Also, shelter my 4chan refugee ass UwU.
(Damn, how long should the body text be? Holy wall of text. What if I want to sound laconic and concise ?)
Should I really be writing an essay for every thread?
>>2225819Vegans are retards
>production of vegetables entails>toxic pesticides and herbicides>mass genocide of pests and insects>vegetables themselves get covered in blood shit and piss of pests and insects>many vegetables actually cause inflammation >farming destroys habitats for animals and insects >lots of farms pay workers below minimum wage(essentially modern day slave wages)Vegans are so delusional and up their own asses they don't even look into the process food grade plant life goes through. They just pat themselves on the back that they aren't consuming meat which literally is part of the reason as to why we evolved our brains and we're able to advance.
Veganism I've slowly come to conclude becomes a mental illness cause alot of them don't know how to supplement well enough to not become nutritionally deficient which leads to decreased brain activity
>>2225819>uwuDon't be a faggot here.
Also, vegans are pathetic.
>>2225885where do you think the majority of the crops go ?
Spoiler alert: to feed the livestock with 9/10 of energy lost in conversion.
Not only are omnivores less ethical for their dead animal consumption, but also for their cataclysmic agricultural wastfulness.
Feel stupid yet ?
>>2225885>consuming meat which literally is part of the reason as to why we evolved our brains and we're able to advance.It was thanks to cooked starch (every early civilization kickstarted thanks to that), you know, wheat, maize, rice etc. Yours hasn’t evolved enough to grasp this yet.
> alot of them don't know how to supplement well enough to not become nutritionally deficient which leads to decreased brain activityYou may have a point here, I admit.
Although it really goes both ways with omnivores clogging their brain arteries with cholesterol and quite literally becoming meatards
>>2226123Proles are just as i(f not more) pathetic.
Vegans at least contribute to saving animals.
Proles are THE animals and you can’t even save yourselves from the billionairs that farm you.
>>2226545>Spoiler alert: to feed the livestock with 9/10 of energy lost in conversion.Lol what? Where are you getting this math's from?
>Not only are omnivores less ethical for their dead animal consumption, but also for their cataclysmic agricultural wastfulness.Nani?
>Feel stupid yet ?No
>>2226552>pic related>posts about dairy and not meat consumption >It was thanks to cooked starch (every early civilization kickstarted thanks to that), you know, wheat, maize, rice etc. Yours hasn’t evolved enough to grasp this yetIt was after meat helped us grow the mental capacity for agriculture that we moved onto cooked starch.
>Although it really goes both ways with omnivores clogging their brain arteries with cholesterol and quite literally becoming meatardsA healthy balanced diet is all I advocate. Cutting out meat completely I think is retarded but so is going all meat.
We've evolved to be omnivores(albeit poor ones requiring cooking)
I understand the desire to not hurt animals but basically this
>>2225885if there was an easier and less harmful way of getting the nutrients I get from meat I'd do it, but there isn't.
>>2226990Fried zucchini and mushrooms goes hard.
>>2226991I didn't say it had anything to do with communism.
>>2225819all vegans are nazis
all 'green' parties are nazis
the proletarian eats meat and gets great pleasure from seeing sulphur dioxide being spit into the atmosphere from the People's Steel Foundry
>>2227127Explain.
>>2227121For real, people will complain about price of groceries going up while ignoring all the cheap healthy food they could be eating instead of steaks.
>>2227129Ok? Are those two things contradictory?
>>2227146Pretty sure to the average person beating dogs to death for fun is different than killing an animal for consumption.
>inb4 philosophyIdc.
>>2226545I think you are missing the evolutionary perspective. Plant eaters spend most of their days eating. That cow is spending all day converting calories from low quality to high quality (in the thermodynamic sense).
I am familiar with the argument that wheat and other cereals made the modern human species; but the arguments in that direction I've seen neglect the lack of fracturing of grain heads of cereal crops - something evolutionary driven by farming.
Yes farming was an amazing technical innovation and was so clearly superior to hunter gathering that the tech spread before the crops evolved into their modern form. But it is almost certain that animal husbandry was practiced hand in hand with early farming tech.
>>2227367>I actively support the Nazi party. Does doing that make me a chauvinist?Lol, yes? Not any more than supporting any other party, fwiw.
>Is stopping doing that, and expecting other to follow, make me a bourgeois reformist?How is refusing to participate in electoralism reformism?
>>2225885>>farming destroys habitats for animals and insects>lots of farms pay workers below minimum wageThese two seem to be arguments against eating food in general.
