>>2611772Trump really has overseen the Bumfights-ification of burger rightoids
>>2612103Not gonna watch this but I'm gonna go ahead and assume he accidentally redpilled himself doing research for his GLADIO video
>>2612136the video is about how he tips every worker he can and thinks that redistribution of wealth is virtuous. im not familiar with his content, but he seems massively popular.
>>2612139>new rev and reve!!Holy shit lets goooooo. Only YTer i ever patreoned, because of the gaza vid.
Fuck Jesus, Adi Callai is new best Christmas man from occupied Palestine!
>>2611698myes but still there were real actual changes to law and so on. if you broke them the state would ultimately have you murdered. just like we will murder porky. you're making it more difficult than it is
>>2612139The Gaza ghetto uprising was really good, I recognized him immediately in this thumbnail even tho I only watched that video once when it came out like a year ago. I will definitely watch this one, thanks for notifying us anon
>>2612202You are an idiot.
>>2611320I immediately recognized its revolutionary potential when I saw a video of Fidel Castro fighting Reagan in a WWE match.
>>2612228That was the first piece of media not from the usual suspects (EI, etc.) after Oct7 that made me think, damn were not just going to descend In to liberalism with this, and more than thst he was uncompromisingly radical in their positions and arguments.
All his content is informative, went thru after that video popped off and leaned/was better able to formulate and articulate thoughts on the topics.
>>2611324>A communist party, must derive its power from new economic subjects produced by new relations of production>>2611407>it’s the material relations of productionnew relations of production require sufficient productive forces, which is exactly what ML are building. communist productive relations are predicated on a lack of scarcity which is materially conditioned by a quantitative change in productive forces leading to a qualitative change in relations of production, just like how the solidification of bourgeois right over devine right of kings was predicated on the invention of the steam engine
>You can’t just decree new social relations>Decrees don’t create new social relations by themselvesexcept that is exactly what ultras are demanding when they critique the soviets for "not abolishing commodity production". they very much precisely do in fact believe that socialism is a matter of passing a bill that says no more commodities and that the soviets consciously chose to betray the revolution by not doing so
>>2612255The bolshevik revolution was premature and doomed from the start but they couldn’t have known at the time
>>2610992Had the same happen to me. Every account I create is shadow banned instantly with no clue as to why
>>2612264it would have been fine if not for revisionism after stalin. unfortunately khreschev didn't understand dialectics and tried to stick to dogma in rhetoric after the material conditions changed while also compromising the base with his actions
>>2612272Revisionism happened precisely because the political party form has no inherent blocks to it
>>2612302>the political party form has no inherent blocks to itwhat would that even look like
>>2612269>>2612241Like the Stalin fighting Hitler one
>>2612303People with bad thoughts would explode as soon as they thought of revisionism
>>2611324>Long before any capitalist state power, through concrete transformations in production (tenant farming, rent competition, market dependence) within feudal society.As you just pointed out Feudal states backed those capitalist processes before capitalists officially took power. Meaning it was feudal state power that facilitated capitalism. And so socialism can also be facilitated through state power.
>Expecting communism to appear only after a party seizes power is the ahistorical error Marx explicitly criticised.Yeah, because it doesn't happen automatically. The state needs to actively push to get the boulder rolling.
>which is why their politics never escaped the capitalist mode of production in the first place.Simply killing the capitalist class and having workers collectively owning the economy means the economic system isn't fully capitalist anymore. Yes, they need to go further than just that but it is still a step out of capitalism. This is not higher phase communism you want but it's the beginning of the lower phase of communism Marx talked about which MLs call socialism.
>>2612264But it wasn't doomed from the start. It took several decades of bad leadership to sink the USSR and it could have been turned around at many points. The fact the CPC successfully did avoid this doom means it wasn't destined.
>>2612303The problem was insisting Democratic Centralism included unanimous party unity over possible factionalism. After revisionist take a single misstep it then becomes next to impossible to reverse it unless you have a military coup. Fix this to where the party can reverse bad decisions instead of pretending everyone agrees 100% with all past decisions.
>>2612310ai slop but the names got a laugh out of me
>>2612255The real issue you’re avoiding is when productive forces are sufficient. A century ago, in largely agrarian and semi-capitalist conditions, it made sense to argue that the task was basic industrialization. Capitalism was not yet the dominant mode of production.
But that argument cannot be extended indefinitely. If political power is exercised through capitalist relations, even if the social base is workers rather than capitalists, then the power of the state still derives from and reproduces the capitalist mode of production. At what point does quantitative growth stop being preparation and start being reproduction of capital?
Historical qualitative breaks don’t occur because productivity hits some abstract level, but because new productive capacities no longer fit the old relations. The steam engine mattered because it reorganized labour, coordination, and surplus extraction beyond what feudal relations could contain.
What is the equivalent rupture now? One possible answer is that globalized communication networks already make large scale, non market organization of labour technically possible. The barrier is no longer productive capacity, but the persistence of capitalist social relations.
And yes, some ultras have made the retarded argument that socialism is just a law abolishing commodities. That critique deserves to be mocked, but it is not representative of leftcom analysis, especially the communization variant, has always focused on material reproduction, not legislative fetishism.
>>2612517Feudal states did facilitate early capitalist processes, but they did so because those processes were already materially underway and provided revenue, military capacity, and administrative leverage the feudal order itself increasingly depended on. The state didn’t invent capitalism, it selectively enforced and generalized relations that were already becoming dominant. This is an important distinction.
The point is that state action can accelerate, protect, or generalize new relations, it cannot substitute for their material existence.
Killing the capitalist class does not abolish the capitalist mode of production if wage labour, value production, and accumulation persist. In Marx, a mode of production is defined by social relations, not by which class occupies managerial positions. Collective ownership administered through value relations is still capital.
The “lower phase of communism” Marx describes is already beyond commodity production and wage labour, even if distribution still reflects scarcity. Calling capitalist reproduction under workers management “socialism” doesn’t make it a transition out of capitalism, it makes it a different political form of capitalism.
That’s the historical question ML theory never resolves at what point does developing productive forces through capitalist relations stop being preparation and start being the reproduction of capital itself?
>>2612629>it cannot substitute for their material existence.When the state is the totality of all society, why not? If Marx thought communism could happen in his lifetime then why is it suddenly impossible now?
>In Marx, a mode of production is defined by social relations, not by which class occupies managerial positions.But without the bourgeoisie to stand in the way there is nothing to stop the worker controlled state from changing the MoP
>The “lower phase of communism” Marx describes is already beyond commodity production and wage labourHe was actually very vague. When he talked about it he didn't mention the elimination of commodity production specifically but was going on about rights and equality:
<But these defects are inevitable in the first phase of communist society as it is when it has just emerged after prolonged birth pangs from capitalist society. https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1875/gotha/ch01.htm>That’s the historical question ML theory never resolves at what point does developing productive forces through capitalist relations stop being preparation and start being the reproduction of capital itself?It is basically impossible to eliminate commodity production when you need to deal with he rest of the world that still uses commodities. This is just an economic version of a similar argument anarchists have when they insist the USSR should have given up the state organization of economy and have no hierarchy in the military to achieve communism before actually winning.
>>2612693
Leftcom above just argued ML states are incapable of changing the MoP and need to wait for it to happen naturally. Your post seems to imply the opposite?
Bros does anyone have a good viedo essay to watch
Arlo, the Nintendo puppet, is now worried about the transfer of wealth from the poor and working class to the rich.
>>2612654Who said it's impossible? I believe it is possible. The state being "the totality of society", by this you mean the nationalization of industry. Has nothing to do with alternative social relations of production.
Political power reflects the economic mode of production and the class whom it represents, in ML States it unusually represented the exploited working class, but nevertheless the political apparatus is connected to capitalism and relies on it to maintain influence.
I'll agree he was vague on the lower phase of communism, but it is clear he believed it was a structurally qualitative transformation. Not the simple nationalization of industry.
>“Between the individual and society there stands only the producers’ association, and this association has the ownership of the means of production in common.” - Marx, Critique of Gotha Program >"In a society which has advanced to this stage of development, the producers do not exchange their products." - Marx, Critique of Gotha Program Yes we live in a global economy, communism is not a national project to be realized within the boundaries of nation states. I am not arguing some retarded anarchist moral point on abolishing hierarchy and military. I am substituting economic organization for political capture as primacy of the realization of communism.
Without underlying new communist economic relations of production, the party can do nothing but alter the rules of capitalism to be more favourable to workers, or in pre capitalist societies develop the means of production to the point a communist economic model is possible.
Neither of which constitute the desired transformation. New economic relations, which can sustain itself seperate from capital must be developed, the parties role is to accelerate and defend the growing economy, not to institute it from above by decree.
>>2612713I think you are talking to a different poster, but regardless in never claimed it will happen "naturally". Technological development alters the organizational capabilities of humanity. This can be planned, not just spontaneous.
Basically MLs get so caught up in political power questions they forget what communism is about. We are beyond the stage of needing to develop the productive forces in pre capital societies, adjust your strategies or remain irrrelevant.
>>2612689What the FOK does this greek-austalian-argentine bearded sloptuber know about anything anyway?
>>2612716We gotcha fam:
>>2612139Or watch the vid Gaza Ghetto Uprising vid if you didn't see it.
>>2612264Imagine being this much of a Menshevik in the year of our lord 2025 lmao
>>2612736Mensheviks won.
Seethe and cope Leninoid.
>>2612746Very funny anon 😂
Happy Xmas! Feeling nostalgic for the 420chan jingle and snow.
>>2612748<Long live our fraternal parties! (Prolonged applause.)
<Long life and health to the leaders of the fraternal parties! (Prolonged applause.)
<Long live the peace between the peoples!
<(Prolonged applause.)
<Down with the arsonists of war! (Everyone stood up. Stormy, prolonged applause that became an ovation. There were shouts of "Long live Comrade Stalin!" "Long live the great leader of the working people of the world, Comrade Stalin!" "The, great Stalin!" "Long live peace between the peoples!")Banger for sure
>>2612689It looks like by the end of this conflict they are gonna pull the rug under western audiences as they did with linguistic shibboleths and neonazi symbology.
if you go to places like:
https://www.kyivpost.com/https://www.pravda.com.ua/ or their hilarious "historical" Pravda project (picrel)(
https://www.istpravda.com.ua/articles/2021/01/27/158890/)
It's like they are replaying the iron curtain script in complete denial of the last half century and, like, all of modern information technology. They got all these people, who obviously I'm not academically qualified to critique, spouting Gehlen organization takes with the occasional woke slop to wash it all down.
Yous average MSM enjoyer is gonna talk like the Nazoids, but guilelessly, earnestly believing the cold war fascist slop because it's the new virtuous thing to say and more importantly, they never experience any of the tensions of upholding that stuff. The average "supOOOOrter" never goes to war, never gets "foreign policy-ed" by a greater power and never has to actually live with the fascists their governments install abroad.
Cockshott video be lyk audiorel
https://twitter.com/catastrop_h_ic/status/2003795353838272732#m>basic ass communist take on intellectual property<You cannot be older than 12 bruh<Some of the most exploited workers in the capitalist system are artists and musicians<The most stupid ppl saying they don't believe in IP so they can steal artists work, make porn of it, do irreversible ecological damage<The much-maligned profit incentive funds R&D departments to do all kinds of crazy expensive shit<A temporary monopoly in exchange for advancing humanity's interests is a good deallook at our leftoids dawg
>>2612759He thinks China is capitalist.
Dropped
>>2613102You fucked up by going on twitter to begin with
The revolution happens in TruthSocial
>>2613182Brandon Overrated Kak Torres
>>2613183the revolution will be retruthed
>>2612517>After revisionist take a single misstep it then becomes next to impossible to reverse it unless you have a military coup. Fix this to where the party can reverse bad decisions instead of pretending everyone agrees 100% with all past decisions.but china is demcent
>>2612629>What is the equivalent rupture now? its computers. the global economy has been running on fumes since the 70s.
>>2612629>Historical qualitative breaks don’t occur because productivity hits some abstract level, but because new productive capacities no longer fit the old relations. its the same thing. sedentary agriculture leads to a surplus of food changing social relations, steam engine leads to surplus commodities changing social relations. computerized automation leads to changing social relations. the problem is uneven development and lack of revolutionary consciousness in the most developed countries and relative development of communist countries to hostile imperialist ones.
>The real issue you’re avoiding is when productive forces are sufficient.I'm not. Full communism is predicated on a post-scarcity economy.
