As a Serb, I am sick and tired of explaining to Westerners that no, Croats and Bosniaks and Kosovar Albanians were not the "good guys" of the 90s wars.
But also as a Serb, I am sick and tired of the perpetual reactionary victimhood and chauvinism of Serbs regarding the wars.
No, as a communist I say FUCK NATO, but also it's a bit like being German and complaining about the Allied bombing of Germany in WW2. Nobody gives a shit. I guess people give a shit about Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but I'd argue that's thanks to Japan's cultural capital being greater than the knowledge of Westerners regarding what Imperial Japan did.
Anyway, nobody was fighting to save Tito's socialism (the revisionists/opportunists already took over by that point, some of the younger ones still in politics today), nor was anybody fighting to preserve Yugoslavia. It was a chain of reactionary wars start to finish. And it could have been prevented. People died for what? Nothing.
182 posts and 12 image replies omitted.>>2287788you are correct but he will call you a fascist to virtue signal,the serbian left has this dumb titoist line were they think anti nationalism is just adopting positions of the opposing nationalists.
"Montenegrin" as a separate nationality is a meme identity that exists only to uphold the apartheid in the little mafia narco state its rooted in nothing and only bipolar metal cases from cetinje belive in it.
>We are all Yugoslavs"Стари сад се види, сад се враћа
с' ким' сте хтјели да будете браћа…."
>>2288592Touche
>>2288594"Macedonians" north of Skopje are Serbs while south of it are Bulgarians
>>2288592>adopting positions of the opposing nationalistsHow is being pro-Yugoslav adopting the positions of opposing nationalists
You have literally absorbed reactionary anti-communist neo-chetnik propaganda, you realize that right
>>2264230>As a Serb, I am sick and tired of explaining to Westerners that no, Croats and Bosniaks and Kosovar Albanians were not the "good guys" of the 90s wars.I just got done reading Michael Parenti's book
To Kill A Nation and I see the exact same imperialist playbook being used in the Ukraine conflict to justify NATO interventionism. To me, even if there were no "good guys" in the 90s wars, there was clearly a bad guy: NATO, stoking the conflict to destroy a nation and turn it into a balkanized, internally divided, privatized, deregulated, source of cheap labor for imperialism. Have you read Parenti's book, and as a local can you speak on its accuracy?
Embeded is the audiobook
>>2289291Not the person you are replying too but positions such as that Serbs were opressors, Montenegrins, Macedonians and Bosniaks are 3 different people and I've also seen some serb titoids claim that kosovo is albania, though that is rare disease
Also, what's the point of brotherhood and unity with people who hate you? It was only Serbs and Slovenians which fought to protect Yugoslavia from Germany, while Croats were one actively helping Wehrmacht (giving away army positions etc etc)
>>2289291>You have literally absorbed reactionary anti-communist……shitting on the dead end failed project of yugomeme nationalism is not anti communism though.
When titoists pretend to be anti nationalist they never do it from a internationalist position but they almost always do it by adopting the nationalist positions from others repeating their propaganda and arguments back,you can pretend that its all propaganda of the big chetnik(tm) conspiracy to cope about it but it dosent change reality that majority in fact behave like this.
Every chauvinist Montenegrin from beograd and 20th generation vojvodjanin hides behind that flag when he writes his poison,the chetniks dont have to do a thing.
Its why yugo flags today can only be found in liberal civic circles or in ngo operations,they know what the flag signals.
>>2289324>I've also seen some serb titoids claim that kosovo is albania, though that is rare diseaseYou know Enver Hoxha, the funny meme Albanian bunker guy popular on leftypol? I heard he had some takes. One English-translation one I found on marxists.org:
<Tito asked me what I thought about Kosova. 'Kosova and the other regions of Yugoslavia with an Albanian population,' I replied, 'are Albanian territory which the great powers unjustly tore away from Albania; they belong to Albania and should be returned to Albania. Now that we are two socialist countries the conditions exist for this problem to be solved correctly'. Tito said to me: 'I agree, this is what we desire, but for the moment we are unable to do anything because the Serbs do not understand such a thing'. 'If they don't understand it today,' I said, 'they will have to understand it tomorrow'."Damn.
