Now that the dust has settled, did his grand act of self-sacrifice for the Palestinian people truly accomplish anything?
Did it do anything to mobilize the American people to stop the genocide in Palestine? Did it help the Palestinian resistance in any way? Or was it a vain, self-righteous act that served zero purpose other than to make this guy a martyr?
Is self-sacrifice worth it?
>>2240541The revolutionary is a dead man. Christainity is inherently reactionary.
Sauces:
>1. The revolutionary is a doomed man. He has no personal interests, no business affairs, no emotions, no attachments, no property, and no name. Everything in him is wholly absorbed in the single thought and the single passion for revolution. - Sergey Nechayev Approved by Lenin + he was rehabilitated by Stalin + Religion is reactionary, criticism of religion is revolutionary, Marx hates you religious christian faggot, MARX HATES YOU RELIGIOUS CHRISTIAN MORALIST FAGGOT, MARX HATES YOU, MARX CRITICIZED UTOPIAN SOCIALISM BECAUSE A "CHRISTIAN SOCIALIST" FAGGOT LIKE YOURSELF WALKED UP TO HIM, DEATH TO CHRISTIANS DEATH TO MORALISTS, DEATH TO RELIGIOUS VERMIN.
>>2240496In so far that it raised awareness for folks in America to realise their empire was evil, absolutely. Seeing one of their own troops self-immolate in protest to genocide, particularly in a country where their troops are treated with nigh-untouchable status by the American culture (save nothing for the American system)- was enough to send shockwaves through social media.
If Aaron's sacrifice didn't accomplish anything- The US government wouldn't be clamping down as hard as it did with Pro-Palestinian rallies, students, and institutions which gave platforms to said positions.
The death and destruction of Palestineians was disgusting and frightful to see, and Aaron's sacrifice was enough to show that a US soldier- the henchmen of empire- could recognise this was wrong. His death gave Americans the idea that their government was evil and uncaring.
I pray that his soul found the peace that he couldn't in life.
>>2240594Oh I didn't finish the quote.
>>22405411. The revolutionary is a doomed man. He has no personal interests, no business affairs, no emotions, no attachments, no property, and no name. Everything in him is wholly absorbed in the single thought and the single passion for revolution.
That is Lenin and Stalin approved. You moralist lying uyghur. They put their stamp of approval on it, Lenin said "READ NECHAYEV", Stalin rehabilitated him. They agree with him. KILL YOURSELF RELIGIOUS TRASH, YOU PLAGUE THE BOARD.
>>2240541I agree with you not because of suicide but because his death really didn't accomplish anything. Now if he blew himself up near bibi, that would be something.
>>2240594>>2240597Did a female christcuck steal your gay boyfriend and turn him straight?
Also, wasn't nechayev a chud? Like I remember criticism of "barracks communism" that came because nechayev was a chud.
>>2240608>Did a female christcuck steal your gay boyfriend and turn him straight?No she was in Aum Shinirkyo and he died of a sarin attack.
>Also, wasn't nechayev a chud? Like I remember criticism of "barracks communism" that came because nechayev was a chud.Yes but we have to kill every religious person to complete the quota and I don't think we can do it without any casualties so Nechayev was like "nothing matters bro" and killed and then died. That was cool.
>>2240496It mattered jack shit other than earning his name a place in history books. But in time, he'll be recuperated as a good liberal hero who had some immaterial impact and really kids, this is what it takes. Not direct action or organizing. Nono, this is the bar.
So you better gawk and ask yourself if you are willing to burn for some stupid happening half the world away. no? Thought so.
>Muh raising awarenessOMG how much more fucking awareness is needed. There just isn't any political will anywhere to do anything about Gaza. Israel's actions are firmly within the liberal politics canon, it's just another wedge issue. In liberal politics one doesn't do shit, ever. The ruling class does and then one pretends attending the shared fiction matters.
>>2240624>No she was in Aum Shinirkyo and he died of a sarin attack. My Consneeds to you chud.
>Yes but we have to kill every religious person to complete the quotaWho built that fucking quota?
Seriously im not going to kill religious people. There is this hot christian girl am dating and she promised to be a godly slut for me when I marry her so no. I will stand in the way between your murderous rage and prime untouched christian holes.
Faggot.
>>2240596>Look guys, they are nailing me to a cross guys!>LOOK AT THESE TRYHARDS !<The more they victimize me the more I win LOLOLOLOLOLThe Gaza genocide is done. It's over. It's been achieved in full.