>>2609682Sorry to say but the Third World is worse and has brought destruction upon itself.
t. Thirdie Pajeet
>>2613185resentful ACPoid detected
>>2613222You will still flee to the West, so I've still won, no matter how self-hating you are :^)
>>2612726>by this you mean the nationalization of industry. Has nothing to do with alternative social relations of production. I'm saying having control of industry (nationalization) is the first step to transformation (alternative social relations of production.) You can't actively change how production works without first controlling the MoP first.
>communism is not a national project to be realized within the boundaries of nation states. That's the issue. You can't completely change everything when most the world is still capitalist and we don't have complete control over human affairs. That was the reason Stalin explicitly gave for keeping commodity production in his 1951 pamphlet Economic Problems of Socialism. However he argues for continuing to move the economic system towards fully realizing communism step by step as was technologically and politically possible. It was Khrushchev who back pedaled with his market reforms.
>the parties role is to accelerate and defend the growing economy>not to institute it from above by decree.Not sure what the difference is exactly. If you control the MoP, the workers, the economy, society as a whole and you have the technological capability, then essentially it is "decrees" from the controlling part of the body that changes how the body functions.
>This can be planned, not just spontaneous.I fully agree with this statement. But it seems to clash with your earlier assertion economic change can't be imposed from above. Can you clarify?
>Basically MLs get so caught up in political power questions they forget what communism is about. Most anti-revisionist MLs agree things got off track long ago and often point towards Khrushchev. However I also point toward the structure of Democratic Centralism as being part of the blame allowing revisionists to hijack the Party in the fist place.
>>2613215Demcent makes policies harder to reverse. So when you are right you keep going correctly but when you are wrong you can crash.
Demcent lead to Khrushchevite revisionism being forced on the entire party, derailing USSR for decades allowing many weaknesses to pile up. All it took was Glasnost to show it. On the other hand CPC Demcent did not derail to the same extent because of Mao fighting Khrushchevite revisionism. They also didn't have Glasnost allowing them to hide weakness.
>>2613231Idgaf about ACP screeching retards
I also dgaf about your sloptuber
https://ofpatmos.substack.com/p/fight-jewish-exceptionalismBadEmpanada's first substack article.
Fight Jewish Exceptionalism
Anti-Zionists need to attack Israel as they would any other settler colonial ethnostate. This means treating Jews equally rather than as sacrosanct.
>>2613468billions must uphold the anti-Yakubian perspective
https://twitter.com/jacobin/status/2004190396109173179#m
>pic of marx and jesus together>tweet by jacobinoh no
<The conventional understanding of Marxism as doggedly anti-religious is wrong.oh no
<In fact, as philosopher (…) arguedoh no…
<Christianity and Marxism have at times inspired in humanity a radical sense of hope to build a more just worldbruh
>>2613259No I won't. I'll stay here and drown with this ship. At least I'll have the satisfaction of watching it all go down.
>>2613560Extremely weak Christoid tricknology.
>>2612139he spends a ton of time shitting on organizers of palestine protests for trying to identify agents provocateurs. anarchist try not to marginalize a mass movement by non-consensually escalating conflict with authorities in spite of the consensus of protestors challenge: impossible.
I'll never understand the anarchist impulse to infiltrate non-violent mass movements and use them as cover for vandalism. I don't even disapprove of vandalism, I just don't know why they don't just do it on their own time.
Eugenics kun might be a schizo but he is unironically right about Germanics. The more northern the European country the more depraved the people are. There's a hitler particle in all of them.
>>2613863>he spends a ton of time shitting on organizers of palestine protests for trying to identify agents provocateursCorrect though. If you're doing that you are playing straight into the hands of the state and its counterinsurgency strategies.
>>2613220>It's computers Yeah I fundamentally agree, but ultimately I believe it is social networking that ultimately enables alternative mass organization of productive labour outside market relations.
>It's the same thingSee this is where you have it backwards. The social relations of production that created sedentary agriculture, or the social relations of the factories (which was made possible due to rent price competition of tenant farmers in English agriculture) created alternate class structures, that later led to political ratification.
You have it that we invented some technology, which created surplus, that then changed the social relations. The social relations changed immediately, when people started practicing agriculture, it was a qualitative break.
>Full communism is predicated on post scarcity economyYes, and when do you arbitrarily decide it at that point? We are already there, the need to develop the productive further before a qualitative break has already happened.
>>2613318>Nationalization is the first stepWhy would that be necessary? Communist economic relations don't need to start on highly developed industrial productive technology, oppositely it should be practiced and developed in low stakes productive spheres, where capitalism is failing to provide adequately.
Capitalism did not start by seizing the feudal political apparatus, in fact, capitalism began with competitive rents in English agriculture. Driving productivity and market dependency on the increasingly proletarianized rural work force.
>Stalin, economic constraints No one is denying external constraints. The issue is how they are theorized. Stalin’s argument explains why commodity production persisted, it does not explain how it was supposed to be overcome. When capitalist relations are justified indefinitely on the basis of external pressure, the transition loses any internal orientation.
Marx’s point was not that communism requires “complete control over human affairs”, but that a communist society must be able to reproduce itself on non capitalist foundations. If internal reproduction (I don't mean within national project but general communist project) remains governed by value and wage labour, then external trade isn’t a constraint, it’s simply an excuse for reproducing capitalism domestically.
>Not sure what the difference is, spontaneity vs planningOkay long answer
Planning does not require the state to become the total owner of production. Planning means consciously organizing production and coordination on the basis of new material capacities, technologies and practices. Those can and historically do emerge within the prior mode of production, just as capitalist relations emerged inside feudalism.
When I say the party should accelerate and defend a growing economy, I mean it should generalize and protect new non capitalist relations that are already materially viable. That’s different from trying to impose them administratively while production still runs on wage labour, value, and accumulation. Control over the MoP gives administrative leverage, but it doesn’t itself create new social relations.
This doesn’t mean “waiting” or spontaneity. Technological development absolutely alters humanity’s organizational capacity, for me global networked communication is crucial in organization practices of 21st communism. The point is that these capacities can be organized before and beyond total nationalization. Making the state the universal owner can actually freeze those capacities into capitalist forms, because the state’s power is still derived from capitalist reproduction.
That’s also where the contradiction comes in if a party’s power rests on managing capitalist production, then instituting a new economic base means undermining the very source of its power. Nationalization isn’t neutral, it creates its own structural incentives to preserve capitalism.
Economic change can be consciously planned without being imposed from above. Planning coordinates practices, decrees substitute for them. Marx’s point is that social relations are transformed through how production is actually organized, not simply by who holds political control.
That’s why I’m saying ML strategy remains trapped in political capture, while communism is fundamentally about economic reorganization. We are past the historical moment where “develop the productive forces first” explains everything, clinging to it just reproduces capitalism under new management.
Attempting to impose new economic relations from above is unnecessary, structurally contradictory, and politically unpopular. A state whose power rests on managing capitalist production is unlikely to risk its position by instituting a new base; more likely it will shift the goalposts and stress external constraints.
>KruschevBlaming individuals for structural issues is idealism. "If only we had the right man for the job", similar to liberal framework.
>>2613893
Would you say theescelations to building occupations and factory decommissioning 'shits up the movement'?
Houngry
This article is excellent it has endless amounts of data to prove this. I feel some would get too butthurt to even read it but I hope one of you passerby people does. Bad empanada liked it btw. It has several other articles breaking this one down into pieces as well if you prefer that instead on this guy's sub stack.
https://tariqacknickulous.substack.com/p/no-jews-today-are-not-oppressed
>Jews Are NOT Oppressed: The Myth of Systemic Antisemitism
>Jews today are not a systemically oppressed group; they are extremely privileged. Antisemitism is not systemic oppression. This narrative only serves Zionism.Hope someone likes it
>>2613902
I can't really be clearer here. What doesn't help is that the original 'critique' is jut vageposting and seething.
If one would make decent arguments instead of pretending like were on twitter with Charlimits and 'le epic dunk and le based ratio'-culture then perhaps I could be clearer, having something to actually work with.
Mods, permaban chagos poster.
>>2613938>I feel some would get too butthurt to even read it Not exactly controversial or new information, at least for the left.
>>2614105i enjoy him but he is also surrounded by pseudo-intellectuals
>>2614105Emigre, dilettate-intellectual, unreliable.
>>2614124
>watched the video for maybe 30 seconds
>gimmick
Oh you mean the same language that's still used today in serious academic circles in an attempt to describe the mute, invisible, and unmeasured aspects and flows that actually lead to material change in society?
>>2614129MODS PERMABAN THIS DELEUZE GUATTARIAN NOMADIC WARMACHINE RHIZOMATIC MODERNIZER, NOW!!!
>>2614129>used in academic circlesThat's not a good thing
>>2614129GO BACK TO /DEAD/
>>2614129>>watched the video for maybe 30 secondsoh? is there a rule against commentating on a video you just started watching?
>Oh you mean the same languageby "zizek burying it under 30 tons of dirt" i mean that zizek has demonstrated that you can invoke lacan's ghost to say literally whatever, it's so choice that it's lingo that describes the "mute, invisible and unmeasured", don't you think? not saying that it's useless, but also that everyone will probably raise an eyebrow because it lends itself so well to fraudulent rhetoric. having said that, i feel genuinely respectful for anyone insisting on leveraging it.
fuck i deleted my other post i'm going back to sleep
>>2614146>is there a rule against commentating on a video you just started watching?Oh so we need rules now to avoid being rude to someone (me) who was legitimately stoked to see someone they follow giving a rare interview? Fascist…
>you can use lacan's ghost to say literally whateverI feel you there. It does come across as psychobabble bullshit but I think that when it's used in good faith to legitimately try and grasp the zeitgeist, it's permissible. Also she's a woman, and lacan is just astrology for girls who read theory. Let her cook.
>>2614161the co-host of Trueanon, pretty much the only significant/legitimate communist podcast for an american audience. This is ISG I would have expected you guys who know who she is but I guess you're all too cool for it or something
The problem with psychoanalytic bullshit is that it has no pathway to praxis
And any theory that has no praxis is wrong by defailt because how are you going to verify it?
>>2614169Aren't they radlibs like chapo
And wasn't it founded by a fed who was a mercenary for the US and killed syrians
>>2614173>aren't they radlibsno lmao. And chapo aren't radlibs.
>fed mercenary killing syriansyou really just believe whatever you hear don't you?
Man this website is full of the dumbest people who are irreverent for no reason lmao
Chapo are radlibs and true anon is opportunist.
>>2614178what does that make leftypol?
>>2614179Leftypol is an imageboard, not a podcast or influencer and therefore doesnt have a political line or ideology or whatever
>>2614181oh so the people here are even less relevant?
>>2614169Ah this shitty podcast
I tried to listen to it once but it was boring and uninteresting
And no im not american
>>2614177>P..pls care about my favorite podcasters!!Lol
>>2614177By what metric are truanon "communists"?
Also didn't chapo endorse that nazi tattoo guy a month or so ago
>>2614185Getting clout and stripes?
>>2614177Chapo certainly are radlibs, straight radical posturing. Just like all Americans.
>>2613889>Blaming individuals for structural issues is idealismOpportunism and revisionism are structural issues.
>>2614232No, they are doctrinal issues
i think chris hedges might be my favourite leftist
>>2614185US IMPERIALISM burger (imperial core) "leftism"
>>2614177>chapo aren't radlibsupvoted
>>2614245there are incentive structures that economically stimulate opportunistic and revisionistic elements
>>2614102Damn, I can’t believe doomscroll would interview the virulent anti-semitic polish nationalist, Liz Franczak
>>2613893I'd say that when there is a peaceful mass demonstration it's perfectly fine for protest marshalls to separate the edgy loner with no friends, no phone, a hammer, bottle of milk, zipties, and fox tail buttplug from families. the footage he found of PSL surrounding an anarchist was exactly that: fuck off tacticool weirdo we don't know you.
psl had an affinity group and unity of tactics. that wrecker did not.
>>2613867see above. speaking of counter insurgency why does this modern day lassallian finish up by calling to scope out the power grid like feds here and amongst the fascists do? is there some special counter terrorism law about the power grid?
>>2613900I don't disapprove of these tactics when activists engage them of their own volition. I do disapprove of "anarchist" wreckers deliberately baiting violent reprisals from the cops.
liz franczak is a fed.
>>2614173> mercenary for the US and killed syriansISIS but yeah.