<However, we for our part, without ever interfering in the internal affairs of Yugoslavia, will never cease supporting the rights of our brothers of the one blood, living in Yugoslavia and will raise our voice against the terror, the policy of extermination, which the Tito-Rankovich clique is pursuing towards them." Finally, I told Comrade Stalin that we had written him a letter about this problem.Holy shit. He name-dropped Ranković. The Serbian "hero" famous for his terror policies against Albanians in Kosovo.
https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hoxha/works/stalin/meet3.htmGod being a Serbian communist fucking SUCKS
>>2289438titos opinions arent gospel in fact many were wrong.
>God being a Serbian communist fucking SUCKSthats why there arent any today until conditions change to make it a viable position again in the public.
>>2286987The Montenegrin part is not really nationalist schizophrenia, historically they considered themselves Serb and even today many do.
>>2287788>Try telling that to people who would slaughter us again in a heartbeat. You cannot force brotherhood with people who view you as eternal enemy. Brotherhood and unity is what led to Serbs being gone in Dalmatia, Krajina, Sarajevo and near extinction in Kosovo. So please spare me of bsHow can you say that and call yourself a leftist? That is entirely a nationalist statement. It uses the same logic behind calling Serbs genociders and slaughters.
>>2288592>you are correct but he will call you a fascist to virtue signal,the serbian left has this dumb titoist line were they think anti nationalism is just adopting positions of the opposing nationalists.And you are just adopting positions of your nationalists.
>"Стари сад се види, сад се враћа>с' ким' сте хтјели да будете браћа…."The usage of that line triggers me so much. For the people not speaking Serbian, it's something like "Dad, now you see, now you recall, with who you wanted to be brothers," (referring to Yugoslavia in WWII)
That line is nationalism distilled. It says that the other nations were like that in the past, in the present so they are like that by nature.
And the song is not supposed to be an endorsement of nationalism. The song is a sequel of the original band's Dan Republike, where the dad cries about the youth not caring about Yugoslavism/Communism. Like in the first song where the son is being cynical about his war stories and stuff, in this song he is cynical about Yugoslavia as a whole.
I don't know about Nele's personal views, but the rest of the album is generally anti-nationalist in its messages, so that makes the song being nationalistic even less likely.
>>2289324>Also, what's the point of brotherhood and unity with people who hate you? It was only Serbs and Slovenians which fought to protect Yugoslavia from Germany, while Croats were one actively helping Wehrmacht (giving away army positions etc etc)Literally just nationalist myths. Though I've also seen nationalists ignoring the fact that Serb Partisans existed at all, and there's also that retarded song thing saying "Tito, Serbs are lying to you, they love Draza" which Serb nationalists think makes Serbs look based? There's also a version where a less ambiguous collaborator is mentioned, not sure if it was Ljotic or Nedic.
>>2289371>Its why yugo flags today can only be found in liberal civic circles or in ngo operations,they know what the flag signals.You're just schizoposting now.
>>2289446Maybe it was like that in the beginning but later both sides wanted to obtain as much ethnically clean land as possible to merge into their postwar states.
>>2289611If Croats have self determination, why don't Croatian Serbs have it? Self determination is a meme because the line is always arbitrary.