Now remains to be seen how much they twist the knife and how the eventual survivors are handled in the context of geopolitics. But they are cooked already. Gaza is 100% unfit to live, 100% under Israeli/NATO exclusive jurisdiction and soon 100% controlled by them or some sockpuppet from the PA.
IDK where you set the bar. But the genocide is done, so that one is off the table.
>>2240496Obviously since there's efforts to discredit him to this day. The Palestinian movement is the most dangerous movement to the U.S imperialism right now for 4 prime reasons
1. Discredits and delegetimizing the U.S government in multiple ways.
<puppets of a forgien government<obvious lies about war crimes <higher scrutiny to forgien aid during a nationalist revanchism2. Cracked the consent manufacturing machine against U.S forgien policy
3. Divides the right wing and delegetimizies them as the tools for a hostile forgien government. They have to deal with the contradicton and humiliation of shouting "America first!!" While also having to pledge loyalty to Israel. Oh sure the true die in the wool fascist dipshit will stick around but they're already pulling away slowly.
4. Both parties are complicit. Israels support is tanking across demographics, the longer both parties stay unified on this issue the further it delegtitimizes the whole the system. There either has to be concensus crack or this is all going to blow up.
Aaron bushnell was and is a heroevery ripple brings a tide >>2240665>The Palestinian movement is the most dangerous movement to the U.S imperialism right now for 4 prime reasonsI give you 1 reason why you are wrong.
The US no longer needs people to fight its wars.
It now has
>drones>bombers>muslims who apologize to israel>Other minorities willing to die for AMERICUNT>MIGAtards and Christcuck ZionistsAaron decided to simulate what its like being a palestinian child. Good for him. But this accomplished nothing.
Brave soul, but I guess it's the life that the dead would envy given his mental issues.
>>2240669>you don't need infantry anymoreThat's right faggot, You don't.
Notice how it's retard countries like Russia and Ukraine that are fighting infantry wars. Why? Because they have no fucking economies since everyone is driking vodka and the oligarchs are fucking superescorts.
FuCk you and your Bullshit military science (SAYENCE) ANDREI FUCKING MARTYANOV.
Press S to Spit on Andrei "Muh Political Science" Martyanov.
Stupid faggot.
Go fight a war you chode.
Faggot.
>>2240682>Also it's hysterical to hand out participation awards for self immolationNo its not its fun.
>>2240496Congratulations on AARON BUSHNELL for LIGHTING HIMSELF with GAS. His SELF-IMMOLATION will NOT be FORGOTTEN.
And congratulations to MAX AZZARELLO for LIGHTING HIMSELF ON FIRE for THE SIMPSONS SHOW! (He gets SILVER because nobody remembered his performance)
>>2240634>Nonsense. They would have repressed mass protests anyway.If their propaganda worked, there'd be no need to repress.
>>2240655>dude it's ogreSo long as the PFLP, the DFLP and Hamas fight, it isn't over.
Pardon me if I don't succumb to despair as quickly as you.
>>2240665This
>>2240827I'm saying Aaron's death galvanised thousands of Americans to become aware of the crimes of empire, dispelled decades worth of propaganda and lead them to take action.
It cannot be denied that his death and raising awareness of the Palestenian cause are interlinked.
But hey, don't take my word for it, here are statements from Palestenian orgs that are fighting/opposing israel as we speak:
Hamas praised the act and expressed "heartfelt condolences" to the friends and family of Bushnell, announcing in a statement on Telegram that "he immortalised his name as a defender of human values and the oppression of the suffering Palestinian people because of the American administration and its unjust policies" and calling him a "heroic pilot".
https://www.newarab.com/news/hamas-blames-us-death-heroic-airman-aaron-bushnellThe Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine released a statement honoring Bushnell, calling his death "the highest sacrifice."
https://x.com/prolpo/status/1762132021290430554Palestinian activist Mohammed el-Kurd called it a "call to action" to "undermine these regimes that are killing us."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPCVrlIdrhY&rco=1Officials in the Palestinian city of Jericho announced on March 10 that they had named a street in Bushnell's honor.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/10/palestinian-town-of-jericho-names-street-after-us-airman-who-set-himself-on-fireThe fact that Aaron's death galvanised Americans and was praised as such by these orgs/ activists should tell you he didn't die for nothing. His sacrifice gave a voice to those who were censored, silenced and killed for daring to demand a better life.