>>2613889>I fundamentally agreeo ok. yeah i think computers seriously push down the rate of profit and increase contradictions
>The social relations changed immediately, when people started practicing agriculture, it was a qualitative break.i thought there was a lag. fuedalism hung on for centuries after industrialization. but how can u really know for prehistory
>and when do you arbitrarily decide it at that point?its not arbitrary. take china for example. they have to balance increasing qol with national defense from imperialism. it happens when all basic needs are met through surplus and distribution can occur according to need due to lack of scarcity. i expect it will happen sector by sector, like first food, then housing, and luxeries will remain market distributed until full communism
>We are already therei mean in a sense we are internationally, but not nationally, and the surplus is held by imperialists. if the west went commie tomorrow yeah we could plan a redistribution that fulfills everyone, but thats not what we have, instead the least developed nations went commie first and will likely have to prove themselves through trial by fire until the first world gets so jealous of abundance they revolt
we only think they can press the button now because they have just overcome absolute poverty, yes its in the cards but the priority is still defense
>Blaming individuals for structural issues is idealism. its less the individual and more what he represents
>>2614189well they are not chapo
though i do agree they have lost their edge due to patreon comfy
>>2614260I think he's easily the weakest kind of radlib, crying crocodile tears about how america has lost its way and abandoned it's laws and values to be a fascist empire. brother, when has the US ever applied its values universally? when has it not been the violent oppressor? what golden age of enlightened liberal democracy are you referring to chris???
posting some quality in this thread
Who Controls American Media and How is Israel Involvedby uncivilized
Four corporations dominate American media and influence the information consumed by the majority of the world. This video by Salem breaks down how consent is manufactured, how TikTok disrupted the system, and why it was forced back into line. From media consolidation to propaganda, this is how power communicates…and how Israel is connected to it all.
Follow uncivilized on social media:
IG: / uncivilized.media
TikTok: / uncivilized_media
Twitter: / uncivilmedia
Follow Tala on social media
IG: / tala_kaddoura_
Twitter:
https://x.com/talakaddouraFollow Salem on social media:
IG: / salem.d.barahmeh
TikTok: / salem.barahmeh
>>2614102That's crayzeeeee
>>2614447wow_mao and yugopnik crossover? a video about slurs? and they didn't bring nick mullen in? damn…
>>2614447The long awaited balaclava boys colab
>>2614447finally some good theory
>>2614179Knee jerk contrarian left
>>2614179The
REAL movement
>>2614434>Feudalism hung on for centuriesYou are confusing feudalism as an economic mode of production, and feudalist control of the political apparatus.
The distinction is absolutely massive and a huge reason current praxis fails so hard.
>>2614588they know their target audience. can you blame them?
>>2614531>You are confusing feudalism as an economic mode of production, and feudalist control of the political apparatus.no i dont think so. first industrialization, then consolidation of capital, then political power. its not a single factory is built and then suddenly the mode of production changes, especially if you still have most people as artisan craftsman or smallholders producing for use instead of for exchange.
if a nation like china still has most people producing for exchange, its not because of a bad political choice but because of the limits of production relative to the population and productive forces. they literally still had/have people living with dirt floors until like last week
>>2614592Mocking non-whites for worshipping Euroids is good actually.
>>2614177>some drunk deadbeat of a father who tells people to vote blue no matter who and biden is the lesser of the two evils is not a radlib Topkek
The Minaj is making a song on Der Kirk with Erikkka.
On the tune of the tradwife anthem, WAP, together:
There's some Zios in this house, there's some Zios in this house
I said JD's a freak, Erica or the Jeet
Wet Ass Charlie, make that Turning Point tweak!
>>2613889>Why would that be necessary? Because the state needs to fully control the thing before it can move the pieces around at will and create new relations. And just to be clear I understand nationalization is limited. Every industry in the world need to be controlled by the same body for a full transformation to take place. But nationalization is still the first step and many local aspects of an industry can be changed from that alone.
>Capitalism did not start by seizing the feudal political apparatusThe feudal political apparatus is what made the transition possible. The feudal state is what gave birth to capitalism. When Capitalists fully seized power it was the Feudalists who inadvertently gave them that ability in the first place.
>it does not explain how it was supposed to be overcome. By destroying the other capitalist states in the world and uniting all society.
>Making the state the universal owner can actually freeze those capacities into capitalist forms, because the state’s power is still derived from capitalist reproduction.The State is above the economic system. While it's true most states stay content sitting on top the economic system because of the class in charge is tied to that economic system. But as pointed out the feudal state inadvertently gave birth to new economic system of capitalism just as the slave state before it gave birth to feudalism. But this time when communists control the state they can push capitalism into socialism in full consciousness instead of inadvertently
>then instituting a new economic base means undermining the very source of its power. States don't get their power from the economic systems directly but from the people they control.
>Economic change can be consciously planned without being imposed from above. Planning coordinates practices, decrees substitute for them. This just seems like you think "decrees" are bad so you are running around trying to come up with reasons why commanding workers isn't necessary, that all you need to do is make plans then workers will just do them automatically. It's crypto-anarchist moralism, hoping you don't need the state to make those plans a reality.
>Blaming individuals for structural issues is idealism.I agree. That's why I said Democratic Centralism is a structurally flawed decision making system that allowed revisionists like Khrushchev to cause so much damage.
>>2614592>the left needs to validate my whiteness!Clown show shit lmao
>>2614619Yes and that means that capitalism as a new economic mode with distinct social relations existed long before the overthrow of feudalist political power.
Likewise communist economic organization will exist on some level, before achieving political power also.
I don't think you know what a mode of production is bro
>>2614969You’re treating the state as an autonomous agent that can create social relations by rearranging pieces once it has total control. That’s precisely the idealism Marx was rejecting. States don’t generate modes of production, they stabilize and manage the ones that already exist.
Nationalization gives administrative reach, not new relations. Commanding workers reproduces wage labour, it doesn’t abolish it. Calling this “planning” just confuses coercive coordination with material transformation.
At that point we’re not disagreeing tactically, we’re using two incompatible theories of how social change happens. I don’t think this is going anywhere productive. Go repeat the Soviet Union, have a look at China today and tell me how great communism is there.
>>2614969We’re talking past each other. You’re treating political command as the motor of social change, I’m treating production relations as primary. That’s not a tactical disagreement but a different theory of history.
>>2614980>That’s precisely the idealism Marx was rejecting.Except what made him different from anarchist is the use of the state.
>States don’t generate modes of production, they stabilize and manage the ones that already exist.Ignore the feudal state creating capitalism then. It was on accident but it happened.
>Commanding workers reproduces wage labour,Not when they no longer have a wage.
>Calling this “planning” just confuses coercive coordination with material transformation.No, I just pointed to a state as the organizational form that creates the new relations of production. You just vaguely point to workers and say they will magically figure it out after some plans are made up. You are an anarchist. Stop pretending.
>Go repeat the Soviet UnionI critiqued the USSR and CPC several times already…
>>2614983>You’re treating political command as the motor of social change,Political command is the process that workers use to enact the change. Again you vaguely point to workers magically just doing it with no coordinating body to facilitate it.
>I’m treating production relations as primary. No, you are pretending economics is separate from society like a liberal academic. But this is ultimately why leftcoms will never achieve anything. How they also came up with something as interesting as Organic Centralism is a mystery.
>>2614777>the fact of the matter is the USA ruling class unintentionally did the work of desensitizing and making cynical the USA public a long time ago … that is the reason people are making stupid crass jokes about the epstein situation.I think you're right, and also personalizing exploitation, abuse, etc. onto this one figure doesn't really change the system or wider structure that enabled him. Or at least it hasn't so far.
>>2614989This is such a good reply. I want to link every dumbass magical thinking anarchist who posts here pretending they're ""Marxists"" to this reply. It's so insane that these retards are allowed to have a computer
>>2614989I'm not rejecting the use of the state or party, I argue its role is to accelerate and defend new economic relations made possible with new technology. Exactly how capitalism came into being. New class formation led to new political operatives working on behalf of the economic mode to solidify and establish control. You claim to seize political power first, gimping yourself as this is a monumental and unnecessary step.
>No longer have a wageHow do you suggest that happens, seizing the state makes it easier to magically create communism? Why can't it be practiced on low stakes small scale production first. As a mode of production it should be suitable for producing all ranges of things, not requiring the whole of society.
>Workers will magically create it after some plans are made upCurrently no one even considers how we could create an alternative mode of production with today's technological capabilities. It is not spontaneous, and will not include all workers from the beginning. Most likely will appear in the areas where capitalism is failing to meet demand.
>Political command is the process that workers use to enact changeWithin the confines of capitalist production, yes.
>I'm treating economics as separated from societyYou are joking right? I say that politics as part of the superstructure is wholly connected and limited to the base mode of production. It is YOU who claims the state is above the economy and can alternate it at will. You literally said
>Power comes from the people not the economyAs if the people aren't economic units!
>Organic centralismIm with you there, it is damn retarded.
>OverallWe both agree that new economic social relations must begin at some point. You believe the whole world economy needs to be nationalized first, I believe it is unnecessary.
Analysis of
>Hunter gatherer to early agriculture>Feudal to capitalismSuggest this is both unnecessary and not how transition happens. Economic transition is a blurred process of completing economic systems, not the flick of a switch. New economic processes will arise amid the previous, establish itself as more effective, and finally challenge and establish itself as the dominant organizational form.
>>2615043>>2615033>Productive argument happening between two well read anons in good faithThis site has turned to shit
>>2614592Kyle got a lot of undue hate for using that image. Even BadEmpanada said something along the lines of, "Indians are poor therefore they pretend to be white for money", which is bs. Most of these people are part of coordinated troll farms and harrassment groups, largest of which is the BJP IT Cell. Also, the average poor Indian doesn't have the English proficiency to perfectly imitate native English speakers.
>The Bharatiya Janata Party Information Technology Cell is a specialized department of the Indian political party Bharatiya Janata Party, responsible for managing the party's digital and social media outreach. The cell has been alleged of spreading misinformation, causing mob lynchings and popularising stereotypical narratives against Muslims. It also coordinates online campaigns, promotes party narratives, and amplifies the voices of its leaders and members across various platforms.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BJP_IT_Cell
>inb4 racistI am Indian.
>>2615072>BadEmpanada said something along the lines of, "Indians are poor therefore they pretend to be white for money"The sad part is BE isn't even funny enough to say it like this, which if it were the case, would make it the only likeable quality he possessed.
>>2615043>noo don't seize political power!>porky won't crush your nascent gommunist system because.. he just won't, ok?>please do not make use of the precise systems that have been shown to be effective in protecting against bourgeois sabotageit appears to be emitting visible light
>>2615043>I'm not rejecting the use of the state or party, I argue its role is to accelerate and defend new economic relations made possible with new technology. Yet you insist the state can't ackchyually do anything until after socialism is already around, but ackchyually the state doesn't need to do anything at that point anyway and ackchyually it's coercive and bad. That's why I keep on saying you are crypto-anarchist. You say you support the idea of a state but then come up with every excuse for why communists don't need it, why they can't use it and why it's morally bad to use it.
>You claim to seize political power first, gimping yourself as this is a monumental and unnecessary step.Capitalist stumbled onto capitalism but socialist don't need to stumble onto socialism in the same way. They were blind, we are not. That's why workers can use state power in a way that previous classes could not.
>How do you suggest that happens, seizing the state makes it easier to magically create communism? 100%. The power of the state allows you to order industries how to behave and interact. You can feasibly impose labor vouchers and eliminate money in one go.
>Why can't it be practiced on low stakes small scale production first.It can be t make sure it works. But when you scale it up you need some from of organization that can enact the change on a larger scale.
>Currently no one even considers how we could create an alternative mode of production with today's technological capabilities.While it's limited currently once you control of society you can assign engineers, scientists, economists to look at the problem and make those plans feasible.
>Within the confines of capitalist production, yes.Capitalist production is only possible within the confines of legal protection provided by the state. Which would no longer need to exist when workers take over.
>I say that politics as part of the superstructure is wholly connected and limited to the base mode of production.Both of those are controlled by a class. When workers control the state and the MoP they can change them both.
>It is YOU who claims the state is above the economy and can alternate it at will. Because it can if the class controlling it decides to change it. In practice though states don't try to change the economic system purposefully because the class in charge benefits too much. But that is clearly different with workers. They don't benefit from capitalism so they can use the state to change the relations of production.
>As if the people aren't economic units! They are but they are more than that. A state can potentially control the totality of a person not just their economic output.
>Im with you there, it is damn retarded.It was the only thing of value Bordiga wrote about. He noticed some problems with Democratic Centralism and tried to make his own fix. But then sat back in his chair and refused to do anything. Of course the only productive organizational issue he discussed is what you dislike of his lol
>>2614592Tried to watch the video to formulate an understanding of the messaging taken by this clown and the entire thing is one long incoherent diatribe designed to engage with audience stereotypes. The video is just designed to drive user interaction among a certain base through the same thoughtless content. How the fuck can you sit there for 40 minutes and listen to this shit is beyond me.