>>2226552>>consuming meat which literally is part of the reason as to why we evolved our brains and we're able to advance.>It was thanks to cooked starch (every early civilization kickstarted thanks to that)Think earlier than civilization. Animals that hunt other animals tend to have bigger brains.
>pic<carnivore diet<sticks of butterRIP butterflys
uwu >>2228670What a fucking moronic argument is that, having access to clean drinking water isnt strictly proletarian issue either you fucking retard but its obviously an issue socialists have a stance on.
>>2228669Try introspecting why.
>>2226933>We've evolved to be omnivores(albeit poor ones requiring cooking) If you can’t eat meat raw ,you aren’t a REALLY an an “evolved” omnivore.
You cheated your way into omnivory with cooking.
>>2228670This.
It’s a panclassist issue.
>>2228725If people aren't vegetarian they don't automatically die after 3 days whereas if they don't have water they will die.
Water is a proletarian NEED.
Veganism is a petite bourgeois HOBBY.
>>2228789Yes? Did I deny that animals die? Do you even have an argument you fucking retard?
>>2228794>It's stoicism to point out that every human REQUIRES water to survive but doesn't require veganism to surviveFuck off retard.
>>2227180Veganism is not at all an issue related to the working class. This is unlike LGBT, women's rights, ethnic minorities and other minority struggles, which are pressingly important to the working class. Trying to tie veganism with working class politics is unironically identity politics, because there is nothing inherently tieing them. Vegans are not an oppressed minority. This is something we should be working out once we have socialism, not before then.
>>2228337Animal liberation is 100% a psyop.
>>2228813humans are different than other animals, and therefore eating them is >morally justified
but unironically
ethics are for humans, animal rights exist only insofar to promote the good of society
there's a good chance not mistreating animals also reflects to not mistreating your fellow man
go tell some mongolian steppe nomad that he's not allowed to drink horse milk because the horse didn't consent to being milked
>>2228883Explain how.
>>2228880If they dont know than it hardly breaks any principles, does it?
>>2228882There are vegan cosmetics you know.
>>2228885what you posted:
>I oppose the meat industryveganism:
>I oppose the use of any and all animal products >>2228892I already made a distinction between necessary evil and evil. Factory farming is an atrocity, breeding sickly animals whose entire life is suffering is atrocity, and I dont want to actively contribute to it, which I can do by simply buying food from different isle at the supermarket. It is healthier and cheaper, literally takes less effort than not doing it. Expecting people to not take their hearth medicine because it was tested on animals is unreasonable, cooking slightly different food is completely reasonable.
>>2228893>veganism can be accomplished without overthrowing capitalismUnlikely, which is why the veganism needs to be a political movement, not just individual dietary choice.
Anyway, I am done having the same argument over and over again, with people who keep disingenuously repeating the same talking points no matter how many times they were already addressed. Like half a year ago I posted an article about veganism and communism here, reposting it in case anyone bothers to read it.
>>2229002Seitan isnt. Neither is soy meat. Legumes are far cheaper.
>>2228963All right, so what should vegans say or do to convince
you to go vegan. Or adopt plant-based diet, whatever you want to call it.
>>2229040me personally? not all that relevant, but:
>make meat more expensive>make plant-based things less expensive>make meat dishes from less meatwhere I'm from its headed in that direction socially and politically anyway, hopefully in the long term too
i'm not an ideological meat eater/animal product consumer, but a practical one - with the exception of special occasions
vegan fervour and individualisation however DOES breed ideological meat eaters which then raises opposition to even modest, common sense progress, hell even when the health authorities recommend eating less (red) meat for health reasons they get called the vegan mafia
going from advocating for veganism to advocating for plant-based diet allows you to avoid 95% of the retardation while achieving 95% of the reduction in animan exploitation
>>2228731>it’s middle school biology class knowledgeOh. Let's just ignore microbiomass and the ecosystem.
Everything is recycled efficiently regarding nature consumption. It's al the other toxic shit like man made chemicals like plastics and toxins that are the real issue
In our pursuit of a world free from oppression, we must confront the commodification of animals, which serves as a stark manifestation of capitalist exploitation. The industrial animal farming system not only inflicts suffering on sentient beings but also perpetuates environmental degradation and public health crises. As Engels posited, this industry exemplifies the metabolic rift—a disconnection between humanity and nature that capitalism exacerbates.
