/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

>>2240519
>morale doesnt matter in war and struggle
you are ngmi

>>2240508
well said

>>2240854
There are 300+ million burgers dude. There absolutely were some who learned it was a genocide because of the video where a member of the US armed forces called it a genocide and publicly an hero'd over that fact.

>>2241564
You make a good point actually, and something I hand't really considered before. Like yeah at a small scale if he shot a zionist that might count as a material win, but the machine is a lot bigger than any individual and it would ultimately keep on trucking and he'd be forgotten. Instead, the self-sacrifice ends up fostering much more sympathy for the cause since nobody can attack him on the basis of hurting "innocents" and people who shit on him for this or that reason look deranged to normies. Meanwhile the extreme nature of setting himself on fire does scare the security apparatus who will as you say escalate the repression and get more obvious. While it's not generally a good idea to get yourself or other people hurt just to make a point, the senselessness of the repression and violence does seem to be spurring more regular people to action.

>>2240597
okay so when did you kill yourself and how are you still posting? Is there a leftypol in the next life too?

>>2241564
>>2241596

This.

>>2241053
Dorner had more rizz. I mean look at this guy. Bro was a boy scout who genuinely believed in the American dream before the cold water hit him. Him snapping and making the LAPD shit themselves is understandable, relatable even.

True, but sadly in spite of his actions being justified and him exposing the cops for the dogs they were, it didn't galvanise as many people to start putting pressure on cops in comparison to the to the George Flloyd riots. Also to be fair, Dorner although becoming a martyr, became more of a mascot against Police corruption as oppoed to that of a martyr who would galvanise a mass movement.

>Dorner and Bushnell it makes a lot more sense to do a suicide mission because of their present involvement with an organization they're fighting against.

That's fair, but the difference between what makes Bushnell's sacrifice more potent is that it was done in conjunction with the October 7th attacks. Bushnell's sacrifice gave a clear moral position on which side western civillians ought to take.


>>2240940
>conflating the banning of tiktok with bushnell
>that would've happened with or without him, though.
<not realising Aaron Bushnell's death was posted all over tiktok
As I have said, repeatedly, Bushnell's death was a major part in the masses being educated on Palestine and then organising and spreading more info/ organising as a result.
This is more evidence of you doing nothing but arguing against strawmen that you've built in your mind.

>you know the first mental health institutions were led by christians and known for their cruelty? look at you, thinking that those disagreeing with your retarded ideas have to be instutionalized. it's just one indicator after the other.
You put words in other peoples mouths, consistently strawman your other opponents positions, derail threads, have joked about SA, projected your own insecurities onto others, and can only deflect and insult people when presented evidence of your delusional world view. There have been plenty of posters on this board that I disagree with, Sabo poster being one, but at least I'm able to have civil conversations with them. You on the other hand tried to derail a thread meant for debate by flinging shit and seething. Hell, I didn't even start this whole argument- you did. Again, you can slander me as a Nardonik, a Christian, A kurdophile, a Liberal, A debate bro, etc- but the only one of us who is acting like a sociopath in this server is you.

Furthermore, I haven't even called for you to be locked up or instutionalised, which is more evidence of you putting words in other people's mouths. So I'll put this in words you can understand:

Log off and book a meeting with a therapist and/or psychiatrist.

Palestine protests in general accomplished nothing except getting some activists arrested. Why is Israel still committing genocide? Why haven’t these calls to “ESCALATE!!!!” resulted in anything meaningful towards ending the genocide?

>>2251387
Protests were part of public opinion on Israel going sour, that’s worth it

>>2251387
I got a good yuck out of college SJWs screaming Islamic phrases. Seeing a pride flag waving next to the Palestinian flag was comedy gold

>>2251412
But did it stop the genocide? No. Leftists can’t even form a powerful enough org to counter AIPAC.