>>2240855It wasn't just Iran who betrayed them.
You did, too.
>>2240854>THEY WERE LITERALLY AWARE OF THE GAZA GENOCIDE LONG BEFORE AARON SUICIDED.Not as much as they are now. And let's just say for the sake argument you were right:
given Aaron's sacrifice, they may have "known" but it's clear they didn't know which side to take. The sight of a US soldier self-immolating and chanting free palestine dispelled that ignorance and faux-neutrality.
In comparisson to pro-palestinian protest movements and the active response from the US state in repressing campuses filled with Pro-Palestenian orgs, we haven't seen this level of support prior to the death of Aaron Bushnell and October 7th. Hell, a major reason why Kamala Harris didn't win was due to her apathy on Palestine, which, in comparisson to previous US presidents should tell you the impact that Aaron's death had in raising awareness of Israel's genocide.
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/biden-voters-passed-kamala-harris-because-gaza-new-poll-showsLiterally no presidential candidate in US history prior to Kamala lost based on their positions of Palestine, which is what makes Kamala's defeat so extraordinary.
Aaron Bushnell's sacrifice showed the world that the US was on the wrong side of history and gave context to October 7th. It's not my fault that the Palestenians consider this man a hero who gave them a voice while you still scream he died for nothing in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
>>2240594only good post here
imagine thinking 'raising awareness' means anything anymore when that time long pressed and the question is of organization. it's literally Christian sacrifice, washing your hands of your state's crime, creating content slop for dopamine addicts and making anarchists feel good
>>2240868So Hamas and the PFLP are hitlerites now?
Considering what leftypol calls "liberal" and "hitlerite" forgive me if I don't take you seriously.
>>2240882>it's like you just want to be labeled a debate dopamine addict narodnikFam, the whole point of this thread is literally to debate, the very subject that OP posted was this:
>Now that the dust has settled, did his grand act of self-sacrifice for the Palestinian people truly accomplish anything?
>Did it do anything to mobilize the American people to stop the genocide in Palestine? Did it help the Palestinian resistance in any way? Or was it a vain, self-righteous act that served zero purpose other than to make this guy a martyr?
>Is self-sacrifice worth it?I'm sorry if I actually want to effort post, and debate as OP wanted to while you do nothing but throw buzzwords, attempt to derail to the thread into petty squabbling, and start using terms you don't know while I live rent free in your head.
Seriously, get help.
>>2240885>you are universalizing one organization's interpretation of the self-immolation:Do you enjoy giving me positions that I don't argue with, or are you this delusional? The whole point was wether his sacrifice was in vein- which it wasn't. I never specified the "universalising one organisations interepretation of self immolation"- I pointed out that
multiple orgs commended Aaron for his sacrifice- particularly those in Palestine, including Hamas and the PFLP- you know, the ones who are
actively engaged in military combat with IsraelAs can be seen here
>>2240846
>we need organization and not oneoff bigshots like the healthcare shooter or this. sorry! but no amount of 'free free Palestine' will bring the proletarian association to the west. No argument here, but to deny Aaron's death having a hand in gavlanising the western population to organise and sabotage Israel is rubbish. Granted there were other factors, but to deny Aaron's sacrifice as being one of them is bullshit. As for the so called "impotency of the west" not only have students in western countries advocating and pressuring universities to cut ties with Israel, but have notably been mobilising to stop arms from being sent to Israel.
>inb4 spain isn't the westhttps://www.newsweek.com/colleges-israel-pro-palestinian-bds-movement-divest-1894608https://www.monabaker.org/2024/05/11/76-universities-in-spain-suspend-ties-with-complicit-israeli-universities/https://apan.org.au/media_release/apan-backs-university-students-demands-to-cut-ties-with-israeli-universities-weapons-companies/https://www.thecanary.co/uk/news/2025/01/28/palestine-action-teledyne-van-shipley/You need propaganda and acts of protest to raise awareness of the issue, which will lead to the masses galvanising and organising- something which Aaron had a hand in contributing to. I'm sorry if it's not happening at the rapid pace you like- it's almost as if the goals of the struggle can't be met overnight.
The only reason we don't get this sort of coverage of western civillians taking action against Palestine is likely due to Western Media maintaining its propaganda apparatus deliberately not reporting it, or labelling its participants as run of the mill anti-semites.