To forge a truly just society, we must advocate for the abolition of industrial animal farming and embrace plant-based diets as a means of healing this rift. By shifting our dietary practices, we can mitigate the risk of zoonotic diseases, such as COVID-19, which arise from the exploitation of animals. A collective movement toward veganism can serve as a powerful politicizing force, particularly for the youth, who are increasingly aware of the ethical and ecological implications of their choices.
However, we must be cautious of the pitfalls of lifestyle veganism, which can easily devolve into a form of consumerism that distracts from our revolutionary goals. It is essential to recognize that in some contexts, such as rural communities, sustainable animal husbandry may play a vital role in local economies and food systems. Thus, our approach must be nuanced, advocating for plant-based diets while respecting traditional practices that align with ecological sustainability.
Ultimately, the fight for animal liberation is inextricably linked to the struggle for human emancipation. By embracing a vegan ethos grounded in solidarity and justice, we can cultivate a healthier, more equitable working class. Let us unite in our commitment to dismantle oppressive systems, not only for the sake of animals but for the liberation of all beings. A total liberation.
Reading recommendation:
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/total-liberation-anonymous-english>>2229002I eat 200g of plant-based protein per day and spend less than 250$ per month for food. TVP, lentils, protein powder and tofu are my main sources.
>>2229098>vegan fervour and individualisation>going from advocating for veganism to advocating for plant-based dietI dont get what your argument is, you criticise vegans for individualisation in one sentence, and then argue they should stop being political and turn veganism into a mere dietary choice.
>make meat more expensive>make plant-based things less expensiveEating vegan already is less expensive.
>>2229256>individualisationas in "meat is murder!!!!!" etc. moral outrage directed at individuals who eat meat or wear fur/leather or whatnot
righteous indignation feels good but isn't always a good political strategy
presuming the objective is to actually reduce animal exploitation in the real world rather than to establish moral superiority, raging at people utilising animal products made out of animals already killed isn't it
my honest opinion is that bourgeois vegans should stay/become political vegans, proletarian vegans should treat it as a lifestyle choice and fight for and with their fellow workers instead
>Eating vegan already is less expensive.as meat becomes more expensive relatively, the less of it I eat
meat becoming a luxury is something im fine with
plant-based is prob even cheaper, I don't need any external supplements for example
>>2229336>at the very least a total abolition of factory farming, which considering that like 98% all meat production comes form it, effectively might as well be total abolishment of meat productiondoes not require veganism
>Nobody who eats meat is going to fight for veganismI feel like you're very close to a breakthrough
>>2229451abolition of factory farming is a far more palatable and achievable objective, and if it gets you close enough to the goal as to make no difference, why not lead with that?
even conservative and nazoid types idealise pictoresque small farms over factory farming
minimising/marginalising resistance is a precondition of political change
>>2229321What makes the plants grow?
BLOOD! BLOOD! BLOOD!
>>2229544I feel like ive been trolled
oh well
>>2229451we should not abolish production of meat. that's dumb as fuck. we should work to do it better instead.
are you stupid fucks really incapable of seeing that issues have more options than "delete it" and "change nothing"
reminder to non-hypocritically eat your migrant children fingers lost to meatpacking machinery btw
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/settlement-child-labor-dol-department-of-labor-2025/no ethical consumption under capitalism, so communists don't need to bother holding themselves to higher standards. Go rape a hooker while you're at it.
>>2229847YMMV, I'm speaking of common supermarket prices on food stuffs that are ready to cook.
You can probably make your own seitan with your picrel but it involved significantly more work to prepare.
Also this isn't an inherent property, western states subsidize meat production and there's a higher degree of automation in meat production. Also vegan protein sources are considered "wellness" products which have higher rates of profit.
>>2229873I make my own seitan. It is trivial. There is no way I would pay for store-bought.
You mix the gluten powder and some flavorings and perhaps a bit of baking soda, and add water to make a dough. Then you cut the dough into slices, and you boil it in a broth. Then you have a rather fun time pushing the dough back down into the boiling water as the expansion in the dough from the heat makes the pieces expand.
When you're done, you'll have a lot of seitan and a broth that works great for a soup base. I make some for sunday dinner and refrigerate it for perhaps a week. It costs very little.
>>2230058>>2230059I got here from 4chan dying thoughever.
If communism is about improving people's lives then it's not any different from whatever social democracy exists today, and not only that, it would mean communism is about helping all classes, not only the proletariat.
>>2225819"Meat populism" is something that is pervasive in capitalism and even was in the Warsaw pact countries. But the fact is that consuming as much meat is not only bad for us, it is completely unproductive. The government has pump massive amounts of money into farming to keep this viable.
