a magic tech shift will solve all our problems is stupid. Use cases require different solutions, and nuclear, like wind solar or hydro are all useful tools.
>you are useful idiots for the oil industry I'd say you are, because for the foreseeable future, solar only with no nuclear means coal and gas, as seen in germany.
>nuclear scamwhat the fuck, in france we had the cheapest AND cleanest energy for decades thanks to nuclear. Neolibs and the retarded green fucked with it, but its still one of the best investment you can do on energy.
>Battery tech is therenot for any large, long term storage, aka the important part
>baseload is going away no
>>1894863>a single magic bulletI fail to see how a decentralized grid made of many means of producing variable renewables with various means of storage is magic bullet. Nuclear proponents however often present it as such, I'm not saying we should close the existing plants now, but building new ones is stupid because you don't want to replace CO2 emitting sources in 15 years, you want to do it now.
>right wing Sorry to inform you but across Europe the right wing is often the biggest support of nuclear, AFD for example. Partly because it's a delaying tactic against the woke windmills. The far left in France rejects it by the way
>its not that hard to tear down shit and shove the irradiated part with the rest of the wasteYou should inform the authorities, because as of now it takes at least 15 years to dismantle a facility and for France it will cost hundreds of billions. In the UK Sellafield will cost 121 billion quids. Hand waving problems doesn't make them go away sadly
>are you implying rare earth and cobalt mining is easier on the kids ? yes, uranium mining, like most mining, is very polluting, but its such a minuscule scale compared to most things its again a pretty bad argument imo.Uranium mining is more polluting than most mining, good deposits also ran out so we have to destroy absolutely enormous amount of land to get small amounts of it and it just gets worse from there, it's also shrouded in secrecy so it's harder to see people and ecosystems die. The massive amount of renewables we are building are deleting coal mining and hydrocarbon exploitation now by the way, not in 15 years.
>What storage even exist beside the limited hydro ? shit like hydrogen have tons of problems and pretty low efficiency.Hydrogen is a meme, battery parks are not, and you can even build sodium ones now if you think lithium is scary. See picrel for what is happening in California, I'm sure China will be even more impressive in a few years.
>refuse to be connected to reality. No new power generation technology entirely replaced the previous ones. They didnt even slightly replace it, they were just added on topBack to you. First you're wrong because renewables entirely replaced nuclear in Germany by now, and secondly the growth of renewables is so big that there is absolutely no way consumption could follow suit past some point even though we all get EVs and went back to using old light bulbs. See picrel. Nuclear is not an useful tool, because it would be built, again in 15 years minimum when the grid will be almost fully renewables.
>its still one of the best investment you can do on energy.It's not because baseload is going away, see the california pic and learn what a duck curve is.
By the way, the nuclear industry serves also to make weapons for what is currently an imperialist country, just so you know in which camp you are ;)
>>1894887I'll watch the highlights later
>>1894887Dayum, they are wacking Attal left and right, though not too difficult since the current gov record is a total disaster.
>>1894930I don't understand French well but Le Pen's nephew is fumbling. Keeps interrupting and stuttering. Boy stfu and looks presentable.
>>1894934It's looking like it's gonna be mostly a left vs fascist match for once and the media and governent have been hard at work attacking the left in increasingly hysterical terms.
what is your prediction that RN somehow actually manages to win the election?
Apparently Bradella said something about retirement at 66 years old. Everyone on twitter is shitting on him for that line.
>>1894942Who the fuck knows at this point but it's not looking good. Macron's party might well be kingmakers in the second round and they're spiteful as hell.
>>1894943Not only 66 years, but that you have to do 42 years of work to have access to retirement : if you start working at 24 (after university) then it's 66, if you start at 30 then it's 72
>>1894955Lmao that is kinda arbitrary… What a stupid thing to say.
https://x.com/PopulismUpdates/status/1805660159441780763Melenchon would have been a good shitposter if he was born in the internet age.
>>1894961Meanwhile Jawad, the guy who hosted ISIS guys at his home, is now free and trending on Tiktok doing the NPC :
https://www.tiktok.com/@la.bande.de.tiktok/video/7313285978070813984?lang=fr
>>1894924>renewables entirely replaced nuclear in Germany by nowReminder that liquid gas was added to the list of renewable energy,so that's not surprising.
>>1894887I guess my only real criticism of Bompard is he should have emoted more. When Attal and Bardella were arguing, he should have been giving a cringe or smug face. He seems too aloof.
>>1895235He has a doctor in mathematics and the journalists tried to pull the average (non-median) wage trick on him when it came to the income increases for French people, lmao.
>>1894968On vit dans une saucisse
>>1894924we should take this to another thread
>decentralized grid by definition, the electrical grid cant be decentralized, unless you install 10x what you need everywhere.
>various means of storage so I see you propose mass battery (which, with hydro, constitute pretty much the entirety of "various"). Somehow I dont think building tons of battery is gonna be any cleaner on the mining front than uranium. But I will recognize the battery array development is far greater than I thought, and it seems to certainly be an important part of renewable development, and the sodium battery has huge potential. The idea its "cleaner" than nuclear seems ridiculous though, in term of non co2 pollution (and even in co2), cause you still have to mine, produce and replace them alongside the renewable, and again at a pretty massive scale compared to anything nuclear. And as our energy needs are unlikely to stop rising soon, we definitely should keep building nuclear plants right now.
>the right wing is often the biggest support of nuclearnow that people take climate change seriously a bit, but it was not before, and the german decision to stop nuclear was done by the alliance of the right and greens. In france similarly right wing libs like macron at first allied with the green on getting out of nuclear.
>The far left in France rejects it by the waynot really, unless you consider the lib green "far left". PCF, PRCF are explicitly pro nuclear, LO is for it, NPA is against it. The socdem (and not far left) LFI is ambiguous but its green wing against, although they basically avoid the issue now
>Hand waving problems the thing is even with the big tear down cost included, its still a better long term investment
>is more polluting than most miningbut at a significantly lesser scale, while battery arrays will require a massive one
>so we have to destroy absolutely enormous amount of land to get small amounts of it lol thats even worse for rare earths, lithium and such
>it's also shrouded in secrecy so it's harder to see people and ecosystems dienot anymore than any other mining project afaik
>The massive amount of renewables we are building are deleting coal mining and hydrocarbon exploitation yeah not quite anywhere close to it yet, it hasnt even started diminishing
>battery parks yeah as said Im impressed by the development, its very good
>no way consumption could follow suit past some point even though we all get EVs and went back to using old light bulbsBig doubt about that. EV alone will be massive, and its easier to grow fast early on.
>see the california pic yeah, not everyone get as much sun as california, and it doesnt tell much about the price.
>By the way, the nuclear industry serves also to make weapons for what is currently an imperialist countryit also serve to make various products used in science and medicine, and also make weapons for anti imperialist countries
you didnt convince me we should stop building nuclear plants, but you did convince me the battery arrays can solve much of renewables problems on the grid. The annoying part is that battery arrays are also the perfect private investment when there is an electricity market, cause you can buy low and sell high consistently, effectively stealing the value of the (subsidized) producers for the benefit of private interest, but well, thats just standard neolib, at least for once porky actually build useful shit in the process.
>>1894615>Battery tech is thereno its not, the battery tech not being there is precisely what kills intermittent renewables for base load
>renewable tech is theresort of, but in truth its overfocused on wind and solar. there's a massive lack of focus on non intermittent renewables because there is STILL not enough money for general r&d of renewables. people fall for the intermittent meme, and then push lies like "base load is going away" which no it is not
>recycling tech is therebut not economically viable for porky, hence the waste gets dumped into africa
>baseload is going awaydead wrong and at odds with reality lmao
i dunno who sells you morons on this "no more base load" meme, but i recommend to look into where we actually are with batteries, because this is where it all falls apart. it is so bad that people see storing wind underground for later as a better option, or just using nat gas plants to provide base load. base load is not going away, unless you plan to have rolling blackouts in the grid as a matter of course.
<A common myth is that because some types of renewable energy do not provide baseload power, they require an equivalent amount of backup power provided by fossil fuel plants. However, this is simply untrue. As wind production fluctuates, it can be supplemented if necessary by a form of baseload power which can start up or whose output can be changed in a relatively short period of time. Hydroelectric and natural gas plants are common choices for this type of reserve power (AWEA 2008). Although a fossil fuel, combustion of natural gas emits only 45% as much carbon dioxide as combustion of coal, and hydroelectric is of course a very low-carbon energy source.