So let me conclude that you can call me a Nardonik, a debate bro, or someone who posts walls of texts (never mind they have citations) or whatever- it doesn't stop the fact that you're bitching about having a debate in a thread meant to encourage debate.
>you jerking yourself off how smart and enlightened you are not 'effortposts', thoughStill makes me smarter and more enlightened than you :^3
>still yapping about his christian sacrifice and still believing 'galvanizing' (liking and sharing the videos) the 'masses' (middle class students) did anything >comparing self-immolation with direct action in some country (spain) while the thesis is about galvanizing the usainsit's so tiring to reply to silly avatarfags which obviously stand on the line 'just do anything bro please any kind of feelgood thing is actually revolutionary trust me bro'
yawn
>>2240902literally this
>>2240633It isn't. I think that, if you don't believe that what the other anon said is true, you're basically getting close to nihilistic violence that will result in your own annihilation. It is genuinely true that strength and perseverence of a people comes from somewhere besides violence and the power to kill.
In fact, the purpose of the IDFs slaughter is to try and enforce this attitude– that anything else but genocide is cope.
>>2240908>im not owned, im not owned >students sharing and making videos does nothing!The USA placed a ban on Tik tok to stop the spread of pro Palestinian content from reaching the masses.
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/us-tiktok-ban-linked-israel-china-insiders-revealAgain, propaganda and acts of protests are vital if the masses are to mobilise and take action- which they have started to do, but you attribute it to it “just making vids”.
I’m genuinely worried that you are this delusional or suffer from cognitive dissonance. Please, go see a psychiatrist.
>>2240922>conflating the banning of tiktok with bushnellthat would've happened with or without him, though.
<I’m genuinely worried that you are this delusional or suffer from cognitive dissonance. Please, go see a psychiatrist.you know the first mental health institutions were led by christians and known for their cruelty? look at you, thinking that those disagreeing with your retarded ideas have to be instutionalized. it's just one indicator after the other
repost cuz forgot my ~~flag
>>2240970yeah but Iron felix could say :
"at least he killed 3 amerikkans instead of only one"
>>2240972Dallas shooter didn't have the same optics, partly because the media weren't gonna make the mistake again, and partly because Dorner had more rizz. I mean look at this guy. Bro was a boy scout who genuinely believed in the American dream before the cold water hit him. Him snapping and making the LAPD shit themselves is understandable, relatable even.
A guy who's already a radical for a while doing some individualist terrorism (even against justified targets) on the other hand comes across like somebody who could have done more effective resistance if he lived and coordinated with other people. With Dorner and Bushnell it makes a lot more sense to do a suicide mission because of their present involvement with an organization they're fighting against.
Micah Xavier Johnson was discharged from the military by this point (involving sexual harassment allegations btw) and apparently just lashing out. He also did it amidst wider protests against the cops, escalating the situation and putting protesters in more danger, as well as injuring bystanders directly himself. (The only bystanders Dorner hurt personally were members of the cops' families.) Also unlike Dorner he didn't cause a giant manhunt since he fled to a building nearby where the cops quickly killed him with a bomb robot. Basically none of the things about Dorner that made him famous were factors here.
>>2240496I respect him but he couldve done something much better like blowing himself up near some important zionists or doing a rampage.
The left in west since 1991 suffer from a "hype moment and aura" problem, we want to have good pictures that are powerful & symbolic instead of doing something that can actually be useful.
>>2240854Who was?
Tons of people thought and still think its just "religion is le bad'
>>2240519>morale doesnt matter in war and struggleyou are ngmi
>>2240508well said
>>2241564>>2241596This.
>>2241053Dorner had more rizz. I mean look at this guy. Bro was a boy scout who genuinely believed in the American dream before the cold water hit him. Him snapping and making the LAPD shit themselves is understandable, relatable even.
True, but sadly in spite of his actions being justified and him exposing the cops for the dogs they were, it didn't galvanise as many people to start putting pressure on cops in comparison to the to the George Flloyd riots. Also to be fair, Dorner although becoming a martyr, became more of a mascot against Police corruption as oppoed to that of a martyr who would galvanise a mass movement.
>Dorner and Bushnell it makes a lot more sense to do a suicide mission because of their present involvement with an organization they're fighting against.That's fair, but the difference between what makes Bushnell's sacrifice more potent is that it was done in conjunction with the October 7th attacks. Bushnell's sacrifice gave a clear moral position on which side western civillians ought to take.