>>2251450
>But did it stop the genocide? No.
I'd say that's the end of the line tbh. The most extreme acts of self sacrifice to garner awareness failed to stop the genocide. Case closed, there are no more goalposts.

>>2251587
And It bears repeating, that there was plenty of awareness of the situation with Gaza. There is no more "awareness" to be raised when there is a constant flow of audiovisual materials and straight out admissions live for anyone to see.

These acts of self sacrifice could not garner any more awareness, but they could garner pity, compassion. An emotional compromise to lower whatever barrier prevents one from engaging with the evidence of genocide, for those susceptible. And that was a failure as well.

Turns out that if a society considers a daily HD stream of war, privation and genocide merely entertainment… your stupid little self immolation gets filed the same.

>>2251593
>Turns out that if a society considers a daily HD stream of war, privation and genocide merely entertainment… your stupid little self immolation gets filed the same.
This is why you could make the argument that the endless videos of dead children coming out of Gaza that you'd see posted to IG and TikTok actually HURT the Palestinian cause. Why? Because it desensitizes the general public and takes away the sense of urgency.

The "bread and circuses" method of keeping the public passive doesn't work anymore. Now, you flood them with an endless stream of information so they have no idea what's serious enough to act on and what's not.

>>2251450
The main reason Palestine protests aren't working is because they always happen on weekends when all the powerful people are away from their offices. If they happened every Tuesday instead of every Saturday/Sunday then yes they'd have a much bigger impact because they'd shut down the city.

Doc workers strike pls

>>2254692
Won’t happen, because the orgs that put on these protests get approval from the authorities. They want to keep everything legal because they’re professional activists.

>>2251387
the main problem with palestine protests is that they're a single issue thing like abortion. now, let me be very, very clear what I mean before someone acusses me whatver -ism. for the broad specter of western society, these are single issues. those articulating the protest might have the best anti-imperialist or anti-patriarchal line you can think of, but you will never get the mass to understand these as part of the totality of capitalism-imperialism while they still live relatively comfortable lives in the west. so what, some two million get slaughtered and expelled, big deal, we barely feel the war here. to add salt to the wound, entryism with palestine just does not work. you always get more university anti-totalitarian liboid anarchists instead of anti-imperialist communists from palestine entryism.

>>2241564
>>2241596
>It forced the USA and Israel to employ open, unapologetic repression
<implying it was much different before of after the dumbfuck killed himself
People here must be on fucking drugs to actually believe this.

>>2255152
this is also another thing. free free palestine liboids have no strategy contra the imperialist state

>>2254692
>>2255152
>activism ending war ever
Lol.

>>2255230
It worked in South Africa.

>>2255224
I mean, the US doesn’t need to undergo a communist revolution to stop supporting Israel. Just like how the US doesn’t need to undergo a revolution to secure abortion rights, LGBTQ rights, neurodivergent rights, etc.

>>2255307
The reason Nelson Mandela stayed in prison so long was because he refused to disavow violent struggle.

>>2255325
>I mean, the US doesn’t need to undergo a communist revolution to stop supporting Israel. Just like how the US doesn’t need to undergo a revolution to secure abortion rights, LGBTQ rights, neurodivergent rights, etc.
Agree to disagree.

>>2240496
>>2240516
truthnuke
but pro-palestine movement is too sentimental for its own sake and they are not willing to hear words of truth. When will the retards understand being moralist doesn't do shit to the Israeli nazis. They see it as stupidity and weakness and it emboldens them.

>>2255325
>I mean, the US doesn’t need to undergo a communist revolution to stop supporting Israel.
Yeah it probably needs to undergo absolute and total destruction.

Hypothetically someone might say "He should've taken a lot of people with him and it's a missed opportunity that he didn't."

Only da workas can do anyfing 'bout dis situayshon

>>2256119
wut da fok is youse accent m8?