>>1894924>First you're wrong because renewables entirely replaced nuclear in Germany by nowhttps://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-04-30/germany-set-to-pay-more-coal-plants-to-prevent-blackouts lol
<Germany Set to Pay More Coal Plants to Prevent Blackouts<Reserve plant capacity needs to double by 2026, regulator says<Power stations on standby are mostly coal-, gas-fired plantscopium
>It's not because baseload is going away, see the california pic and learn what a duck curve is.this myth is exactly what makes the green left look fucking stupid "oh no the demand isnt constant throughout the day, base load debunked". your statement makes no sense.
look at your own chart and see how the batteries are going literally into matching the peak demand, while night time is fucked had it not been for the imported, gas and nuclear power which does what? provides most of the base load after dusk and before dawn. just get it over with and say that you society to not have power at night like you want to
<inb4 batterieshttps://www.technologyreview.com/2018/07/27/141282/the-25-trillion-reason-we-cant-rely-on-batteries-to-clean-up-the-grid/>These batteries are far too expensive and don’t last nearly long enough, limiting the role they can play on the grid, experts say. If we plan to rely on them for massive amounts of storage as more renewables come online—rather than turning to a broader mix of low-carbon sources like nuclear and natural gas with carbon capture technology—we could be headed down a dangerously unaffordable path.
>>1895725>we should take this to another threadI'm the OP of the last climate threads and I used them to thoroughly criticize nuclear energy, maybe I'll answer to you there, you're fine even if we disagree but I'm not wasting time debating the other bad faith idiots and oil shills.
To get back to France PRCF is a meme party of twenty old Stalinist idealists who are completely out of touch with the masses, not much is going trough their heads, their reasoning must probably be that the USSR built nuclear in the 50s so it must be good. I didn't know LO was for but it has long been also an irrelevant trotskyist cult happy to make half a percent. NPA is a fragmented group of trotksyists that generally are against nuclear but I'm sure you could find people for. LFI, which is the electoral bulk of the far left defends a 100% renewables policy however, it's not ambiguous at all. They had to shut up about this to make the NFP work with the more liberal and centrist left which is for nuclear like PCF and PS. Damn it hurts a bit to write that the communist party is to the right of the LFI.
Too many jews in france
>>1896692Ikr? When I went it was just africans selling drugs and jews rubbing their hands on the sidewalk which was covered in cigarette butts.
>>1896500>This ceyronJesus Christ. Well, Bardella had a short blunder when it came to retirement. Attal was constantly on the defensive. Nothing spectacular but NFP just hit 30% again in the most recent poll.
>>1896818
Probably has to do with the constant media barrage that paints him as an evil unhinged man
>>1896692>>1896818Bait and samefag
>>1896841Communists should only care about spreading propaganda about the revolutionary program without losing their class independence during an election in a bourgeois democracy to rely on their strengths instead of being afraid of class struggles. Communists must be totally against the capitalist imperialism of their nations to create solidarity with the workers of the world. For this to be achieved, economic sovereignty and self-sufficiency must be prioritized above all else, including the environment that the bourgeoisie uses to increase the exploitation of Third World countries by extracting raw materials through multinational mining companies, accelerating the financialization of the world economy.
All energy production must be nationalized and must not depend on any foreign trade so as not to encourage imperialism, the bourgeois state cannot be reformed, therefore one must not be afraid of reactionaries being used to frighten the masses into organizing a revolutionary opposition of the workers. A country can only have a sustainable economy after having a socialist and sovereign economy without exporting pollution to other countries and not before.
Here is the position of Marx and Engels on participation in a bourgeois election:
<Complete abstention from political action is impossible. The abstentionist press participates in politics every day. It is only a question of how one does it, and of what politics one engages in. For the rest, to us abstention is impossible. The working-class party functions as a political party in most countries by now, and it is not for us to ruin it by preaching abstention. Living experience, the political oppression of the existing governments compels the workers to occupy themselves with politics whether they like it or not, be it for political or for social goals. To preach abstention to them is to throw them into the embrace of bourgeois politics. The morning after the Paris Commune, which has made proletarian political action an order of the day, abstention is entirely out of the question.
<We want the abolition of classes. What is the means of achieving it? The only means is political domination of the proletariat. For all this, now that it is acknowledged by one and all, we are told not to meddle with politics. The abstentionists say they are revolutionaries, even revolutionaries par excellence. Yet revolution is a supreme political act and those who want revolution must also want the means of achieving it, that is, political action, which prepares the ground for revolution and provides the workers with the revolutionary training without which they are sure to become the dupes of the Favres and Pyats the morning after the battle. However, our politics must be working-class politics. The workers' party must never be the tagtail of any bourgeois party; it must be independent and have its goal and its own policy.
<The political freedoms, the right of assembly and association, and the freedom of the press — those are our weapons. Are we to sit back and abstain while somebody tries to rob us of them? It is said that a political act on our part implies that we accept the exiting state of affairs. On the contrary, so long as this state of affairs offers us the means of protesting against it, our use of these means does not signify that we recognise the prevailing order.
<Karl Marx and Frederick Engels, "Apropos Of Working-Class Political Action".https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1871/09/21.htm
<Even where there is no prospect of achieving their election the workers must put up their own candidates to preserve their independence, to gauge their own strength and to bring their revolutionary position and party standpoint to public attention. They must not be led astray by the empty phrases of the democrats, who will maintain that the workers’ candidates will split the democratic party and offer the forces of reaction the chance of victory. All such talk means, in the final analysis, that the proletariat is to be swindled. The progress which the proletarian party will make by operating independently in this way is infinitely more important than the disadvantages resulting from the presence of a few reactionaries in the representative body.
<Karl Marx and Frederick Engels , "Address of the Central Committee to the Communist League"https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/communist-league/1850-ad1.htm
This debate with the succdem is representing the NFP is a bit more boring tbh.
>>1896841> It's all those 1930s "popular fronts" were shit, they lost and we all know all the rest.Popular fronts still win in modern times, or get at least 1/3 of the votes. More than any kautkysit revisionist party ever could do.
Once, the peoples finnish democratic league could get up to 40 seats in parliamentary elections in the 80s, but after their merge into the "Left Alliance", a social democratic "eco socialist party", in 1991, they never got more than 20 seats into parliament. A big failure to the "united front method"
But lets look at the Great Patriotic Pole, the GPPSB of Venezuela in 2012. The united front was able to gather 55% of the votes, uniting a bunch of left wing parties, making it so the chavist socialist party could remain in power until this very day. Without the popular front, Bolsonaro and its lackeys would be in Brasilia right now, but that didn't happen. Now, we have the workers party in Brasil again, and everything is going extremely well, almost an absolute miracle.
Lets look at the Grand Alliance of bangladesh. After entering the coalition government, the number of votes they receive increased from a little more than 40 thousand votes in 2001, to an continuous increase to more than 600 thousand votes in 2018. Every year the party got more popular and was able to elect more people into government.
I could go on and on, but united fronts can work, and worked in the past. Illegalism can work too, but that is a discussion to another day.
Not sure why France is getting bashed so much, at least in the earliest posts. Jacobinism was basically synonymous with leftism.
>>1899584But at most popular fronts aspire to social democracy. When some members of the popular front are in support on the condition that status quo is the same, capitalism keeps going and worker militias can't be formed, there is a problem.
>>1899571Mélenchon talking about CIA, American influence in Europe…and then promising full support to Ukraine, "pushing Russia out of Ukraine" and implying he support ethnic cleansing of Russians in Ukraine. I hate trots.
Dany&Raz are also two massive radlibs that don't give a shit about workers, they hate jacobinism, communism and love to use "red-brown" for everyone left of them
Looks like NFP is sweeping the outer territories. Hope that it helps the balance.
Are leftcoms seething over the formation of a popular front?
>>1900251They are calling it out for what it is, a bourgeois alliance that will never be able to surmount the contradictions of capitalism and shoot the workers if push came to shove
https://lundi.am/Du-RN-du-Nouveau-Front-Populaire-et-de-la-clarification-d-un-clivage-historiqueThe only people that will seethe is the retards who set themselves up for disappointment by thinking popular fronts are anything other than class collaboration bullshit. That said I'll still vote for them cause they'll probably murder slightly less brown people.