>>2240940>conflating the banning of tiktok with bushnell>that would've happened with or without him, though.<not realising Aaron Bushnell's death was posted all over tiktokAs I have said, repeatedly, Bushnell's death was a major part in the masses being educated on Palestine and then organising and spreading more info/ organising as a result.
This is more evidence of you doing nothing but arguing against strawmen that you've built in your mind.
>you know the first mental health institutions were led by christians and known for their cruelty? look at you, thinking that those disagreeing with your retarded ideas have to be instutionalized. it's just one indicator after the other. You put words in other peoples mouths, consistently strawman your other opponents positions, derail threads, have joked about SA, projected your own insecurities onto others, and can only deflect and insult people when presented evidence of your delusional world view. There have been plenty of posters on this board that I disagree with, Sabo poster being one, but at least I'm able to have civil conversations with them. You on the other hand tried to derail a thread meant for debate by flinging shit and seething. Hell, I didn't even start this whole argument- you did. Again, you can slander me as a Nardonik, a Christian, A kurdophile, a Liberal, A debate bro, etc- but the only one of us who is acting like a sociopath in this server is you.
Furthermore, I haven't even called for you to be locked up or instutionalised, which is more evidence of you putting words in other people's mouths. So I'll put this in words you can understand:
Log off and book a meeting with a therapist and/or psychiatrist.
>>2251587And It bears repeating, that there was plenty of awareness of the situation with Gaza. There is no more "awareness" to be raised when there is a constant flow of audiovisual materials and straight out admissions live for anyone to see.
These acts of self sacrifice could not garner any more awareness, but they could garner pity, compassion. An emotional compromise to lower whatever barrier prevents one from engaging with the evidence of genocide, for those susceptible. And that was a failure as well.
Turns out that if a society considers a daily HD stream of war, privation and genocide merely entertainment… your stupid little self immolation gets filed the same.
>>2251593>Turns out that if a society considers a daily HD stream of war, privation and genocide merely entertainment… your stupid little self immolation gets filed the same.This is why you could make the argument that the endless videos of dead children coming out of Gaza that you'd see posted to IG and TikTok actually HURT the Palestinian cause. Why? Because it desensitizes the general public and takes away the sense of urgency.
The "bread and circuses" method of keeping the public passive doesn't work anymore. Now, you flood them with an endless stream of information so they have no idea what's serious enough to act on and what's not.
>>2251387the main problem with palestine protests is that they're a single issue thing like abortion. now, let me be very, very clear what I mean before someone acusses me whatver -ism. for the broad specter of western society, these are
single issues. those
articulating the protest might have the best anti-imperialist or anti-patriarchal line you can think of, but you will
never get the
mass to understand these as part of the totality of capitalism-imperialism while they still live relatively comfortable lives in the west. so what, some two million get slaughtered and expelled, big deal, we barely feel the war here. to add salt to the wound, entryism with palestine just
does not work. you always get more university anti-totalitarian liboid anarchists instead of anti-imperialist communists from palestine entryism.
>>2240496>>2240516truthnuke
but pro-palestine movement is too sentimental for its own sake and they are not willing to hear words of truth. When will the retards understand being moralist doesn't do shit to the Israeli nazis. They see it as stupidity and weakness and it emboldens them.
>>2256934>Combine this with Abbas stating he no longer wants to keep this conflict going and is demanding Fatah lay down its arms.Well shit, hopefully. Were the PA not fighting Hamas in the west bank last year, before Israel took the lead? Hopefully the PA gets completely absorbed into the occupation, or wahtever bullshit org the USA makes up to manage Gaza.
So that there is no pretext of peaceful resistance anymore.
>>2240496>Now that the dust has settled, did his grand act of self-sacrifice for the Palestinian people truly accomplish anything?Self immolation is obviously not a viable strategy to use on a mass scale, but if an individual does it you have to respect them as hardcore. Conservatives in the US would never do anything like that. He is now one among a line of martyrs in the history of resistance to imperial barbarism worldwide.
<"muh organization"Nobody on here fucking disagrees with this. It's far more preferable that people stay alive to resist in an organization, but you people forget that the right optics under the right circumstances can provide a lot of soft power for a cause.