>report someone on the other site for saying a gamedev “should be killed” and calling on violence to them for making woke/leftist/worse RPGs, obviously violating global rules
>3 day global ban for “abusing report system”
Stochastic rightwing terror website
>>2615072> BJP IT CellThe name almost seems designed to farm anti-Hindu sentiment lmao
>>2615270I have never seen any example of spiritualism in a modern context that is not basically representative of fascist thinking. Always beware when you see someone into runes or paganism or any of that new age shit
>>2615270there's a tiny sliver of truth in that secularism is a form of repressed spirituality i think, it always comes back in some grotesque form.
>>2614747W.A.P. is a Cardi B song THOUGH
>>2615300is that threads? lmfao
>>2615287The belief people have an innate drive towards "spirituality", and that its absence is the cause of social ills is at best, a misdiagnosis of alienation, and at worst, reactionary drivel.
It's no coincidence that neopaganism started gaining popularity around the time of romanticism and the early upswings of bourgeois nationalism. Secret societies, heavily dominated by the bourgeoisie also took on an esoteric pagan character. Look at Rosicrucianism.
Today neopagan and spiritualist movements have dropped any semblance of a progressive character. They are movements of the petite-bourgeoisie.
>>2615300>Let's do better than thatHR is typing…
>>2615300>digital blackfacewhat's that?
>>26153002016 ahh ragebait.
Whatever happened to breadtube
>>2614974>communist economic organization will exist on some level, before achieving political power alsoi dont disagree im just saying thats exactly why you dont have full communism now
>>2614980>have a look at China today and tell me how great communism is therepretty good
>>2615322You mean NATOtube?
>>2615033>I want to link every dumbass magical thinking anarchist who posts here pretending they're ""Marxists"" fr they arent even leftcoms
>>2615322They became irrelevant
>>2615077>USSR>China>Protected against bourgoies sabotageYou have to be joking right?
>>2615084I said the states role is defence and acceleration of new economic relations. Not capitalist state nationalism and endless postponing of establishment of new economic models.
Never once have I said anything about morals.
>StumblingYes we don't need to stumble, I agree. I don't agree that part of the equation is capitalist state nationalization.
>Labor vouchersLet's get rid of "money" and replace it with "labor vouchers". Besides the ridiculous of this (I know Marx said something stupid about this), why has this never happened?
>Once in control science man will do itWhy can't that be done now? Why do you insist on political power being necessary? Perhaps you don't like the idea that so much time has been wasted on something completely unnecessary?
>Both of those are controlled by a classNo, classes are controlled by the structural incentives of the economic mode of production of which they are a product of.
>Clearly different for workersHow naive you are my friend, love how you shift the goal posts, first I believe the state is separate from economy, now you admit it's you but it's different if in the "name" of the workers. Once you become a representative of the workers and assume state power and control of surplus value extraction, YOU are the ruling class. Laughable to assume they didn't benefit from capitalism.
>They are more than that!A state receives its power from its control of surplus labour power extracted through social productive organization.
>BordigaI'm not an avid follower of Bordiga, read about "communization". But I have my own disagreements and ideas about applying this in practice with today's technology, in conjunction with state acceleration and defence.
>To sum it upme: Modes of production change through new material practices, which states may later stabilize or suppress.
You: Modes of production change through state command, because the right class holds the lever.
You insist I'm an anarchist because I refuse that political power can substitute for missing material relations.
You are an idealist, end of story.
>>2615345the PRC is still kicking
>>2615353>Let's get rid of "money" and replace it with "labor vouchers". Besides the ridiculous of this (I know Marx said something stupid about this), why has this never happened?we actually already have Marxian labour vouchers. they're called debit cards
>>2615300can I still watch bbc porn and jack off to it?
>>2615353>Not capitalist state nationalism and endless postponing of establishment of new economic models.You keep insisting the transition between capitalism and socialism can not have state support at all, ignoring all previous history of how the state actively pushed the next form of economic organization. This is despite the fact previous slave state actively supported the feudal relations and the feudal state actively supported capitalist relations. So why insist the state plays no role in the transition between systems when historically it already did?
>Never once have I said anything about morals.>>2612726<institute it from above by decreeThis phrasing about the state changing the economy is dripping with anarcho-libertarian moralism about freedom and hierarchy. And you also conveniently don't want the state to do anything until socialism just appears by itself…
>Besides the ridiculous of this It's not ridiculous at all. Simply put labor voucher cant buy farms and factories.
>(I know Marx said something stupid about this)Amazing you were lecturing me earlier about about what Marx said about commodity production and wage labor in lower phase communism but you don't understand the point of labor vouchers. Read Critique of the Gotha Programme.
>why has this never happened?Markets and market organization. Planing would eliminate the need for money which the USSR was moving towards before it pulled back after Stalin.
>Why can't that be done now? It can be done right now, but obviously the Bourgeoisie doesn't pay it's scientist and engineers to work out how to eliminate their class.
>classes are controlled by the structural incentives of the economic mode of production of which they are a product of. And the workers are incentivized to get rid of capitalist relations. That is why Marxists see the Workers as the revolutionary class.
>believe the state is separate from economyIn essence the state is the hierarchical use of power. It has existed in one form or another since the beginning of history through raiding economy, slave economy, feudal economy, capitalist economy. The state is above those things if it can exist through all of them. Not to say it is completely independent though as the most powerful class as created by the economy is what end up taking over those states.
>Laughable to assume they didn't benefit from capitalism.Considering most of them in the USSR got eliminated by the bourgeoisie in the end it turns out they didn't benefit. You are right, they were too conservative and they lost because of it.
>A state receives its power from its control of surplus labour power extracted through social productive organization. The state fundamentally gets it's power from violence imposed on people forcing them to obey commands. Control of surplus labor power is a benefit, not the source.
>me: Modes of production change through new material practicesAnd workers are the ones who implement those material changes. The state is an organizational from that controls those people and that forces them to implement those material changes.
>I refuse that political power can substitute for missing material relations.Who said anything about substitution? Political power can push the workers into making those new material relations.
>>2615402Why are white Unitedstatians so obsessed over saying this word?
>>2615500>my communitySo she is a s worker? Guys are really out there paying for lesbian cowboy cancer patients?
>>2615551So close yet so far
>>2615551tbh, hes got a point
can't claim pride in displacing natives and then play victims when some migrants move to your place
>>2615477Its the last thing that many black people heard before getting brutally lynched, so its funny in the mind of the average ameriburger. If you realize that most burgers are sadistic anti-social monsters, then you're a sakaist
>>2615477Because it was made taboo, gets you fired, blacklisted and justifies your execution. Amazingly it's the liberals biggest culture war achievement.
>>2615551Maori are Taiwanese invaders thoughbeit
>>2615557>Because it was made taboo, gets you fired, blacklisted and justifies your execution.Good ngl
>>2615477>>2615557when youre a communist instead of taking a stance on this made-up issue you realize right wingers just want to be racist bc of muh freedoms and left wingers believe banning a word means they solved racism
>>2615551>>2615555>>2615557>invaders/settlers/etc is some completely arbitrary categorytell me something new
>>2615508apolitical chad vs virgin conservative
>>2615551Ironically, Varg's (powerword: Kristian Vikernes) ideology would possibly, unintentionally lead to a proletarian revolution if only because he wants all whites to be expelled from the Americas, Africa, Oceania, etc. and it would finally end the US empires hegemonic influence on the world and the capitalist ideology it promotes, and I guess theoretically the surplus of resources the people outside of Europe have now could finally be used to their fullest potential to rapidly develop their countries on their own terms. Well that and the massive unrest it would cause in Europe from the flood of white expatriates leading to widespread revolutions in Europe because of the stress they would put on the systems now.
>>2615558Such overreaction is evidence the America's national unification project has only been partially achieved. If people weren't so insecure about black people's place in American society they wouldn't freak out about it.
>>2615563Those types have a one drop policy that excludes most Americans from being TRVE EVROPEANS
>>2615563Would could should
Marxism analyzes things as they actually function in the world rather than what they claim about themselves
>>2615414>So why insist the state plays no role in the transition between systems when historically it already did?The state, for example under feudalism tried desperately to prevent capitalist class power from dominating the state. Please read about the English civil war/revolution. The underlying economic relations had already started transforming. Only after they were already a formidable class power did they harness the states ability to accelerate capitalist expansion. Exactly as I say we should do with communist relations!
>dripping with anarcho-libertarian moralism about freedom and hierarchy.You only see what you want to see, it is easier for you to process that any critique of the state nationalization is from an anarchist, you are just looking for an easy explanation to get me to fuck off. This has nothing to do with morals, but a materialist and historical analysis of the process of transformation. State or political orginization comes as a result of defense of new or existing economic relations.
>don't understand the point of labor vouchers.I understand, I just think they are kind of retarded, and besides this is not something any socialist state has come even remotely close to installing.
>USSR was moving towards before it pulled back after Stalin.Pure idealist, if only the man at the top had done this! We should be extrapolating from development of productive forces, not talking about how if so and so has been the boss it would be communism now.
>Bourgeoisie doesn't pay it's scientist and engineersSo you believe the only way to replace capitalism is to use the incentives of capitalist production? Do you actually believe a mode of production beyond the profit incentive and commodity production is possible?
>workers are incentivized to get rid of capitalist relationsAnd this is the unfortunate idealism (worker fetishism) that existed in Marx. Workers interest very rarely go beyond simple improvements to their life within the bounds of capitalism. It is no secret the many of most ardent Marxists were not wage labourers themselves.
>In essence the state is the hierarchical use of power.And what even is power if not the ability to control the means of production/derive surplus, how does one in power eat if he is not producing the food himself?
>Turns out they didn't benefitAs if many corrupt officials didn't have a direct hand in orchestrating the collapse for their own benefit, Yeltsin being prime candidate.
>Control of surplus labor power is a benefit, not the sourceTheir armies are not doing much without food and resources, as I said before, defence is extremely important, but it is nothing without ability to seize the products of labour.
>forces them to implement those material changes.The workers ≠ the state. Also the state is essentially a manager of the internal productive relations of society, it's point is stability. Sure, in theory you could have some enlightened leaders of a state brute force it against the incentives inherent to their control of the political apparatus, but as I said this is unnecessary and not how economic transformations have historically happened. And contrary to all attempts at this exact method you are suggesting.
>push the workers into making those new material relationsI just don't understand why you insist complete control of world production is necessary to experiment with different organizational methods? If it can just be spontaneously pushed on the workers to do it differently, why do you require such a massive and basically impossible task as preparation? You postpone any experiment until it is achieved. This is just political fetishism.
>>2615794Anti AI hysteria is 100% PMC class anxiety nothing more. You would never see a warehouse worker or a security guard launching all these tirades against muh ai slop its always author, artists, lawyers, engineers, etc
>>2615805This also relates to my anger at libs smugly saying that rightoids are more prone to AI than leftists because they are dumber and more soulless, no you dumbass rightoids are more likely to use AI because their constituency tends to draw from the lower income class of the proletariat and thus less threatened by AI than you liberal arts degree holding twitter artist ass. This is why i applaud WSWS for launching their socialism AI which imo is a key way to educate proles on socialism
>>2615805Also as a closing addendum fucking hate when PMC treatler libleftoids masquerade their class interest as fighting for the truly marginalized. This reminds me of the passage from the book We Have Never Been Woke by Musa Al-Gharbi, where after Trump's victory Columbia University students, the treatleriest of all treatlers, applied for absent leave to campus administration because, and i am not joking, they are so mentally devastated by the harm that Trump will bring to the POC and other marginalized communities, and this request for leave was granted by the administration; while the proles working for Columbia uni, like the security guards, landscaper, and janitors, almost all of whom are POC and most of whom are migrants, did not receive any paid leave or higher wages or anything substantial to improve their lives. This is the same disgusting hypocrisy i saw when treatler libleftoids advocated their interests in the name of "protecting poor communities"
>>2615810That same johhny guy was accusing mamdani's anti-reformist critics of being ivory tower theorists and not caring about the real needs of the poor and marginalized.
Ah yes, the poor and marginalized NYC gentrifiers. Children of the suburban middle class coming to the urban center for career opportunities.
The treats will trickle down you see
>>2615798>The state, for example under feudalism tried desperately to prevent capitalist class power from dominating the state.Yet It was it's own legal statutes that enabled capitalism. Yes. Nobles wanted to keep merchants down but the Feudal state de facto supported capitalism through it's own laws.