>>1900288>bourgeois alliance Says who?
>>1900288Yea I mean it is probably won't dismantle capitalism but it will accelerate its contradictions. A NFP earnestly trying to fix the Republic and failing to do so will heighten class contradictions and struggle.
>>1900293The only party member of it that is remotely proletarian is a trot one named the NPA-B, and it's called the NPA-B because the people advocating for revolution instead of reform left to make the NPA-C. Everyone else are porky dickriders unless you're delusional enough to think the IMT has any influence in LFI.
>>1900297>remotely proletarian is a trot one named the NPA-BHa, any not PCF?
>>1900295Yeah the capitalists won't dismantle capitalism, they is no probably about it. You really can't predict with any accuracy what will happen or not depending on the results of those elections, France a history the "left" taking power and ushering OCDE neolib reforms even faster cause people don't immediately take the street like when the right is in power, so basically the opposite of what you hope for. Thing will be moving fast in the next few years regardless of the result that's for sure.
But outside of all of that I am legitimately concern for me and my family if the far right gets the government because I have been involved with social movements long and hard enough that my name is known and I'm on some fascist fucks lists…
>>1900298If you stretch it you could say the PCF is socdem. Roussel wants to stay in NATO.
>>1900301> France a history the "left" taking power and ushering OCDE neolib reforms even faster cause people don't immediately take the street like when the right is in power, so basically the opposite of what you hope for.I disagree that the NFP won't be a threat to the capitalists since the mainstream media is berating LFI to the point of extreme slander ala
>>1896500. We will just have to wait and see if the NFP does what it says it wants to do.
>>1900298they're Pro-EU Atlanticists,and are even less concerned with workers than even the bourgeois unions.
Is this the unofficial election thread?
>>1900309Yea it kinda is since the european election. Let's keep all election talk here.
Btw I heard the participation rate is higher than expected. Hope the young votes for the NFP.
>>1900303The top French capitalists who control the bulk of mainstream media don't want to pay more taxes or have some of their assets bought by the state, they don't want to loose a couple percentages of profit, simple as, that's why they don't want the "left" to win and slander Melenchon. They're certainly not fighting against communists (who would seize everything they have by the way).
>>1900313Yes which is why i think the top French capitalists know that the NFP will do all the economic reforms that they promise they will do.
>>1900314You did not explain where the anti capitalism is
Highest psrticipation rate in 40 years
So FN are fake nationalists and FP are fake socialists right?
>>1900251>>1899729>>1899584The impression I have gotten is that these French "lefties" only concern is to maintain immigration. (A necessary component of imperialism.)
>>1900317Yea I did not say that the NFP's programme is explicitly anti-capitalism, only that the capitalists is solely devoted to getting rid of them.
I guess I can use this general as Europol general. I have noticed an interesting trend in European politics, where the liberals will promote anti-democratic measures such as a strong judicary and bourgeoise press, where as the conservatives will oppose them, and even wish to roll back these institutions. The question then is, why? Are the conservatives intentionally trying to democratize society, or are they doing it by accident? Perhaps this is just a case of national bourgeoise vs international bourgeoise.
>>1900396Lolwat, conservatives have started South America-style warfare tactics recently like against the soc-dem-dem-soc coalition in Spain or the Green party in Germany.
>>1900397Could you elaborate a little? Perhaps the situation is different in different countries.
>>1900351Mass hysteria type post here
>>1900397Spain has a very reactionary magistrature due to the francoist legacy which they have been using to weaponize even more shamelessly recently to torpedo the current government and go against politcians of the popular front coalition, on a personal level, like the spouse of the prime minister or the catalan nationalists.
>>1889176Blanqui was bad because if you randomly try to start a rebellion against the state with nothing but you and your gang of intellectual friends, you're gonna die because you don't have any support from the people to draw strength from
The only good moments in leftism that france ever generated were the french revolution and Ho chi minh and Pol pot learning marxism there
>>1900396If anything the conservative are purposely wrecking democratic institutions and media for a managed democracy like Fidez and PiS. Are you fucking high?
Also the turnout is reaching historical highs. I don't think polling would make good predictions now…
What's the RN position on Ukraine?
Belgian TV has published first estimates, they are still banned in France until 8 pm local.:
Rassemblement national et alliés 34,5%
Nouveau Front Populaire 28,5%
Majorité Présidentielle 22,5%
Les Républicains, divers droite 10%
Extrême gauche 1,2%
Reconquête ! 0,5%
Divers 2,8%
https://www.rtbf.be/article/france-le-taux-de-participation-en-nette-hause-aux-legislatives-par-rapport-a-2022-suivez-notre-direct-pour-ne-rien-rater-11397471
>>1900567what are their policies. how bad is it going to be.
Can I become desensitised to this now. I'm so tired of feeling grief every time the right wins by exploiting tribalism. Things will only stop getting worse when humanity has gone extinct.
NPF have announced they will withdraw their candidates in every single district where they came third.
>>1900585Is the king frog cooked?
>>1900608The entire country is.
>>1900607wait why? isn't it NPF vs RN now?
>>1900550Pretty likely now that the exit poll confirms the regular polling.
>>1900607The fearful liberal counter revolutionary inside of them spoke these words.
>>1900615It is the best way to minimize RN seats.
>>1900617…by giving them to the liberal center that are pushing Europe towards war and burger enslavement.
>>1900617They shouldn't do it unless Macron is offering a similar deal though
>>1900611According to liberation.fr/Ipsos
There now are 65-85 outright wins, 150-170 duels and 285-315 threeway splits.
>>1900523"Democratic" institutions like the judiciary are anti-democratic.
>>1900517>>1900485Interesting, because in Eastern- and Northern-Europe the conservatives hate the media and don't really control it. I wonder why is there a split. I guess it might just be historical happenstance.
>>1900611It's a parliamentary election so it varies depending where you are.
The rule is that if three parties obtain at least 12,5% of the potential voters (and not of the actual votes), it's a three-way election in the second round and the one who gets the biggest score wins. There's been an increase in participation today so these scenarios are more common.
So Mélenchon is saying the left's candidates need to drop out if they came in third in the first round to defeat the RN. We'll see if Macron returns the favor but given how he and his supporters have been calling LFI just as bad as the fascists it's very much possible he doesn't.
>>1900620All leftist parties have committed to withdraw their candidates by now in case of a third place. Republicans(center-right conservative) will not make such a commitment, MoDem (Ensemble/Macro-coaltion) said they will do so on a case-by-case basis.
>>1900623jesus christ, and how many of those threeways is NFP going to feed to Macron's coalition. What a bunch of cucks.
>>1900620yeah, they didn't even apparently make Ensemble promise that they would do the same.
Head of the French communist party has lost his seat outright.
>>1900555>>1900550>>1900527The RN are Republican tier cucks though?
>>1900628Wow, and he was the right's favorite leftist too, who'd have thought?
>>1900624I mean like the media and burecracy, not just the judiciary.
>>1900626The Macronists will never yield to the NFP, they would rather have the RN win
>>1900629Maybe, but the founders and many old-timers are outright fascists, and every top member of the party, including the young figurehead of the movement, Bardella, has ties to either White Nationalist groups, or the OAS, the pro-colonial Algeria terrorist group of the 60s.
>>1900628Him and Ruffin. Looks like the social conservative wing of the NFP is getting wrecked.
>>1900634>The Macronists will never yield to the NFP, they would rather have the RN winThey will likely yield to a few SocDem and Green candidates for alibi purposes and that's it.
>>1900635Almost like that whole concept is a dead end
I'm not trying to ragebait here, I'm saying this in good faith.
Last time I was in Paris I was shocked by the quantity of immigrants, and by the vast areas of the city which looked completely taken over by African culture, to the point where you would hardly recognize it as France. On the way to one of the suburbs, Saint Denis, there's a mile long stretch of outdoor stalls manned by Africans and Arabs selling fake knockoff clothing, and in the banlieues around the city there are so many immigrants that you have a hard time finding someone that's white.
I was hanging around the metro station for one of these suburbs with a communist group handing out pamphlets about Palestine and basically none of the immigrants were interested in anything we had to say, we only got attention from the few natives that remained. I have no idea where the working class natives of Paris live now. Did they all ascend to middle class, leaving the immigrants as a permanent underclass tasked with doing the dirty non glamorous jobs? Are there native working class districts?