>>2289764>The Montenegrin part is not really nationalist schizophrenia, historically they considered themselves Serb and even today many do.I meant, whether this or that group are Serbs or something else, is ultimately pointless, it's like being considered white for Americans, the vague shifting lines of nationality/race are an instrument of reaction in this context. Why were Marx/Engels critical of Pan-Slavism? It was promoted by Tsarist Russia. We know today that there had been Russian chauvinism even in the USSR, this isn't even controversial on leftypol. Well, Belorussians and Ukrainians were treated as Schrodinger's Russians. One moment, they are Russian, the next moment, they are not Russian. Pan-Slavism in Russia in practice turned into a disguise for this reactionary instrument. That is exactly what happened with Pan-Serbism and Pan-Bulgarism. My own great grandparents on one side were victims of simultaneously being Serbs and Bulgarians. It's about like when Americans ask "are Italians white?". Why does the state of whiteness matter to you Mr. American?
>>2290239>umm sweaty just get a job and you'll stop being a racist chudthis is like when stupid whores think getting laid will stop chuds being racist
it's a cognitive bias
>>2290246Are you even a materialist
I was a "libertarian" when I was a teenager who believed Trump would stop America's wars, guess what I am now
>>2290251Materialism is when people change based on their material circumstances
I changed based on my material circumstances. I saw that Trump is a liar, yes, but more importantly, I realized that the entire US apparatus is militaristic, and why, because the US is the number 1 imperialist in the world, because the dollar is the literal reserve currency of the world, the US can not only afford to be militaristic, it has to be militaristic to protect its status. And then I got a job and was radicalized by factory despotism as Bordiga calls it. Or as Engels writes
<The automatic machinery of the big factory is much more despotic than the small capitalists who employ workers ever have been. At least with regard to the hours of work one may write upon the portals of these factories: Lasciate ogni autonomia, voi che entrate! [Leave, ye that enter in, all autonomy behind!]https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/10/authority.htmThat was exactly my first job. A big factory with huge machines dictating the pace and intensity of my labor. It was a learning experience.
Do you know what materialism is?
>>2341607This is how I feel about the entire USSR in general.
They should have preserved local cultures while maintaining a single nationhood, like China.
Culture can exist irrespective of nationhood, but nationhood, in the legal sense, binds people and restrains them, both materially and culturally. It's what nations were invented to do in the first place.
By preserving nationhood, the USSR unwittingly empowered Great Russian chauvinism, while the smaller republics experienced their nationhood as shackling rather than liberatory, despite all the affirmative action. Thus, when the USSR fell apart, Russia became "the main character", while the republics had no other identities to accept than that of "ungrateful children".
And now, in post soviet times, to the average citizen, sovereign nationhood is more of a curse than a boon: as newly impoverished third worlders, their weak passports bind them to their country of origin, and make them shattered and weak against the global imperialist system of economic exploitation.
Both Yugoslavia and the USSR, have long since died, away in the mist of time, their rotting carcasses, have decomposed. The ideals they represented, buried with them, anyone who lived through, and supported it, have dementia, their monumental collapse, as iconic as their existence, and a testament to their complete failure. In the following decades since, the world of the 20th century disappeared, just like the memory and reason of their, now senile, supporters. they are cursed, anyone who tries to follow them will meet their grim fate, so I advise everyone to keep away, and ignore them.
>>2341859The level of violence which I would inflict on the reality-denying Serb chauvinists would make the Bolsheviks look like hippies
These "people" are on the level of Holocaust deniers, the difference with Holocaust deniers being, they are fully and totally normalized in Serbian society
>>2354263ni manje ni vise nego lenjin lol,nisi ti ni l od lenjina.On je znao gde je,sta je i u potpunosti je razumeo politiku oko sebe i svoj narod,ti pak nemas pojma samo si odrodjeni degen sa liboskim kompleksima.
Proslavim ti mater kurvu kurcem picketino
>>2355458>svoj narodHahahaha
Njegov "narod" su bili seljaci sa tendencijom sitne buržoazije sa čim su se Boljševici borili protiv
Jedino fašista, simpatizer sitne buržoazije, može da fetišizira takav "narod"
Bićeš izbrisan! Kajaćeš se, ali milosti neće biti, crvu bedni!
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