Stop investing so much in Palestine. Palestinian people demand every westerner who claims to support them “needs” to pull shit like this and outright sacrifice themselves “for Palestine”. It’s absolute emotional blackmail and any westerner with half a brain can see this. Palestinians will NEVER be satisfied no matter how much activists give. They are some of the most ungrateful cunts ever.(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)

>>2256289
t. Gulf Arab whose Thai/Filipino slave didn’t deliver his food on time

>>2256291
I’m Canadian but okay.

I'm not liking the turn of events. The Houthis are Palestine's last hope but even then, what can they do? Make life in Israel "unlivable" to the point where all 7 million Israeli Jews get up and leave? How does that entail Palestine will magically be resurrected and all diaspora Palestinians will return? Gaza is currently starving and it looks like Israel (with America's aid) is going to seize back the entire Strip and force the remaining Palestinian population out. Combine this with Abbas stating he no longer wants to keep this conflict going and is demanding Fatah lay down its arms.

I feel sick to my stomach.

>>2256934
>Combine this with Abbas stating he no longer wants to keep this conflict going and is demanding Fatah lay down its arms.
Well shit, hopefully. Were the PA not fighting Hamas in the west bank last year, before Israel took the lead? Hopefully the PA gets completely absorbed into the occupation, or wahtever bullshit org the USA makes up to manage Gaza.

So that there is no pretext of peaceful resistance anymore.

>>2257133
I mean, how do the Palestinians wage violent resistance when they're in the conditions they're in? Look at how easily Israel has been able to take over Gaza these past few weeks after 19 months of fighting Hamas. Hamas is so weakened right now other they're offering to release all the hostages for a ceasefire while Israel refuses (winners aren't the ones begging for a ceasefire).

>>2240496
>Now that the dust has settled, did his grand act of self-sacrifice for the Palestinian people truly accomplish anything?
Self immolation is obviously not a viable strategy to use on a mass scale, but if an individual does it you have to respect them as hardcore. Conservatives in the US would never do anything like that. He is now one among a line of martyrs in the history of resistance to imperial barbarism worldwide.
<"muh organization"
Nobody on here fucking disagrees with this. It's far more preferable that people stay alive to resist in an organization, but you people forget that the right optics under the right circumstances can provide a lot of soft power for a cause.
>Did it do anything to mobilize the American people to stop the genocide in Palestine? Did it help the Palestinian resistance in any way?
Like what some of the other posters on here have said, it gave Palestinians hope and showed that america isn't totally full of cackling monsters. More importantly, it forced the narrative around Israel to be shaped in a way where the US has ramped up domestic repression. Fucking Ivy League college kids are getting arrested with open collusion between the colleges and the security state. If any of you cared about "Accelerationism", this is it. 53% OF THE US NOW HAVE A NEGATIVE OPINION OF ISRAEL
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2025/04/08/how-americans-view-israel-and-the-israel-hamas-war-at-the-start-of-trumps-second-term/
<inb4 "muh intentions"
So fucking what?! Sure a lot of the Right wingers among them might view it from a nihilistic angle of wishing they'd just kill each other already and do it without us needing to pay a cent or anything. They're mostly at odds with the rest of their own damn movement. Let them deal with their own contradictions. The Feds are at odds with half the country, who think we're actually correct for once. We should own it and force that as leverage against the Feds. After all, this would count as one of those "subjective revolutionary conditions" Lenin wrote about.
>Or was it a vain, self-righteous act that served zero purpose other than to make this guy a martyr?
I'm certain that narcissists are not the kind of people who would kill themselves by fire out of a sense of self-righteousness. I promise you there are waaay easier ways one can get clout while physically preserving that precious ego of theirs.

>>2240667
>>2240678
You know, when you fight a war, you need people to occupy the territory you advance into. You yourself even allude that the US prefers proxies fighting and occupying territory over going in themselves, and yet they still had to deploy troops in Iraq and Afghanistan.

>>2240682
Didn't know of the others. Looked them up. Alright I'll give you that. They should be appreciated into narrative as well.