I don't think meat eating is something you can legislate away. Instead, it will have to made redundant. Lab meat will eventually match and outpace real meat, and that will eventually be it for the livestck industry.
>>2230031>>communism in one farm>If you want to be a vegan I don't care, but don't peddle it as having anything to do with communism.Supposed communist NOT beating the "does not know how to have a rational discussion" accusations…
You made huge logical leaps to "communism in one farm" which has no relationship whatsoever to the post you replied to. How about you write more than two sentences, and have at most 0 of your sentences be strawmen
>>2230063>If communism is about improving people's lives then it's not any different from whatever social democracy exists todayThe issue is that social democracy is failing at it, because it is incapable to overcome capitalism's limitations.
>>2230224>A modernt transplant from older religious or cultural prescriptions on dietThats a fucking nonsense. Modern veganism is product of modern human no longer being used to killing animals, and modern agriculture allowing for healthy vegan diet.
>>2231837Even in communism. I'm sure the commissar's won't give up meat. It'll just become a luxury if banned.
Do you seriously think communism is around the corner?
We are never gonna arrive at utopia.
>>2231849So regardless. Cooking is divorced from dietary proclivity
>>2231927>that gorilla & cow comparisonnevermind this being from a rightiod site the vegetables, fruits and grains we consume are way more nutritious than anything wild animals eat and "turning fiber into fat" is a strawman argument.
The comparison is stupid on so many other levels but I'm not gonna try to argue against a gish gallop just refute the central point and move on.
>>2226552>malnutrition and slavery le goodCivilization is a euphemism for slavery. Agriculture is the rape and exploitation of nature which enables the mass slavery and oppression of humankind. It is civilization, and therefore agriculture, that is the root cause of inequality, oppression, class stratification, taxes, ownership, capitalism, poverty, disease and famine. Communists should really be anarcho-primitivists considering it addresses the root cause of all your grievances, but many are ironically vegan which is only possible due to harming the earth and animals via agriculture. Plant based diets are terrible for the environment and human health.
>>2228735Humans can and do eat raw meat, even raw blood and organs. Raw seeds and vegetables are naturally indigestible and poisonous in their wild state. CHEATING is required for eating plants, not meat.
>>2231969>CHEATING is required for eating plantsCooking food is cheating at what? This isn't a game bitch
You're fucking stupid
>>2231939You missed the point, our physiology is DIFFERENT from herbivores.
>the vegetables, fruits and grains we consume are way more nutritious than anything wild animals They are still less nutritious and less digestible than meat
>>2232223The meat is still raw though. That being said, worms are actually healthy. There is an emerging field of research called helminthic therapy which studies the health benefits of worms. People infect themselves with trichinosis to heal. If parasites are still concerning then wild omnivore meat would be the only thing to avoid, ruminant animals are cleaner and safe. Germans eat raw pork and dont get sick.
Meat is the reward for successful humans, especially organs like liver are prizes by primitive tribes. Humans who fail to secure meat are forced to subsist on seeds and carbs as punishment.
Veganism is consumer activism and doesn't work. You need production side veganism to make it work, which means you need control over agriculture instead of it being private and for profit. Animals cant free themselves, except humans, so you have to do that first.
>>2230028>for proles taking control of the means of productionyeah
>You don't even need moralismevery argument you gave is moral. people arent going to do it just because you think those things are good and capitalists certainly are not.
>>2230224>I don't find veganism particularly offensive. I just think it's a delusional belief.I agree with most of your post and I do think that Veganism is about morality, but I also think that it is sort of unique because of the Name the Trait argument. There isn't really a justification for the exploitation of animals that does not also apply to humans, meaning there is no way to say its okay to do to something to an animal but not to you.
https://philosophicalvegan.com/wiki/index.php/NameTheTrait>>2232365Delusional.
>>2232366Veganism can never work. It harms humans and is therefore animal cruelty.
>>2231969>civilization is a euphemism for slaveryyes. once we begin farming instead of hunting, we enclose ourselves into the gates we set for others. man's violence is imposed upon himself, in the form of society which he chooses to live in. when you see an animal in a cage, you often forget the prison that man is in. the meat grinder comes for all.
>anarcho-primitivismyou ruined this with your meme ideology. even ted kaczynski criticised anprims lol. but yes, kids dont like eating their vegetables because theyre poisonous. thats why you have to boil them to death or season them to make them edible. slave food.
>>2232858why is it never "eat the delicious fruit"?
its always "eat the leaves and grass"
now they are telling us to eat ze bugs
maybe its an upgrade 🤣
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