>The underlying economic relations had already started transforming.Right. With the states support. Economics is not independent of the rest of society. The State was an integral part of the transformation process itself.
>You only see what you want to seeWho are you fooling? As if people on this board haven't seen the same loaded language used by anarchists and libertarians before.
> it is easier for you to process that any critique of the state nationalization is from an anarchist, No, right-libertarians also believe in minimal state interference in the economy because they think it will help capitalism. You also want to keep the state out of the economy but you claim that it will help socialism instead. Same exact policy…
>I just think they are kind of retardedWhy? It's an easy way to get rid of money (one of the goals of communism) but still keep track of what workers want while giving them some choice in what they consume.
> if only the man at the top had done this!Using politicians to represent policy decisions of the faction or state they represent is normal. It's not literally about Stalin as a individual but his leadership of the USSR and the polices he represents. Were you really confused about that?
>so has been the boss it would be communism now.How many times do I have to talk about democratic centralism being flawed before you get it?
>So you believe the only way to replace capitalism is to use the incentives of capitalist production?Directing workers is what the class in charge does the specific way doesn't matter. Capitalist use payment and employee employer relations while a socialist state would just tell them what to work on.
>Workers interest very rarely go beyond simple improvements to their life within the bounds of capitalism. Just because capitalists kill workers who step out of line so the majority keep their heads low doesn't mean their interest in being free of capitalism disappears.
>And what even is power if not the ability to control the means of production/derive surplus,The power to kill. That is the essence of state power and why people obey.
> how does one in power eat if he is not producing the food himself? By threatening the producers.
>As if many corrupt officials didn't have a direct hand in orchestrating the collapse for their own benefit,The vast majority of USSR officials did not benefit in the end. The ones that managed to get some money out of the USSR were eaten up by the market, oligarchs, and gangsters.
>The workers ≠ the stateThe socialist state is wholly composed of workers.
>Also the state is essentially a manager of the internal productive relations of society, it's point is stability. That is only one function. And states throw out short term stability for long term gains all the time.
Only liberals idealize the state as non political entity that just sits on top of things doing nothing.
>Sure, in theory you could have some enlightened leaders of a state brute force it against the incentives inherent to their control of the political apparatusYes, that's the whole point of a socialist state. To force capitalism into socialism.
>but as I said this is unnecessary So you say. But what if it is necessary? You want to have everyone waiting for hundreds of years before they realizes it's not happening? So you have some sort of timeline or is it vague feeling you got?
>complete control of world production is necessary to experiment with different organizational methods?I'm not against experimenting. But when they find the best solution you don't keep it local.
>>2615818This is another lib talking point masquerading as pro working class activism. Studies have consistently pointed out that anti reformist/abolitionist demands are practically non existent among the working classes.
>>2615841To use an example: abolition of police and its replacement with community policing. Again, community policing works the best in neighbourhoods with high level of trust and high communal solidarity, which is absolutely not the case in diverse, majority immigrant prole neighbourhoods. Same with prison abolitionism, nobody in the working class want that. This is another case of treatlers advocating their class interests in the name of the marginalized
>>2615638It's funny cuz Trump is even more subhuman but Clavicular supports him.
>>2615843Prison and police abolitionists (literally just anarchists) are so upsetting to me.
I once saw an argument unfold where one side
sincerely chastised and berated a communist for serving on a jury to convict a fucking
rapist and send them to jail, simply because ACAB or something.
Absolutely fucking insane. We have a lot of work to do in the American left to excise this anarchist utopian bullshit after BLM (a movement which I admit did more good than harm, it just has a lot vistigial side effects that must be done away with after the fact)
>>2615841There are reformist strategies that benefit the working class, just that nobody runs on them.
And they dont6 last anyway without non electoral organizing.
Rule of thumb is that directly providing necessities is better for the working class than reducing costs.
>>2615873Also clarifying that this was between Americans (I am also a burger). I'm not in touch with how much the ACAB style lib-anarchists have sway in EU and other places
>>2615843In the US, the existing police and prison system has to be changed to the point where the prison population would effectively shrink by 90% and reach parity with civilized countries. Because it's literally just a make-work program for white police officers and prison guards that runs on the blood of black people, effectively functioning as a preventative counter-insurgency pacification strategy.
Call that reform or abolition, but the entire system woild have to be replaced at the root.
Crime is a red herring, you're 100 times more likely to die of covid thsn from random violence.
>>2615500>“S workers”can tiktok ppl not say “sex” or what?
>>2615901Real alphas don't care about any that health shit
>>2615838At this point you’ve abandoned historical materialism.
You’re arguing that political power can will new economic relations into existence, rather than those relations emerging from material practices. That’s political idealism, not Marxism.
If socialism is defined as “the state tells workers what to do,” then you’ve just reproduced class rule with different managers. Ordering production is not the same thing as transforming productive relations.
Every historical attempt to force capitalism into socialism has reproduced wage labor, accumulation, and capital. Not because leaders were flawed, but because decree cannot substitute for missing material relations.
You accuse me of waiting, I’m the one arguing for experimentation now, without postponing everything until total state control of society, a condition that has only ever produced bureaucratic capitalism.
Once political command is expected to stand in for missing material relations, the analysis stops being materialist and becomes political fetishism.
>>2615888When black people call the police the kkk, white people interpret that as "police has a racism problem".
Police doesn't have a racism, it's a feature. The police is the deputized klansmen
>>2615931How much of the people on this website are sexually normal?
>>2615931IT people are either on oestregen wearing high socks or rabidly bigotted assholes. The document theory is is bunk, the Nazis attacked this institute from the get go in 1920 because they were heavily homophobic, while the Soviets were friendly to it and studying their findings to formulate a proletarian policies regarding sex and gender before the stalinoids put a stop to it.
>>2615931>Hitler was secretly a pervertThat's what jolly ol' Otto Strasser told the OSS as well, lol
But if you want to read an absolute banger, the ultimate TRVTH NVKE on Shekkkelgrabber being a sex pest and also a jew then you should read Grigory Klimov, lmao
>>2616008is the minstrel show progressive?
>>2616027>>2616033It's not kayfabe the right is actually that stupid.
>>2616076Minstrels weren't an avatar expressing the creators' feelings like reaction images are. You're a fucking retard.
>>2616080posting pictures of black people making exaggerating facial expressions to appease white repression is part of the exact samr structure as minstrel shows.
There is a correlation between being a gooning porn addict and fascism. I can't place my finger on it exactly but it's there. No all gooners are fascists. But all fascists are gooners.
>>2615554I like this guy even though his brain is irremediably poisoned with kulturkampf bullshit and ended up making 3 videos back to back about Sydney Sweeney. Also he's hot I'm not even gay
>>2615843You're doing the midwit leftoid pundit hack shit of advancing obviously reactionary rhetoric by pretending to mediate for the TRUE salt of the earth
>>2616173well yes, why would the ruling class not do things that's popular among them?
>>2615915>rather than those relations emerging from material practices. The state is part of those material relations.
>If socialism is defined as “the state tells workers what to do,” then you’ve just reproduced class rule with different managers. You have just redefined class to mean a management position within an organization. Class is how you are connected to ownership of MoP not management. People on top of a hierarchy are not necessarily the owners. Slaves can be overseers and still be slaves. Workers can be managers and are still workers.
>Every historical attempt to force capitalism into socialism has reproduced wage labor, accumulation, and capital. I agree ML states didn't go far enough.
>Not because leaders were flawedI do not just point to flawed individual leaders but flawed organizational structures like democratic centralism that lead to flawed decision making process. The leader is just the representative.
>I’m the one arguing for experimentation now,I'm afraid that if you ever managed to make something good capitalists will use their state power to destroy it since you don't have your own state to defend your project.
>without postponing everything until total state control of society, I only meant communism can't be achieved until the entire world is controlled by socialists otherwise capitalists will use their own state power to destroy it.
>Once political command is expected to stand in for missing material relationsThere is no stand in. The socialist state is part of the process by which workers coordinate together to achieve new material relations.
>>2615638his reasoning is pretty funny
>>2616250AI generated youtube South Park is the funniest shit I've seen in months
>Randy puts CD into computer, the CD turns into a computer mouse, Randy is holding two mouses, keeps slapping one of them on the keyboard, suddenly the mouse turns into beer, has a sipMy sides
>>2616231
>The state is part of those material relations.Yes, the state is part of material relations, but it is a derivative form, not their generator. That’s the disagreement.
>People on top of a hierarchy are not necessarily the owners.When a political apparatus extracts and determines use of surplus, “on behalf of the workers,” it functions as the owner, regardless of how you label it.
How did you come to the conclusion class is a management position? I said the state functions as a manager for stabilizing the economy.
>I do not just point to flawed individual leaders but flawed organizational structures like democratic centralism that lead to flawed decision making process. The leader is just the representative.Okay I respect you are not so rigid in ML thinking. But consider that it goes deeper than just flawed decision making, perhaps it is command that can not substitute for material relations in general. Your critique still rests on ideas and not structural and material analysis.
>I'm afraid that if you ever managed to make something good capitalists will use their state power to destroy itWhich is why I argue for defence and acceleration once new relations exist, not abstention from politics. Defence is not the same thing as imagining political power can manufacture a mode of production.
Also a communist economy would be far more effective and efficient than capital, good luck putting that genie back in the bottle.
>I only meant communism can't be achieved until the entire world is controlled by socialists otherwise capitalists will use their own state power to destroy it.World control first. That’s exactly the postponement I’m criticizing. Historical transitions didn’t wait for total control, they advanced through uneven, partial, contested development.
>There is no stand in. The socialist state is part of the process by which workers coordinate together to achieve new material relations.Calling the state part of the process doesn’t resolve the issue. If people are coordinating to defend and accelerate new economic relations, great.
If political command is used to compensate for their absence, then it is standing in for them, regardless of the label.
Was Jesus a marxist?
>>2616399It's kind of crazy that it can't even replicate something as simplistic as the visuals of southpark.
>>2616400>it is a derivative form, not their generator. That’s the disagreement.I don't believe the state is the generator of material relations but it is an integral and key part of it. The state is the DNA of a society. DNA does not generate the body by itself but it's an integral part of cell machinery. Yes, normally its main function is to maintain itself but it can mutate and change the body into something else. If you control the DNA you control the resulting body. That is why workers can use the state to change productive relations.
>it functions as the owner, regardless of how you label it. Yes, managers can function as the owner, however mangers are not the owner. That is an important distinction.
>regardless of how you label it. It's not just a label. Managers can be replaced with other workers because they don't have legal ownership of the MoP. Bad manager can and should be kicked out. As a side note the USSR should have had a more vigorous system to keep it's leadership more accountable too.
>How did you come to the conclusion class is a management position? I did not, you did. I said ownership is what determines class. You just said the function of manager is the same thing as ownership. Therefore you conflate management with ownership and see management as the determining factor of class. Again if a slave is an overseer they are still a slave, their management position is not ownership.
>World control first. That’s exactly the postponement I’m criticizing. This is only for higher stage communism. Lower stage communism aka socialism can and should be implemented even while fighting capitalists.
>Historical transitions didn’t wait for total control, they advanced through uneven, partial, contested development.Completely agree. That is actually the reasoning behind Socialism in One Country policy.
>>2615931Gorky, the ACP and now dickblast. Dunno why but hardcore Stalinoids have this obsession with treating being gay into an inherently fascist trait.
>>2615931Cockshott's a guy who allowed his intellectual and ideological core to be eaten away at by raw emotions more and more the older he's gotten. Many such cases. Cockshott's decline bothers me personally because I like a lot of his older stuff, but in the grand scheme of things, he's actually one of the less extreme examples. If you want a real tragedy, check in on Richard Dawkins.
>>2616506The ACP guys are really just fascoids who dislike the racism ot the Nazis. They didn't go for Stalin because they respect what he did for the Soviet people, they decided that he was the next best thing after Hitler. They want to recontextualize history so that the Soviets were actually the ones who stood for reactionary and decadent ideals like organized religion, patriarchy, nationalism, and expansionism.
>>2615638I've reached the opinion that all political pundits and bloggers should be sent to work camps.
>>26163991:40 had me lmaoing
>>2616506>Dunno why but hardcore Stalinoids have this obsession with treating being gay into an inherently fascist trait.I'm sure it doesn't have anything to do with gay people per se. Says more about them. Suspect it's more about precarious social status and fear of losing it, anxiety about masculinity, and fear of being seen as weak. They need very clear binaries to function.