The topic of immigration is a hard one to approach on the left but I feel like we're losing a lot by ignoring it. Le Pen won because people don't want to feel like they're being replaced, they don't want entire districts of their city to be occupied by people from entirely different cultures. This happening not only in France but throughout Europe : I think this is why the youth of Europe is becoming increasingly right wing, unlike in America. But this right wing is simply related to immigration and other cultural issues, since they seem very open to economical left wing ideas. Le Pen has to at least pay lip service to workerist policies to the point where she's flanking Macron from the left. Something similar is happening in my country as well, and also with Germany and the AfD.
Speaking of Germany, the BSW is a very interesting movement that's taken notice of this immigration crisis and taking the opportunity at hand. They're making sure that this anti immigration energy isn't taken up exclusively by porky to shore up more tax breaks and privatizations on the back of people who want to protect their national identity and culture. They're having very good results for now, which I believe speaks to the way people are feeling in Europe. In my opinion Melenchon fumbled by pivoting to being completely pro-immigrant, as his results tumbled when his open borders rethoric started being one of the main points of his campaign. If he kept a more neutral stance maybe the RN wouldn't have won these elections.
What do you guys think?
>>1900636You're right, I almost forgot about them, for me the NFP is just LFI considering how they're the only ones abiding to the agreements.
>>1900632Yeah, moderate "leftists" have been bitching about Mélenchon's radicality for a few years, saying that he can't be the head of a leftist movement because he is widely despised, saying that more moderate members of the left should take the lead. I'm so fucking glad they're getting their asses kicked, even if it means more seats for reactionaries. The French left needs to learns hat radicality is the only way forward.
>>1900634>The Macronists will never yield to the NFP, they would rather have the RN winNFP should have returned this favor.
>>1900644they already killed the entirety of Melenchon inner circle tho,even got his (potential) successor with a rape affair
>>1900642>Melenchon fumbled by pivoting to being completely pro-immigrant, as his results tumbled when his open borders rethoric started being one of the main points of his campaign. If he kept a more neutral stance maybe the RN wouldn't have won these elections.He was already getting slandered by the media on issues other than immigration like antisemitism and police reform. Making this about immigration is history revisionism
>>1900649You shouldn't worry about the party's future, they got rid of the more moderate elements with those elections. There new blood coming, I think they should be fine if they are allowed to continue existing.
A whole bunch of current government ministers got dumpstered.
>>1900650he wasn't getting slandered for having this or that position on police reform or israel, he's getting slandered for being a committed leftist, they're gonna attack him with anything that's convenient
>>1900653is there a hope of a swing in the next election or is short sighted race politics enough to hold people's attention
fwiw, someone made a simulation of how three way fights would turn out. It is possible that a republican front can deny RN seats
total left domination will lead to NFP majorityhttps://inwebitrust.com/legislatives-2024/projection/>>1900656Yes but that anon is trying to imply that immigration set him back. It really didn't, he was already set back by media slander and pearl clutching over the jews.
>>1900617Liberals : *ding ding* "Dear Trots, Radlibs, Socdems and Muslims, time to vote for us, you won't elect the far-right, right?"
Mélenchon and all the Leftist influencers actively support this while calling to support Ukraine and being muddy on the EU. Our Left is such a cucked one.
>>1900658>is there a hopeno
>>1900658People easily get fixated on race politics. However, there might be a window in 2027 if they manage to get their candidate in the second round of the presidential elections, as they will be facing a RN candidate.
>>1900660My point is, as a communist, the media is going to fuck you over anyway. If you think the only reason M lost is the media not letting him win, you might as well kill yourself now. That's why we have to work directly with the people to make sure they trust us more than the talking heads on TV, and that means making their issues our issues, even ones that are unsavory such as immigration. The media constantly slandered Le Pen as a fascist over her immigration stance too but that didn't set her back. The people know what they want and if someone's defending what they want they're gonna vote for them, even if the media tells them not to
>>1900642>Did they all ascend to middle class, leaving the immigrants as a permanent underclass tasked with doing the dirty non glamorous jobs?That's the idea. But obviously all of them can't "ascend". It's to channel worker anger into racialism and nationalism.
>>1900660Macron probably won't go for a republican front though, liberals hate leftists more than they hate fascists
>>1900664>The media constantly slandered Le Pen as a fascist over her immigration stance toolol
>>1900664>>1900664>and that means making their issues our issues, even ones that are unsavory such as immigration. Revision and tailism. What a joke.
>The media constantly slandered Le Pen as a fascist over her immigration stance tooNo they didn't. Bradella literally get so much positive coverage and barely spoke of any issue. Only the NFP spoke about policies. You want to know why the media adored RN? Look at pic related.
>>1900654You love to see it!
Give me an update. I am moving apartments for two eays straight and I haven't followed anything.
>>1900675Macron committed suicide and the left wing parties formed a bloc (again) to try to salvage the situation.
>>1900676Yes I know thay. But did Le Pen went today better than expected or worse? Same for the popular front. Are they going strong or meh?
>>1900678She performed about as expected, so did NFP, the polling was pretty accurate
>>1900681Alright 👍 thank you!
>>1900573Supercharged neoliberal hell with fascism as icing on the cake
>>1900678NFP did gain significantly more % compared to the previous iteration NUPES so it is not a total loss for the French Left. Tbh RN is buoyed by the cannibalizing of Reconquest and a right wing faction fo the Republicans.
>>1900687I guess our marginal hope is that RN doesn't fuck things up too badly and we see a swing afterwards.
Can someone give me a link to see departments where NPF came in 3rd?
>>1900692Considering how the RN guy performed in the debate, him being in power will be a huge shitshow. RN literally has no policies whatsoever.
>>1900685>Supercharged neoliberal hell with fascism as icing on the cakeIsn't that just Macron's centrist france plus a race towards a major hot war in Europe and nuclear exchange, that any sensible person should put all their energy and interest in stopping. All because Eurocrats and neolibs don't want to lose their self declared and one sided dick measuring contest with evil Putler and Xitler.
I'm gonna say it. The "threat of the far right" is a manufactured by the centrist propaganda that spooks the "left" (radlibs) into supporting the actual nazis at the center because they are played into being ultra fearful of habitual racists and those they consider anti-woke.
>>1900696you're saying Brown Man Bad ain't gonna cut it?
>>1900669Well, the good news is that by winning the RN ensured that they will disintegrate due to the contradiction of imperialism needing immigration.
>>1900711Meloni raised immigration levels to record heights and ended up extending her vote share. Don't see what you are seeing.
>>1899749>and then promising full support to Ukraine, "pushing Russia out of Ukraine" and implying he support ethnic cleansing of Russians in Ukraine.wait really? that's a bit dissapointing, i thought he was more neutral in that matter.
>>1900722He was but called him a Putin-supporte and LFI had to concede a lot during the NFP negotiations.
>>1900721why do rightoids suddenly stop caring about immigration when it happens under a right wing government?
>>1900730they always transform into the liberals that they said they would depose in many if not all things when getting into power. Still the "left" (radical larpy liberals) always falls for the "unite with the center"(the other liberals) to combat the far right and thus undermining and watering down their own positions and betray their support base (the people).
>>1900353It's not even implicitely anti-capitalist, you sound like a butthurt TMI fag, feel free to read Marx any day, hell go with Malatesta if you find that boring we'll see each other in the cortege de tete.
>>1900642It think you should shut the fuck up, your post should be deleted and your IP banned from this website. Rules 7 and 14
<President Emmanuel Macron urged a "wide-ranging rally behind republican and democratic" candidates for the second round, effectively guiding against both the far-right Nationaly Rally and the hard-left France Unbowed (LFI) party.
>His former Prime Minister, Edouard Philippe, explicity called on the candidates from his party to drop out if they were in third position and rally behind candidates from the centre-left to the centre-right, excluding the RN and LFI.
>>1900726Let's be honest, was anyone surprised by this? Anyone at all?
>>1900757I meant the Ensemble guy*
>>1900642>They're having very good results for nowlol
that métisse's party only managed to (mostly) kill off die linke. come back when people other than reactionary essies care about her party
>>1900757I think that there is another threshold that concerns the amount of votes you got as a share of all votes cast, you can have 50% of all votes cast but still fail to get that threshold which triggers a second round for example or the thing hasn't updated yet.