>Did it do anything to mobilize the American people to stop the genocide in Palestine? Did it help the Palestinian resistance in any way?Like what some of the other posters on here have said, it gave Palestinians hope and showed that america isn't totally full of cackling monsters. More importantly, it forced the narrative around Israel to be shaped in a way where the US has ramped up domestic repression. Fucking
Ivy League college kids are getting arrested with open collusion between the colleges and the security state. If any of you cared about "Accelerationism", this is it.
53% OF THE US NOW HAVE A NEGATIVE OPINION OF ISRAELhttps://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2025/04/08/how-americans-view-israel-and-the-israel-hamas-war-at-the-start-of-trumps-second-term/<inb4 "muh intentions"So fucking what?! Sure a lot of the Right wingers among them might view it from a nihilistic angle of wishing they'd just kill each other already and do it without us needing to pay a cent or anything. They're mostly at odds with the rest of their own damn movement. Let them deal with their own contradictions. The Feds are at odds with half the country, who think we're actually correct for once. We should own it and force that as leverage against the Feds. After all, this would count as one of those "subjective revolutionary conditions" Lenin wrote about.
>Or was it a vain, self-righteous act that served zero purpose other than to make this guy a martyr?I'm certain that narcissists are not the kind of people who would kill themselves by fire out of a sense of self-righteousness. I promise you there are waaay easier ways one can get clout while physically preserving that precious ego of theirs.
>>2240667>>2240678You know, when you fight a war, you need people to occupy the territory you advance into. You yourself even allude that the US prefers proxies fighting and occupying territory over going in themselves, and yet they still had to deploy troops in Iraq and Afghanistan.
>>2240682Didn't know of the others. Looked them up. Alright I'll give you that. They should be appreciated into narrative as well.
>>2241061>>2241065You're only saying this because it doesn't have the veneer of history or because a Burger did it.
>>2241263Okay? Abolitionism in the Antebellum period was only ever literally spectacular displays of moralism. It wasn't until Union soldiers had to physically go into the South and see the plantations for themselves to really force the Union to end the Civil War with Abolitionism as a required condition. The work of those early, moralistic Abolitionists were still good and contributed to establishing the narrative.
>>2251633Are you fucking delusional?! The other half of the country that is either truly apathetic or actively supports Israel's genocide simply don't want to think about the dead children AT ALL. Posts like that force people to be reminded that it's happening.
>>2240516>>2240885>>2240699You know? A lot of Right wingers in Israel have this particular quirk where they look down on soldiers in the IDF for dying, especially at the hands of a Palestinian. They pretty much consider you a sucker. At least the US military, as monstrous as it may be, considers their dead heroes.
You people stress the need for organization and stress how actionable violence beats protests in making real change, but how the fuck do you people think anyone ever gets driven enough to make that leap from nothing? You need a story for your cause and heroes to go along with it. Self-interest
alone doesn't get people to risk life and limb for increasingly intangible ideas like "workplace democracy" or "ending genocide" in the face of a jackboot coming at you.
>>2242251Pay no mind to the so-called "scientific" socialists. They're too addicted to their truth that humans are just bloodless, self-interested machines who only can only be driven by machinations beyond their control that we merely need to challenge with organizations that just work because they're organizations. No sir, once we all pack ourselves into those organizations, the work will be done on its own.
>>2257141>You need a story for your cause and heroes to go along with it. We are Marxists. We have a scientific understanding of history. We know masses create history and not individuals great men or heros. We are not narodniks. You should take down that flag if you're going to be retarded. The masses never act upon a hero's signal to action because those are not the historical forces that drive the masses to action. Thinking anything else is true is putting the movement in the year 1850.
We have our tradition to uphold and do not need to venerate performative political actors to attract liberal academics or sentimental petty-bourgeois in our ranks.
>>2257173The people you posted in that pic were revolutionary leaders who's contributions to the movement both theoretical and practical were so monumentous that they directly effected the material existence of literal hundreds of millions of people.
They didn't just kill themselves to bring attention to an issue lmao
>>2257163>We are Marxists. We have a scientific understanding of history. We know masses create history and not individuals great men or heros. We are not narodniks.The Right-Narodniks were bad because, for all their waxing poetic about the idyllic peasant village, they had zero faith whatsoever in the Peasants' revolutionary potential. Venerating individuals for their actions is not that.
>You should take down that flag if you're going to be retarded.Maybe you should sign up in the IDF what with how much water you're carrying for them.