>>2616702Do you guys think that AES like Cuba or China has no border control? People out here really think that we live under communism and nation states have become obsolete
>>2616506>and now dickblast.Cockshott has been on that same shit for as long as he's been around. It's just new to you. He thinks lesbians are good though because he's a good feminist.
https://paulcockshott.wordpress.com/2017/08/29/class-and-the-lgtb-lobby/>I think that a plausible economic argument can be made for one of his key arguments – that the political gay movement expresses middle class and upper class interests. I will in this post try to pull together an argument to this effect. I will focus on the mean class position of homosexual men, and show that this puts them in the top 10% of the population, and that this economic position is not incidental, but is closely connected with the gay male mode of life. <Note the specificity, it does not apply to Lesbians. >>2616728Yeah i recognize that American border enforcement are racist and retarded, but i've seen quite a lot of people who are against the idea of border control itself and i'm talking about that. Sorry if it comes across as me doing copaganda of American cops
I've seen groypers saying that they take inspiration from Baudrillard and i think they fundamentally misunderstand him. Baudrillard is not saying that the Spectacle determines politics but that Spectacle obfuscates the reality on the ground which is the status quo reinforcing itself. Hence Gulf War never happened since its not a war but the status quo stabilizing itself against an emergent power. Or maybe they meant it literally and they recognize that behind all the pomps they made Groyperism and America First disguise the fact that they are merely arms of the status quo reasserting itself.
>>2616731>lesions are good who does not like a good lesbo-on-lesbo action?
>>2616747chuddie mass suicides incoming
>>2616747>chvddie is secretly a sub but would rather kill millions than admit itmany such cases
I just discovered this Made in Abyss anime/manga.
Gross.
>>2616402Thankfully, nope.
>>2616506>Dunno why but hardcore Stalinoids have this obsession with treating being gay into an inherently fascist trait.It has to do more with reactionary types denying their basic sexual desires over gays that just do what they desire. Boomer commies like Dickblast can't fathom the difference.
I, however, would like to add that in my opinion LGBT ideology is reactionary because it is identity, instead of histmat based.
The sooner comrade gayfags abandon LGBTQIA+ the sooner will they be ready to embrace communism and be embraced by the real movement.
>inb4 deranged westoid leftoids screeching about muh progressDon't care.
Are you a gay that is a productive worker, or are you a gay that is a parasite as laid down in Marx's Theories of Surplus(sy) Value?
Which is you, westoid """leftist?"""
>>2616840Very Muslim take, btw. When I worked in Uzbekistan macho faggot heterosexual male coworkers told me that lesbianism is pure while male homosexuality is haram….
>>2616974Ah if I start narrating all the retarded incel ultra-right conservative antiscientific takes I heard from my dear Muslim friends, I will have to create a whole new thread.
I believe I can propagandise and convert any
volk to socialism. But not Muslims. They are something else.
Saarrrr do not redeeeeeeem!!!!!
>In early December, two activists in India released three videos detailing the rise of India–Israel ties and the dangers they pose to ordinary Indians. The videos quickly went viral, amassing around 2.6 million views. They struck a nerve. The Hindu right responded with fury. This is the story of how the Hindu right attacked these two activists and tried to destroy their lives simply for raising questions about India–Israel ties and the warm embrace of Israeli soldiers in India.https://azadessa.substack.com/p/indian-activists-targeted-attacked-speaking-on-palestine>>2616996it is too late for Indian 'activists'. The fight should have intensified 10 years ago. Now it is too late, the Hindutva virus has taken hold of too many people.
They have a network of goons, who the masses sadly close their eyes on. While the masses themselves are not goons, their silence is tacit approval of the goons' actions. Similar to terrorist-infected islamic countries. When it's too late, it's too late. You can only sit and cry.
>>2616999>When it's too late, it's too late. You can only sit and cry.Jeetland is a polluted shithole anyway. And now that BJPigs have set their sights on giving a free hand to mining corporations to flatten the Aravalli range, it's only a matter of time that cow-belt Indians start dying of pollution and drought more than they already are.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cn5ln4wee7wo >>2617013Keep your venom for yourself, Pakistani dog.
Some of us here are able to oppose Hindutva without falling into /po/ tier 'jeet'-posting.
>>2616974Those types love trans porn too
>racism against Jeets is ok because uhh they hate Musalmans or something
>HOW DARE YOU CRITICIZE MY PEOPLE AS TREATLER DESPITE THE FACT THAT WE ARE LITERALLY THE GOLDEN BILLION THAT EXPLOITED THE ENTIRE WORLD DONT YOU KNOW HOW MANY LEFTIST MOVIE CRITIQUES HAVE WE CONTRIBUTED TO THE MOVEMENT
>>2617026
Brother shouldn't you be more concerned about Asim Munir literally dragging Pakistan into War on Terror 2.0 and reinstating the dictatorship than shitting on jeets? Genuine question
>>2617024
I'm not an Indian and I have a lot of hatred not only for Hindutva, but the Indian society more generally. That said, there is a limit beyond which we become just another /pol/.
Standards.
>all this anti-Indianism
saars..
>>2617040
you have reading comprehension problems.
Truly, India is beyond saving.
>>2617043>you have reading comprehension problems. Truly, India is beyond saving.
Hi, Westoid!
I am representing the "rest of the world" and I'd like to interject for a moment.
YOU DON'T MATTER, is my main message. You don't matter anymore – is my overarching message.
You are actively making our (third world, Imperialist-periphery) lives worse, you stupid shit.
So maybe allow us to breath before you dare to saNy whomst and whomst not get to speak a single thing.
>le speccctacccle thread
<its aboot who gives how much money to whoms't
Diamat is working, 100%™
>>2617083pay for attention in school
>>2617092
but sade's morality is just kantianism, but reversed as a diabolocal imperative, or evil as an end in itself. kant said this was impossible, since one must act in accordance with practical reason, if he possesses the faculty. in exploring this topic, i once read a hindu text which explained that all evil is conditional, since even the murderer may not murder himself, and so selfishness cannot be wholly evil, which paradoxically means that a truly unconditional evil would in a sense be pure virtuous, from the standpoint of practical reason, since it is unconditional of its object.
the only issue is that we must inevitably separate evil from selfish pleasure, and replace passion with the rational will toward universal suicide. i suppose schopenhauer developed kant toward this direction in his own way.
>>2617286Epstein literally aura farmed his way into the halls of power. He had nothing to contribute. He was a fucking moron. He just turned out to be a useful frontman for one of the pedo rings.
>>2617286jeff was a handsome guy
>>2617286What’s up with BrAP affiliated accounts defending Epstein? Is it just contrarianism or are they fr
>>2616969I'm a gayfag, and I would say that, overall, I agree with you. I've never been comfortable with identity as this externalization of your internal life. I want the part of me that the world sees the most to be my actual meaningful contributions ton, removed from who I am as a person as much as possible. It's a large part of why I was attracted to anonymous imageboards to begin with. To be clear, it's not as if I think you shouldn't be gay in public; if you're in a relationship, people are going to witness that relationship sooner or later. But the place to "be yourself" is at home and when with friends, not in public and at work.
My beef with the ACP guys, as you kind of touched on, is that they go too far in the other direction. My beef with them isn't even their stances on gay stuff, because I do know that much of the party leadership, including Haz, isn't actually (fully) anti-gay. No, my problem is that they're obsessed with this autistic Andrew Tate teenager's idea of masculinity, and it's fucking exhausting to deal with.
>>2617312You make a good point.
If only the ACP was a lil bit more toned down in their 'gorillaness', they would have 3-4 times as many members.
There are many people who find the woke idpol bs in 'leftist' spaces in the USA cringe and libby, but cannot go into ACP's arms because they overdo their chuddiness.
The main issue I believe is that Haz is the leader. Haz is a great entertainer. He should be like the Number 3 of the party. Not the boss, no.
I remember Zherka once made a vanilla meme with him and Destiny I believe and Haz went ape shit lol. Zherka just made this silly meme, and Haz saw it as a personal 'betrayal' and bitched to him for hours. He is a too childish to lead a party.
>>2615931Cockshott is a Scottish boomer from Glasgow. These people do not like 'pufters' and aren't afraid to let you know. The fact that they are nazis is just icing on the cake. For our generation it's lolifags and furries (dog fuckers) instead of gay and trans people who are hated nazis.
>>2617358So you are telling me lolis and furries will be accepted in the future?
>>2617384Seriously though why are pretty much all caught dogfuckers in the USA white chicks?
Worse, it's often attractive white chicks who could get (human) dick very easily. Why go for the doggo lmao
>>2617323Haz's underlying problem is his inability to appeal to a wider audience than the one he already has.
Haz is, all things considered, a very repulsive man. He has a very strange way of speaking that makes him sound mentally impaired, behaves very erratically, is prone to violent outbursts, and takes everything extremely seriously. To be sure, he's an interesting character, but he's not the kind of guy most people want to have as a friend. You wouldn't want to go out for drinks with him, because you'd be afraid he'd embarrass you and/or start picking fights with people.
Beyond that, his content itself simply isn't very accessible. On one hand, his stuff is way too bookish for it to be easily shared on social media, and provides no real entry point for people who aren't already interested in his specific brand of politics. Your average joe isn't going to watch a clip of a guy ranting about the rational kernel he claims to have extracted from Dugin. And on the other hand, his stuff isn't polished enough or focused enough to appeal to the kind of people who watch/listen to video essays and podcasts.
I'm not saying that there's zero appeal to Haz, his stuff can definitely be entertaining, but he's forever destined to be niche, to appeal to a small crowd of people who find him highly relatable, but nobody else.
>>2617471The Heeler family are pmc labor aristocrats and will have their wealth liquidated come the Australian revolution inshallah
why am i here
i could've gotten really into undertale, then deltarune. i could have an encyclopedic knowledge of fanfiction or hardware quirks of old computer systems or the early years of simpsons shitposting. i could calculate your homestuck classpect from memory. i could upload every individual frame of every arthur episode to deviantart over the course of 80 years of my life. i cannot imagine a world in which i am not wasting my life, but my god, to have wasted it taking leftism more seriously than the average twitter retard only to realize they've got the last laugh after all is a low blow.
here i am, asking the worst possible people for advice on escaping imageboards: the other prisoners. i hear one guy is digging a tunnel with a spoon he carved himself… from a bigger spoon. what would it matter. the cells and the doors aren't even locked, it's just fear of the unknown and starting again from zero when you've got grey hairs that guarantee i'll be posting the same nonsense a decade from now. someone shank me please.
>>2617471i'd tell you all about white women and dogs, but this is a special case, since the dog is anthropomorphic i think she's more of a proto-furry
>>2617472I don't think you make that much working at an airport or in academia. but who knows, maybe Bandit has a lucrative deal with the Zionist entity
>>2617618I think Furr's a little weird but the more libs froth at the mouth over what he chooses to write about to more inclined I am to feel sympathetic to him
>quasi-Putinists>post-Stalinist Stalinism>basement-dwelling Dengist>high-woke Stalinistbangers
>>2617471What in the actual fuck?
>>2617312>My beef with the ACP guys, as you kind of touched on, is that they go too far in the other direction.Another anon said that they're a fascist org for people who wouldn't joint Patriot Front or such a group. What's interesting to me is how their theory of praxis is to do the same stuff that they do, like zero-risk charity or park cleanup activities along with gay bootcamps. They also post pics of a lot of things they do on the internet. ACP also does this and is like "ACP did thing." The ACP also wears their symbol on their foreheads like Patriot Front does.
ML groups don't usually act this way. Like they might wear t-shirts but even when it's "the group" doing the thing, it's not "the group" but the "people, "a mass org, or "Chicago stands up for…" or "workers" or "students." This has ideological content because the class is supposed to be the historical actor while the party is an instrument or expression of the class.
>>2616455DNA doesn’t decide to mutate towards a goal, mutations only persist if they’re already viable in material practice. Just like the state can stabilize, suppress, or accelerate relations that already function, but it can’t author new ones by intention alone.
>Ownership and managementFormally, yes, managers aren’t owners. But when a political apparatus determines allocation of surplus, directs production, and reproduces itself through that control, it functions as a collective owner regardless of legal title. Class isn’t a moral category or a contract, it’s a relation to economic surplus reproduction.
>lower stage socialismCalling it uneven development doesn’t resolve the issue. If wage labour, commodity production and accumulation remain the internal logic, then what’s unevenly developing is still capitalism under administrative coordination. Historical transitions didn’t just contest politically, they incubated materially distinct practices inside the old system. That’s what’s missing here.
The disagreement isn’t state vs no state.
It’s whether political control can substitute for absent material relations, or whether it can only consolidate what already exists.