>>2241061
>>2241065
You're only saying this because it doesn't have the veneer of history or because a Burger did it.

>>2241263
Okay? Abolitionism in the Antebellum period was only ever literally spectacular displays of moralism. It wasn't until Union soldiers had to physically go into the South and see the plantations for themselves to really force the Union to end the Civil War with Abolitionism as a required condition. The work of those early, moralistic Abolitionists were still good and contributed to establishing the narrative.

>>2251633
Are you fucking delusional?! The other half of the country that is either truly apathetic or actively supports Israel's genocide simply don't want to think about the dead children AT ALL. Posts like that force people to be reminded that it's happening.

>>2240516
>>2240885
>>2240699
You know? A lot of Right wingers in Israel have this particular quirk where they look down on soldiers in the IDF for dying, especially at the hands of a Palestinian. They pretty much consider you a sucker. At least the US military, as monstrous as it may be, considers their dead heroes.

You people stress the need for organization and stress how actionable violence beats protests in making real change, but how the fuck do you people think anyone ever gets driven enough to make that leap from nothing? You need a story for your cause and heroes to go along with it. Self-interest alone doesn't get people to risk life and limb for increasingly intangible ideas like "workplace democracy" or "ending genocide" in the face of a jackboot coming at you.

>>2242251
Pay no mind to the so-called "scientific" socialists. They're too addicted to their truth that humans are just bloodless, self-interested machines who only can only be driven by machinations beyond their control that we merely need to challenge with organizations that just work because they're organizations. No sir, once we all pack ourselves into those organizations, the work will be done on its own.

>>2257141
>You need a story for your cause and heroes to go along with it.
We are Marxists. We have a scientific understanding of history. We know masses create history and not individuals great men or heros. We are not narodniks. You should take down that flag if you're going to be retarded. The masses never act upon a hero's signal to action because those are not the historical forces that drive the masses to action. Thinking anything else is true is putting the movement in the year 1850.

We have our tradition to uphold and do not need to venerate performative political actors to attract liberal academics or sentimental petty-bourgeois in our ranks.

>>2257163
>We are Marxists. We have a scientific understanding of history. We know masses create history and not individuals great men or heros. We are not narodniks.
The Right-Narodniks were bad because, for all their waxing poetic about the idyllic peasant village, they had zero faith whatsoever in the Peasants' revolutionary potential. Venerating individuals for their actions is not that.
>You should take down that flag if you're going to be retarded.
Maybe you should sign up in the IDF what with how much water you're carrying for them.
>The masses never act upon a hero's signal to action because those are not the historical forces that drive the masses to action.
History's a fucking story. The Socialist tradition is an international phenomenon with a basic core of principles that act as a throughline everywhere it has existed. Even in Marxism there is an implied moral framework. To his credit, at face value, a lot of the writing published in his time was pretty amoral, so how the fuck do you expect to get the masses riled up enough to change their conditions without admitting that there is a level of understanding a "right" and "wrong" and to be willing to relate to one another enough to risk using violence to overthrow the entire state of things? The history of Socialism is a story of mythic proportions.

>>2240508
>and this white boy who is literally in the armed forces in the belly of the beast sets himself on fucking fire to bring awareness to your cause and people.
do you seriously think they give a shit about this guy? he accomplished nothing

>>2257207
literally marvelizing history holy shit
just stop and think about what you are saying and if you can't i'll return in a couple of hours to explain it to you

>>2257212
I hate to tell you this, but moral codes and sentimentalism, on top of condensing history into a mythos, even if it's done for cynical reasons, are the things that give people solidarity between one another, and solidarity is the only way you're gonna get most of the masses animated into action. These movements only begin by the work of a core of relatively few people before they snowball into mass movements. The (Left-) Libertarian traditions are right to point out the many times that this led to undemocratic movements and governments, but if you understand class, class-conflict, how it's reproduced in Capitalism and that the solution is to abolish it, you're part of "the vanguard", whether you like it or not. The question is what kind of movement you build with that understanding.