How fucking braindead are the macronists, are they really not going all in for the popular front when running against le pen?
Everyone will blame them for far right wins…
>>1900766>It's not that bad, Macron's party called to vote for the NFP Damn really? Did not expect that at all.
But yeah, the plus side of these times is we know who to punch.
>>1900771They are liberals. This whole stunt was originally intended to crush the left and shepherd them again into their arms with the far-right boogeyman before the presidential election but they didn't expect the socdems to make up with lfi this fast. However Macron's policies are virtually indistinguishable from what the RN is supporting anyway.
>>1900773They didn't, they said 'vote for the moderate members of the NFP that aren't LFI and belong to parties with republican values.'
>>1900771Macronists
are braindead, Macron however is very smart and extremely authoritarian, he didn't explain his plan but if you ask me I will tell you this over ambitious person is trying to stay president or to create a political climate where he can represent himself after much chaos to "save France" in 2032
>>1900773They did, the question being why, my answer being, they don't want a group too strong in the assembly, in short they are multipolarista in one country
>>1900784Ah shit is the RN gonna ally up with Ensemble to make a majority
>>1900805it's even less than that since not everybody votes
>>1900805are we supposed to ignore the far right gaining a foothold on a platform that consists entirely of Brown Man Bad?
>>1900810Yeah true but imagine if all those people were fighting for better skins in Plants vs. Zombies
>>1900819You are not supposed to do anything, you could goon you know, or you could be smart and recruit people who will fight with us. Choices.
>>1900757The threshold is 12.5% of eligable voters, not votes cast, so 12.5% of the vote is only enough if the constituency has 100% turnout.
>>1900828Ohhhh that makes sense! Thanks
And now I want to see a
Rassemblement pour un Nouveau Front National et Populaire. That would be a real disruptor for French and possibly European politics.
>>1900757It must be 12.5% of all registered vooooters in that constituency, not just 12.5% of those actually vooooting. And yes: les French like their rules uselessly complicated. Also: the third guy is a Macronist, ahem, I mean a IVPITERIAN. Another also: Gorizzutti. Fucking hell, this French elections are really our turf now: Bardella, Ciotti, Jimi Erotico, now there's basically a Macaroni in every constituency… We also have Alesi, Belmondo, Bonaparte, Mazzarino…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italians_in_France>About 5.5 million French nationals are of Italian origin, corresponding to about 8% of the total population.ALL YOUR FRANCE ARE BELONG TO US
>>1900780>Macronists are braindead, Macron however is very smart and extremely authoritarian, he didn't explain his plan but if you ask me I will tell you this over ambitious person is trying to stay president or to create a political climate where he can represent himself after much chaos to "save France" in 2032Wait a second, there's a presidential election in 2027 - or earlier, if IVPITER fucks off before the end of his term - and the constituion limits every president to two terms, and this is already Manu's second term. Now, maybe I'm wrong and that only means
consecutive terms, meaning he can sit out the next one, then be reelected later - what happens in Brazil - but I guess it means two terms in a lifetime and that's it.
Also, your scenario is just like a centrist-liberal version of
trust the plan and
patriots are in control… I would call it
Les Q and
les échecs en quatre dimensions.
>>1900791>Ah shit is the RN gonna ally up with Ensemble to make a majorityThe real risk is that NFP will forgo it's second place just to royally cuck to Enseble and let them take seats uncontested in the second round as they have announced. This just so they can pretend they did everything against Le pen and RN and maybe expect that they will get concessions from the liberal center after the elections (they won't).
Then RN will still win anyway and only thing changed was that Ensemble ate NFP seats because they let them. Macron will resign because French people were apparently too stupid for him and didn't give him a win. Then Le pen will win the presidency without much of a fight because Macron is out and left just fucked and demoralized it's voters by compromising. Then RN and Le Pen will rule with the help of Macronless center-right with the left humiliated, de-legitimized and scattered after betraying the French people and their voters just so that they could posture against Le Pen for their liberal friends. All for the entertainment of the status quo and without it changing nothing for them and France. They will just get same old same old with some immigrant bad token policies and worst pro-Eu talk tuned down, but with the same slow grind of Bureaucracies grinding France and Europe to dust in their controlling choke hold. The French left once again driven to the dirt because they themselves are counterrevolutionary liberals and/or let themselves be manipulated by fear of "their racist uncle types" running the country and get used by the center establishment to split the resistance against the center neoliberals who will keep fucking the nation in the ass under a different party logo and a new face.
This is the real horror scenario and IMO the most likely one.
>>1900700He literally flip flop daily on the campaign, it will get worse once he is in power.
>>1900771Some are already conceding to support NFP candidates on a personal level.
ngl i kinda want the far right to win so they pull a meloni and rightoids eat shit when they don't do anything about immigration besides some token measures
I hate France so much. Are there any French people here? I fucking hate you all. I despise you. Your existence causes me emotional distress on a daily basis.
I love France so much. Are there any French people here? I fucking love you all. I asore you. Your existence causes me emotional comfort on a daily basis.
>>1900493But he was a valuable part of the revolution, at the breakout of the Paris Commune he had sleeper agents everywhere that helped overthrow the government.
>>1900642>I was shocked by the quantity of immigrants, and by the vast areas of the city which looked completely taken over by African cultureback to pol retard
>and in the banlieues around the city there are so many immigrants those are mostly french people
>no idea where the working class natives of Paris in the banlieues, but you obviously didnt actually put a foot there, you're just spouting racist caricatures
>The topic of immigration is a hard one to approach on the left not really, its just the media circus detached from reality and blaming the left for not being racists. The only reason anyone care about it is the constant media brainwashing
>by ignoring itits not ignored, its just not accepting the hysterical racist framing of the right
>Le Pen won she didnt win shit yet. Most likely gonna be a locked assembly, unless they're stupid enough to work with macron and burn all their popularity
>people don't want to feel like they're being replaced, they don't want entire districts of their city to be occupied more polyp shit, literally spouting zemmour rethoric
>since they seem very open to economical left wing ideaslol, nope, absolutely not, they are even more pro porkie than macron, which is an impressive feat
>she's flanking Macron from the leftcompletely delusional
>Melenchon fumbled by pivoting to being completely pro-immigranthe isnt especially pro immigration, he just doesnt buy into the insane racist rhetoric
>open borders rethoric not a thing
>What do you guys think?that you're a retarded polyp that should be banned
the young people are largely left wing, but we're a country where old people are most of the voters
i am completely indifferent to France. Are there any French people here? I couldn't care either way. Your existence doesn't cross my mind and I would forget you existed other people didn't bring you up.
Lmao the PCF people on twitter are crying about how leftists happy that Roussel lost his seat. I think the narrative will be about how the Left forsakes the rural areas since they are dominating in the cities.
>>1900743>It's not even implicitely anti-capitalist,I did not said that either, stay mad
>>1901074Roussel was an asshole, so good riddance.
>>1901075>doubled it your graph shows them at around the same peak as die linke two years ago
>>1900730Rightists are typically deeply retarded individuals so while they may get into right wing politics via immigration their stupid retard monkey brain overpowers their beliefs with sunk cost fallacy and cognitive dissonance
>>1901074>the Left forsakes the rural areas since they are dominating in the citiesWill we get maximum keks and see the PCF whine about this?
>>1901084>the peak that lasted two weeks two years ago>>1901085Pushing Europe towards not being a US vassal is more important than having leftypol approved social democracy levels
>>1901091>Pushing Europe towards not being a US vassalOf coz the anti-immigrant anon reveals themselves to not be a socialist.
>>1901093where do you get the data?
>>1901114>true socialists want the correct level of social democracy in their american vassal statelol, fucking clown
>>1901118True socialists at least don't be SPD-tier economic policies like BSW.
>>1901119Socialism is when you let the denied asylum seeker backlog get really big, and when you have the entire planet in your country with failed asylum claims, it's communism
>>1901124Socialism is actually when you align with my geopolitical interests…
>>1901124BSW or any anti-immigrant parties aren't interested in reducing the asylum seeking, just look at Meloni. Nor does eliminating asylum seeking increase the likehood of establishing socialism. Danish social democrats are literally collasping for being too centrist.