>>2617658>because the class is supposed to be the historical actor while the party is an instrument or expression of the class.false nuke
<The class presupposes the party, because to exist and to act in history it must possess a critical doctrine of history and an aim to attain in it. In the only true revolutionary conception, the direction of class action is delegated to the party.
<The degeneration of the social-democratic parties of the Second International and the fact that they apparently became less revolutionary than the unorganised masses, are due to the fact that they gradually lost their specific party character precisely through workerist and “labourist” practices. That is, they no longer acted as the vanguard preceding the class but as its mechanical expression in an electoral and corporative system, where equal importance and influence is given to the strata that are the least conscious and the most dependent on egotistical claims of the proletarian class itself. https://www.marxists.org/archive/bordiga/works/1921/party-class.htm >>2617658>Patriot Front or such a group. What's interesting to me is how their theory of praxis is to do the same stuff that they do,You type so many words, but you are 100% wrong. ACP went to Nasrallah funeral. ACP active on all anti-imperialist fronts. Your line is clearly imperialist and sectarian
>>2617682>>2617658 was talking about ML groups specifically. Bordiga was an ultra who thought that the Soviet Union was capitalist. I think it's safe to say that his opinions are completely irrelevant when talking about the goings on of ML parties.
>>2617685 >>2617697The anti-imperialist front is very broad and grows daily. Again, you fail to slander Communist Party with non-sequitur
>>2617708Your posts are 99% quote mining books that everyone here has already read and 1%
>Wrong wrong 100% wrong You are Evil devil Revision can't Comprehend glorious China you Slander The communist party revisionist dogSo my question is, why the fuck do you post here? Your posts contain absolutely zero (0) worthwhile information that the people on this site don't already know.
>>2617708That's not a non sequitur. You said that they're anti imperialist because they attended Nasrallah's funeral. He demonstrated that far right political parties do similar things, meaning your proposition that the ACP is somehow different because they attended his funeral holds no water
>>2617696Both Lenin and Stalin acknowledged that the Soviet union was capitalist you retard
>>2617748Lenin and Stalin can be wrong anon
>>2617748The soviet union was capitalist?
>>2617312If only you were as much educated on China as you are on gay issues.
>>2617764What did he mean by this?
>>2617618Rockhill is a pseud but so is Budget Sebastian.
>>2617754Yes. State nationalization is still capitalism. Do you think capitalism is when free market? Capitalism is defined by commodity production, wage labour, the market, profit incentive etc.
The point of ML states was to rapidly develop the productive forces in order to make communist organization possible. This never happened of course, but that was the idea.
>>2617618Seen that. Some say this is humor, satire. Very similar to these performances of
ironic racism that some people are really good at. Really intense, passionate performances. How long they can stay in character doing these, even while drunk. 🤔 Most people have a really hard time playing a totally different character while drunk. I digress. Or did I.
>>2617775>This never happened of courseIt's still happening right now, the process is still ongoing.
It's so funny how everyone thinks China is just normal liberal western capitalism but never look into exactly how their system works. They buy the Tienenmenn square bullshit and go "well, I guess the problem was uhhh the state/vanguardism/markets" or other anarchist talking points
>>2616506It's mainly because they are homophobic but we have to understand that Homosexuality as an identity much like Judaism is one uniquely selected to be compatible with Capitalism. Much like how Jews in the early modern era served as a key intermediary for financialization and usury (cohesive ethno-religious minorities often served this role, such as Jains in India), gay people served as good candidates for creating Symbolic Capitalists because homosexuals tend to be more affable, socially open, creative and do not have kids which means that a. wealth circulate in the community and b. a gay man can dedicate much more hours into work than his cis counterpart, resulting in faster promotions. This is why Cockshott often brought up gay people in discussion with CIA for example, he was touching on this relationship between gay people and the symbolic capitalists
Of course, what is more surprising to me is the fact that Leftists are uncomfortable with Cockshott saying that. Leftoids looove to brand entire communities, religions and sexualities who disagree with them as reactionary imperialist blah blah blah. One would've thought that the Tankies would've eagerly embraced the "all gays are reactionary narrative", esp since it allowed you guys to undermine traditional LGBTQ groups
>>2617937Mods, permaban this duginoid.
Which flagposter do you agree with the most? Personally, I agree with most of Gay Nazi's posts
>>2617944I do like Gay Nazi. He's a cool guy.
>>2617944Gay Nazi is easily the most level headed and diplomatic effort poster here. I always stop and read their stuff
Anti imperialism is the worst product of imperialism and is also a sham and a humbug, a vehicle of reaction that diverts proletarian energies from class struggle and class terrain, or something.
>>2617937wtf is this drivel
>>2617937Can you use simpler language?
>>2617948The currently existing anti imperialist movement is based on the presumption that capital flight does not exist. At any moment, people like Musk and Bezos can pack up their bags and go to Russia.
>>2617950True enough. I've mentioned also that gays are also selected for symbolic capitalist profession because gay people are creative, socially affable and open minded. Gay people are "cute", so to speak, and cuteness is a sign of apex lifeforms. It is not for nothing that gay people often call robust gay males as "bears", and bears are apex cute predators
>>2617968Leftypollers will unleash their wrath but gay and trans people are blessings for the market. The most commodity gulping folks out there.
Why and how, that's the for the big brains to discuss. I just remarked this.
>>2617662>DNA doesn’t decide to mutate towards a goal,In the same way humans purposefully genetically modify organisms, Vanguard parties are like an injected virus that mutates the state DNA and so adjusts the larger economic organism that it is a part of.
>mutations only persist if they’re already viable in material practice.Socialism and communism is viable in material practice. Unless you think it isn't?
>it can’t author new ones by intention alone.It isn't "intention alone" when the working class is what puts those intentions into action.
>it functions as a collective owner regardless of legal title. So you do think management is ownership. If you are right then a "slave" overseer is functionally the owner, therefore he is no longer part of the slave class.
> If wage labour, commodity production and accumulation remain the internal logic, then what’s unevenly developing is still capitalism under administrative coordination.While historical ML states should have gone even further than they did, eliminating the bourgeoisie as a class and workers legally owning the MoP collectively was a step in the right direction no matter the other capitalist aspects of the economy that were left over. And while the various organizational weakness of ML states held them back the fact they got the farthest from capitalism for a longer period of time than any other group shows it's potential.
>It’s whether political control can substitute for absent material relationsThat's how you want it framed but the disagreement is whether the state can be part of the process of transforming material relations or not. My argument is that a revolutionary state can be used as the central part of the transformation from capitalism to communism. That the states ability to command makes it the perfect organizer of the working class who can transform material relations. Just like how altered DNA can tell cells to start changing the body.
>>2617377obvious nazi degenerate.
>>2617384see embed. White women (not the only demographic) doing it are just furries.
>>2617382no retard the rape of children and animals and will never be accepted. The (bourgeois) gay rights movement tried this bullshit. Based renaming of the USS Harvey Milk (creeping on a 14 year old.) Even the CPUSA was venerating a NAMBLA member in their official literature. Disgraceful that the rainbow movement set up regular gay people to be lumped in with these freaks and criminals.
>>2618039Mods permaban this man.
State is not part of material relations tho. You guys are just saying that it is. Why?
>>2618086the slanderous depiction of white women as animal rapists is simply perverse sakaism. The vast majority of white women are members of the working class and are not sex criminals. The failures of communists to propagandize to white women are stark and meaningful (hard to get these girls to read about the Pareto frontier of money cartels), but that doesn't mean you can just call them all dog fuckers.
Now, the universities, especially the post-feminists do teach the dog fuckers (the Cyborg Manifesto comes to mind), just like they teach Milk and Foucault and NAMBLA members. White women are the majority of university graduates, especially in the humanities, so they are exposed to this bourgeois trash and may believe it to be legitimate by way of the university's counter revolutionary science.
>>2617658Saying
they are picking up garbage fascistically is a bit weak analysis IMHO. They do have aspects of personality cult (which is not specifically fash, it's bad enough shit all by itself) and some LaRouche-coded things like REEEing about British banksters. (Again, something smelling LaRouche is bad enough smell by itself. You get lost in details if you think it's necessary to link LaRouche thought to similar patterns in thought of German or Italian fascists, and it will never look fascist enough for some people. So I just point at how goofy and paranoid it is.)
>>2618271Why are you so sensitive when British bankers are attacked?
>>2618172>>2618191The girl I got chlamydia from told me she fucked a dog one time. True story.
>>2618284was the dog hot?
New frontiers in patsoc and magacom retardation:
They were glazing this guy as a based noided free thinker
Then this video drops and not a peep:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPrecJHUOUsI encourage to watch at least til the middle.
It's funny that they didn't see this rank larouchism coming at all.
Prof Jiang is neither a Professor nor a Chinese.
>>2618323Wtf is larouchism and why do usanons keep bringing him up
>>2618323>R. CamIsn't that the retarded wrecker who started the whole 'Baristas aren't proles' discourse?
>>2618325Former trot who became a conspiracy theorist of the "financial elites subverting wholesome big chungus industrial capitalerino" type
>>2618323>>2618323He's so stupid too lmao. I remember he first showed up in my algo back around the Trump X Iran stuff earlier this year. He directly stated with confidence a prediction for American ground troops in Iran lmao.
He rejects Marx directly and has a video on it, and I think replaces it with some analysis or the teleology of abrahamic religious factions fighting in the middle east as the strongest force pushing events forward.
He's essentially a midwit sophist (like textbook definition of sophist) who thinks he's a genius and has created a loose secular pseudo-cult.
I honestly respect the grind and the grift
>>2618333Are you talking about Jiang or Cam?
>>2618323>Professor Jiang explains how the alliance between the British Empire and the Sabbatean Frankists created modernity.>created (((modernity)))I hate nationalists.
>>2618338I wish the totaliarian horror stories about the see see pee were real so that this freak would get gulag'd and his organs harvested
>>2618201it was more about "women like this didn't exist in the olden days."
I'm probably gonna leave leftypol for a while. This.embrace of "white women fuck dogs" from Cockshott's rejection of bourgeois homosexuals is a bit much for me.
>>2618402Not particularly relevant but the schizo that popularized "white women fuck dogs" killed himself in october. Common Filth, I dont know if anyone here was an 8chan chud in 2015-2016
Anons whats the newest drama
>>2618335Jiang obviously but Logo is also retard in his own right.
This thread is so fucking weird man. Id leave this place for hexbear but I cant stand the transhumanist hugbox that bans youfor being rude
>>2618432>hexbearFirst time I heard of that
>>2618432hexbear is just bluesky for DSA members, the cool trans folks are on niche twitter circles
>>2618432This is the containment thread for people obsessed with the lives of online nobodies like haz, hinkle, bad panda, Agent Kochinski, maupin, etc. How would it be normal?
>>2618287She was white, yes lol
>>2618301She didn't say
>>2618284I'm more of a cat person
We need a NAMBLA for White women and dogs.
>>2618441>soviet soldiers a century ago with no internet had no issues getting itDid they really? I doubt it. It seems nobody gets it because consensus on what it is, is the most elusive thing for communists otherwise there wouldn't be 10000 "tendencies."
>>2618443<source: vibes and auralol ok
>otherwise there wouldn't be 10000 "tendencies."communism isnt about ideology and all those tendencies are just petit bourgeois taking advantage of the working class, almost like its not enough to just call yourself le marxist
>>2618441Ive noticed a few give themselves weird credentials about how they were always communists. Logo once tweeted that he was a stalinist in high school like that puts him on the leftie pedestal. (not true anyway he was an NRx dork)
just over all weird status seeking people that dont really care if the lives of workers improve or not.
>>2618450<source: vibes and aura>lol okWhat is your source?
>>2618452try reading the bolsheviks before 1920 maybe 👍
>>2618457What does that have to do with your claim?
>>2618441Clear mockery of every Marxless "left" liberals with zionist and ukraine flags who criticize the Communist Party as evidenced by the rage in comments
>>2618462did these MLs just fly over your house?
>>2618463Did your father molest you as a child?
>>2618462>join discussion about USSR>get mad it's about the USSR>implying MLlmfao you are actually braindead
>>2618478You made a claim, got mad someone made a counter claim without a source, yet you refuse to provide one.
>>2618479>yet you refuse to provide oneyou are illiterate my man, but by all means keep yapping about how "nobody gets marxism" (projection)
>>2618488No you are the illiterate one who doesn't get marxism. Source: Read Marx.
The reality of mods allowing 'white women fuck dogs' posting, the posting of bestiality porn, sakaist degeneracy, and nazi apologia vs getting banned if you critique trans people or jews is because of their own personal romantic experiences, pornography habits, and theological ideologies. Fuck this website.