You talk as if to imply you're a Marxist, but you're little better than the inverse of a Right-Narodnik. Yes, the Right-Narodniks were stupid for being elitist radicals, but when you tell us that the masses need to be driven by "historical forces" to bring about Socialism, you may as well say god or magic or destiny will do it. If all the working class needed was "historical forces", they wouldn't need Marxism. The Chartist movement showed us working people are clearly capable of acting as a political force of their own.

Is this spectacle?

>>2257229
Good points. I spoke out too quickly. I apologize.

>>2257141
>He is now one among a line of martyrs in the history of resistance
Who attacked him for his resistance? Do you think Jesus put himself on that cross lol
>it forced the narrative around Israel to be shaped in a way where the US has ramped up domestic repression
Who repressed him?
>If any of you cared about "Accelerationism", this is it
When I hear people talk of what opened their eyes, they mention the countless images of wounded kids on social media they see each day.
>how the fuck do you people think anyone ever gets driven enough to make that leap from nothing? You need a story for your cause and heroes to go along with it
My role models that I want to emulate are not anarchists who killed themself to own the libs. My heroes are still alive 🐺
>Self-interest alone doesn't get people to risk life and limb
Yeah we need collective-interest, you know, the thing which anarchists like this guy literally would work with nazis to fight against:

>CrimethInc, an anarchist collective, claimed that Bushnell contacted it shortly before his death, asking it to "make sure that the footage is preserved and reported on".
These anti-Stalinists collaborated with fascists who literally did the holocaust to overthrow Ukraine's pro-Russia president for NATO finance imperialists, and then anarchists hilariously tried to argue "we're just decentralized individuals with no power, actually anarchism has no ability to affect historical change! We are WEAK and could NEVER BE REVOLUTIONARY!!!"
https://crimethinc.com/2022/02/15/war-and-anarchists-anti-authoritarian-perspectives-in-ukraine

>>2256934
That Houthi midsole that hit the airport didn’t even hit the actual airport but a fucking parking lot. Most Israelis will tell you they feel very safe. The only ones leaving are temporarily travelling due to the stress of war, but they’ll be back soon enough.

>>2257424
I forgive you. You apologized on an imageboard of all things. That's gotta count for something. [hugs]
>>2257430
Dude, what is you guys' deal? Seriously. You all just sound like assholes and tryhards. I need you to be honest with me, is all of this animus because he might have been an Anarchist? So what? Plenty of self-proclaimed MLs on this board have proven to me that it's one of the most degenerated sect in the US right now. There are fucking Neo-Kautskyists more advanced than a lot of you guys.

And when did I ever bring up crimethinc? You don't even make sense.
<crimethinc are Anarchist assets of the US, which is why they platformed a guy who protested against Israel, whose greatest ally in the whole wide world is the US
I don't know how you can explain this besides saying it was an attempt to discredit the movement, but if you actually believe that, you certainly lost the plot.
>These anti-Stalinists collaborated with fascists who literally did the holocaust to overthrow Ukraine's pro-Russia president for NATO finance imperialists
Big if true, but you gotta prove that. Besides that, why defend Russia? Even if we actually managed to get the US to commit to an arms embargo or cut off ties completely or whatever, there's still a slim, but greater-than-zero chance that Israel could scrape by with improved relations with Russia

https://www.chathamhouse.org/2025/03/israels-complicated-strategic-relationship-russia-could-strengthen-trump-white-house

>>2240496
The idea was probably to mimic the arab spring self immolation that caused immense chaos in the middle east. Problem is that americans are well fed too well if you ask me and have jobs.

>>2258449
Also parliamentary fake democracy is used as a mechanism to blow off steam from the general population. Arab spring counties had liberal dictatorships.

>>2258449
'Ricans work two jobs to survive, or something

Is aaron bushnell like george floyd?