>>1901126No it's when you accomplish nothing in Die Linke as your country gets overrun with NATO drones
>>1901127BSW or any anti-immigrant parties aren't interested in reducing the asylum seeking, just look at Meloni.
Pathetic and disingenuous argument
>Nor does eliminating asylum seeking increase the likehood of establishing socialism. Who is eliminating asylum seeking? Do you believe everyone should be able to live in Germany as long as they have filed an asylum claim at some point, even if it's denied?
>Danish social democrats are literally collasping for being too centrist.Yeah, collapsing to the left. I wonder what the Danish social democrats are known for, and why Denmark is the one country going to the left? Come on you can do it, do some analysis for me.
>>1901129>Pathetic and disingenuous argumentdisprove them then
>and why Denmark is the one country going to the left? it's not, actually. the conservative party will collapse soon in the uk and other leftist parties did well in scandinavia too besides denmark during the eu elections
BSW is actually GOOD.
No, I won't elaborate
I'm glad die Linke is dying
>9% of people that voted for melenchon in 2022 voted for the RN
why
>>1901156oh
and composition of the electorate, i guess
thoughts? surprises?
honestly, considering how much demoralization articles there were about how the far right was taking over the youth we had the past months i was worried but it's not as bad i thought it would be.
interestingly, there's no massive gender divide yet when it comes to politics in france like there is in other euro countries
>>1901161>>1901156How did you reach that conclusion (9%)?
>>1900642>But this right wing […] seem very open to economical left wing ideas.meds
But seriously,
post chin
>>1901129>Pathetic and disingenuous argumentNot an argument
>Who is eliminating asylum seeking? Do you believe everyone should be able to live in Germany as long as they have filed an asylum claim at some point, even if it's denied?You are. As for the asylum seekers, it is up to the State, but immigration that used to hamper workers right isn’t from the asylum seekers anyway.
>I wonder what the Danish social democrats are known for, and why Denmark is the one country going to the left?Bitch are you for real? Sweden and Finland are also seeing a major comeback for the Left, despite the succdems not embracing anti-immigration rhetoric as hard as the danish. You are fucking delusional.
>>1901161Interesting to see the NPF has the highest in terms of people who made up their mind. Honestly if the campaign period was longer and the debate more often, RN would be in a downturn.
Also wild to see only 68% of PCF voted for the NPF…
>>1901187*in the last few days
Let me guess. Cuck liberals will form majority with fascoids against far left.
>>1901192Idk about the voters but a lot of the liberal and third place candidates are giving up to let NPF win and vice versa.
>>1901161>upper class voted for the socialists while workers voted for le ebil fascists Lol
>>1901257it seems to me that the French capitalist and financier class wants to go back to pre-Macron socialist France…
>>1901257The 'Disadvatged' voting 54% for National Rally is the funniest one. French leftoids couldn't even appeal to their supposed base.
>>1901262Not really, the actual capitalists made a lot of noise the previous weeks that they consider even the mild program of the NFP unacceptable.
The "upper class" that supports the NFP isn't that bougie, it's PMC and such. Probably correlated to education level.
Still a disaster of course, but nothing really new in French politics. The working class overwhelmingly doesn't vote or vote far right.
>>1901257Repeating that the working class is racist instead of trying to convince a bigger electoral base isn't a good electoral strategy, who could have predicted that?
>>1901269I think a lot of the french working class are racist though.
>>1901257There is nothing new about workers being blinded by idpol. What is strange is bourgeoisie voting for socdem that would raise taxes and regulate their businesses.
>>1901277Immigration isn't an idpol issue it's an economic one.
Tbf I don't know how "upper class" is determined. Is it self reported. Either way, in terms of actual income it isn't that bad. Also it should be taken into account that ruralites have lower costs of living because they are more likely to own a home, so right-wing voters might have more disposable income at the end of the day.
>>1901257The correlation isn’t even strong tbh. NFP has a very cross sectional representation in those metrics. It is only like Education that massively defines political leanings.
>>1901283Education, age and religion are the biggest predictor of NFP voters.
>>1901283Even no correlation with income is bad because they are the only ones with a left-wing economic policy, so there should be a very clear negative correlation with wealth
>>1901248Yeah, that sure never happened before in history, you fucking retard
>>1901286Sure it does shows signs of class dealignment in politics, but the idea of cavalier gauche is not on the table.
Radlibs are more likely to pivot to class consciousness than social conservatives or radcons. is my biggest takeaway.
>>1901286If the NFP had a strong stance on immigration they would easily be gaining 70-80% of the working class vote. Instead they chose to continue the neolib policies that favour the upper classes, hence why their voter demographics are so fucked.
>>1901286There is a slight negative correlation in wealth in
>>1901282 35% to 26% from poorest to richest.
>>1901292The correlation is barely higher than that of RN (9% compared to 6%).
>>1901295So what? That anon is still wrong about wealth having no correlation.
>>1901297For a socialist political alliance that is supposed to be representing the lower classes, only getting a 9% higher vote share amongst the desperately poor compared to the excessively rich is disastrous.
>>1901298Spare me your hysterical tailism. NFP’s economic policies does indeed has massive wealth redistribution programs for the poor. It is on the later to choose wisely and suffer/benefit from their decisions.
>>1901301>NFP’s economic policies does indeed has massive wealth redistribution programs for the poorThen why aren't the poor voting for them? And where were these 'massive wealth redistribution programs' the last time the socialists were in power?
>>1901305People vote against their class interests all the time. Especially when all the mainstream media owned by right wing billionaires slanders LFI day in and day out. Hell as that anon said
>>1901299 said, the anti-immigration/woke leftists got fucking rekt last night. Positioning on social issues wouldn’t change the media coverage of you.
>And where were these 'massive wealth redistribution programs' the last time the socialists were in power?Last time that happened was Mitterrand.
>>1901299 (c'est moi)
Il faut que la gauche française se débarasse à la fois des pitres Anti-Woke-Populo car c'est juste une droite éco+ dans la tête des gens qui voteront donc pour la vraie droite, et aussi se déléster des cuistres Décolonial-Spé-Bandeur-de-Cité comme Boyard portés au firmament par la clique Dany et Raz qui pue le shit froid et la 86. On a un problème d'image, tiraillé entre des mecs qui font un LARP Prolix et ceux qui se croient encore être des punk queer des années 90, c'est deux lignes qui puent la défaite. Mélenchon aussi devient un probleme avec tout le respect que j'ai pour ce qu'il a entretenu, mais ça devient un homme providentiel gênant, si il claque demain la gauche est foutue il faut penser à sa succession.
Il nous faut plus de bureaucrate technocrate en costume comme Bompart/Quatennens/Glucksmann/Ségolène/Hollande, en terme d'image je veux dire, leur programme doit rester celui du NFP voir aller plus loin.
>>1901305>Then why aren't the poor voting for them?White poor you mean? It's because they're more concerned about insecurity and sticking it to the muslims, in their head RN is still an authright vanguard party and not just a standard anti-racist neolib technocrat party.
As for the non-white poors, they do vote left. But poor and working class people of all race don't vote this much in France.
There is no path forward for the left in Europe, doesn't matter if you change the people or the policies or the rhetoric.
C'est fini.
>>1901318There's no path for the far-right either THOUGH.
Everything has been neutered into right-neolib VS left-neolib now. All these 'dangerous far-right populist" are just the slimy Tories dressed as the far-righters from the past until provent otherwise.
The situation is bad because nothing happen and nothing is gonna chance for a while now.
>>1901290> if the left was more right wing they would totes win you guys, this time it'll work trust me>>1901299J'avoue que je prends quand même un plaisir la, Roussel avec ses saucisses m'énervé trop. La gauche antiwoke est un poids mort de chez mort, il y a que des vieux à la con qui veux ça.