>>2618049The state somehow exists outside and above material relationships?
>>2618039>Okay the DNA parallel is getting a bit ridiculous but neverthelessYes people can intervene in biological processes, even then interventions only succeed when they activate capacities that already exist materially. You don’t author an organism by command, you select, amplify, or suppress tendencies that are already viable. That’s precisely my point about social relations.
>Socialism and communism is viable in material practice. Unless you think it isn't?I believe it is, but you are confusing state control with new economic relations.
>It isn't "intention alone" when the working class is what puts those intentions into action.Intentions enacted through existing capitalist forms (wage labor, accumulation, commodity production) still reproduce those forms. The issue isn’t who holds power, but what social relations that power operates through. Why do we need to use capitalist mechanisms of organization to facilitate a supposedly more advanced and more efficient economic system? (Besides development of productive forces, which I'm assuming we both agree are well developed enough already)
>So you do think management is ownership. If you are right then a "slave" overseer is functionally the owner, therefore he is no longer part of the slave class. No I’m saying that when an apparatus controls surplus extraction and allocation independently of producers, it functionally occupies the position of owner, regardless of legal form. A slave overseer doesn’t determine the use of surplus, a state planning bureaucracy does.
>ML states got farthest from capitalism.They got farthest politically, not economically. They suppressed private capital but preserved value production, wage labor, and accumulation rather than abolished. Distance from capitalism isn’t measured by who commands, but by whether capital’s internal logic is broken.
>The state can be the central part of transforming material relationsThe state can be part of the process, but only as an expression of already emerging relations, not as their substitute. Once political command is tasked with compensating for what does not yet exist materially, it stops being transitional and becomes a new stabilizer of capital under another form.
>>2618577vgh vvhere is the bvll?
>>2618577>It's bestiality porn, fine art.>It's European aristocratic cultural heritage and artistic tradition. >You can find these works in the most prestigious aristocratic and bourgeois museums in the world you fucking prude. >I bet you want to put figleafs on statues too because the human form is the same as depicting women fucking dogs. A Frankist aristocrat zoophile does not represent the European working class, its aesthetics, or its culture.
>>2618577how old is this painting and why does it make me hard? very few old paintings make me hard
>>2618610>how old is this painting1908
>>2618172>Cockshott uses the Weberian notion of class, not the Marxian oneDoes he? I've read his blog, and he seems to have a Marxian conception of class.
>>2618402Lol
>>2618460Get a job
>>2618466At the end of the day, they're really the American Russiophile Party. They like modern Russia and they want the US to be like it. They went for the "communist" not because they believe in communism but because it rolls off the tongue easier.
>>2618612god damn it's good, victorian european high class had it good
>>2618618she only goons because she is too alienated for sex or probably has bad experiences or a break up, eating and fucking all day is the prime human experience and no ammount of moralism is gonna convince me otherwise.
>>2617717ACP attend Nasrallah funderal. Eurofascists did not. therefore it is non-sequiter. The gay nazi is known zionist so of course he slander anti-zionist Communist Party
greatest theorist of this generation tbh
>>2618625give a lumpenprole a few cigars and some champagne and you have yourself an army of the creme de la creme of liberal thinkers
<White people joking about "Donkey Shows" and Mexican women fucking donkeysThis is fine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donkey_show>WWFDsNOOOO YOU CAN'T SAY THAT! THAT'S SO HECKING RACIST AND MISOGYNISTIC!
>A donkey show is a type of live sex show in which a woman engages in bestiality with a donkey,[1][2] which, according to urban legend and some works of fiction, were once performed in the Mexican border city of Tijuana, particularly in the mid-20th century. >>2618641yall mfs not ready for marco bouchard thought
>>2618630Ah yes, how could I be so foolish!? By attending this one specific funeral of a non-communist theocratic leader, they are now 1000% confirmed to be nothing like the fascist groups that have done similar things because they didn't do this particular one! It's all so clear to me now, thank you. I will now pray to the glory of Haz Al Ghoul at least five times per day!
>>2618652> one specific funeral of a non-communist theocratic leader, they are now 1000% confirmed to be nothing like the fascist groups that have done similar thingsYou speak like a zionist. You slander the Communist Party as fascist because they are vanguard of anti-imperialism.
No other amerikan Communist Parties went. No other amerikan left party does such anti-imperialist things. All glory to the Communist Party.
>>2618660>No other amerikan left party does such anti-imperialist thingsBut plenty of right ones do! Check out
>>2617697 >>2618672What are they even trying to go for here?
>>2618692MAGAts are abandoning the sinking ship
>>26181912.5 songs
>ylos late 2010's twitter mimi
>>2618707same as anyone else pumping out ai slop, trying to corner a niche on the market
>>2618511I feel sorry for this guy, he seemed very nice the few times I talked to him on discord a couple years ago.
>>2618585>You don’t author an organism by command, you select, amplify, or suppress tendencies that are already viable.Socialism is viable. Meaning it's within our grasp right now if only the workers reach out their hands.
>you are confusing state control with new economic relations.Not at all. While the state is a key mechanism of worker coordination it is the workers are the ones who create new economic relations.
>The issue isn’t who holds power, but what social relations that power operates through. Why do we need to use capitalist mechanisms of organization to facilitate a supposedly more advanced and more efficient economic system?Who holds power is the issue. Capitalists hold power and so suppress socialism and stop the transformation into a new mode.
>it functionally occupies the position of owner, regardless of legal form.While I understand the dejure legal form can be a cover the defacto power relation even under the USSR upper management could be and were kicked out. They were not the same people all the time and they had no means to stay in their position. They were also all part of the same class. They didn't personally own the factories or land and could not pass anything down to their children or family. They legally and defacto were not a separate class from everyone else.
>A slave overseer doesn’t determine the use of surplusSlaves in ancient societies could run households and determine the use of surplus. Slaves could get lots of prestige and personal wealth too. These slaves were bureaucrats. Even so they were still slaves.
>They got farthest politically, not economically. Even if that is so it's more than anyone else. So there is something there that is above most other leftist tendency and that is Vanguardism.
What I'm confused about it why you so strongly believe socialism can only happen while under current capitalist control but for some reason you believe that if ML states took over it could not happen under them. If you believe ML states are just capitalist anyway and socialism will happen under capitalism anyway, then it shouldn't matter to you at all.
>>2618511I think haz is consciously grifting, but that logo guy is genuinely, sincerely retarded
everything's computer
I am genuinely surprised by how popular Charlie Kirk memes are and continue to be. I thought the dominant reaction would be "political violence bad, we need to come together regardless of politics, that man had a family" etc etc but no, everyone is just spitting on his corpse day after day.
>>2618942Everything cannot be computer
>>2618767Interesting analysis. I wonder what the cause is for the difference in tactics.
>>26188431. I'm going to need a source on that
2. That's some of the most retarded, unmaterial slop I've ever read.
>>2618941>I think haz is consciously griftingHe's outright said that he's corrupt (using that exact word) and can be bought, with the only stipulation being that he must be allowed to call people "retarded" for some stupid fucking reason.
>>2618843>ach mein leiben! I am und homosexual! now I must hate der juden!????
asmongold be like yeah based
>>2618975I realized that the reason he brings up having a dead rat as an alarm clock and generally being a disgusting slob is because he's marketing himself as being an average slub and not a rich media elite.
>>2618647stfu sakaist gonzolite. No one said all Mexican women fuck donkeys. If you listened to what they said, it was obviously tragic human trafficking led by cartels, i.e. US intelligence agencies. We will never accept brownoids brushing off the sakaist slander against European women with 'what about white men talking about donkey shows.'
>>2618944It's funny to see rightoids cope and tell themselves they're totally the ones making all the memes and it's all good spirited fun because as well all know the left can't meme!!! Same thing happened when Vance memes were going around.
>>2618037Reactionary
Women hold up half the sky
Put him in the dunce cap and shame him publicly
>>2618323does anyone know how I can report someone to the CPC for disseminating nazi propaganda
>>2618046How about you stop being so spooked my dude. "Degeneracy" is a spook and isn't the cause of empires falling. Cockshott is a irrelevant Anglo boomer.
>>2618037>>2619050>gays are reactionary because they are incel virgins who have never had real sex with a womenat last i truly see
>>2618961Made a mistake. The term I meant to use was "dual power," not "dual state" (that's actually a term historians use for Nazi rule, which I'll get back to in a second). Dual power is a Leninist term to refer to the soviets, which were alternative institutions that co-existed in Russia after the February Revolution but before the October Revolution. In China you had soviets in revolutionary base areas that were set up and which waged violent class struggle in the countryside. The Black Panther Party strategy was a dual power one in which they'd build revolutionary-democratic institutions in the hood which would push out the state, so aspirationally black people would run their own schools (for example), but that didn't progress far because they were destroyed by the state.
What fascists seem to do is try to augment the repressive powers of the existing state. They might be in tension with it, they do get arrested by the police from time to time. But every communist revolution iirc resulted in widespread destruction of the existing state's institutions and the development of new institutions. The state for Marxists is not a neutral force but has a particular class stamp. In Italy, ᴉuᴉlossnW was basically appointed to lead the government and then subordinated the fascist party to the existing state's institutions (the fascist party after the takeover had little autonomy, interesting enough). In Germany, there was the dual state where existing state institutions continued to function with the Nazi Party mirroring them.
It's like how there was the Wehrmacht but the Nazis also created parallel Nazi military units with the Waffen SS. In the Soviet Union, the army was the party's army, which was a revolutionary army.
But I think you can see this even in how fascist groups carry themselves or how they dress. They will literally dress up like police officers and LARP as them, or try to act as what they think the police "should" be doing (repressing leftists harder). It's kind of like accelerationism in a way. The state is too weak, too liberal, too restrained and not epic and based enough, and they don't like the fact that there are laws that restrain the state's powers to "clean up" the streets of the commies and the scum.
Anyways, when I would check in on ACP stuff, they would do things like participate in a turkey giveaway charity event in Washington state involving the police. It's like, is your job as a communist to shore up the system like that? Because that's what you're basically doing. But it's also in the aesthetics, which I think are a constituent part of political ideologies and systems. Their members will post images of riot police (Russian ones) wearing black with their logo stamped on the image. That is alerting my spidey senses.
They express some ambiguity about certain positions. Like Haz will say "we're already living in socialism" which, on the one hand, could be a provocative way to say that capitalism socializes production and isn't that interesting??? But if you take it literally, what they're saying is that the U.S. *is* socialist, so they have a theoretical basis for repressing enemies of the state. Which they identify as leftists (who are their main enemy, as they've said many times).
This is bizarre, and I'm not sure how much of this is wholly conscious. It might result from a confusion about their actual situation. Or they identify with
ruling communist parties and they think "we should act like that." Like, yeah, the Soviet Union had political police whose job was to repress enemies of the socialist state. But it's just flat-out retarded to be like "communist states had police, so therefore police = communist practice." But it might also be that these guys also have far-right sympathies and Haz also likes to read that stuff and he mixes it in.
>>2619066>cockshott irrelevant boomerCockshott's one pubic hair has more relevance than all users on thos board combined
>>2619404Zionist occupied brain
>>2619404behold turd worldism's final form
>>2619404BE is already openly antisemitic, no?
>>2619404Not wrong tbh. I've been saying this forever, let the retardo americans believe their government is controlled by the zionists, if you ever try to talk them out of it it's basically impossible, and i suspect that if you did they'd simply stop caring because it's only important to them due to the perception they're being controlled, not the you know, horrific violence and so on inflicted on others.
>>2619429It's not his anti-semitism retard, it's theirs. the yanks.
>>2619434so BE isnt antisemitic, then?
>>2619429How is BE antisemitic?
>>2619424He is capitulating to the /USApol/ position tho
>>2619404All of these "Why isn't everyone else doing direct action for me" posts are the dumbest shit on Earth.
BE is part of a group of people who makes comfy-living money from yammering into a microphone all day. He's a fucking streamer parasite, and he's bitching that people who actually have to work for a living aren't doing praxis for him.
Fuck off, BE, you stop being a streamer, pick up a gun, and do something yourself instead of whining that your audience of depressed self-hating burgers won't do it for you.
>watch some slop video essay about videogames
>"dude lenin wasn't so bad. stalin though?? that man was hitler 2.0"
>close video instantly
It's so tiresome
>>2619541>>"dude lenin wasn't so bad. stalin though?? that man was hitler 2.0"sounds like the average nafoid on this website
>>2619623Him and BE look like brothers
My tumblr got deleted (p ; w;)p
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