>The masses never act upon a hero's signal to action because those are not the historical forces that drive the masses to action.History's a fucking story. The Socialist tradition is an international phenomenon with a basic core of principles that act as a throughline everywhere it has existed. Even in Marxism there is an implied moral framework. To his credit, at face value, a lot of the writing published in his time was pretty amoral, so how the fuck do you expect to get the masses riled up enough to change their conditions without admitting that there is a level of understanding a "right" and "wrong" and to be willing to relate to one another enough to risk using violence to overthrow the entire state of things? The history of Socialism is a story of mythic proportions.
>>2257207literally marvelizing history holy shit
just stop and think about what you are saying and if you can't i'll return in a couple of hours to explain it to you
>>2257212I hate to tell you this, but moral codes and sentimentalism, on top of condensing history into a mythos, even if it's done for cynical reasons, are the things that give people solidarity between one another, and solidarity is the only way you're gonna get most of the masses animated into action. These movements only begin by the work of a core of relatively few people before they snowball into mass movements. The (Left-) Libertarian traditions are right to point out the many times that this led to undemocratic movements and governments, but if you understand class, class-conflict, how it's reproduced in Capitalism and that the solution is to abolish it, you're part of "the vanguard", whether you like it or not. The question is what kind of movement you build with that understanding.
You talk as if to imply you're a Marxist, but you're little better than the inverse of a Right-Narodnik. Yes, the Right-Narodniks were stupid for being elitist radicals, but when you tell us that the masses need to be driven by "historical forces" to bring about Socialism, you may as well say god or magic or destiny will do it. If all the working class needed was "historical forces", they wouldn't need Marxism. The Chartist movement showed us working people are clearly capable of acting as a political force of their own.
>>2257141>He is now one among a line of martyrs in the history of resistanceWho attacked him for his resistance? Do you think Jesus put himself on that cross lol
>it forced the narrative around Israel to be shaped in a way where the US has ramped up domestic repressionWho repressed him?
>If any of you cared about "Accelerationism", this is itWhen I hear people talk of what opened their eyes, they mention the countless images of wounded kids on social media they see each day.
>how the fuck do you people think anyone ever gets driven enough to make that leap from nothing? You need a story for your cause and heroes to go along with itMy role models that I want to emulate are not anarchists who killed themself to own the libs. My heroes are still alive 🐺
>Self-interest alone doesn't get people to risk life and limbYeah we need collective-interest, you know, the thing which anarchists like this guy literally would work with nazis to fight against:
>CrimethInc, an anarchist collective, claimed that Bushnell contacted it shortly before his death, asking it to "make sure that the footage is preserved and reported on".These anti-Stalinists collaborated with fascists who literally did the holocaust to overthrow Ukraine's pro-Russia president for NATO finance imperialists, and then anarchists hilariously tried to argue "we're just decentralized individuals with no power, actually anarchism has no ability to affect historical change! We are WEAK and could NEVER BE REVOLUTIONARY!!!"
https://crimethinc.com/2022/02/15/war-and-anarchists-anti-authoritarian-perspectives-in-ukraine >>2257424I forgive you. You apologized on an imageboard of all things. That's gotta count for something.
[hugs]>>2257430Dude, what is you guys' deal? Seriously. You all just sound like assholes and tryhards. I need you to be honest with me, is all of this animus because he might have been an Anarchist? So what? Plenty of self-proclaimed MLs on this board have proven to me that it's one of the most degenerated sect in the US right now. There are fucking Neo-Kautskyists more advanced than a lot of you guys.
And when did I ever bring up crimethinc? You don't even make sense.
<crimethinc are Anarchist assets of the US, which is why they platformed a guy who protested against Israel, whose greatest ally in the whole wide world is the USI don't know how you can explain this besides saying it was an attempt to discredit the movement, but if you actually believe that, you certainly lost the plot.
>These anti-Stalinists collaborated with fascists who literally did the holocaust to overthrow Ukraine's pro-Russia president for NATO finance imperialistsBig if true, but you gotta prove that. Besides that, why defend Russia? Even if we actually managed to get the US to commit to an arms embargo or cut off ties completely or whatever, there's still a slim, but greater-than-zero chance that Israel could scrape by with improved relations with Russia
https://www.chathamhouse.org/2025/03/israels-complicated-strategic-relationship-russia-could-strengthen-trump-white-house >>2240496The idea was probably to mimic the arab spring self immolation that caused immense chaos in the middle east. Problem is that americans are well fed
too well if you ask me and have jobs.
Unique IPs: 83