<La ministre Dominique Faure refuse le barrage. Arrivée troisième en Haute-Garonne, la ministre Dominique Faure refuse de se désister. Le «front républicain», ce n’est pas pour elle. Comme plusieurs de ses collègues et contrairement aux consignes du Premier ministre Gabriel Attal, la ministre déléguée chargée des Collectivités territoriales et de la Ruralité a annoncé ce lundi sa décision de se maintenir dans la dixième circonscription de Haute-Garonne, où elle est pourtant arrivée troisième, devancée par le PS et le RN. A l’issue du premier tour, le candidat du Nouveau Front populaire, Jacques Oberti, a obtenu 36,24 % des suffrages, contre 30,37 % pour la candidate RN Caroline Falgas-Colomina et 28,99 % pour la ministre, députée sortante et issue du Parti radical. «J’ai 22 800 électeurs qui ont voté pour et je vois mal comment je leur donnerais comme seul choix de voter RN ou LFI», a justifié Dominique Faure, estimant que le candidat socialiste «est lié par une alliance avec LFI
>Minister Dominique Faure refuses the cordon. Arriving third in Haute-Garonne, Minister Dominique Faure refuses to withdraw. The “republican front” is not for her. Like several of her colleagues and contrary to the instructions of Prime Minister Gabriel Attal, the Minister in charge of Local Authorities and Rural Affairs announced this Monday her decision to remain in the tenth constituency of Haute-Garonne, where she nevertheless came third , preceded by the PS and the RN. At the end of the first round, the candidate of the New Popular Front, Jacques Oberti, obtained 36.24% of the votes, against 30.37% for the RN candidate Caroline Falgas-Colomina and 28.99% for the minister, outgoing MP and from the Radical Party. “I have 22,800 voters who voted for and I find it difficult to see how I would give them the only choice of voting RN or LFI,” justified Dominique Faure, estimating that the socialist candidate “is linked by an alliance with LFI" (liberation.fr)
Lmao, nice one. Scratch a liberal an a fascist bleeds. So much for the republican front.
>>1901316>Il nous faut plus de bureaucrate technocrate en costume comme Bompart/Quatennens/Glucksmann/Ségolène/Hollande, en terme d'image je veux dire, leur programme doit rester celui du NFP voir aller plus loin.Les énarques, c'es précisément le genre de personnages qui sont les plus susceptibles de caviarder un tel programme si ils obtiennent la moindre influence au sein du mouvement.
>>1901352
You can have immigration without fucking over your population
So is Macron still a lib? I see people accusing him of being socially right-wing, but it was only just a few months ago he made abortion a constitutional right
>>1901355He just gave into the anti transexual hysteria and accused the left of wanting to let 100 billions africans in.
That guy whole strategy was to replicate the burger progressive/conservative idpol brainrot and occupy the "progressive" role, but since it dodn't pay off in the ballots, he just ran after the right and far right.
>>1901367>RN and Ensemble forming a union still isn't enough to make up 50% for a coaltionLol
>>1901377They could probably get random misc rightiods in
>>1901381Macron is not going to accept, for the longest of times he has refused any formal allience with the right only compromising on certain issues, he may be neoliberal scum but he's also very narcissistic.
>>1901343
>Because they don't tax the rich. They say they want, but at the end they are politicians and need the press to be on their side.
NFP wants to tax the rich and is constantly attacked by the press everyday…
>>1901393How can this
>>1896500 be considered mild? And while I do agree the rich will try to dodge taxes at best as they can, my point is that NFP does try to tax specifically them and their media backlash affirms that they might or could do it if they are in power
>>1901348Oui c'est ce qui rend notre position tendue. Soit perdre soit risquer de faire une Hollande 2.0…
On a pas les socdem sud-américains ou est-asiatiques malheureusement.
>>1901352It's true but there's way to achieve anti-immigration politics and i don't know if any party including the far-right can do it.
When we're talking about such numbers it's not a bunch of armed coast guards and more policement that's gonna do any difference it's about global mass movements of people, ressources and currencies. You need to adress the root not just say "uhh let me clear we must do TND now!" because that's all far-right parties and big tent populism have been doing since the 1980s. All the far-right and "populist parties" elected in Europe over the last 20 years did fuck all to stop mass immigration from the global south for a reason: they just can't, or they can't while not making the country collapse. Most of that mass immigration is legal, to add more to the problem.
It's definitely possible to stop mass immigration but it won't be achieved by voting the correct guy in.
What we're seeing with those far-righters isnt even a attempt at stopping mass immigration or reemigrating already settled foreigners since they have no clear program for that, it's about stripping foreigners of their labor rights/citizenship privileges while keeping them around to perform cheap labour with the menaces of sending them back if they arent performant and docile enough.
>>1901355He's just Jvpiter, he don't believe in anything but keeping power at all coast like
>>1901362 said.
>>1901393>That's mild. Even the RN get worse, and it's mild against them too. I don't know. The media have been going pretty hard on them over the last 6 month. Many normies believes LFI are antisemites who wants to kill jews now.
>>1901133>disprove them then <disprove this unfalsifiable statement>the conservative party will collapse soon in the uk and other leftist parties Wew lad. Weren't you just having a cry about lack of social democracy? Now you're supporting fucking Starmer lmao. Were you jumping up and down with joy when Macron won by any chance?
>>1901185>Not an argument"ummm BSW is literally meloni the megahitler who loves immigrants, so.. yikes!" is not an argument, stop being silly
>You are. As for the asylum seekers, it is up to the State, but immigration that used to hamper workers right isn’t from the asylum seekers anyway.No dummy the whole problem and BSW's stance is Germany doesn't process asylum seekers at a sensible speed and then doesn't deport them back to the well known warzone of Morocco or wherever when they fail
>muh scandinavia (reply to both)<finland moving around a few % points is srs bsns<sweden electing based nato socdems is srs bsns<also doubling the far left vote to 10% in the EU elections is srs bsns (but it doesn't count when BSW does this in the federal election from nothing in a few months)Scandinavia is a meme and bragging that you're fighting the powerful far right in a country where they never even used to exist (guess what policy made them powerful) is just as much of a meme
>>1901180look at the 4th row in the graph
>>1901437This must be what happens to racist femboys when they age out
>>1901437he looks like a dreamworks movie villain.
>>1901346there better not NFP candidates stepping down for dirty self-centered third placed centrist scum!
>>1901437Macron, Attal, Bardella and most of the LFI drones are gay. But where are the lesbians?
>>1901458All evidence points towards France being for the fellas
>>1901417>ummm BSW is literally meloni the megahitler who loves immigrants, so.. yikes!" is not an argument, stop being sillyStrawmanning isn’t an argument either
>No dummy the whole problem and BSW's stance is Germany doesn't process asylum seekers at a sensible speed and then doesn't deport them back to the well known warzone of Morocco or wherever when they failOkay? Still a bunch of succdems worse than Linke
>Scandinavia is a meme and bragging that you're fighting the powerful far right in a country where they never even used to exist You can’t brag about the danish social democrats being based and then throw your hands up and say everything doesn’t matter when you are forced to look at the big picture. Danish social Democrats’ anti-immigration policies isn’t what helping the left wing parties rise in Scandinavia no matter how hard you cope.
>>1901481>You can’t brag about the danish social democratsYou're the one that brought them up you slimy shitlib.
>>1901458They are grillpilled.
>>1901489Yea to counter the point that pursuing anti-immigration policies will win votes since it didn’t for the danish social democrats. Learn to read and understand arguments and how examples are made to support it.
>>1901413
>He said the J word. You don't say the J word. That's an unspoken rule in France.
wow
>>1901493Isn't that more a matter of sectarianism within the parties of the NFP?
>>1901500>only place without a far right presence and going left is the place without mass immigration>this is proof people don't care about immigrationKill yourself you fucking retard
>>1901413
It can if you tax them where it hurts. I read their plan to revise old taxes that will punish the rich even if they move their assets out of France. It seems feasible, at least to the French economists.
>>1901507Lmao what? Scandinavia has had a major far right wing presence that has been whining about immigration. If anything they were the pioneers of this shit.
>>1901493There are 2 LFI MPs out of 5 that got purged by Melenchon originally that made it to the second round and a few PS people that refused to yield for designated LFI candidates.
Btw, dissident candidates aren't members of parties that didn't join the NFP agreement, that's 'misc. left'. Dissident candidates are formal members of parties that joined the NFP that run in violation of the agreement and stay in the race competing against the official NFP candidate or whatever alliance. Usually those get expelled from their respective party for being disloyal and join some other faction but sometimes they worm their way back, whatever is more politically expedient.
>>1901516Talking about Denmark specifically, the socdems nuked the far right pre-emptively by restricting immigration ages ago.
Pretty much everyone including their own voters across Europe hates the far right platform except for immigration, which is the only reason they're relevant.
>>1901525Clearly it didn’t work since the far right parties are still around and has barely receded (especially when compared to Sweden and Finland)
>>1901503FUCK. jannies deleted the reply to this before i could read it :(
>>1901528[spoiler]écrit-le en français[/spoiler]
(Je peux lire un peu de français )
>Not a single local Corsican made it into the second round. All MPs representing Corsica will be metropolitan transplants
lmao
>>1901534this is actually a tragedy
>>1901534New NLFC guerilla campaign when?
>>1901527They're literally getting wiped the longer it goes on. In 2015 they were about the same vote but third with the socdems and liberals, and now they're languishing at around 10% of the vote and the top three are now socdems, demsocs and liberals. In Sweden the SDs are in government and have been since 2022.
No pretty graph for pre-2015 election unfortunately. It's Danish political polling from pre-2015 election to now for anyone not following along.
>>1901538O is replaced by another right wing party called Æ. Both of them add up to about 15%.
>>1901564Forgot about D else well.
>>1901564>>1901568Yeah but now the demsocs and socdems have around 38%, in less than a decade they've almost doubled the left-ish vote and sent the right into endless splits and decline. Because only complete weirdos actually like the right wing platform outside of immigration.
D is under the funni line and will be gone soon
>>1901493Lutte Ouvriere (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutte_Ouvri%C3%A8re), Trot party of pencil pusher with a cool program but people think they're an actual sect.
Can we please keep all that "scandi" shit out of this thread about France? Comparisons to that are as relevant as with Paraguay and Uzbekistan.
Why are the neoliberals allying with the socialists instead of the far-right? It doesn't make sense.
>>1901620Neoliberal policies in France were started by Mitterand during the second half of it's first mandate. They are more linked with the left than in other countries like Britain.
>>1901620Wacky post-Soviet planet turned everyone into an ideological mess
>>1901607>what are the four freedoms
>>1901620They are only allying with selected socdem candidates while explicitly excluding far-left candidates of the popular front.
However, you have to understand that RN was literally founded by Vichy-collaborators, so there is a direct continuity from this political force to when the last time the far right was in power, the Nazis. So at least some liberals in France have hesitations.
>>1901620neolibs actually rip eah other's throats over it tho.
>>1901642Also Mélenchon immediately announced they'd do it for candidates for Macron's party so there's only so much they could do to avoid returning the favor. Especially since their rhetoric has been "the PS and Greens are honorable Republican parties that have disgraced themselves allying with the baby-eating Venezuela antisemites of LFI".
>>1901637That's not entirely correct. Mitterand and the dominant factions of the "socialist" party undoubtedly scrapped the "common program" after just a couple of years in his presidency in the early 80s and moved toward neoliberalism, but neoliberal tendencies have always been present in the "republican" rightwing parties - Gaullists and Giscardians, especially Giscardians I would say - to the extent France was one of the first countries to pass a law about "central bank independence" already in the 1970s. There were two years at the end of FM's first term when he had to accept a centre-right government with Chirac as prime minister. They undid all the nationalisations of the first couple of years of PS-PCF government and even pushed to privatise more stuff, such as public water, among the first westoid countries to do that.
Long story short is that all mainstream political parties in the last decades have been responsible of that shit, and that includes the "centrist" IVPITERIANS which are really just people leaving the sinking ships of both the PS and LR plus a bunch of last-minute opportunists jumping into politics from the professional-managerial class. The only ones having never been in government are those on the far right, but obviously they will follow the same script Salvini, Meloni and other such subhumans had to when they were given the keys to the government.
>>1901642Nah I seen some Ensemble candidates stepping down to give LFI candidates the best chance.
>>1901161The youth here jncludes like a gorillion algerians and bantus how could the far right take over them
>>1901620Because gibs neoliberalism is still neoliberalism
>>1901731Do they have voting rights tho?
>>1901740Most nafris are second gen so i guess. Not sure about black africans though
>>1901740If they are born in France they do but they're not using it much. Though the RN actually being close to seizing power might have changed that a bit.
>>1901731muh Bantus
shut the fuck up ignorant rightoid subhuman
>>1901745i wish the LFI was actually anti
___ as the media claims then maybe muz would come out in droves to vote for them
>>1901758most blacks in France are from west Africa and the Caribbean including from its own goddamn colonies. Do you even know where Bantus live?
>>1901765muh Blacks
shut the fuck up ignorant rightoid subhuman
Seems people PCF are blaming LFI's hyper focus on urban areas and Melenchon's presence for the losses that the NFP incurred. Personally, I think the later is pure cope since the media keeps trying to involve him anyway and he is notably stepping away from debates.
>>1901779>Seems people PCF are blaming LFI's hyper focus on urban areasHoly shit it happened
>>1901086>>the Left forsakes the rural areas since they are dominating in the cities>Will we get maximum keks and see the PCF whine about this?
>>1901779PCF should just join the rural party with that one ugly fatass
>>1901784>>1901798I mean they are not wrong, but bitching and whining LFI doesn't help them win votes, let alone uphold the NPF.
Idk why the LFI has to bend over for the PCF's rural agenda. Just do it without crying about Melenchon and LFI during the campaign.
>>1901299>coté chaotique décivilizé pardon ? de quoi tu parles ?
>Ca m'embête pour Roussel moi non, quand t'es du parti communiste et que t'es sur plein de points à droite de LFI qui sont juste des socdems, tu mérites de disparaitre
>>1901316>Il faut que la gauche française se débarasse lol, oui bien sur, réduisons encore plus le nombre de groupes sociaux à qui la gauche parle
>problème d'imageon l'aura toujours, c'est ca quand tu fais chier les bourgeois
>Il nous faut plus de bureaucrate technocrate en costumelol, ridicule, tu gagnes pas voix avec ca, à moins que le monde bourgeois qui possède les médias à confiance dans le fait que tu vas trahir
>>1901345>La gauche antiwoke j'ai aucun problème avec cet aspect (ils proposent pas de les pourrir non plus faut pas déconner), par contre si c'est pas pour etre bien radical sur d'autres points (anti impérialisme, anti europe) jvois pas l'intéret
>>1901355>he made abortion a constitutional rightwhich is purely performative communication, it doesnt change shit, its always about the actual access and limitations which arent in the constitution
>>1901493>what leftists parties did not join the NFP?Lutte Ouvrière. I voted for them because NFP put a PS fucker in my constituency, and the RN/LREM had 0 chances of winning (NFP got like more than 40%).
>>1901161>>1901257I've had a think about how all this squares away with pics related and I assume that LFI are getting their votes from young workers and middle aged managers/professionals, most commonly in urban areas? This also checks out with the complaints of LFI being too urban-centric.
Social background is a trick of the data representation though, as a party they do better with working class but RN in general do well across the board so LFI has the amusing distinction of doing best among the upper class, this can also be seen in pic2 where LFI does best among itself with the poor, but how it's displayed doesn't make it immediately apparent as it is which party does best where, not which party has its best performance where. This is probably because it's not normally meant for three way elections and works better with just two parties.
I suspect RN is getting ahead in so many different fields because of their domination in the working class retiree section and LFI underperforming with the over-35s in general. I didn't bother talking about Macron's faction as I would just end up writing a wall of text laughing at his constituency of retarded old people.
>>1901823LFI obviously being the NFP, I got used to writing LFI at the start
>>1902293Why is everyone in the RN gay what the fuck is going on
>>1902293>call for snap election>place thirdB R A V O, J V P I T E R!
>Jean-Luc Melenchon, who leads the left-wing New Popular Front, said he would withdraw candidates who placed third in the first round of parliamentary elections to ensure two-horse races to defeat the highest number of far-right RN candidates in the coming vote.Watch centrists not reciprocate. I am almost tempted to make a stupid prediction, because centrists are, and always have been, scum.
>>1880116>the French Revolution was a mistakeAre you actually mentally challenged?
>>1902310Well Macron's party is haphazardly, It can't even stick to a coherent line. So sometimes you have Renaissances candidate dropping out and sometimes don't.
So far 60 centrists withdrawed when the NFP got second. Worth noticing that twice as much NFP candidates withdrawed when the opposite happened.
france anons, what are the chances the affluent liberals will give into the popular front as a sort of strategical vote to deprive the RN?
>>1902476Clearly not enough to win a majority for NFP
Unique IPs: 186